We recovered alcoholics are not so much brothers in virtue as we are brothers in our defects, and in our common strivings to overcome them.
AS BILL SEES IT, p. 167
The identification that one alcoholic has with another is mysterious, spiritualalmost incomprehensible. But it is there. I "feel" it. Today I feel that I can help people and that they can help me.
It is a new and exciting feeling for me to care for someone; to care what they are feeling, hoping for, praying for; to know their sadness, joy, horror, sorrow, grief; to want to share those feelings so that someone can have relief. I never knew how to do thisor how to try. I never even cared. The Fellowship of A.A., and God, are teaching me how to care about others.
Married 30+ years and these are new feelings she has for other drunks in program???? WTF? I thought WE had those things! More cult like messages as far as I am concerned. Drunks supporting drunks. Just another reason to go out drinking, go back to a meeting and all is forgiven? I have a problem with this.
-- Edited by Donehurting on Friday 20th of April 2018 05:12:49 AM
el-cee said
Apr 20, 2018
Are you jealous of the connections she may be making in AA? Are you resentful that she has the chance to change her life and thinking from despair and isolation towards the promises the program offer?
Is so, of course you do, its totally understandable. This disease takes so much from us and leaves anger, resentments, hate, bitterness etc all the negatives in its place.
Whats the alternative though for you and your wife? To continue on the merrygoround that hasn't worked for thirty years?
Shes changing, there's hope in her life, a new way to think, she deserves that. My son is an alcoholic, just like your life and I pray for those connections and hope your wife has in her life right now and despite the big giant list of things alcoholics do wrong, they still deserve it and always will whether you like it or not.
What about you though? Your anger, resentment, misery are all very enjoyable of course until they are no longer and when your ready to change your own life from darkness to light then this program is there for you. The same connections, hope, happiness, joy, clarity are waiting on you just as they are for your wife. This life is no rehearsal, its too short to be stuck in the pain.
hotrod said
Apr 20, 2018
Hello Donehurting it is evident that you have been badly hurt by the dreadful disease of alcoholism. Posting disparaging remarks about the AA literature as well as the fellowship of AA on this Message Board is counterproductive to the principles on which this Board was established (by a member of AA) .This negative message about the AA organization does send an inappropriate message about the Worldwide AA program that has helped millions gain sobriety.. In fact our own program of Alanon has founded on many of the AA principles and has been helpful for many.
I attended several AA meetings, listened with an open mind read the literature in order to gain understanding of the program of recovery . If you cannot accept the basic concept upon which alanon and AA were founded, you might post your disagreement to the AA side of this board where the AA members can address your issues.
I also would like to suggest that you obtain an alanon daily reader such as the Courage to Change or the One day at a Time in alanon or How Alanon Works to help you to begin to understand the basic concepts
Dutchy said
Apr 20, 2018
Hi Donehurting,
I completely understand why you are so angry and hurt. My husband does the same. Spends time on his phone all the time, laughing with his AA friends and talking to them more than me!
I have a feeling that you may be interpreting these feelings she has for her AA friends wrong (I apologise if I am wrong). It's very hard for an outsider to understand what the alcoholic goes through and what sobriety brings. The feelings she has for her AA group and friends is not the same as her feelings for you even though the are named the same, they come from a different motivation.
She is supported and supports her friends in AA, together they all want sobriety, a new clean life and they are all suffering because of it and they are going to recognise new feelings which are similar but different from feelings for a loved one.
As a recovered anorexic myself, no one will ever understand the horror that went on in mind about food and exercise. Not my parents, not my husband, no one. I loved each and every on of them but my group at the anorexic clinic knew the daily fights I went through with the voice in my head that didn't want to eat, wanted to eat, wanted to binge, desperate to exercise and you work together and it forms a bond of very close friends. New feelings will resurface which have either never been experienced by the person or which have been suppressed due to the disease.
These feelings all have the same name but please don't confuse them as the feelings with the same name that she has for you. It's completely different. Camaraderie is not love. I hope I make sense. (((hugs)))
Lyne said
Apr 20, 2018
Welcome DoneHurting: I can also relate to the pain, anger, and resentment your A has caused you. My A has been sober one year, but is just thinking about AA for herself. She can't feel, lacks emotion, and if AA can help her regain or have for the first time, emotions, I will welcome it. And I may be last on the list to receive these things, but she has to start somewhere.
In alanon I am learning to detach without amputation, I am healing, getting stronger, have much less anger and improved self-esteem. It's a lot of work but we are a group of people who understand the damage of alcohol. Maybe you can give alanon a try, Lyne
Iamhere said
Apr 20, 2018
My personal experience - I would rather have my A(s) abstaining from substances, trying recovery, hanging with better people and being snippy with me that have them drunk, high, wrecking cars, going to jail, etc.
I am reminded that our program suggests that we help those who reach out for help and want to get better. We are of no service to those who don't want recovery and today, because I am different/better, I don't J-A-D-E when battling unhealthy people and thinking. For me to get better, I had to stop thinking I knew better than most and I needed to stop fighting everything and everyone to get 'my way' with 'my will'.
DoneHurting - there are many forums you can join that spend their time bashing AA, the Alcoholic and calling it a cult. I am hopeful that for no reason but common respect, you'd refrain from that here. We do understand your anger at the disease and the diseased. You are not alone or unique. May you find your path to a better place.
Donehurting said
Apr 20, 2018
Lyne wrote:
Welcome DoneHurting: I can also relate to the pain, anger, and resentment your A has caused you. My A has been sober one year, but is just thinking about AA for herself. She can't feel, lacks emotion, and if AA can help her regain or have for the first time, emotions, I will welcome it. And I may be last on the list to receive these things, but she has to start somewhere.
In alanon I am learning to detach without amputation, I am healing, getting stronger, have much less anger and improved self-esteem. It's a lot of work but we are a group of people who understand the damage of alcohol. Maybe you can give alanon a try, Lyne
Please explain what you mean by "detach without amputation".
Thanks.
Bo said
Apr 20, 2018
While this may not be directly on point, I think it's related -- one of the things I always liked very much about the fellowship of alanon (approved meetings, conference approved literature, the various books of alanon) is that it was about alanon and only alanon. In the opening of many meetings I've attended, they actually speak to that...it actually says, "The Al-Anon program is based on the Twelve Steps (adapted from Alcoholics Anonymous)..." -- and "the only qualification for you to be here is if someone's drinking bothers you." -- and "A word to members of other fellowships, such as AA, we ask that you focus your comments to Al-Anon and the Al-Anon approach to the family illness..." -- and "Please remember that in Al-Anon we keep the focus on us...this is your program...this is your recovery...not the alcoholic's..."
I always felt this was important because while AA and alanon might be related in certain respects and aspects, and there can be a perceived certain commonality that brings each respective of its members into the rooms...each is exclusive to their respective recovery. In alanon, we are to keep the focus on us, on our recovery, on us getting better, on us getting healthy. Yes, it involves having compassion, acceptance, and a certain understand of the alcoholic and the disease of alcoholism -- and that the alcoholic has a disease -- but we do that while focusing on ourselves and what we need to do to get better...get better from our disease.
Perhaps as it relates to this topic, I have an understanding that for the alcoholic who truly wants to get better, who finds recovery...the most important thing in the world is what they need to do every, sometimes every minute of every single day, to not drink. I get that. Their sobriety, at a certain point, for a certain period of time, sometimes has to come before anything else. Sometimes it is not more important than anything else...sometimes it is the only thing. I get that. I've seen that. While it might be difficult, even painful, to experience, it is sometimes necessary. Recovery is a not a destination...it is a journey.
One day at a time.
serenity47 said
Apr 21, 2018
In early recovery, my AD was very focused on meetings, fellow AA members, sponsors etc which left little time for us it seemed. On infrequent visits , as we lived a 1000 miles apart at the time, she would go to meetings while I was there sometimes more often because I was there lol. My first instinct was to feel hurt, neglected, insignificant etc. I had difficulty understanding how strangers could understand her better then me. But then reality kicked in..... what a tremendous blessing this was that she had these other members that she could rely on for support and guidance. The kind of support and guidance that I could not give her. God knows I tried and it didn't work!! Fellow program members are what helps to keep her sober and honest and my feelings about any of it are just that FEELINGS. They are not facts, it doesn't mean she doesn't love her family or care about us. It means she values her sobriety above anything else and when that is happening I will remain eternally grateful. I had a choice to make and that choice was to get right with myself and what I was feeling. That wasn't going to come from any actions that my qualifier did or didn't do it only happened when I seriously took the focus off of her and put the spot light on my own life.
Donehurting said
Apr 21, 2018
Sorry to be contentious. The message she is getting from her AA friends is that moderate drinking is not only ok but it is expected! She says all the long term AA members all drink but don't admit it. I think it's true.
Bo - you posted what they say at the beginning of the Al-Anon meetings... they also say to be a member you cant have any other affiliations. That is a cult-like message. Also, the program is for us to focus on us. Well, we all live in an interdependent society. We all can't do everything. That's why there is "division of labor". We do depend on one another especially in a close relationship like marriage. I pay the bills and you do the shopping. I do the laundry and you clean the house. You pick up the kids and I bring them to soccer. That's interdependency and that makes it all work. So once again, I do not get the "focus is on me" message. It seems quite selfish. It also is strange that drunks have to depend on drunks to get sober. I think it would be better to surround yourself with healthy people, not broken ones to fix yourself. Another thing I don't "get".
I don't mean to bash AA or Al-Anon. The deeper I get into the program, the more problems I see.
-- Edited by Donehurting on Saturday 21st of April 2018 07:20:55 AM
hotrod said
Apr 21, 2018
Donehurting many of your statements about AA are incorrect. The statement at the opening of the alanon meeting suggests that although you may be a member of any other group, that we keep the focus on alanon issues and alanon recovery tools so as to not become sidetracked (as we are now doing) into justifying ourselves . No one is forced to share or keep attending. Please search out alanon and AA open meetings and see for yourself.
I ask the double winners on this board address the issues such as most AA members drink and encourage drinking. It may be that the meetings suggest that many people are not alcoholics and can drink without issues but that once a person's drinking goes over the invisible line they can never safely drink.
Iamhere said
Apr 21, 2018
I've been sober in AA for more than 30 years. Never, in any meeting I've attended all across the USA has there been discussions regarding social/moderate/reduced drinking. Every meeting I've attended suggests no alcohol or mind-altering substances of any kind one day at a time (prescription medications are the exception).
There are other recovery programs which I have no knowledge of, so can't speak to if they suggest moderate consumption is acceptable.
Just as with Al-Anon, there is an opening - called a preamble which you can google to read for yourself. Just as with Al-Anon, the preference is to use Conference Approved Literature and stay focused on topics as they relate to the disease of or the recovery from. Just as with Al-Anon, we share Experience, Strength and Hope by sharing what it was like, what happened and what it's like now.
Both AA & Al-Anon have traditions, principles and steps. AA came first, as did it's steps. Al-Anon uses the same steps with a few exceptions. Both suggest refraining from discussion of outside issues, topics, etc. Both suggest no alignment with any sect, denomination, politics, organization and institutions. Both suggest members stayed focused on why they are present.
I select meetings I attend based on service and my own need. I hang with many members, ranging in sober time of one day to fifty years. I am quite comfortable in saying those with long term sobriety do not take an occasional drink. If they do, they return and share and start over. Might there be exceptions? Possibly. However, I am also quite certain that the isms would show through loud and proud as they are not hard to spot, especially at AA meetings/events.
What I do know is that both programs worked best for me when I remember HOW it works - Honesty, Open-mindedness and Willingness.
There are no restrictions on outside affiliations whatsoever in either fellowship. It is just suggested those are left at the door. There is no brain-washing of anyone in either program, therefore 'cult' is not a proper label. In AA, the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking; one is not kicked out if they fail, relapse, slip, etc. There are no dues or fees for membership in either; each is self-supporting through contributions.
From personal experience, Al-Anon is far more structured and disciplined. There are AA meetings, Al-Anon meetings and joint meetings in my community as there are tons of double-winners (members of both) as well as many long-term marriages with a member in one/both.
In my own marriage, we have a very lopsided split of duty. It's not necessarily because of the disease but because of health issues/concerns. I take care of all the inside - laundry, shopping, cooking, cleaning, bills, taxes, etc. and my AH takes care of the outside. We each service/wash/manage our own vehicles. I'm 100% perfect with this and have never expected an even distribution of duties/chores. We are both retired and I am thrilled to have many chores that keep me active, young, of service to my family and beyond. This 'attitude' I share about is not how I always was. I was very bitter when life/family became extremely dysfunctional around here because of the disease. It is in Al-Anon that I came to accept life is what it is, and it's my job to pick it apart and be bitter, angry and miserable or to embrace it, enjoy it and just do my best one day at a time.
-- Edited by Iamhere on Saturday 21st of April 2018 11:58:20 AM
el-cee said
Apr 21, 2018
The whole 'leave outside affiliations at the door' is to make us all equal. It's so that lawyers, teachers, bin men, Catholics, Muslims, black, white can feel welcome in alanon and aa. It's about equality and unity. So that we can all work on our common problems together. It's actually a very beautiful wise part of the program and I can't think of anywhere in the world that offers that level of connection with another human being. Its so sad your looking for the differences instead of the similarities. I hope you get a chance to open your mind and heart to this. I would put money on it that you would not regret it.
Bo said
Apr 21, 2018
Donehurting wrote:
Sorry to be contentious. The message she is getting from her AA friends is that moderate drinking is not only ok but it is expected! She says all the long term AA members all drink but don't admit it. I think it's true.
Bo - you posted what they say at the beginning of the Al-Anon meetings... they also say to be a member you cant have any other affiliations. That is a cult-like message. Also, the program is for us to focus on us. Well, we all live in an interdependent society. We all can't do everything. That's why there is "division of labor". We do depend on one another especially in a close relationship like marriage. I pay the bills and you do the shopping. I do the laundry and you clean the house. You pick up the kids and I bring them to soccer. That's interdependency and that makes it all work. So once again, I do not get the "focus is on me" message. It seems quite selfish. It also is strange that drunks have to depend on drunks to get sober. I think it would be better to surround yourself with healthy people, not broken ones to fix yourself. Another thing I don't "get".
I don't mean to bash AA or Al-Anon. The deeper I get into the program, the more problems I see.
-- Edited by Donehurting on Saturday 21st of April 2018 07:20:55 AM
DH, some of the things you are saying, whether you have heard them or are inferring them, or whatever else may be going on here -- are, in all due respect -- incorrect. AA does not endorse, condone, support, or anything else of the like, moderate drinking for those who are alcoholics. In all due respect, your wife, if she is attending approved AA meetings, is not getting a message that moderate drinking is OK and expected for alcoholics and members of AA. Absolutely not. Period. People who go to AA go there because they made a decision -- a decision to stop drinking, get clean and sober, and find recovery. AA and the people there supports them and that decision and helps them live that life. But it was the person's decision. If a person doesn't want to make that decision or live that way -- they can still go -- but AA doesn't make them or force them. It is still up to the person.
As far as the statement during the opening of alanon meetings -- it does not say that to be a member of alanon you can't have any other affiliations. What is says is that IF you are a member of another fellowship -- hence, it is allowed -- during the meeting, you are asked to keep the focus on alanon, the alanon program, and your recovery. The statement is so that alanon and recovery can work for you and not have you be distracted by other programs, principles, tools, etc. Alanon is not there to defend itself or justify itself. If you feel you already have an adequate, substantial, and clear understanding of alanon, and you don't feel it is for you, that's OK. It is also suggested that you attend several meetings before deciding whether or not it is for you. That too is up to you as well. Good luck.
Dutchy said
Apr 21, 2018
Donehurting - to divide chores in the house or parenting is not a dependency, it's a partnership. Teamwork. And even in teamwork and a partnership you have to be able to rely or depend on people but in a very different way. You are not losing your life for someone else's but you are keeping your life yours. You keep doing what you like and want and will get the chance to do so and enjoy it. Co-Dependency is not this.
I find it hard to believe that AA would say that drinking is expected. This is definitely not the message my husband is getting and when they do say they are either relapsing, have relapsed or have no intention of getting well.
In the end you can't make the diseased person better so it's better to look after yourself, live your life and be happy rather than being dragged down by the alcoholic. This sounds hard I know and I'm sorry. To me it sounds like she doesn't take her 'sobriety' seriously. It's up to you to decide what you want to do.
Jerry F said
Apr 21, 2018
Donehurting ...Mahalo for bringing this post. It is important and I find that I was in your position when I first got to recovery 40 years ago. My wife was an alcoholic/addict and it was her sponsor that in part recommended both programs in part because of my self centered holier/smarter than thou attitude which I kept on display for all at all times. As a newbie I sat and listened to the fellowships share their ESH with a programmed response always in my head after every share..."Bullsh-t, Bullsh-t, Bullsh-t" is what my mental emotional response would be until that no longer worked...I wasn't learning anything and it became uncomfortable including leaving and coming back and leaving. My spouse relapsed and the marriage and everything else went into shambles just as was being shared in the rooms time to time and I had to admit I didn't know anything about the disease of addiction and alcoholism and didn't even know that I didn't know. I came to describe my condition as being "dumb as a stick" so decided to participate positively rather than negatively...I was a mess on all levels however the fellowships (both) loved me unconditionally. I made Al-Anon my focus and didn't drink during the first 9 years in program and then listened to the evaluation of the in-patient nurse of my drinking (past) inventory assessment. "This person needs to be in inpatient care immediately or the next time he drinks he dies". I had learned about the progressive nature of the disease in the Al-Anon program and also that part of the progressive nature was relapsing...I also entered college to study and learn about the true nature of the chemical and the compulsion and progressive nature and the familial nature of my disease; it was generationally implanted and commenced its run in my life from the age of 9.
As you can see I made the decision to stop fighting the program and just listen with an open mind which is a suggestion that is made to us/me at the closing of every Al-Anon meeting along with a demand from my AA sponsorship "or else".
You arrived with all of your perceptions, ideas, practices, habits and behaviors which attempt to remain fixed. Mine did and I fought everything and everyone during the need to change and part of what I got from that was personal pain and consternation and an alcoholic/addict wife who continued to live and manage her own life in a manner I saw as insane...and I worked mental health.
I have one response that was soooo helpful to me that is used in both programs still today. "Keep coming back" which I add the "If you keep and open mind you will find help" statement to also.
We recovered alcoholics are not so much brothers in virtue as we are brothers in our defects, and in our common strivings to overcome them.
The identification that one alcoholic has with another is mysterious, spiritualalmost incomprehensible. But it is there. I "feel" it. Today I feel that I can help people and that they can help me.
It is a new and exciting feeling for me to care for someone; to care what they are feeling, hoping for, praying for; to know their sadness, joy, horror, sorrow, grief; to want to share those feelings so that someone can have relief. I never knew how to do thisor how to try. I never even cared. The Fellowship of A.A., and God, are teaching me how to care about others.
______________________________________________________________
Married 30+ years and these are new feelings she has for other drunks in program???? WTF? I thought WE had those things! More cult like messages as far as I am concerned. Drunks supporting drunks. Just another reason to go out drinking, go back to a meeting and all is forgiven? I have a problem with this.
-- Edited by Donehurting on Friday 20th of April 2018 05:12:49 AM
Is so, of course you do, its totally understandable. This disease takes so much from us and leaves anger, resentments, hate, bitterness etc all the negatives in its place.
Whats the alternative though for you and your wife? To continue on the merrygoround that hasn't worked for thirty years?
Shes changing, there's hope in her life, a new way to think, she deserves that. My son is an alcoholic, just like your life and I pray for those connections and hope your wife has in her life right now and despite the big giant list of things alcoholics do wrong, they still deserve it and always will whether you like it or not.
What about you though? Your anger, resentment, misery are all very enjoyable of course until they are no longer and when your ready to change your own life from darkness to light then this program is there for you. The same connections, hope, happiness, joy, clarity are waiting on you just as they are for your wife. This life is no rehearsal, its too short to be stuck in the pain.
Hello Donehurting it is evident that you have been badly hurt by the dreadful disease of alcoholism. Posting disparaging remarks about the AA literature as well as the fellowship of AA on this Message Board is counterproductive to the principles on which this Board was established (by a member of AA)
.This negative message about the AA organization does send an inappropriate message about the Worldwide AA program that has helped millions gain sobriety.. In fact our own program of Alanon has founded on many of the AA principles and has been helpful for many.
I attended several AA meetings, listened with an open mind read the literature in order to gain understanding of the program of recovery . If you cannot accept the basic concept upon which alanon and AA were founded, you might post your disagreement to the AA side of this board where the AA members can address your issues.
I also would like to suggest that you obtain an alanon daily reader such as the Courage to Change or the One day at a Time in alanon or How Alanon Works to help you to begin to understand the basic concepts
Hi Donehurting,
I completely understand why you are so angry and hurt. My husband does the same. Spends time on his phone all the time, laughing with his AA friends and talking to them more than me!
I have a feeling that you may be interpreting these feelings she has for her AA friends wrong (I apologise if I am wrong). It's very hard for an outsider to understand what the alcoholic goes through and what sobriety brings. The feelings she has for her AA group and friends is not the same as her feelings for you even though the are named the same, they come from a different motivation.
She is supported and supports her friends in AA, together they all want sobriety, a new clean life and they are all suffering because of it and they are going to recognise new feelings which are similar but different from feelings for a loved one.
As a recovered anorexic myself, no one will ever understand the horror that went on in mind about food and exercise. Not my parents, not my husband, no one. I loved each and every on of them but my group at the anorexic clinic knew the daily fights I went through with the voice in my head that didn't want to eat, wanted to eat, wanted to binge, desperate to exercise and you work together and it forms a bond of very close friends. New feelings will resurface which have either never been experienced by the person or which have been suppressed due to the disease.
These feelings all have the same name but please don't confuse them as the feelings with the same name that she has for you. It's completely different. Camaraderie is not love. I hope I make sense. (((hugs)))
In alanon I am learning to detach without amputation, I am healing, getting stronger, have much less anger and improved self-esteem. It's a lot of work but we are a group of people who understand the damage of alcohol. Maybe you can give alanon a try, Lyne
I am reminded that our program suggests that we help those who reach out for help and want to get better. We are of no service to those who don't want recovery and today, because I am different/better, I don't J-A-D-E when battling unhealthy people and thinking. For me to get better, I had to stop thinking I knew better than most and I needed to stop fighting everything and everyone to get 'my way' with 'my will'.
DoneHurting - there are many forums you can join that spend their time bashing AA, the Alcoholic and calling it a cult. I am hopeful that for no reason but common respect, you'd refrain from that here. We do understand your anger at the disease and the diseased. You are not alone or unique. May you find your path to a better place.
Please explain what you mean by "detach without amputation".
Thanks.
I always felt this was important because while AA and alanon might be related in certain respects and aspects, and there can be a perceived certain commonality that brings each respective of its members into the rooms...each is exclusive to their respective recovery. In alanon, we are to keep the focus on us, on our recovery, on us getting better, on us getting healthy. Yes, it involves having compassion, acceptance, and a certain understand of the alcoholic and the disease of alcoholism -- and that the alcoholic has a disease -- but we do that while focusing on ourselves and what we need to do to get better...get better from our disease.
Perhaps as it relates to this topic, I have an understanding that for the alcoholic who truly wants to get better, who finds recovery...the most important thing in the world is what they need to do every, sometimes every minute of every single day, to not drink. I get that. Their sobriety, at a certain point, for a certain period of time, sometimes has to come before anything else. Sometimes it is not more important than anything else...sometimes it is the only thing. I get that. I've seen that. While it might be difficult, even painful, to experience, it is sometimes necessary. Recovery is a not a destination...it is a journey.
One day at a time.
Sorry to be contentious. The message she is getting from her AA friends is that moderate drinking is not only ok but it is expected!
She says all the long term AA members all drink but don't admit it. I think it's true.
Bo - you posted what they say at the beginning of the Al-Anon meetings... they also say to be a member you cant have any other affiliations. That is a cult-like message.
Also, the program is for us to focus on us. Well, we all live in an interdependent society. We all can't do everything. That's why there is "division of labor".
We do depend on one another especially in a close relationship like marriage. I pay the bills and you do the shopping. I do the laundry and you clean the house. You pick up the kids and I bring them to soccer. That's interdependency and that makes it all work. So once again, I do not get the "focus is on me" message. It seems quite selfish.
It also is strange that drunks have to depend on drunks to get sober. I think it would be better to surround yourself with healthy people, not broken ones to fix yourself. Another thing I don't "get".
I don't mean to bash AA or Al-Anon. The deeper I get into the program, the more problems I see.
-- Edited by Donehurting on Saturday 21st of April 2018 07:20:55 AM
Donehurting many of your statements about AA are incorrect. The statement at the opening of the alanon meeting suggests that although you may be a member of any other group, that we keep the focus on alanon issues and alanon recovery tools so as to not become sidetracked (as we are now doing) into justifying ourselves . No one is forced to share or keep attending. Please search out alanon and AA open meetings and see for yourself.
I ask the double winners on this board address the issues such as most AA members drink and encourage drinking. It may be that the meetings suggest that many people are not alcoholics and can drink without issues but that once a person's drinking goes over the invisible line they can never safely drink.
I've been sober in AA for more than 30 years. Never, in any meeting I've attended all across the USA has there been discussions regarding social/moderate/reduced drinking. Every meeting I've attended suggests no alcohol or mind-altering substances of any kind one day at a time (prescription medications are the exception).
There are other recovery programs which I have no knowledge of, so can't speak to if they suggest moderate consumption is acceptable.
Just as with Al-Anon, there is an opening - called a preamble which you can google to read for yourself. Just as with Al-Anon, the preference is to use Conference Approved Literature and stay focused on topics as they relate to the disease of or the recovery from. Just as with Al-Anon, we share Experience, Strength and Hope by sharing what it was like, what happened and what it's like now.
Both AA & Al-Anon have traditions, principles and steps. AA came first, as did it's steps. Al-Anon uses the same steps with a few exceptions. Both suggest refraining from discussion of outside issues, topics, etc. Both suggest no alignment with any sect, denomination, politics, organization and institutions. Both suggest members stayed focused on why they are present.
I select meetings I attend based on service and my own need. I hang with many members, ranging in sober time of one day to fifty years. I am quite comfortable in saying those with long term sobriety do not take an occasional drink. If they do, they return and share and start over. Might there be exceptions? Possibly. However, I am also quite certain that the isms would show through loud and proud as they are not hard to spot, especially at AA meetings/events.
What I do know is that both programs worked best for me when I remember HOW it works - Honesty, Open-mindedness and Willingness.
There are no restrictions on outside affiliations whatsoever in either fellowship. It is just suggested those are left at the door. There is no brain-washing of anyone in either program, therefore 'cult' is not a proper label. In AA, the only requirement for membership is a DESIRE to stop drinking; one is not kicked out if they fail, relapse, slip, etc. There are no dues or fees for membership in either; each is self-supporting through contributions.
From personal experience, Al-Anon is far more structured and disciplined. There are AA meetings, Al-Anon meetings and joint meetings in my community as there are tons of double-winners (members of both) as well as many long-term marriages with a member in one/both.
In my own marriage, we have a very lopsided split of duty. It's not necessarily because of the disease but because of health issues/concerns. I take care of all the inside - laundry, shopping, cooking, cleaning, bills, taxes, etc. and my AH takes care of the outside. We each service/wash/manage our own vehicles. I'm 100% perfect with this and have never expected an even distribution of duties/chores. We are both retired and I am thrilled to have many chores that keep me active, young, of service to my family and beyond. This 'attitude' I share about is not how I always was. I was very bitter when life/family became extremely dysfunctional around here because of the disease. It is in Al-Anon that I came to accept life is what it is, and it's my job to pick it apart and be bitter, angry and miserable or to embrace it, enjoy it and just do my best one day at a time.
-- Edited by Iamhere on Saturday 21st of April 2018 11:58:20 AM
DH, some of the things you are saying, whether you have heard them or are inferring them, or whatever else may be going on here -- are, in all due respect -- incorrect. AA does not endorse, condone, support, or anything else of the like, moderate drinking for those who are alcoholics. In all due respect, your wife, if she is attending approved AA meetings, is not getting a message that moderate drinking is OK and expected for alcoholics and members of AA. Absolutely not. Period. People who go to AA go there because they made a decision -- a decision to stop drinking, get clean and sober, and find recovery. AA and the people there supports them and that decision and helps them live that life. But it was the person's decision. If a person doesn't want to make that decision or live that way -- they can still go -- but AA doesn't make them or force them. It is still up to the person.
As far as the statement during the opening of alanon meetings -- it does not say that to be a member of alanon you can't have any other affiliations. What is says is that IF you are a member of another fellowship -- hence, it is allowed -- during the meeting, you are asked to keep the focus on alanon, the alanon program, and your recovery. The statement is so that alanon and recovery can work for you and not have you be distracted by other programs, principles, tools, etc. Alanon is not there to defend itself or justify itself. If you feel you already have an adequate, substantial, and clear understanding of alanon, and you don't feel it is for you, that's OK. It is also suggested that you attend several meetings before deciding whether or not it is for you. That too is up to you as well. Good luck.
I find it hard to believe that AA would say that drinking is expected. This is definitely not the message my husband is getting and when they do say they are either relapsing, have relapsed or have no intention of getting well.
In the end you can't make the diseased person better so it's better to look after yourself, live your life and be happy rather than being dragged down by the alcoholic. This sounds hard I know and I'm sorry. To me it sounds like she doesn't take her 'sobriety' seriously. It's up to you to decide what you want to do.
Donehurting ...Mahalo for bringing this post. It is important and I find that I was in your position when I first got to recovery 40 years ago. My wife was an alcoholic/addict and it was her sponsor that in part recommended both programs in part because of my self centered holier/smarter than thou attitude which I kept on display for all at all times. As a newbie I sat and listened to the fellowships share their ESH with a programmed response always in my head after every share..."Bullsh-t, Bullsh-t, Bullsh-t" is what my mental emotional response would be until that no longer worked...I wasn't learning anything and it became uncomfortable including leaving and coming back and leaving. My spouse relapsed and the marriage and everything else went into shambles just as was being shared in the rooms time to time and I had to admit I didn't know anything about the disease of addiction and alcoholism and didn't even know that I didn't know. I came to describe my condition as being "dumb as a stick" so decided to participate positively rather than negatively...I was a mess on all levels however the fellowships (both) loved me unconditionally. I made Al-Anon my focus and didn't drink during the first 9 years in program and then listened to the evaluation of the in-patient nurse of my drinking (past) inventory assessment. "This person needs to be in inpatient care immediately or the next time he drinks he dies". I had learned about the progressive nature of the disease in the Al-Anon program and also that part of the progressive nature was relapsing...I also entered college to study and learn about the true nature of the chemical and the compulsion and progressive nature and the familial nature of my disease; it was generationally implanted and commenced its run in my life from the age of 9.
As you can see I made the decision to stop fighting the program and just listen with an open mind which is a suggestion that is made to us/me at the closing of every Al-Anon meeting along with a demand from my AA sponsorship "or else".
You arrived with all of your perceptions, ideas, practices, habits and behaviors which attempt to remain fixed. Mine did and I fought everything and everyone during the need to change and part of what I got from that was personal pain and consternation and an alcoholic/addict wife who continued to live and manage her own life in a manner I saw as insane...and I worked mental health.
I have one response that was soooo helpful to me that is used in both programs still today. "Keep coming back" which I add the "If you keep and open mind you will find help" statement to also.
Trust. (((hugs)))