Some people will know that last weekend I've set a boundary with my recovering alcoholic husband where I didn't want him to come over just to visit or 'be here' and see the girls. I wanted him to rebuild relationships with us and make it worthwhile. It's to difficult that he just comes over for a few hours and leaves again for AA and then his mums place.
Before I set this boundary we happened to talk about what things I had coming up and since we decided to change on of our girls to a different nursery, we also decided that our youngest would stop going for now which then meant that I would always have to find someone to look after her at least once a week so I could go to my therapy sessions which I previously planned when all 3 girls were at nursery (the eldest is now in school). My husband offered to work from home that day, which is coming Friday, so I could go.
Then I decided, after our first couples counselling session, that maybe it wasn't a good idea. My husband gets irritated when at work, calls his colleagues names (says it's normal, they all do it to each other, he works in finance) and is not himself. I've been thinking it over in my head for most of the night and thought it was better, as I set the boundary, to ask a friend to look after my youngest instead of my husband. I was wrong and I'm paying the price.
I was hoping he would be in contact at some point today but hadn't. I also needed (and still need) an answer regarding our next couples counselling date (I need to arrange someone to look after the children) and I asked if he knew when he would like us to go out together as (again) I need to arrange someone to look after the children.
As I don't want to phone him during work hours I emailed him instead with these 3 points. He is ignoring/refusing to answer the counselling and date night questions and is now very angry about the first one.
He said he had thrown over his work in order to work from home. Asked colleagues to some things for him that he couldn't do from home and declined other things that he could've done if he was at work. I didn't know this as when he was an active alcoholic he often 'worked from home' whenever he liked so he could continue drinking. And other times he didn't make a big deal out of it and I didn't realise he had gone through lengths to organise this. Otherwise I would've never asked him in the first place. I don't want to be a burden.
I tried to have a conversation with him by phoning him but he was instantly irritate and blaming me and only asking me if I knew what it felt like if I had put things in place only for someone to change their minds. Yes I have, for a long time and even now and I told him so. Childcare falls through at the last moment, classes get cancelled, my plans get changed all the time. My husband didn't seem to listen but said he had a very busy day (as always) I said that he should come as he went through great effort and he blamed me for messing him around which is not something I meant to do. I felt torn between my boundary and him seeing his children as he hadn't seen them since Easter (he mocked me for saying that he hand't seen his children for a while, he said 'ya think?!'). He became nasty and pushy and made me feel really bad and I just want to cry.
I fear he won't want to do counselling anymore now or want to go out with me. I feel insecure that if we have an argument (which I didn't want to have I just want to talk about things) everything from the weekend is out of the window. He won't want to try and fix things, goes quiet for days and leaves me hanging with unanswered but important questions. I don't think that is fair, however wrong I may have been. I was trying to follow my Steps and my boundary and clearly I did it wrong and I am the one feeling horrendous and insecure.
I'm putting this to you because if I don't I will keep worrying and having all these emotions. I am not sure now whether he is or isn't coming, I don't what to tell the couples counsellor about our next appointment or my friend who has offered to babysit on Thursday evening and needs to know whether the girls are coming to her or not.
-- Edited by Dutchy on Tuesday 17th of April 2018 10:34:03 AM
PosiesandPuppies said
Apr 17, 2018
Hugs and support, Dutchy!
We do not give advice, but share our experiences. My experience with my AH was that he changed his work schedule so that it could accommodate HIS drinking. He "worked" from home when HE felt like it, or was too hung over to manage driving into work. It had nothing to do with me or his child. How do I know? ACTIONS speak louder than words... he was never there and fully present. Didn't help out with house chores, didn't ease my burden with kid and school stuff (I worked too), didn't make dinner for us... you know, since he was home all day and I was working then shuffling kid to various things. Nope. It was ALL. ABOUT. HIM. Then when I began to raise my concerns about not being supported, he told me I was too demanding and to get off his back - he had so much stress from work, didn't need stress from me too. Later, I understood boundaries for me, but that meant my push-back was causing HIM to lose HIS status quo...so he blamed everything that was wrong on me. I was the unreasonable one. I was the crazy one. I was the unsupportive one. And for years I believed him!
Your gut instinct is telling you he is not "right" to watch your girls. Trust your instinct.
You are operating from a place of fear. I know. Been there, done that. It takes a lot of work with the Al-Anon program and a sponsor to feel strong enough to walk out from under that fear. Once I was able to do that, I was able to stand up for what I and my child needed, and didn't put up with all the addictive nonsense my AH would spew out!!!
Keep going to meetings, and maybe just see that counselor for yourself... let the "couples" session rest for awhile. MY AH and I had literally 11 years of counseling. Didn't do a lick of good, b/c he was a secret addict. Lied and placated both me his spouse, and the couples therapist! Once this was all out in the open, she told me that she couldn't keep seeing us as a couple. She told me she would be more than happy to be of service to me, though!
Wishing you Peace and Light this week, Dutchy!
SerenityRUS said
Apr 17, 2018
I have a WHOLE lot to say about this however for some reason this bugged the crap out of me .. LOL!!!
"My husband gets irritated when at work, calls his colleagues names (says it's normal, they all do it to each other, he works in finance) and is not himself."
I work in Finance .. I am not sure what kind of finance department he works in however that is TOXIC! I am coming from experience as I have worked in both .. the kind where upper management are horrible bullies and the kind where it's a conducive work environment to everyone and we still manage to get our work done .. we are not perfect in terms of we have drama from time to time .. I can't imagine working in another place that the bullying was going on.
Soooo .. sorry .. no no no no no no no .. LOL .. NO .. I want you to know that is NOT appropriate behavior in a home or at the office .. and you don't need a "reason" to say that's not a good time. That's an ass and if the rest of the department is like that shame on them .. NOT ok. I put up with that for a LONG time and Alanon helped me say NO. I learned to take the stand where I needed to and let the rest go. It is what it is .. that kind of verbal abuse bleeds back home.
Good for you on picking a better time .. however do note .. inappropriate is inappropriate behavior .. you don't need to excuse it.
I have a draft on my topic written just need to review it. LOL .. I needed to sleep on it and glad I did. I do want to come back and readdress some of what PNP has already stated.
Big HUGS ..
Not trying to tell you what to do .. however saying .. just because it's whatever kind of job .. unacceptable behavior is unacceptable period.
S :)
el-cee said
Apr 17, 2018
I just think of the slogan. Easy does it. Its exhausting running around trying to get the world to behave in an orderly and rational way and in a way that suits everyone. Its most likely impossible. I'm not sure if I've understand where your at. Your working the steps? Hopefully with the support of a sponsor and meetings because it's not really an alone type of program and it could explain your frustration and feelings of being wrong. It takes time, practice and importantly help to work it and to see improvements. Step 1 your powerless over alcohol and alcoholism. You can't change him or your relationship until you get recovery and make changes to you.
Dutchy said
Apr 17, 2018
The only AlAnon I have at the moment are on here and some other platforms. There are nightly AlAnon online meetings I attend as it's difficult to get childcare and I am exhausted most nights of running after 3 children. I do really want to go as I would love to have a sponsor to help me. I am doing the Steps on the Steps workboard on this website. And after my husband relapsed while I was in Holland, I realised a lot and I wasn't angry at hik for relapsing but felt I needed to put the boundary.
Serenity - I don't condone my husband attitude to others, it has become worse the more he drank. He is now almost 2 weeks sober after his recovery but still has that. He works in Market Risk of the bank. And the way they 'communicate' with each other is either brotherly or downright nasty. Horrible! I couldn't do it. Glad I am just a teacher.
As I am writing this my husband phoned, he is on his way to his sponsor but will phone later to apologise for the way he acted towards me and that he had confirmed the appointment with the couples counsellor for Thursday.
I am still left with an uncomfortable pit in my stomach about him coming on Friday (or not, he hasn't said yet) as I don't want his bad work attitude in the house but I also (however nasty of me) don't want him to see the children for an hour or 2 only to leave again and not see them for God knows how long. I am not comfortable with him just dropping in without being a father. He is here in a working capacity while being the adult to look after our youngest for 2 hours (but he has to stay the whole day as it's a working day and needs to be logged on) while I go to my own therapy and give myself the opportunity to clear my head at the gym.
DavidG said
Apr 17, 2018
Good topic As.
For me the idea about boundaries came from an allied programme to Alanon. When I first learned about them- it was said- remove barriers and create flexible boundaries. That was not to be a pushover.
I come from a rural outpost of the old empire A place where- "men were men, and women were glad of it." Not so any more. Small-talk is in.
As I read over your share I see the details and the thought processes. You are successfully processing all of the stuff.
I can learn from this... I sometimes 'fake it till I make it'. But having real peers along the way makes so much sense.
In my world I slipped between the cracks with education. But I was always still a learner, and a seeker. I wanted always to do well. But I lacked the tools to follow through. Had to go back and actually create these tools.
These are verbal and even management tools, sometimes.
In the rooms we sit together with all sorts. We have a common bond.
I am unafraid of those differences. These days I have confidence, and even flair...
I know now I am a really good learner- and have learned to be a good listener. Bingo!
Parts of my life I learned some really bad things- that I thought were normal. So I have had to unlearn as well- and along the way adopt an attitude of discernment.
I cannot do this alone.
Over my years in the programme I have seen the status of women improve markedly. Alanon is a great vantage point from which to see this one! And i saw it too- through my mum's eyes- her struggles- and eventual success.
"Keep it simple..." is one of our best ever slogans. I would say- "Keep it simple, stoopid! KISS. The American love of akronyms.
I was told off for using the last word. I was only using it in jest. And I was applying the word essentially to myself!
And the question you ask here- is a question to your self.
I honour that- as ah do- in all that you say... I always opened my ears and my heart to the sharing of new members. New members would always reflect back what was going on around us.
I welcome this with open arms- and an open mind! ...
thanks for the share, and the topic, As. ...
el-cee said
Apr 17, 2018
Its great your reaching out dutchy. It seems to me your willing and you want change. That's a great starting point. There's some great alanon literature on the alanon website. It will tell you what alanon is all about. There may be meetings with childcare? Not too sure. Not where i live. Most areas, in the UK, anyway have meetings somewhere every day of the week day and night. Check out the website. For me meetings are alanon. The rest without meetings is not enough for me. The people at meetings are huge for breaking the isolation, it's about the real life hugs, the support, the understanding and identification face to face. There is some great literature to get you started. I loved the leaflet on detachment and how alanon helps families. Some really good stuff. The daily readers and the amazing just for today card. Its a great program and for me a way of life and my life is way beyond anything I could ever have hoped for.
Bo said
Apr 17, 2018
I had a similar experience, and I feel for you. During these times, with these types of things going on -- emotions run high, fast, and frequent.
Perhaps you should re-visit your boundary. Check your motives. Talk to your sponsor.
There's more, but I always start there. Focus on YOU. Not what you want, but on YOU.
Dutchy said
Apr 17, 2018
Thank you all for all your love and support. As always I love your thoughts DavidG and El Cee thank you for the insight, I want to do all of it.
I am getting more and more desperate to go to actual meetings and I really want to find myself a sponsor. I have emailed AlAnon and AA and they both say to phone the meetings places as some will have childcare and others don't but it's not up to the Organisation it's up to the individual meeting places whether they offer it or not. Apparently I would have more of a chance at a daytime meeting. I will start phoning them from tomorrow (8pm in UK now)
As for my 'issue'. I think I still stand with my boundary but took in the 'flexible' that DavidG put in his reply. A flexible boundary as I feel my recovering alcoholic deserves to see his children. On the other hand I think it should be wit the right intentions. It now feels like he is helping us (which I don't want) or we are a way to while away the weekend days which might be harder for him as he doesn't work on Saturday or Sunday and is maybe otherwise scared to be confronted with himself. We cannot be his refuge in my opinion. And I feel by letting him come over on Friday to look after our youngest for a couple of hours (but he stays the whole day so he sees the others as well) that I am breaking my boundary or not taking the boundary seriously anymore. Even though I think the boundary is very very important that it's there. And I've started taking friends and church families offers for childcare without the guilt. I honestly believe it's better me and my husband get to know each other again before he gets to come in. Also so I can see where he is in his recovery and whether he is at all ready to be a part of this family. If he is not then I have to honour the timeline I have set for myself and I feel I am starting to become more and more ok with that timeline and its possible outcome.
Bo said
Apr 17, 2018
Just to clarify...when I said re-visit your boundary and check your motives -- I did not mean to remove, revoke, or eliminate your boundary period. "Check your motives" is a great exercise to make sure what you have is in fact a boundary, and not something else. Keep up the good work. All the best.
Iamhere said
Apr 17, 2018
Hey Dutchy - I've had boundaries that produced results different than needed. It happens and there's no perfect boundary nor any perfect way to recover! I have had to revisit things many, many times and it's comforting to remember that it's about progress, not perfection and our own healing.
If what you need is affected by a boundary, you have a right to make an exception when needed, as needed. It is all about progress always, never perfection. It's like that saying, If at first you don't succeed, try, try again....in recovery for me, if it's not meeting my needs, change is necessary.
I am glad that you've had a dialogue with your AH and he's working on his recovery too, just for today. I think it's easy to forget that all we really have is this one day, 24 hours, and we either have serenity and calm or we take action to get serenity and calm. I no longer have 'bad days' in recovery - I consider them speed-bumps or hiccups as we've got tools to help us over the stumbling blocks.
I spent a ton of time before Al-Anon projecting about the future. When I arrived at Al-Anon, as I was a planner type A, I spent a ton of time ensuring I had a plan B, C, etc. After some time in recovery, I am better able to go with the flow and make a plan B, C when it seems necessary vs. for almost everything. Working recovery gave me more clarity and more calm in my daily dealings with others - in recovery or active in disease.
With my recent parent health emergency, after seeing available flights, I tracked down my AH and asked if he could drive me to the airport in less than 2 hours. He was out the door and on the way to the golf course. I knew this and he knew I knew this and I just asked the question. He had every right to say No and I would have made other arrangements. I didn't beg, plead, JADE or anything - I just asked. To my complete surprise, he turned around, came back home, missed golf and drove me to the airport. Please understand, this was a first in 26 years of marriage and mostly because I always ASSumed he would not or would complain about it and never asked for help during golf season...
When I began planning for my return, I intentionally took the later flight so it would not interfere with golf. I now knew that he would probably be at the airport no matter what time I needed, yet I chose to be flexible as that's how healthy relationships work - flexibility. I didn't have that same option on the flight out as it was same day and I could only find one seat...
So - no matter how well we plan and how diligent we are about working the program and setting boundaries, life happens. I always consider what makes best sense for all involved and try to 'roll with it'. I was far less flexible before recovery as I was working on perfection, which turned out to be insanely over-rated and exhausting!!
And while you may not be thrilled with the language and style he presents while working, perhaps it will help to focus on the positive - he is employed, his job is flexible, he can help out, etc. The rest will take care of itself - my oldest grandson scolded my AH for his language last they were here - and my AH was guarded and only said A$$....we got a chuckle out of it, but our behavior is often best inventoried by the youngest in the room....just saying!!
There is never any shame in revisiting a boundary and as we learn, we grow and change and so might they. (((Hugs)))
serenity47 said
Apr 17, 2018
Early in my recovery I was pretty inflexible with my boundaries as I believed that I was going to force the outcome I so desperately wanted which was to have my loved one get sober. It never worked out that way for me and I created a lot of anxiety and stress for myself. Looking back they were not really boundaries, but my attempts to control another person and get them to behave in a way that I wanted them to behave. I became so busy taking my ADs inventory and figuring out what I thought she should be doing that I completely lost sight of what I needed to be doing. I was very desperate to fix her life and was so afraid for her that I could think of nothing else. Until I truly and readily accepted step one that I am completely powerless over another and my own life had become unmanageable, I then was able to relinquish my AD to her own journey . My boundaries now are about me and for me only, not to get her to act in a certain way. It has taken a lot of time and work to be able to learn this and I still struggle a lot as I want what I want when I want it and I must learn patience. When I allow others to simply be who they are, and take the steps I need to protect my own life, I am much happier.
-- Edited by serenity47 on Tuesday 17th of April 2018 06:43:14 PM
Bo said
Apr 17, 2018
serenity47 wrote:
Early in my recovery I was pretty inflexible with my boundaries as I believed that I was going to force the outcome I so desperately wanted which was to have my loved one get sober. It never worked out that way for me and I created a lot of anxiety and stress for myself. Looking back they were not really boundaries, but my attempts to control another person and get them to behave in a way that I wanted them to behave. I became so busy taking my ADs inventory and figuring out what I thought she should be doing that I completely lost sight of what I needed to be doing. I was very desperate to fix her life and was so afraid for her that I could think of nothing else. Until I truly and readily accepted step one that I am completely powerless over another and my own life had become unmanageable, I then was able to relinquish my AD to her own journey . My boundaries now are about me and for me only, not to get her to act in a certain way. It has taken a lot of time and work to be able to learn this and I still struggle a lot as I want what I want when I want it and I must learn patience. When I allow others to simply be who they are, and take the steps I need to protect my own life, I am much happier.
-- Edited by serenity47 on Tuesday 17th of April 2018 06:43:14 PM
Excellent points and perspective -- thank you for posting this.
Dutchy said
Apr 18, 2018
It's wonderful waking up to all this support and wisdom, reading it and debating it over a cup of coffee.
Be ready for a Dutchy style post here.
First I should say that I've had a conversation with my recovering husband last night. He phoned me when he left work asking if he could phone me after he met with his sponsor and before he went to the gym (he is doing a charity run in a few months and is 'practising'...his way ).
He phoned me about 2 hours later apologising for the way he acted and the way he spoke to me, which I thought was a big thing for him. He said it's something that he is working on with his sponsor and wants to work on in couples counselling as well as addressing the issue at work where he has apparently been reprimanded for his behaviour more than once. I explained to him where I came from. Partly because it entailed a lot of travelling for him an partly because of my boundary. We agreed to let it pass and move on, he's not coming this Friday. We are going to couples counselling tomorrow (Thursday) and he wanted to take me out for lunch on Sunday (hopefully I can find someone to look after the girls). So I'll take that for what it is. Progress.
Then waking up this morning to Bo's, Serenity's and Iamhere messages got me thinking....
My motives for the boundary were not to try and change my husbands behaviour or actions. I have no control over that but I felt I had a bit more control by putting the 'boundary' so that these visits at the weekend wouldn't be just that. I wanted them to be meaningful. In a way I think I've been doing what my husband was doing with sobriety until he relapsed. He was too strict. The boundary became a solid barrier, possibly something it shouldn't be. There was no way around that barrier, no exceptions to it, no flexibility.
My motives were to protect my feelings and the feelings of the children but forgetting every day life I think. When I need help I should be able to ask for my husbands help and I know he will do everything in his power to help (which he did as he clearly had to re arrange work stuff in order to work from home this Friday). He always has done, even as an active alcoholic.
I cannot make him come home, I cannot make him act in the way I want home to act but I find it very difficult for myself to have him just come and go and not really participate in family life. I do now see the need to be more flexible with that boundary and ask his help when I do need it. Even though I am apprehensive of him working from home as he still says words to his colleagues which I don't want the girls to take in and or see the irritated behaviour, almost aggressive, when he is working and I don't want the girls to feel that energy after 4 years of living with that energy day in and day out. When he is working from home, he will also be working, not really spending time with the girls and that was another reason for me to back out.
I know feel as like I am withholding his children from him which is not fair on him either as he has always wanted to do everything for his girls (previously that meant money, I hope that he can change that attitude). I shouldn't withhold him from his children and I endeavour to think about this boundary and maybe discuss this with him again as I will probably need his help at some point. For example my meeting with our eldest therapist and I would be gone for most of the day as I have to travel into town and back and I don't want my friends to have to put up with my children and their school and nursery pick ups when they have their own children to pick up as well and they don't go to the same schools, it would be easier to have my husband around to help in this situation.
Iamhere said
Apr 18, 2018
Hey Dutchy - good morning and great awareness....one thing that flew out from your share is you see some needs and you have some feelings and thoughts about those. You are also both working with a professional - perhaps you can share your needs and the 3 of you can come up with some plans, boundaries, etc. that allow you to get help while having healthy detachment from some of the 'other'.
I am one had to learn to defer to professionals in recovery. I always under the surface really still wanted my way and prayed every day to be open minded to the suggestions of others. Today, it's easier for me to defer and while I may not always like what's suggested or feel warm and fuzzy about it, I try to remain open as I keep the end game in mind - healthy me, family, days...
Keep leaning in and more will always be revealed....as with all recovery, just do you - just for today! (((Hugs)))
Dutchy said
Apr 18, 2018
Thank you Iamhere, I will do that. Tomorrow second couples counselling session (I'll see if I can bring it up) and Friday my weekly therapy. (((hugs)))
Some people will know that last weekend I've set a boundary with my recovering alcoholic husband where I didn't want him to come over just to visit or 'be here' and see the girls. I wanted him to rebuild relationships with us and make it worthwhile. It's to difficult that he just comes over for a few hours and leaves again for AA and then his mums place.
Before I set this boundary we happened to talk about what things I had coming up and since we decided to change on of our girls to a different nursery, we also decided that our youngest would stop going for now which then meant that I would always have to find someone to look after her at least once a week so I could go to my therapy sessions which I previously planned when all 3 girls were at nursery (the eldest is now in school). My husband offered to work from home that day, which is coming Friday, so I could go.
Then I decided, after our first couples counselling session, that maybe it wasn't a good idea. My husband gets irritated when at work, calls his colleagues names (says it's normal, they all do it to each other, he works in finance) and is not himself. I've been thinking it over in my head for most of the night and thought it was better, as I set the boundary, to ask a friend to look after my youngest instead of my husband. I was wrong and I'm paying the price.
I was hoping he would be in contact at some point today but hadn't. I also needed (and still need) an answer regarding our next couples counselling date (I need to arrange someone to look after the children) and I asked if he knew when he would like us to go out together as (again) I need to arrange someone to look after the children.
As I don't want to phone him during work hours I emailed him instead with these 3 points. He is ignoring/refusing to answer the counselling and date night questions and is now very angry about the first one.
He said he had thrown over his work in order to work from home. Asked colleagues to some things for him that he couldn't do from home and declined other things that he could've done if he was at work. I didn't know this as when he was an active alcoholic he often 'worked from home' whenever he liked so he could continue drinking. And other times he didn't make a big deal out of it and I didn't realise he had gone through lengths to organise this. Otherwise I would've never asked him in the first place. I don't want to be a burden.
I tried to have a conversation with him by phoning him but he was instantly irritate and blaming me and only asking me if I knew what it felt like if I had put things in place only for someone to change their minds. Yes I have, for a long time and even now and I told him so. Childcare falls through at the last moment, classes get cancelled, my plans get changed all the time. My husband didn't seem to listen but said he had a very busy day (as always) I said that he should come as he went through great effort and he blamed me for messing him around which is not something I meant to do. I felt torn between my boundary and him seeing his children as he hadn't seen them since Easter (he mocked me for saying that he hand't seen his children for a while, he said 'ya think?!'). He became nasty and pushy and made me feel really bad and I just want to cry.
I fear he won't want to do counselling anymore now or want to go out with me. I feel insecure that if we have an argument (which I didn't want to have I just want to talk about things) everything from the weekend is out of the window. He won't want to try and fix things, goes quiet for days and leaves me hanging with unanswered but important questions. I don't think that is fair, however wrong I may have been. I was trying to follow my Steps and my boundary and clearly I did it wrong and I am the one feeling horrendous and insecure.
I'm putting this to you because if I don't I will keep worrying and having all these emotions. I am not sure now whether he is or isn't coming, I don't what to tell the couples counsellor about our next appointment or my friend who has offered to babysit on Thursday evening and needs to know whether the girls are coming to her or not.
-- Edited by Dutchy on Tuesday 17th of April 2018 10:34:03 AM
Hugs and support, Dutchy!
We do not give advice, but share our experiences. My experience with my AH was that he changed his work schedule so that it could accommodate HIS drinking. He "worked" from home when HE felt like it, or was too hung over to manage driving into work. It had nothing to do with me or his child. How do I know? ACTIONS speak louder than words... he was never there and fully present. Didn't help out with house chores, didn't ease my burden with kid and school stuff (I worked too), didn't make dinner for us... you know, since he was home all day and I was working then shuffling kid to various things. Nope. It was ALL. ABOUT. HIM. Then when I began to raise my concerns about not being supported, he told me I was too demanding and to get off his back - he had so much stress from work, didn't need stress from me too. Later, I understood boundaries for me, but that meant my push-back was causing HIM to lose HIS status quo...so he blamed everything that was wrong on me. I was the unreasonable one. I was the crazy one. I was the unsupportive one. And for years I believed him!
Your gut instinct is telling you he is not "right" to watch your girls. Trust your instinct.
You are operating from a place of fear. I know. Been there, done that. It takes a lot of work with the Al-Anon program and a sponsor to feel strong enough to walk out from under that fear. Once I was able to do that, I was able to stand up for what I and my child needed, and didn't put up with all the addictive nonsense my AH would spew out!!!
Keep going to meetings, and maybe just see that counselor for yourself... let the "couples" session rest for awhile. MY AH and I had literally 11 years of counseling. Didn't do a lick of good, b/c he was a secret addict. Lied and placated both me his spouse, and the couples therapist! Once this was all out in the open, she told me that she couldn't keep seeing us as a couple. She told me she would be more than happy to be of service to me, though!
Wishing you Peace and Light this week, Dutchy!
"My husband gets irritated when at work, calls his colleagues names (says it's normal, they all do it to each other, he works in finance) and is not himself."
I work in Finance .. I am not sure what kind of finance department he works in however that is TOXIC! I am coming from experience as I have worked in both .. the kind where upper management are horrible bullies and the kind where it's a conducive work environment to everyone and we still manage to get our work done .. we are not perfect in terms of we have drama from time to time .. I can't imagine working in another place that the bullying was going on.
Soooo .. sorry .. no no no no no no no .. LOL .. NO .. I want you to know that is NOT appropriate behavior in a home or at the office .. and you don't need a "reason" to say that's not a good time. That's an ass and if the rest of the department is like that shame on them .. NOT ok. I put up with that for a LONG time and Alanon helped me say NO. I learned to take the stand where I needed to and let the rest go. It is what it is .. that kind of verbal abuse bleeds back home.
Good for you on picking a better time .. however do note .. inappropriate is inappropriate behavior .. you don't need to excuse it.
I have a draft on my topic written just need to review it. LOL .. I needed to sleep on it and glad I did. I do want to come back and readdress some of what PNP has already stated.
Big HUGS ..
Not trying to tell you what to do .. however saying .. just because it's whatever kind of job .. unacceptable behavior is unacceptable period.
S :)
Good topic As.
For me the idea about boundaries came from an allied programme to Alanon. When I first learned about them- it was said- remove barriers and create flexible boundaries. That was not to be a pushover.
I come from a rural outpost of the old empire A place where- "men were men, and women were glad of it." Not so any more. Small-talk is in.
As I read over your share I see the details and the thought processes. You are successfully processing all of the stuff.
I can learn from this... I sometimes 'fake it till I make it'. But having real peers along the way makes so much sense.
In my world I slipped between the cracks with education. But I was always still a learner, and a seeker. I wanted always to do well. But I lacked the tools to follow through. Had to go back and actually create these tools.
These are verbal and even management tools, sometimes.
In the rooms we sit together with all sorts. We have a common bond.
I am unafraid of those differences. These days I have confidence, and even flair...
I know now I am a really good learner- and have learned to be a good listener. Bingo!
Parts of my life I learned some really bad things- that I thought were normal. So I have had to unlearn as well- and along the way adopt an attitude of discernment.
I cannot do this alone.
Over my years in the programme I have seen the status of women improve markedly. Alanon is a great vantage point from which to see this one! And i saw it too- through my mum's eyes- her struggles- and eventual success.
"Keep it simple..." is one of our best ever slogans. I would say- "Keep it simple, stoopid! KISS. The American love of akronyms.
I was told off for using the last word. I was only using it in jest. And I was applying the word essentially to myself!
And the question you ask here- is a question to your self.
I honour that- as ah do- in all that you say... I always opened my ears and my heart to the sharing of new members. New members would always reflect back what was going on around us.
I welcome this with open arms- and an open mind!
...
thanks for the share, and the topic, As.
...
Perhaps you should re-visit your boundary. Check your motives. Talk to your sponsor.
There's more, but I always start there. Focus on YOU. Not what you want, but on YOU.
I am getting more and more desperate to go to actual meetings and I really want to find myself a sponsor. I have emailed AlAnon and AA and they both say to phone the meetings places as some will have childcare and others don't but it's not up to the Organisation it's up to the individual meeting places whether they offer it or not. Apparently I would have more of a chance at a daytime meeting. I will start phoning them from tomorrow (8pm in UK now)
As for my 'issue'. I think I still stand with my boundary but took in the 'flexible' that DavidG put in his reply. A flexible boundary as I feel my recovering alcoholic deserves to see his children. On the other hand I think it should be wit the right intentions. It now feels like he is helping us (which I don't want) or we are a way to while away the weekend days which might be harder for him as he doesn't work on Saturday or Sunday and is maybe otherwise scared to be confronted with himself. We cannot be his refuge in my opinion. And I feel by letting him come over on Friday to look after our youngest for a couple of hours (but he stays the whole day so he sees the others as well) that I am breaking my boundary or not taking the boundary seriously anymore. Even though I think the boundary is very very important that it's there. And I've started taking friends and church families offers for childcare without the guilt. I honestly believe it's better me and my husband get to know each other again before he gets to come in. Also so I can see where he is in his recovery and whether he is at all ready to be a part of this family. If he is not then I have to honour the timeline I have set for myself and I feel I am starting to become more and more ok with that timeline and its possible outcome.
If what you need is affected by a boundary, you have a right to make an exception when needed, as needed. It is all about progress always, never perfection. It's like that saying, If at first you don't succeed, try, try again....in recovery for me, if it's not meeting my needs, change is necessary.
I am glad that you've had a dialogue with your AH and he's working on his recovery too, just for today. I think it's easy to forget that all we really have is this one day, 24 hours, and we either have serenity and calm or we take action to get serenity and calm. I no longer have 'bad days' in recovery - I consider them speed-bumps or hiccups as we've got tools to help us over the stumbling blocks.
I spent a ton of time before Al-Anon projecting about the future. When I arrived at Al-Anon, as I was a planner type A, I spent a ton of time ensuring I had a plan B, C, etc. After some time in recovery, I am better able to go with the flow and make a plan B, C when it seems necessary vs. for almost everything. Working recovery gave me more clarity and more calm in my daily dealings with others - in recovery or active in disease.
With my recent parent health emergency, after seeing available flights, I tracked down my AH and asked if he could drive me to the airport in less than 2 hours. He was out the door and on the way to the golf course. I knew this and he knew I knew this and I just asked the question. He had every right to say No and I would have made other arrangements. I didn't beg, plead, JADE or anything - I just asked. To my complete surprise, he turned around, came back home, missed golf and drove me to the airport. Please understand, this was a first in 26 years of marriage and mostly because I always ASSumed he would not or would complain about it and never asked for help during golf season...
When I began planning for my return, I intentionally took the later flight so it would not interfere with golf. I now knew that he would probably be at the airport no matter what time I needed, yet I chose to be flexible as that's how healthy relationships work - flexibility. I didn't have that same option on the flight out as it was same day and I could only find one seat...
So - no matter how well we plan and how diligent we are about working the program and setting boundaries, life happens. I always consider what makes best sense for all involved and try to 'roll with it'. I was far less flexible before recovery as I was working on perfection, which turned out to be insanely over-rated and exhausting!!
And while you may not be thrilled with the language and style he presents while working, perhaps it will help to focus on the positive - he is employed, his job is flexible, he can help out, etc. The rest will take care of itself - my oldest grandson scolded my AH for his language last they were here - and my AH was guarded and only said A$$....we got a chuckle out of it, but our behavior is often best inventoried by the youngest in the room....just saying!!
There is never any shame in revisiting a boundary and as we learn, we grow and change and so might they. (((Hugs)))
Early in my recovery I was pretty inflexible with my boundaries as I believed that I was going to force the outcome I so desperately wanted which was to have my loved one get sober. It never worked out that way for me and I created a lot of anxiety and stress for myself. Looking back they were not really boundaries, but my attempts to control another person and get them to behave in a way that I wanted them to behave. I became so busy taking my ADs inventory and figuring out what I thought she should be doing that I completely lost sight of what I needed to be doing. I was very desperate to fix her life and was so afraid for her that I could think of nothing else. Until I truly and readily accepted step one that I am completely powerless over another and my own life had become unmanageable, I then was able to relinquish my AD to her own journey . My boundaries now are about me and for me only, not to get her to act in a certain way. It has taken a lot of time and work to be able to learn this and I still struggle a lot as I want what I want when I want it and I must learn patience. When I allow others to simply be who they are, and take the steps I need to protect my own life, I am much happier.
-- Edited by serenity47 on Tuesday 17th of April 2018 06:43:14 PM
Excellent points and perspective -- thank you for posting this.
It's wonderful waking up to all this support and wisdom, reading it and debating it over a cup of coffee.
Be ready for a Dutchy style post here.
First I should say that I've had a conversation with my recovering husband last night. He phoned me when he left work asking if he could phone me after he met with his sponsor and before he went to the gym (he is doing a charity run in a few months and is 'practising'...his way
).
He phoned me about 2 hours later apologising for the way he acted and the way he spoke to me, which I thought was a big thing for him. He said it's something that he is working on with his sponsor and wants to work on in couples counselling as well as addressing the issue at work where he has apparently been reprimanded for his behaviour more than once. I explained to him where I came from. Partly because it entailed a lot of travelling for him an partly because of my boundary. We agreed to let it pass and move on, he's not coming this Friday. We are going to couples counselling tomorrow (Thursday) and he wanted to take me out for lunch on Sunday (hopefully I can find someone to look after the girls). So I'll take that for what it is. Progress.
Then waking up this morning to Bo's, Serenity's and Iamhere messages got me thinking....
My motives for the boundary were not to try and change my husbands behaviour or actions. I have no control over that but I felt I had a bit more control by putting the 'boundary' so that these visits at the weekend wouldn't be just that. I wanted them to be meaningful. In a way I think I've been doing what my husband was doing with sobriety until he relapsed. He was too strict. The boundary became a solid barrier, possibly something it shouldn't be. There was no way around that barrier, no exceptions to it, no flexibility.
My motives were to protect my feelings and the feelings of the children but forgetting every day life I think. When I need help I should be able to ask for my husbands help and I know he will do everything in his power to help (which he did as he clearly had to re arrange work stuff in order to work from home this Friday). He always has done, even as an active alcoholic.
I cannot make him come home, I cannot make him act in the way I want home to act but I find it very difficult for myself to have him just come and go and not really participate in family life. I do now see the need to be more flexible with that boundary and ask his help when I do need it. Even though I am apprehensive of him working from home as he still says words to his colleagues which I don't want the girls to take in and or see the irritated behaviour, almost aggressive, when he is working and I don't want the girls to feel that energy after 4 years of living with that energy day in and day out. When he is working from home, he will also be working, not really spending time with the girls and that was another reason for me to back out.
I know feel as like I am withholding his children from him which is not fair on him either as he has always wanted to do everything for his girls (previously that meant money, I hope that he can change that attitude). I shouldn't withhold him from his children and I endeavour to think about this boundary and maybe discuss this with him again as I will probably need his help at some point. For example my meeting with our eldest therapist and I would be gone for most of the day as I have to travel into town and back and I don't want my friends to have to put up with my children and their school and nursery pick ups when they have their own children to pick up as well and they don't go to the same schools, it would be easier to have my husband around to help in this situation.
I am one had to learn to defer to professionals in recovery. I always under the surface really still wanted my way and prayed every day to be open minded to the suggestions of others. Today, it's easier for me to defer and while I may not always like what's suggested or feel warm and fuzzy about it, I try to remain open as I keep the end game in mind - healthy me, family, days...
Keep leaning in and more will always be revealed....as with all recovery, just do you - just for today! (((Hugs)))