I've been under a special amount of stress lately (see other thread!) and I've been reflecting on support systems. There have been a few times in my life when I really, urgently needed a lot of support. Like the time I was taking care of my parents single-handedly when they were terminally ill. I am an only child and both my parents were only children, so there was no larger family available - though I know that having relatives doesn't automatically mean they're emotionally healthy and helpful. But in those stressful times and others, I tried to rely on my partner and my friends, and both partner and friends let me down pretty badly. I mean yelling at me for being tearful, saying that I was 'just trying to get attention and the problems weren't really that bad,' and other really unhealthy behavior.
So what I realized is that I have gravitated to people who are so emotionally unhealthy that they are just too self-absorbed and incapable of putting someone else first for a while, even in an emergency. I guess I didn't even know that there were people who weren't like that out there. Or I thought I had to make do with the crumbs, because healthier people just weren't available. Or they just wouldn't care for me.
But then what happens is that when an emergency happens, you have two big problems. You have the emergency, and you have the painful relationship with the person who can't offer support. And that person generally has taken up so much time and energy (they're like a black hole that absorbs all light) that you haven't cultivated healthier relationships that might be more supportive. It's like they block up the space for friends and relationships in your life, and your whole system is weak.
I'm really noticing now who is offering support and who is letting me down. Like friends who volunteer to do something and then when I ask them to do it, they agree and say they're doing it, but then they drop the ball and they hid that they didn't do it, and it ends up causing more trouble than if I'd just done it myself in the first place. And my reflex reaction is just the way I always reacted to the addicts: "Well, this is awful, this feels bad, but I'm stuck with this person because I don't have any healthier people in my life, this is just my fate." Now I can see that that reflex hasn't served me well at all. And that it's better to have no one than to have people who cause repeated pain. At least when you have no one, you have a space that can make way for healthy supportive friends.
Don't know if this is making any sense. It's so hard to change old patterns, and it's a lifelong journey, isn't it? I am grateful to you all - part of my new life with supportive people.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 10:05:08 AM
hotrod said
Mar 22, 2018
((Mattie)) I so understand. and am sorry that you re experiencing this disconnect. I know that prior to program I had developed tools that kept me from ever asking anyone for help,-- because when i did they always acted as you have experienced . Today i have surrounded myself with supportive friends and know if i ask for help I will receive it . When my son passed the outpouring of love and support i felt was uplifting.
Mattie you are not alone. I am holding you and your son in my prayers
The1975jen said
Mar 22, 2018
i would also suggest it is the personality of the al-anoner to isolate and be hesitant to ask for help. Or maybe i should speak for myself :) it's not wrong to ask for help. Some people enjoy helping. we are here to listen always :)
Jenny
el-cee said
Mar 22, 2018
Thanks for sharing, I have been thinking of this lately too. Living with alcoholism means I have had really low standards in terms of how others treat me, Ive got abandonment kind of issues so really people could do and behave anyway towards me and I would find a way to justify it because I couldn't bare the thought of them rejecting me or leaving me.
I had no idea there was such a thing as unacceptable behaviour because I accepted everything and was at the mercy of others hoping they would be the ones to change. I've gotten a bit better. I still can't completely let go of people even if they aren't good for me, I just keep them at arm's length a lot more. I can't cut the ties.
So, I have a friend who is completely self absorbed, she phones me and honestly she can talk for an hour without enquiring about me in any way. No kidding. I think to myself why do I keep her in my life? Its partly all the old issues but I feel like its good for me to practice my program, so I have resentments often for her and I try writing it out and writing all the things I like about her and I try hard to see her assets, then the resentment passes. I've got a lot of people like her in my life, self absorbed selfish people, kind of unavailable people. Its my doing, Ive chosen them and I've not quite worked out the reasons yet. Its the same reason I chose and alcoholic for a partner. Is it low self esteem, I wont get any better? or fear of rejection?
I suspect the answers for you and me are inside, its about us and not them. Well I think that the healthier I get the more I attract healthy people. I've found though that I only see healthy in Al Anon and rarely in the outside world, well my definition of healthy. I think letting go of expectations of others is the key though. Its the expectations of others that they can't live up to and then I take it personally and a resentment is born. The resentment then hurts only me and interferes with me having peace and infects my vision. I can't see the good in the World. I understand where your coming from and I like Hotrod's way of putting it 'disconnect.'
SerenityRUS said
Mar 22, 2018
Mattie big hugs you have sooo been in my thoughts, I can so fully relate to your share.
I'm an only child of an only child, who is a massive drama queen to boot ... lol .. there is NO ONE ELSE .. sometimes that makes things a whole lot easier in the sense that there is no one to fight with over "stuff" and I make the best decisions I can on what I know about my mom. That also means when push comes to shove guess who is the person who needs to be there and sometimes that is overwhelming .. I do worry about her health more mental than physical at this point. I am grateful she seems to be doing well despite her 76 years of age.
I have struggled with the same issue. I have a couple of friends who I KNOW I can count on .. if I called them and said I really need you they would so be there no questions asked they would just sit and hold my hand. You have no idea how grateful I am to have that .. I have another girlfriend who I love dearly however I know what she says and what she does are two different things.
Even with my boyfriend I will sometimes hesitate because it just feels like even if it's not true that he's not really there .. although honestly outside of just not being perfect .. lol .. because he's got his own stuff to work on just like me.
I think I started looking at what kind of friend I was when I moved to TX .. was I the kind of person who meant what I said or was I getting back what I put out. It is easy to say if you need anything .. when it comes to delivery what was I putting out there and was I picking friends based upon expecting to be let down. Maybe a little of both .. I had to laugh at myself the other day ..
There is a new CTO or some crazy named CIO executive at our office now .. bless his heart .. it is very obvious to me that he comes from a very military background and I make him very uncomfortable and it's not me .. it's women who have an opinion or make statements .. and I make statements about the obvious and I have opinions .. seriously if you don't want to know .. don't ask .. LOL .. so you can imagine that his eyeballs roll from time to time. He's never rude .. I find him interesting to watch .. given my personality I have to poke from time to time just because I like to gauge reactions around me .. anyway .. "how are you" .. people ask that statement and honestly I don't think anyone really wants to know unless you truly know that person and want to know how they are doing .. I know he's said that to me a couple of times when we are all in a group and regretted it immediately .. LOL ... My point I guess is .. find the people who truly want to know how you are vs the ones who say that out of habit during the day .. I think people out of perceived courtesy say that statement and don't realize someone may actually tell them how they are .. I like the people around me who sincerely ask me how I am and want to know. Those are the people I know I can count on. I find myself making that statement and someone says how they are doing and I'm thinking to myself .. I need to learn to say HI .. and move on ... just with some people.
I hope you are able to find some people to help you .. in moments of being incredibly stressed I miss the ones who can and will help because I am not asking the right person that question. Regardless about your parents right now .. you deserve support and you deserve to be able to find quality people who you can count on and I think it's a good thing that you are qualifying people around you .. because people who can't that's ok they aren't bad people .. I find that when I have quality people around me I do soooo much better.
My oldest is getting a lesson in how to ask for help and the fact that you have to follow up with more questions .. so if I ask for help and I get "no" for an answer did I ask the right question .. what he's learning to do is ask .. hey if you can't help me is there someone else who can? I found out that lesson while divorcing .. ask ask ask ask ask .. I don't care how many people I asked and I asked the one's who made the calculated error of asking how I was doing for help as well.
You are in my thoughts and prayers and I truly hope you are finding the help that you deserve as well as support .. because you gotta take care of you and that's something you preach to all of us here and I have taken many lessons from you in that area .. so sometimes reflecting in what I have shared are some of the answers I need.
Take what you like ... big hugs and very much in support S :)
PS - How are YOU doing?
Stan1 said
Mar 22, 2018
Oh (((Mattie))) Please feel it is okay to cry and it is okay to feel the pain of loss. I grew up in a family where it was not acceptable to express sad or what was considered weak emotions. I can still remember after a few years in alanon and some counselling in my back pocket. ..I darn near levitated at an evening dinner when my mother told my 5 year old niece that crying wasn't allowed at the table and she should go to your room. I believe I told my mother NO you will not teach this child that it is not okay to cry. Oh my did the table get silent and my Mom seemed at a loss for words.
I'm sorry to hear that some who you thought might help are only talking the talk. Think sometimes people just feel they should just say something comforting. I have a different approach I just do something that I would appreciate if I was grieving. Such as deliver a hot cooked meal or a bag of groceries. I can't do that for you as we are online family but I can put my arms around (((you))) and give a big hug and a listening ear.
Bo said
Mar 22, 2018
Mattie, what an amazing post!!! Thank you so very much for posting this. It is excellent insight and perspective.
So, I get it and it is making a great deal of sense to me -- but I have a question -- and perhaps you can elaborate or explain a bit so that I can understand this better as it relates to what you are saying.
Can you help me connect the dots between: a) relying on people who have you down pretty badly, and, b) being gravitated to people who are so emotionally unhealthy that they are just too self-absorbed and incapable of putting someone else first (for a while, even in an emergency).
Do those two things connect for you? Or am I not reading it as you meant. I am trying to see what one has to do with the other I guess.
I always felt that quality, healthy, good people, were available -- I just didn't think there were many of them out there! LOL.
My dad always said...if you go through life expecting everyone to live up to your standards...then many many people are going to disappoint you. While we had an entire discussion on that after he told, and I've taught course-work around these types of things -- it allows me to look at me.
I did always feel if I spent too much time, got too caught up in, etc., the lives of unhealthy, co-dependent, etc., people...then I wouldn't have time for the good and healthy people. I might not be emotionally available for that relationship.
Me, I focus on not shopping for bread in a hardware store any more.
Thanks again.
Iamhere said
Mar 22, 2018
In my case, as with most things about 'me', I had to learn that my picker was defective....I too gravitated towards wounded souls as I wanted to fix them, help them, change them. This was a part of how I 'did life' as hanging with wounded souls gave me false esteem or sense of worth.
I am grateful for my sponsor pointing this out. And it wasn't so much that I needed to hang with the winners, it was more that I needed to seek out authentic people who were healthy, responsible and accountable. In order to attract these folks, I had to practice this program as best I could. They are out there and they are usually not the 'smartest person in the room' nor the 'know-it-all person on every subject'. Rather they are the ones that seek to understand, don't offer advice, don't complain always about their lot in life, etc. - the opposite of who I used to be.
I also agree that it is really hard to ask for help/support from healthy people. Yet, when I am able to find my courage and ask, the grace is genuine and I don't feel that 'I owe them one'. I am one who used to prefer to isolate if I couldn't be the smartest, best, most helpful person in the room. I had to fight hard to just get out of the house, go to meetings, play sports, etc. But I knew deep down from those who came before me that if I wanted a full, joyful life, I had to explore things I enjoy. I am not sure why I felt that 'adulting' meant no more fun, playing, etc. Yet, I had that in my brain someplace...
I have witnessed program members who have walked into a room, shared their loss, asked for support and be surrounded by love, grace, kindness and more. I readily admit I've not done that, but I've not felt the need. Yet, to witness 'this' is one of the many miracles of this program for me. We are here as best we can be and I'm sending you supportive (((hugs))) from my small piece of the world. Be gentle with you and take good care.
Mattie said
Mar 22, 2018
"I had no idea there was such a thing as unacceptable behaviour because I accepted everything" - el-cee that is brilliant, that is just how it has been - growing up, I didn't even know not accepting it was an option.
Bo, I'm not quite sure I understand the question, but I think, as Iamhere said it, my "picker" has been broken and I haven't usually filtered friends out for being incredibly self-absorbed - I've always just felt that I was lucky to have anyone pay any attention to me at all. I mean I have seen the problems with that in recent years, but that was the old way of feeling. And then the friends would let me down in time of need, but I'd go trailing back to them.
Today I was walking back from town, my head swimming with all the things I have to do - as I mentioned I am abroad and have been having a heck of a time changing my flights and cancelling the old flights and arranging ground transportation at the other end and meanwhile coordinating movers and funeral home and a lot of people who need to make decisions and have answers, and I was just feeling beyond stressed. A friend was walking with me on her way to the train station and she said, "Shall I come to your place and help you for a while and take a later train?" I could feel the old me almost panicking and hurrying to say "No, that's okay, I'm fine," but the new me said, "Boy, it's hard to accept help but I could really use some, that is so great, I would love it if you could come for a while." So she came over and we scurried around cleaning and making calls and reservations and she made me a cup of tea. I feel like this is the new me who has cultivated a friend who offers to do that, and then I am secure enough to acknowledge that I need help. Needless to say, when I spent my time trying to win over alcoholics or get attention from self-absorbed people, none of this would have happened. But now even though I have all this stuff to cope with, I am feeling kind of warm and happy that my friend came and helped me. The great thing about practicing the new ways is that the rewards are so big and so comforting.
Iamhere said
Mar 22, 2018
Mattie - good on you for accepting help and also finding comfort in it. I can relate to the first instinct of "no...I am OK" and really, really have to practice what's in my signature. When I pause, I am able to rely on HP to help me as I often don't even know what I need help with...living with this disease has made me into someone who still has to remember I don't have to have/be in control.
Continued thoughts and prayers headed your way!
el-cee said
Mar 23, 2018
Isnt that amazing. You asked for help, for a friend, you shared here and you got exactly what you needed. I find I always get what I need even if I don't want or like it. I think that partly why I dont cut friendships or relationships out completely, Im aware that every person has something to teach me about me on some level.
I've been under a special amount of stress lately (see other thread!) and I've been reflecting on support systems. There have been a few times in my life when I really, urgently needed a lot of support. Like the time I was taking care of my parents single-handedly when they were terminally ill. I am an only child and both my parents were only children, so there was no larger family available - though I know that having relatives doesn't automatically mean they're emotionally healthy and helpful. But in those stressful times and others, I tried to rely on my partner and my friends, and both partner and friends let me down pretty badly. I mean yelling at me for being tearful, saying that I was 'just trying to get attention and the problems weren't really that bad,' and other really unhealthy behavior.
So what I realized is that I have gravitated to people who are so emotionally unhealthy that they are just too self-absorbed and incapable of putting someone else first for a while, even in an emergency. I guess I didn't even know that there were people who weren't like that out there. Or I thought I had to make do with the crumbs, because healthier people just weren't available. Or they just wouldn't care for me.
But then what happens is that when an emergency happens, you have two big problems. You have the emergency, and you have the painful relationship with the person who can't offer support. And that person generally has taken up so much time and energy (they're like a black hole that absorbs all light) that you haven't cultivated healthier relationships that might be more supportive. It's like they block up the space for friends and relationships in your life, and your whole system is weak.
I'm really noticing now who is offering support and who is letting me down. Like friends who volunteer to do something and then when I ask them to do it, they agree and say they're doing it, but then they drop the ball and they hid that they didn't do it, and it ends up causing more trouble than if I'd just done it myself in the first place. And my reflex reaction is just the way I always reacted to the addicts: "Well, this is awful, this feels bad, but I'm stuck with this person because I don't have any healthier people in my life, this is just my fate." Now I can see that that reflex hasn't served me well at all. And that it's better to have no one than to have people who cause repeated pain. At least when you have no one, you have a space that can make way for healthy supportive friends.
Don't know if this is making any sense. It's so hard to change old patterns, and it's a lifelong journey, isn't it? I am grateful to you all - part of my new life with supportive people.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 22nd of March 2018 10:05:08 AM
((Mattie)) I so understand. and am sorry that you re experiencing this disconnect.
I know that prior to program I had developed tools that kept me from ever asking anyone for help,-- because when i did they always acted as you have experienced . Today i have surrounded myself with supportive friends and know if i ask for help I will receive it . When my son passed the outpouring of love and support i felt was uplifting.
Mattie you are not alone. I am holding you and your son in my prayers
Jenny
Thanks for sharing, I have been thinking of this lately too. Living with alcoholism means I have had really low standards in terms of how others treat me, Ive got abandonment kind of issues so really people could do and behave anyway towards me and I would find a way to justify it because I couldn't bare the thought of them rejecting me or leaving me.
I had no idea there was such a thing as unacceptable behaviour because I accepted everything and was at the mercy of others hoping they would be the ones to change. I've gotten a bit better. I still can't completely let go of people even if they aren't good for me, I just keep them at arm's length a lot more. I can't cut the ties.
So, I have a friend who is completely self absorbed, she phones me and honestly she can talk for an hour without enquiring about me in any way. No kidding. I think to myself why do I keep her in my life? Its partly all the old issues but I feel like its good for me to practice my program, so I have resentments often for her and I try writing it out and writing all the things I like about her and I try hard to see her assets, then the resentment passes. I've got a lot of people like her in my life, self absorbed selfish people, kind of unavailable people. Its my doing, Ive chosen them and I've not quite worked out the reasons yet. Its the same reason I chose and alcoholic for a partner. Is it low self esteem, I wont get any better? or fear of rejection?
I suspect the answers for you and me are inside, its about us and not them. Well I think that the healthier I get the more I attract healthy people. I've found though that I only see healthy in Al Anon and rarely in the outside world, well my definition of healthy. I think letting go of expectations of others is the key though. Its the expectations of others that they can't live up to and then I take it personally and a resentment is born. The resentment then hurts only me and interferes with me having peace and infects my vision. I can't see the good in the World. I understand where your coming from and I like Hotrod's way of putting it 'disconnect.'
I'm an only child of an only child, who is a massive drama queen to boot ... lol .. there is NO ONE ELSE .. sometimes that makes things a whole lot easier in the sense that there is no one to fight with over "stuff" and I make the best decisions I can on what I know about my mom. That also means when push comes to shove guess who is the person who needs to be there and sometimes that is overwhelming .. I do worry about her health more mental than physical at this point. I am grateful she seems to be doing well despite her 76 years of age.
I have struggled with the same issue. I have a couple of friends who I KNOW I can count on .. if I called them and said I really need you they would so be there no questions asked they would just sit and hold my hand. You have no idea how grateful I am to have that .. I have another girlfriend who I love dearly however I know what she says and what she does are two different things.
Even with my boyfriend I will sometimes hesitate because it just feels like even if it's not true that he's not really there .. although honestly outside of just not being perfect .. lol .. because he's got his own stuff to work on just like me.
I think I started looking at what kind of friend I was when I moved to TX .. was I the kind of person who meant what I said or was I getting back what I put out. It is easy to say if you need anything .. when it comes to delivery what was I putting out there and was I picking friends based upon expecting to be let down. Maybe a little of both .. I had to laugh at myself the other day ..
There is a new CTO or some crazy named CIO executive at our office now .. bless his heart .. it is very obvious to me that he comes from a very military background and I make him very uncomfortable and it's not me .. it's women who have an opinion or make statements .. and I make statements about the obvious and I have opinions .. seriously if you don't want to know .. don't ask .. LOL .. so you can imagine that his eyeballs roll from time to time. He's never rude .. I find him interesting to watch .. given my personality I have to poke from time to time just because I like to gauge reactions around me .. anyway .. "how are you" .. people ask that statement and honestly I don't think anyone really wants to know unless you truly know that person and want to know how they are doing .. I know he's said that to me a couple of times when we are all in a group and regretted it immediately .. LOL ... My point I guess is .. find the people who truly want to know how you are vs the ones who say that out of habit during the day .. I think people out of perceived courtesy say that statement and don't realize someone may actually tell them how they are .. I like the people around me who sincerely ask me how I am and want to know. Those are the people I know I can count on. I find myself making that statement and someone says how they are doing and I'm thinking to myself .. I need to learn to say HI .. and move on ... just with some people.
I hope you are able to find some people to help you .. in moments of being incredibly stressed I miss the ones who can and will help because I am not asking the right person that question. Regardless about your parents right now .. you deserve support and you deserve to be able to find quality people who you can count on and I think it's a good thing that you are qualifying people around you .. because people who can't that's ok they aren't bad people .. I find that when I have quality people around me I do soooo much better.
My oldest is getting a lesson in how to ask for help and the fact that you have to follow up with more questions .. so if I ask for help and I get "no" for an answer did I ask the right question .. what he's learning to do is ask .. hey if you can't help me is there someone else who can? I found out that lesson while divorcing .. ask ask ask ask ask .. I don't care how many people I asked and I asked the one's who made the calculated error of asking how I was doing for help as well.
You are in my thoughts and prayers and I truly hope you are finding the help that you deserve as well as support .. because you gotta take care of you and that's something you preach to all of us here and I have taken many lessons from you in that area .. so sometimes reflecting in what I have shared are some of the answers I need.
Take what you like ... big hugs and very much in support S :)
PS - How are YOU doing?
I'm sorry to hear that some who you thought might help are only talking the talk. Think sometimes people just feel they should just say something comforting. I have a different approach I just do something that I would appreciate if I was grieving. Such as deliver a hot cooked meal or a bag of groceries. I can't do that for you as we are online family but I can put my arms around (((you))) and give a big hug and a listening ear.
So, I get it and it is making a great deal of sense to me -- but I have a question -- and perhaps you can elaborate or explain a bit so that I can understand this better as it relates to what you are saying.
Can you help me connect the dots between: a) relying on people who have you down pretty badly, and, b) being gravitated to people who are so emotionally unhealthy that they are just too self-absorbed and incapable of putting someone else first (for a while, even in an emergency).
Do those two things connect for you? Or am I not reading it as you meant. I am trying to see what one has to do with the other I guess.
I always felt that quality, healthy, good people, were available -- I just didn't think there were many of them out there! LOL.
My dad always said...if you go through life expecting everyone to live up to your standards...then many many people are going to disappoint you. While we had an entire discussion on that after he told, and I've taught course-work around these types of things -- it allows me to look at me.
I did always feel if I spent too much time, got too caught up in, etc., the lives of unhealthy, co-dependent, etc., people...then I wouldn't have time for the good and healthy people. I might not be emotionally available for that relationship.
Me, I focus on not shopping for bread in a hardware store any more.
Thanks again.
I am grateful for my sponsor pointing this out. And it wasn't so much that I needed to hang with the winners, it was more that I needed to seek out authentic people who were healthy, responsible and accountable. In order to attract these folks, I had to practice this program as best I could. They are out there and they are usually not the 'smartest person in the room' nor the 'know-it-all person on every subject'. Rather they are the ones that seek to understand, don't offer advice, don't complain always about their lot in life, etc. - the opposite of who I used to be.
I also agree that it is really hard to ask for help/support from healthy people. Yet, when I am able to find my courage and ask, the grace is genuine and I don't feel that 'I owe them one'. I am one who used to prefer to isolate if I couldn't be the smartest, best, most helpful person in the room. I had to fight hard to just get out of the house, go to meetings, play sports, etc. But I knew deep down from those who came before me that if I wanted a full, joyful life, I had to explore things I enjoy. I am not sure why I felt that 'adulting' meant no more fun, playing, etc. Yet, I had that in my brain someplace...
I have witnessed program members who have walked into a room, shared their loss, asked for support and be surrounded by love, grace, kindness and more. I readily admit I've not done that, but I've not felt the need. Yet, to witness 'this' is one of the many miracles of this program for me. We are here as best we can be and I'm sending you supportive (((hugs))) from my small piece of the world. Be gentle with you and take good care.
"I had no idea there was such a thing as unacceptable behaviour because I accepted everything" - el-cee that is brilliant, that is just how it has been - growing up, I didn't even know not accepting it was an option.
Bo, I'm not quite sure I understand the question, but I think, as Iamhere said it, my "picker" has been broken and I haven't usually filtered friends out for being incredibly self-absorbed - I've always just felt that I was lucky to have anyone pay any attention to me at all. I mean I have seen the problems with that in recent years, but that was the old way of feeling. And then the friends would let me down in time of need, but I'd go trailing back to them.
Today I was walking back from town, my head swimming with all the things I have to do - as I mentioned I am abroad and have been having a heck of a time changing my flights and cancelling the old flights and arranging ground transportation at the other end and meanwhile coordinating movers and funeral home and a lot of people who need to make decisions and have answers, and I was just feeling beyond stressed. A friend was walking with me on her way to the train station and she said, "Shall I come to your place and help you for a while and take a later train?" I could feel the old me almost panicking and hurrying to say "No, that's okay, I'm fine," but the new me said, "Boy, it's hard to accept help but I could really use some, that is so great, I would love it if you could come for a while." So she came over and we scurried around cleaning and making calls and reservations and she made me a cup of tea. I feel like this is the new me who has cultivated a friend who offers to do that, and then I am secure enough to acknowledge that I need help. Needless to say, when I spent my time trying to win over alcoholics or get attention from self-absorbed people, none of this would have happened. But now even though I have all this stuff to cope with, I am feeling kind of warm and happy that my friend came and helped me. The great thing about practicing the new ways is that the rewards are so big and so comforting.
Continued thoughts and prayers headed your way!