Dutchy, welcome to the family.  As you keep coming back gaining Experience, Strength and Hope, you will find that answer you are looking for.  We don't give advise but share our ESH with others.  We cannot tell anyone else what is right for them to do and only what has worked for us.  We can and have been wrong and much of the good stuff that has come about for me came from others who were shared with by others still.

This, our disease, is incurable and you haven't caused it, cannot control it and will not cure it. We get better by doing what you have done this morning...coming here and sharing your ESH with others and being shared with in return is how we learn and grow.   Keep coming back.  ((((hugs))))  

Dutchy wrote:

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  Thank you for reading! And I'm sorry for the loooong post!

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 Long is good here,,,  we do not have to put an egg-timer on the table....

I am 35 years in  Alanon. 35 years ago we used to say this maxim- most women stay with their alcoholic partners, and most men leave their alcoholic wives.

In my parent's day the maxim was- you made your bed- so now you must lie on it.

Not so today. My own relationship was tough... but we have made it through... so far so good.

Another much older maxim is- "out of the frying pan and into the fire". Meaning, that is here are no significant changes in our outlook we are always vulnerable.

These changes are not usually about our own faults. More than ever they are about the set of circumstances we find ourselves in.

Acceptance, detachment, and serenity is what us old timers remember most trying to find. [Well, at least, I think so!]

a good topic, A. and well written...

reaching out- in whatever direction, is a good start.

the goodness within will find good in the world, and generate hope...  ...

((((Dutchy)))) we feel what you feel as we can remember what it was like for us also and then we also feel what it is like after and while working this program.  You will read where we now use the words, miracles and awesome and more yet those only come from the experience of working the program.  You are free to choose to use everything and anything that might work for you and we will continue to be here with and for you.  Keep coming back ....((((hugs)))) 

You are right SerenityRUS!

He will do whatever he will do. It's horrible to see as we started out being an amazing couple. Being there for each other, challenging each other. He is the best person to have when it comes to pregnancy, labour or helping out. We have had 4 rescue cats and 2 died suddenly and we were both devastated and really got even closer by the experience.Before rehab I could see he really enjoyed his children when 'sober' ( he was off course never really sober I have now learned). It's difficult to see how different it all is now and the girls don't even ask after him anymore. Me and the girls are now a little family and he will have to come and join us but he seems not interested, not honest, non committalcommittal.

Hewas cheated on by a long term girlfriend before me and it is something I would never expect him to do but in the last year when drunk and abusive he would completely bury me towards women I never heard of and he even went as far as to tell one he would show her a good time. This is so not the person I married at all.

Dutchy, I'm reading your thread and feeling your pain. You are not alone. xx

I am not actually feeling angry I am feeling quite calm about it. I saw it coming. I was talking to others about his behaviour and it seemed he was 'white knuckling' his sobriety and displayed traits of a 'dry drunk'.

He came out of rehab totally confused, not knowing who or what he was. He had a name and he was 37, a boy who started drinking at 13 with parents who never cared about him, never parented him. His father used to beat him up whenever he felt like it, without reason. So I am dealing with a teenager with a lot of issues. He pulled himself out of school, worked his behind off to have the City job he has now, he has done well in that part of his life. He met me. A caring person, from a close and stable family and we wanted the same things. I think he liked coming home to a warm person, someone who listened, someone who cared. 

Before he went into rehab he phoned me and said that he wasn't just doing this for  himself. He was doing this for us and the girls (we want(ed) more children) and if I was prepared to keep investing in him through this. I had just started my own therapy and with that 'The Work' by Katie Byron and started challenging my own thought processes such like 'what would my life be like without this thought'.

THen last weekend when I hadn't heard from it all I did get angry because I thought it was plain rude to not be interested in your own children children whether they are in this country or visiting their grandparents in Netherlands. An that's when I realised since rehab he has only been busy about himself. Work and AA work AA work AA work AA and nothing else. He came at the weekend 'to help' as he had no clue what to do with himself otherwise.

He was riding a massive emotional roller coaster with the added benefit of memories popping into his head of the horrendous things that he has done to me, the girls and to himself. He is left with severe frontal lobe brain damage and seizures.

In the whole 2 months he was sober he was non committal, barely contacted us, was sometimes really loving and seemed to have fun with us, was nasty to colleagues when working from our house, quickly irritated, showed no real interest in anything, came after morning rush and left before the girls bedtime, not forthcoming with weekend ideas (he just followed me), when angry shouted 'I don't want to be with you', refused to move back home (a teenager in his mums spare bedroom even though his mum is often away or out to dinner, they rarely see each other and she thinks everything is peachy).

So tonight there is couples counselling and things will have to change. He has to be more open, honest and communicative. He shouldn't dwell on his relapse. It happened and he needs to pick himself up and move on. In that respect we are the same We either do it or we don't and we don't let bumps in the road easily get us down I have my next child wish I refuse to let go however dumb and he needs to do his thing. And he is going to have to give me some other answers at which he's only been saying 'I don't have an answer for you'. Problem is, he knows I will move to the Netherlands if/when things  don't work out. He's been very angry about that as well. 

A few weeks ago I wrote hi a 5 page letter, more for myself than for him, in which I explained my recovery, how i felt (sexier, freer, doing the things I love which I didn't do before his rehab, the therapy I am attending) and where I am in my recovery. And what I ultimately want and he might not be able to give me. It wasn't an accusatory letter, it was a letter simply to explain reminisce about our good times together and to tell him that I am not letting go of my wish and what that might mean. He has read it, has not responded to it and I didn't expect him to and that's ok. I needed to write it to him and I feel better for it. 

He days he doesn't know why he slipped Saturday night, I think I now and I will want to talk about that tonight.

Thank you iamhere for your uplifting message!

It must be horrible and difficult for him to have to do this with children and indeed a lot of responsibilities.

I've always been one to research and read when something happens that I don't understand and by doing that and talking to people I think I've got a better idea of what is going on than my husband thinks.

It's not easy but it is what it is for now. I'll update tonight when we have had couples counselling. I'm sure I'll need to get it out.....

I have just come back from our very first couples counselling session and I honestly don't know what to make of it.

My husband came to the house and we drove together to the therapy session. He explained he relapsed on Saturday not knowing why it happened but blacked out at some point and woke on Sunday morning to finish the rest of the bottle. He was 67 days sober. He is angry and disappointed at himself. I tried to support him and told him it was a slip up, that it was good he spoke with his sponsor and that he should try and not dwell on it but pick himself up and continue working the program. He was very distant and seemed angry (I have learned that he gets angry when he is uncomfortable), he took his wedding ring off a few weeks ago and still isn't wearing it as it doesn't feel right to him.

He started some small talk while waiting for the therapist, asked after the girls, my family and my niece (he never does that). 

When we were sitting with the therapist he asked us what it was that brought us here and my husband had trouble explaining so I did and said that in 2014 we bought a house which was full of issues we didn't know about and it caused a lot of issues and tensions seeing we had 2 small children and came from a one bedroom flat and were made to live in a hotel where my husband started to drink drink drink. I explained his behaviour became worse, abusive, seizures and that at the beginning of the year he went to rehab (he translated that as being kicked out when actually the GP threatened with Social Services and when I spoke with his mum she said she'd talk to him about him staying with her for a few days), that I phoned our health insurance and basically begged them to help him which landed him in rehab. After rehab, at first he was open and wanted confused but wanted to be with us and he wanted to work on our marriage but slowly he became distant, communicated badly, was agitated, had mood swings and didn't think it was necessary to contact us while we were visiting my family last week and then he relapsed.

He told his side of the story, he was so angry. He said, and it's true, that I wanted to back out of purchasing the doomed house as I never liked it and had a bad feeling but it was our only choice. He was asked about his childhood. Parents divorced when he was barely 3, mum kept full time job, his aunt babysat him, bad relationship with his sister and his father (who beat him), got into the wrong crowds, substance abuse. 

We were asked how and why we got together and we could finally laugh as on paper we are polar opposites but we seemed to work even though I am slowly realising we may never have been right.

I moved in with him 6 months into our relationship and only today I heard that he couldn't remember it (he was never a light drinker) and that he wasn't sure about it, that he was the one to always end relationships and he did so with me 3 months after we moved in together because he wanted space. That same say he said he didn't want me to leave. This evening he said he doubted us moving in but he didn't want us to break up and if he told me to move out it would mean breaking up so I stayed (this is not good and this was news to me today).

His parents were heavy drinkers, his childhood was not very good. My childhood was very good and secure My mum was a stay at home mum for 7 years before she went back to work. m parents have been married for 45 years with their ups and downs, our family is very close. I did get bullied in secondary school, had low self esteem because of it, I found cancer in my father and felt so guilty I became anorexic for 5 years. I am doing great and have given that period a place in my life and it doesn't bother me anymore. It is sometimes a struggle with Christmas and Easter but other than that it's not an issue at all. When my mum returned to work she had a period where she did drink a lot as her work was so stressful, she was also diagnosed with MS around that time. My mum no longer drinks after a bad accident while drunk but the therapist found it interesting both our parents are substance abusers and so are/were we. Him alcoholic, me recovered anorexic.

My husband also got very angry about our holiday to France. We've been going to the same camping as family for over 20 years. We love it in the Loire Valley. My husband now hates it, is bred of it and refuses to go. The girls really wanted to go so we are going as I love it there too and I see it as my husbands loss for missing out on family time (if he's even bothered about that). We have been to Otley in Yorkshire a few times too. Again me and the girls love love love it there and we looked at moving up there about a year ago but now my husband doesn't like going there either! He wants to go somewhere else, is bored of it.

He said he is constantly thinking about drinking, was even checking out in therapy thinking about wanting a drink and thinking 'sod it I am going to get drunk tonight'. I left it for what it is because it is his choice.

He told me he doesn't know me, he doesn't know himself. The therapist said that his recovery is a long and slow process. I explained that I felt he was white knuckling his sobriety and wasn't recovering at all which is why he relapsed. my husband had nothing to say to that. I explained that if we wanted to see whether there is something in this marriage we need to spend time together and him hiding at his mums place instead of coming home isn't helping things. I didn't get to the point of saying I do everything on my own, am always reliant on other for times for myself as I need people to look after my girls if I want to do something as simple as going to the gym of pay people for it. 

My husband said that I thought everything would be great when he got out of rehab (he thought he had committed career suicide, turned out to be the opposite) which is far from the truth. I explained I knew we needed to start from scratch but that he seems very unwilling to want to have to do anything with us but because AA tells him not to make any big decisions in his first year he won't do it. I also explained that that doesn't mean I am just going to sit here and wait to be dumped,that I am following my own recovery and that that might mean I am not able or willing to give him as much time as he needs if he doesn't show me at least that he would like to try and see what is in this marriage. He started biting his nails and instantly brought up the fact that I would move back to the Netherlands and he would never see his children again. Children he doesn't know, he can't remember most of the last 10 years so how can he be angry about something like this?! I have my family in the Netherlands, more support, more love and I need that too. I feel I need to move on too. He got angry I looked at other ways of having another child. It is bad and horrible of me but something I can't let go. 

My husband was very subdued and seemed confused at the end of the session while I felt I needed to be strong and I felt strong. I feel this marriage won't last. Maybe because my recovery goes quicker than his and the fact I am actually upset about the fact that in the last 10 years, even when I thought things were great, I have now learned that they weren't in my husbands eyes. Mostly because he can't remember a lot of it. I feel cheated by that. I gave my all for 10 years and probably even more than that and when I'm the one saying I want to move on my husband gets angry, defensive and harsh or, as we left the therapy session, confused, insecure and sad. He wanted to walk me to the car but I said it was better he went to his train which was close. I also said that him continuing to live at his mums is not going to help this marriage at all. You can't make up your mind about anything like this if you refuse to bring yourself back into the family and if it's too hard for him then maybe I need to let him go because if I do that I will never have to think or deal with alcoholism like this again, I hope, at least I'd be truly free as I can leave England (I'm only here because my husband is British) and be with my family and who knows what comes onto my path. 

There is one thought I am afraid to tell you because I feel I would be judged negatively if I did even though it's my choice. It's the one thing I need to figure out for myself. 

Another looooooong post, thank you for reading and for your comments, help, advice. It helps so much just to write off and put it out there. I don't think I would've been able to sleep if I hadn't.

 As...

       ...putting aside the content, this is a fine piece of journalling. Inside of 'the rooms' is a privilege- where we hear and see stuff that takes the place of our messed up world- truth and spirit and honesty. Your honesty and integrity shows up in every word, in every phrase. Good on you gal!  ...

Dutchy wrote:

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See, not sleeping. But I love your encouraging words DavidG! I wish I found this board months ago.

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 ... there is strength is diversity here... members from all over the world... a reminder to take care... yes...  ...

Your husband is acting like a confused and angry teenager, as you note - and sometimes like a toddler having a tantrum.  That's his developmental stage and I think it would be unrealistic to expect that to change any time soon.  I know that when we've dealt with alcoholism for a long time, we feel we are overdue for some partnership, maturity, and caring - and that's true.  But even if they are not drinking, they are simply not capable of that yet.  It's like asking a toddler to take care of the family.  What seems obvious to us is not at all obvious to them, plus they have every kind of swirling emotion, plus they are spending every moment trying to adjust to the new sobriety and not go back to their only coping skill, which is drinking.  It sounds like your guy is hanging on to sobriety by his fingernails.  He already had one slip and that is not a good sign.

My instinct is that being at his mother's is his way of trying to limit the stimulation he encounters, and hold off on the drinking.  My instinct is that if he moves back in with you before he's ready, it will tip him over the edge.  Of course, he may well tip over the edge anyway.

It's certainly fair to say to yourself, "I've waited way longer than I wanted to for a partner who could step up in the relationship.  I simply can't wait any longer."  It's also fair to say, "I'm going to do this just day by day, and not make any big decisions for now."

The most important thing is to take care of yourself and get involved in your own recovery.  Hang in there.

Hi Y'all...

 I get balance in a group by doing a share of my own, usually...

I can attend this group daily, rather than weekly... swirling around me is the "B" word, boundaries... and by that I mean group boundaries and protocols.

At age 67 I have found myself- as far as it goes. I was very wounded.

I will never under estimate the recovery abilities of a survivor... ... a lot of the time it felt like I was the only one. And the hard graft i had to do alone.

So I leave others to do this too. My SO had a different addiction- but, when the crisis came I was the one who intervened. And this was successful. My first "qualifier" was my dad.

Now I regard myself as the qualifier.

I had to move away from the cliches- and the slogans on their own. I had to deal with the nitty gritty of life itself. And draw in the thoughts and the ideas that worked the best- in a direct practical way. It is not an easy journey- and I believe that all of us know this.

Sometimes I speak on a whim. I let the thoughts flow- and the tears sometimes. And some times i cry from sheer joy gratitude and relief!

I am a work in progress and i believe that Alanon is too. I believe that Alanon has to move with the times.

Having an Alanon meeting online is a really good example of this!

Having said that i also believe that Alanon should remain true to its underlying principles. To the Steps, Traditions and Concepts...

I rang my daughter just before. I was a bit worried about one of the two kids. The young five year old was out on the gold course with his dad!. The kid in question was at home with her mum- sitting by the fire...

...the problem, if there was one, was bring solved by my daughter. And this was me letting things go and handing it over...

it is autumn here- fall.. Saturday morning... with  bonny day coming up... I think of the time inside of this group. My memory and concentration have improved heaps here... I can see and hear a sea of faces... only one member of this group have I met in person! And it was a true and sweet meeting indeed!

Sometimes things baffle me- as to why i say and do certain things. Certainly, in years past I seemed to have cabbage for brains and had little or no control over body and mind. But hope prevailed... 

health and wellbeing spring up... I seem to have normal emotions... but, because of my past I treasure and value them enormously!

Thanks for the share, here on your thread Dutchy-

                                                                          for some reason i did not want to top post this morning...  ...

 Aww..., As. ...

                    I was putting in a pitch for hubby, through talking about myself... and for family too... which is always a family, whatever happens in the future...

...its just about giving things our best shot, really... all we can do. In your last big posting you seemed to venture right into the centre of the 12 Steps- as you began to focus on yourself and on your own life journey...

                                                                       so i really suppose that added to the tenor of my post... I sense you would be receptive to it.

I am here today, literally, because people gave something of themselves- at some vital time... I still need this- need to generate this in my life.

And knowing it is there... hope... in people around me... is a real treasure...!!! Thanks back...  ...

 It is Sunday morning here... getting cold outside these mornings... getting to meetings is designed to get a handhold on maturity- emotional maturity.

For me- I hammed it- I faked it through life. I had learned some good values- but overall emotional maturity was not demonstrated in my family. I had not resources. I could not expect my wife to give me these. She had a life of her own- even issues of her own to sort out.

Gaining personal space to enjoy a relationship is possible... ...I got this inside of Alanon. I gradually learned how to adult. I learned this amongst people with whom I could identify strongly. I had close contact with AA members as well.

Taking care of myself was essential- HALT... hungry, angry, lonely, tired. Losing sleep dragged me down. I grew up as a worrier- I had a lot to worry about, or so it seemed. Making contact and keeping contact with close friends... ,,,dealing with emotions... and having regular enjoyable meals is a baseline.

I still read the title to your thread- "Has is all been for nothing?"

A question you will find answers to over time... in all of your sharing this crops up all the time. You are going through a challenging life crisis.

In my journey I helped create a pathway too, for my kids... ...things were really tough, at times... and I said to myself- let my kids see me resolve this one the best way I can. In the end I did this for myself-  not primarily for them. But the example was there- the lesson of life.

I was really lucky my wife-partner was working her way towards me. She did have a Plan B. [I think we always have to have a Plan B.]

But my best shot, Plan A. And her Plan A. won through, thankfully...   ...