My wife is an alcoholic and we are going through a hard time right now. She has been in rehab four times and it doesn't seem to help. She claims/states she doesn't want to stop drinking. I have been an enabler, and I know that - and I've made the tough decision to stop enabling her. A huge issue is, we now have a 2 1/2 year old, and a 1 year old baby. I work 8-5 and she is home with the kids. Recently, we have been in arguments and she has 3x in the past year taken the kids for up to 5-days, to a hotel, where she would just be there drinking with the kids. It's absolutely not safe, and I've had enough of it. Her biggest fear was letting her parents find out she's been drinking again. So the last time she took the kids, I told them. As if we didn't already have some marital issues, she is now placing blame on me for ruining her relationship with her parents. I gave her fair warning multiple times that if she keeps this up, I would go to her parents and reveal the truth. So when she took the kids last go round, I stuck to my word and called her mother.
Her mother told me I need to get her into rehab or some other sort of support. I've tried discussing this with my wife and her response is "she'll do what she wants". I told her if she continues to drink, and she's the main caregiver of the kids being home all day - that I will take the kids (per her mother's advice) like she has been taking them from me. When she was taking the kids before, her parents were paying for her to stay in hotels, and now that they know she's drinking again, they have/will cut her off per her mother. They also said they will pay for her rehab if I cannot afford it (but again, rehab has never worked for her, so I'm at a loss for what to do...)
She does not trust me, now that I've revealed the truth to her parents. I told her that is a consequence of her actions and she needs to accept that - which she won't - she only points fingers and makes excuses. I still love her and want to work through this with her - but she is saying that if she sobers up then she will do just that, then she'll take the kids, and leave me. I told her my main concern is both her and the kids safety. I told her go ahead an put me on the back burner. I told her if that's how she needs to get sober, then do it. Obviously, I don't want her to leave me. So I wonder, if she does get sober, will she come around and thank me in the end, or forever hold the grudge. She is not the forgiving type, and is "never wrong".
Forgive this rant being unorganized, but I'm just looking for any advice as to what to do, did I do the right thing, am I wrong etc...
-- Edited by GovnA on Tuesday 13th of March 2018 08:57:14 AM
The1975jen said
Mar 13, 2018
That is such a difficult position to be in. I completely understand and many of us have been there. Do you go to meetings? Keep coming back here and find a face-to-face meeting. It really does work.
My ESH is to keep the kid's safety your #1 priority. After that there is not right and wrong in my opinion. There is only what you thought was best at the time. If you get more al-anon tools, you may handle things differently in the future. Living with an alcoholic is more than most of us can handle on our own, and keep our own sanity.
I am going to go out on a limb and say most of our alcoholic qualifiers are not the "forgiving type". They deflect onto us. And we can learn how to make it better for ourselves and our children.
Jenny
Jill said
Mar 13, 2018
Hello and welcome to MIP
My experience is that alcoholics do not take responsibility for their actions until they enter recovery. My enabling was to get between the alcoholic and the consequences of his actions. Somehow it's always someone else's fault if they find someone else to blame. There's always someone else to blame.
I agree with Jenny that your children's safety is the most important issue.
With that, I encourage you to attend AlAnon meetings. The children need at least one "together" parent, and AlAnon helps us find our way back to sanity. Take care of you.
She will decide to embrace recovery when she's ready - or not. You can embrace your own. Living with alcoholism makes us very impaired.
Keep coming back.
Lyne said
Mar 13, 2018
Welcome GA-I do agree that the kids' safety is #1 above all the other problems. They cannot fend for themselves and your A could drink and drive? I too, was blamed for creating problems that was not fair or reality. My spouse's drinking clouded both her thinking and in time, mine as well. I became as sick as she was, just in a different way. I have only come out of the fog by attending Alanon meetings, getting a sponsor, and writing and reading on the board here. I made a decision that I could not take the pain and fear any longer, and put myself first. (My son is grown.). There is hope, and there is help. Keep coming back, Lyne
GovnA said
Mar 13, 2018
Thank you all. I'm very anxious, and afraid of what's to come next. I fear, because of what I did, she will end up leaving me. But as all agree, I have to make sure the kids are safe. It's very hard. I feel like I threw her under the bus and she'll never forgive me. I just got off the phone with her mother, who is coming to visit this weekend for our youngest daughters 1yr bday. Her mother wants to have BHOP (Behavioral Health) come and do an intervention. This gives me even more anxiety. I do not think she will be acceptable to an intervention, and it will further hinder our relationship and trust. In short, she's going to hate me if she doesn't already. Her mother said it's just the alcohol clouding her judgement right now and in time she'll forgive me, but I'm not buying it :( Tough love = Tough times and a lot of anxiety.
serenity47 said
Mar 13, 2018
So sorry you are going through this along with your little ones. Safety for the little ones is paramount. In my experience my loved one didn't get sober until she was ready to do the work. No matter how good the rehab was or how much it cost. I had to step out of the hula hoop of craziness and focus on myself. I had tried every conceivable way to "help" her until I had driven myself into the ground. Nothing changes if nothing changes, so I finally stopped spinning my wheels and sought help for myself. I hope you are able to find yourself some al anon meetings in your area and get support for yourself.
The1975jen said
Mar 13, 2018
Your fears and anxieties are normal, but it doesn't have to keep going this way. You can find more serenity and peace and happiness for the whole family. I wouldn't feel I had to move forward with Mother in law's suggestion, I would take time to absorb the idea and then move forward with what I thought was best. Alanon taught me I don't always have to react to everything and lose myself in the process.
Also I want to be sure you know there are online meetings here in the chatroom.
Jenny
SerenityRUS said
Mar 13, 2018
Hugs GovnA,
I hope you will find face to face meetings and keep coming back.
Something you said more than once and struck a chord with me is the issue of the focus being about what she thinks and how she feels.
What about you?
When I came to Alanon I could tell you all about my sig other .. what I couldn't tell you was my favorite color, what I liked to eat, how did I feel. I forgot how to laugh and totally forgot how to play because I was so wrapped up in my XAH (yes sometimes that happens) that I forgot me. As I discovered me I realized that the relationship I was so afraid to loose wasn't what was healthy for either of us regardless of my perception of love towards my XAH. Right now I don't like him .. however that's another story. That's how I process and we are all different in that regard. What Alanon gave back to me was my ability to go .. oh .. huh .. I didn't remember I had choices and things I could do differently and so did my XAH.
It was my children that made me realize things could not continue the way they were .. they had no choice and no voice at that point and time and needed space to figure that out for themselves.
Keep coming back and keep reaching out because that is where the insanity stopped and the sanity began to grow.
Big hugs S :)
Bo said
Mar 13, 2018
Welcome...when I walked into my first face to face alanon meeting, my wife too was an alcoholic, and we too were going through a very bad time. Many rehabs, IOP's, hospital visits, and more. None of that helped...only because...my wife did not want to quit drinking and get better. Period. That's why none of it helped. So, she made her decision, and that left me with my decision. What was I going to do? I went to face to face alanon meetings, I got a sponsor, I did readings every single day, and I got right to work with my sponsor. I called him. A lot. I met with him. A lot. I did all the work and learned. And, I got better.
That's my experience and the best advice I can give.
As far as your questions...you are so immersed in the chaos, turmoil, and havoc...that as much as we know she is not thinking clearly, rationally, etc. -- the bigger problem is neither are you. I would strongly suggest you talk to an attorney as well and get some sound, quality, legal advice (vis a vis her taking the kids and going to hotels, and drinking, you taking the kids, and your concern that if she sobers up she will take the kids and leave you).
Good luck.
GovnA said
Mar 13, 2018
Thanks again, have read all above and am soaking it in. Today is one of those bad days as well, as she's leashing out at me, coming after my first post. Sigh.
Iamhere said
Mar 13, 2018
Welcome to MIP GovnA - glad you found us and so glad that you shared...I too am going to suggest that keeping the kids safe by any means necessary is priority number one. I am also going to suggest getting yourself to Al-Anon meetings as your kids deserve a sane parent...the disease of alcoholism is dreadful, progressive, powerful and baffling. We (family and friends) are also affected, thus it's considered a family disease. We tend to enable, over-do, walk on eggshells and get our self-esteem/purpose all wrapped up in what they are/are not doing. All the while, most/many of us are intelligent persons who become uncertain about much - simply because this disease is so baffling.
I needed recovery to realize I too was important. It was not a reflection on me that my 'guys' were alcoholics. I could no more change them than I could change the weather. Yet - before recovery, I sure hoped something I did, said, suggested, threatened, etc. would change them and it did not. Sometimes, a change would happen yet it was not lasting as the disease is more powerful that the person. I believe without formal recovery of some sort, the disease will raise up at some point in some fashion.
Al-Anon taught me that I did not Cause any of 'this', I can't Control any of 'this' and I can't Cure an of 'this'....also know as the three C(s). I also learned that I mattered, and I deserved the have joy, serenity and sanity. I learned to stop giving my power away to others, alcoholics and beyond and to keep my energy, focus and efforts on my self. When living with this disease, it's easy to forget that 'we' matter.
When mine were in bully mode and I was new, I would literally remove myself. I would take a walk, hide in the restroom, go to a meeting, etc. My kids were grown when I arrived, so I had more flexibility than those with littles at home. When they were young and I didn't have Al-Anon, we spent a ton of time at the library and McD's (play-place), parks, etc. I had to get creative and create space to find my peace of mind.
When I worked and my AH was 'in a mood', I would shut my phone off, block him or just ignore him - I did not want others to know (there) nor did I want to loose my job. I also felt that work time was my solace from the insanity at home so did all that I could to work at work and keep home at home.
Just for today, breathe in and be gentle with you. There is no such thing as a perfect person, perfect relationship, perfect program or other - we all just do the best we can One Day at a Time...And yes - deflection and blame are a common theme with the insanity of the disease. Sending you tons of positive thoughts and support - for me, the answers were in Al-Anon recovery. Keep coming back!!
GovnA said
Mar 13, 2018
Thanks for sharing and caring.
Right now, I have the toughest decision of my life to make. It really is. Whether or not to allow her mother to setup the intervention (it's up to me). I keep going back and forth. On the surface, I don't want to do it because of the immediate ramifications. On the other hand, it may need to be done. I say may need to be done only because I have more questions than answers. If she has already been to rehab 4x, what's going to be different this time? She doesn't want to stop drinking. And if she did want to stop drinking, she thinks she can (because she didn't drink at all through 2 pregnancies). I'm just not sure if it's what she needs. The other main issue with intervention and getting her back to rehab is, I see no way in the world she'll agree to leaving her babies for a month (even though they'd be looked after by her mother while I'm at work). It was hard enough last time around having her just leave her dog behind for 30-days. Any advice/thoughts on this? I can see both sides, but if a something tragic were to happen and I didn't agree to an intervention, how would I ever forgive myself? And if I do the intervention, she'll probably never forgive me (especially if it doesn't work, again).
Iamhere said
Mar 13, 2018
I believe that her parents have skin in the game too. Just as we are powerless over the A, we are powerless over others too. If that's what her mother wants to do and you don't want to participate, there's a choice. If you want to, that's a choice. Both of my sons went to rehab more than 5 xs each and also landed in mental health facilities and jail. There is no way to know if/when one will hear something that will make a difference.
Trying to predict if it will work, if she'll be mad(der), etc. is probably not productive. I made it through tough decisions like this considering the alternative choices, and often there were not any. I personally slept better when mine were in jail or treatment so there's that...
Jerry F said
Mar 14, 2018
Aloha GovnA and good for you in hanging on and listening to others who have been and may now be where you are at. That was difficult for me when I first arrived also because I thought I was supposed to have all the answers until I realized that I didn't know all the problem. My wife was an alcoholic/Addict and I also had the problem in time I came to understand that what was best for me was to be patient and learn as much as I could about what was going on. One early awareness was that alcohol was and is a mind and mood altering chemical and there was no way either my wife or I would claim sanity...we didn't know where or when it was available ...I finally caved into the program of the Al-Anon Family Groups and accepted for me that I was going to have to change how I was living...ugh!! My wife like yours was adamant that she would continue to drink, drug and behave the way she decided to and I fell back on the first step of all of our step, "Admitted I was powerless over alcohol/alcoholism/alcoholic and that my life had indeed become unmanageable...In time that sunk in 100percent and I quit every effort in trying to rescue her. The kids went to their grandparents and I went where ever the program and my Higher Power directed me to go. In time (lots of it) she got sober and clean and we were no longer married and still we loved each other without a reason to be married. Her sober journey is one of the miracles I have witnessed as mine also is. I gave up the idea that my peace of mind and serenity and happiness was determinant on her sobriety and took on the life I now have.
We only work this program of recovery one day at a time, one hour at a time because that is what is required when we are up against this mind and mood and life changing disease which is fatal and can only be arrested by total abstinence.
We are in support of your journey. Keep coming back. Listen and learn as much as you can about this disease and practice, practice, practice the suggestions that come thru the program. (((((hugs)))))
GovnA said
Mar 14, 2018
Thanks. All of this helps. I put what I've learned thus far to good use, last night, as when I got home from work, she was still drinking. Rather than getting mad at her externally, and confronting her about it. I just ignored it. I didn't argue with her, and there were no arguments last night.
I have to make my decision today about the intervention. I'm 99% going to tell her mother that it's probably best if I am not involved. I just don't think me being there will do any good as my wife does not to hear a word of what I say and it will just make her even more frustrated and mad. Furthermore, to help my relationship situation, her mother stated that if I didn't want to be involved, she'll not tell me anything more about it so I won't know if it's going to happen and can still claim some ignorance. I am going to, today, make a list of pros and cons in regards to my being there, then make my final decision.
The1975jen said
Mar 14, 2018
GovnA, good for you! Some peace and quiet goes a long way :) you don't have to all the answers today. A list to help you sort out your thoughts is great. Keep coming back!
Iamhere said
Mar 14, 2018
(((Govna))) - love your share....what I hear is that you made some small changes, and got peace! In a simplified nutshell, that's kind of how recovery works. We put ourselves first, consider the outcome desired, then align our actions accordingly. I'm very much a 'write it down' processing person - so I also applaud your thoughts of considering pros/cons. It does sound as if her mom/parents are willing to be of support to you, her and your kids. That's awesome and perhaps they can say something that is heard differently.
In my experience, my alcoholics were resentful of me most of the time. They saw me as the wall between themselves and alcohol. I had to learn to QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally. When I stopped absorbing their chaos, the dance changed a bit...meetings, sponsor, program, boundaries and detaching all were extremely helpful for me.
Keep doing you one day at a time and don't forget to breathe....in support!
GovnA said
Mar 14, 2018
Yes, step by step, day by day, and right now minute by minute. I'm physically sick to my stomach right now, balled up with anxiety. I spoke to the interventionist, and he agrees that the best way to get my wife to commit voluntarily will be if I'm not there. So that she doesn't try to defer, or change the attention to me. I still have to write a letter though, so she will know I was involved. But I've come to terms with that. It has to be done. This whole thing scares me. Everything about it, from the addiction down to the intervention. They want my permission to forcefully make her go to rehab if she doesn't voluntarily. I absolutely hate that approach. Yet, I've verbally agreed to it. The thing that really got me, was what the interventionist said. He said, you don't want your kids to look up on the mantle and see a picture of mommy and have them ask why she's not here anymore. That literally choked me up and broke me down.
I'm a mess right now.
hotrod said
Mar 14, 2018
((Govna)))) good job. This is not an easy path that we travel, however you are not alone. Sending prayers for you and your family. Continue to recite the serenity prayer and sharing here
-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 14th of March 2018 01:02:14 PM
GovnA said
Mar 23, 2018
So, here's an update. We had the intervention on Tuesday. I was not in attendance as to not distract my wife as we figured she'd just want to argue with me. I stayed close by just in case I was needed. Just like I'd imagined, she was furious and not cooperating, and I received a call during the intervention that I needed to come home b/c she wasn't cooperating. She was barricaded in our bedroom when I arrived (drinking more), and we finally got her to come back downstairs. And again, like I'd imagined, all that she wanted to do was argue with me and point fingers at me, and the interventionist could not control her cross-talk. It came down to me just eating crow, agreeing with every bad thing she said about me (most of it not true). She said she'd go to rehab if I stopped lying, so I agreed with everything she said until she caught on and realized I was just yessing her. But she quickly forgot due to the alcohol and I continued to give one word answers and not engage in argument. We finally got her to the facility.
She snuck her phone in (which she's tried every time, but never successful, this time she was). She kept calling her mother and I, yelling and swearing at us. Texting us the same. I reported to the facility that she still had her phone, but they couldn't find it, so we cancelled her service the next day. She was saying she was going to leave. So we called to see if she was still there, and she took everyone off of the release and wouldn't give us any info.
She put her mother back on the release and has been calling her everyday. She's trying to manipulate her way out of staying, and says she doesn't need to be there and wants to do outpatient care. The only thing keeping her there is...her mother informed her that if she tries to come home, I will be filing a restraining order against her and taking the kids, and her mother would not support her in any way (i.e. money). So she keeps calling trying to manipulate her mother in to agreeing to "letting" her leave after detox. Her mother is standing her ground and is not falling for her "crap", though she may be wearing her down a little.
Any way, it's a work in progress (and I know it Always will be). It's pretty stressful obviously, and not knowing the outcome/s (her getting sober and our relationship) is hard to bare. I will be going to Al Anon meetings starting today if I can find one or tomorrow.
Iamhere said
Mar 23, 2018
Govna - thanks for the update. You all have been in my thoughts and prayers! I do encourage you to get yourself to the meeting/s as you've planned. I believe you will be pleasantly surprised by the support available in the fellowship of the rooms. Continued positive energy, thoughts and prayers headed your way...
hotrod said
Mar 23, 2018
((Govna))you did well. I am sending prayers for you and your family
MeTwo2 said
Mar 23, 2018
i love the comment too by jenny up there that brings the sanity reminder when we question our own .. most alcoholics are not the forgiving type .. i needed that reminder too for a friend effecting me lately who sure is beginning to remind me a lot of a dry alcoholic .. i think it's normal to become 2nd guessers and wonder what 'we are doing or did do wrong ? this can't be easy for you . Please try face to face meetings & heart hugs your way !! lots of good feeds in this thread .. please also keep coming back and updating .. this is a great site with online meetings here which are good too .. links at top of page with times ! .. (((( glad you're here )))))
MeTwo2 said
Mar 23, 2018
was reminded for me too . when i said this can't be easy for you .. sometimes we expect (hope) to find simple solutions to very difficult situations .. meetings do help to simplify things in us through better understanding .. still moving through myself ..
Jerry F said
Mar 23, 2018
Govna...keep on keeping on cause this program does work when we work it...No the alcoholic isn't going to work it this one is yours. I remember as a family therapist working in a in/out patient family recovery program, teaching the parents, grand-parents, siblings and others what tough love sounded like, moved like, how it worked and the like and that part of the process evoked the most amount of anger from the alcoholic and addict which was at times the only evidence that it was and would work. Tough love is awesome when it works for the non alcoholic and usually the best offence in the face of the disease.
I pray it continues to work for you. ((((hugs))))
Mattie said
Mar 25, 2018
I've read that interventions rarely work unless the person is obviously committed to recovery, and the same holds for rehab. And even then it is hard. As you've seen, when they're not personally dedicated to recovery, they will just throw up barrier after barrier. You can force her into rehab ten or twenty more times, but she has to want it on her own, and that comes on her own schedule if at all.
So far all your actions have been about changing her. I don't know if you have a meeting? If so, you may know the Three C's: you didn't Cause it, you can't Cure it, you can't Control it. The third C seems relevant here. If you could control it, things would be different by now. What you haven't focused on yet, if I understand correctly, is what it takes most of us a long time to focus on: protecting and healing ourselves and our kids.
As is obvious, no kid should be holed up for 5 days in a hotel room with a drunk parent - that is why you got the rehabs going in the first place. I know it will probably be complicated to figure out how to behave as a single parent with sole responsibility for the kids. That is what you've been in effect all along, but this time for real. I had to imagine that my alcoholic husband had been hit by a bus and was in the hospital for six months, or had run away to South America with a floozy. I had to just imagine him gone and unavailable. Because someone who wasn't sober enough to keep the kids safe was just as good as gone.
Then it required some fancy footwork to arrange for childcare, as it does for all single parents. But our children are the most precious thing we have, and they can't defend themselves. They rely on us utterly.
I'm suggesting this not as a way to manipulate your wife into recovery, but as a way to move forward and have your and your kids' lives be whole and okay even without her being in recovery. It's possible that losing custody of her kids may be another step towards your wife's recovery. But remember that statistically, most alcoholics never recover. That means that you can't wait until she's sober before you take care of yourself and your kids.
My lawyer told me to document everything and to get everything squared away legally, and that served me well. The other thing that I should have done earlier was to find a good Al-Anon meeting and find a sponsor. That would have saved me a lot of grief.
Take care of yourself.
Bo said
Mar 25, 2018
Excellent points/suggestions Mattie. Thank you for posting. It reminds me of a discussion I had with a leading expert -- and he said the exact same thing. I found the conversation fascinating from the perspective that it all came down to whether or not the alcoholic/addict "wanted" to get better. Truly wanted to get better. That's it. That's all. Period.
He explained to me that all of the studies, all of the research, with all of these factors and variables taken into consideration -- in short, the alcoholic/addict has a much, much higher percentage of success for recovery if they go to rehab because they truly want to get better. If they don't want to get better, and they go or say yes, because they were threatened with divorce, getting thrown out, whatever -- different story. After hearing all of this, ironically, it sounded simple, and after so many years of going to alanon, I realized the core of all of it...does the alcoholic/addict want to get better. Truly and simply, want to get better. Because they want to. Not for other reasons.
My step-son went to 8 rehabs, 10 IOP's, jail 4 times, and countless other "I want to get clean and sober" incidents. Throughout all of it, each and every time -- he chose to go to rehab, go to IOP, go to meetings, in order to -- avoid jail, avoid getting thrown out, avoid having his girlfriend leave or get thrown out of his house, whatever. He didn't want to get better. He just wanted to avoid some consequence. My ex AW, same. She had said, she never really wanted to quit drinking.
What I have always found most interesting was the post relapse, post release from jail, rehab, etc. What does the alcoholic/addict do? The alcoholic/addict, who has been clean and sober and been in recovery for a period of time -- they relapse. What do they do? What actions do they take? Just for me, to me, that says it all.
You are so right Mattie...even then it's very hard!!!
For me, how does someone want to live their life? And when I was at my rock bottom, at my worst, when I was in my disease...how did I want to live my life? Thanks again Mattie.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 25th of March 2018 07:47:13 AM
Iamhere said
Mar 25, 2018
I can share that tough love from my parents to me did not work. However, nudges from the judge did. I had absolutely no intention of staying sober when I landed in a treatment center more than 30 years ago at the suggestion/direction of a judge. It was my full intent to get through my year+ of parole, and then return to my preferred life-style choices. Yet, even when I denied I was affected directly by the disease and that I had a problem with mind-altering substances, something caught my soul, and when I completed all my requirements, I chose recovery on a daily basis.
I have two sons, both of whom have been to treatment more than 5+ times each. They've also been in jail, homeless, mental health lock-ups, etc. They did not want to get sober, and also wanted to avoid consequences/pain. Yet, here we are, more than 10 years from onset and for today, they are sober.
No statistics, experts or anything else can predict if/when one will get sober. There is no law of averages, consistent bottom or common event that leads one to get sober. Each experience, just as in Al-Anon is unique and what we think we know - we do not. I believe that no effort, large or small, is done in waste. My own experience and that of my sons suggest that each treatment center, each event, etc. all taught us something about the disease, the insanity, the possible outcomes, etc.
What one suggests doesn't work is not how recovering people look at it. We consider seeds are planted, and when they will root remains to be seen just as more will be revealed. As a parent, I cautioned my boys extensively, and they had all kinds of substance abuse awareness education through the school system. Yet, nothing but their own experience and the counsel of others who truly understood the disease helped them see and accept they were sick with the disease.
I fully agree with the data - many things do not 'work' yet I don't agree always with what's defined as 'working'. Expecting an alcoholic to go away for a period of time and never drink again is like expecting a cancer patient who has reached remission with the disease to never have cancer again. It's a miracle if it goes that way, yet it seldom does nor is it realistic.
I applaud tough love, interventions and any other effort one is willing to try to help a loved one get sober. Like all in recovery, we take the action that seems to apply to our situation, and leave the outcomes up to a HP. There is not a mountain I would not have moved to lead my son's to sobriety and serenity. I stepped away when they followed the disease willingly and actively, but anytime they reached out, even if I suspected hidden agendas, I offered my service as a fellow person in recovery as well as their mother. As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
GovnA said
Mar 26, 2018
Thanks for the comments and sharing. I'm soaking in a lot. I also did attend my first Al Anon meeting this weekend.
Thankfully, my wife is still in rehab. There are some negatives that occurred this weekend, but also some positive. According to my wife, (at first) the main reason she wants to do outpatient care instead is b/c she can't fully focus with not seeing her kids for 30-days. I understand that. This weekend, she shifted gears and wrote a four page explanation as to why the facility she is at will not help her. Within the four pages, nothing mentioned the children. She wrote out her whole daily schedule in the notepad, and pointed out that everyone has 6-hours of downtime every day. She said there's nothing to do but sit around and smoke cigarettes (she doesn't smoke, but is now, and usually does when she is in rehab). She said it's not like it used to be there, they didn't give her an AA workbook, no homework, etc... She also said there are 35 men there and only 7 women, and that she's sick and tired of getting hit on. She'd mentioned that the company/rehab is selling and it's apparent that nobody there cares any more, said she saw a man and woman having sex in a closet - they got busted - and didn't get in any trouble. Her mother is calling the Director of the facility today to get to the bottom of this, she'll also be speaking with her therapist there. If these things are true, we are going to have to move her to another facility.
The positive in this is...she didn't ask to come home this time, she stated her case and told her mother to find her another facility. Again, she said nobody there is focused - so it sounds like she wants to get focused on recovery.
I'll know more today after the calls with the facility.
-- Edited by GovnA on Monday 26th of March 2018 08:17:46 AM
Stan1 said
Mar 26, 2018
(((Govna))) Thank you for the update on your progress and so many great shares. I had to put my health and welfare first when my RAH was active because our children needed and deserved one sane parent and at that time my partner had no intention of sobriety. I was very afraid as I realized that I had to take action to protect assets for myself and put boundaries in place for the safety of the children. At the time I only worked part-time so reluctantly filed for legal separation. Thankfully I found support and friendship through the program during this time. I learned to focus on me and leave my then
AH to his life. We were separated for over 2 years. The children and I had legs of support as we learned to Live and Let Live. Somewhere along this path my AH encountered enough consequences and HE chose the path of sobriety. I never asked him then or now about his program as it belongs to him not me. I pray that you and your familk will find legs of support for your journey. One Step at a Time gently achieves progress.
Bo said
Mar 26, 2018
So many excellent comments here, and hearing others' perspective, experience, etc., on "tough love" is in my opinion a tremendous benefit. Early on, before I found recovery, while tough love took on a certain definition, I was still in the anger and resentment. Thus, I wasn't detaching, I was still tirying to put forth touch love. For me, there was a huge difference. Detaching and allowing the alcoholic/addict to realize the consequences of their own actions -- for me -- was different than tough love. Detaching meant I could still be there for them, in a healthy and supportive way. For them and for me. They didn't like it because it wasn't what they wanted and wasn't enough for them, but that's OK.
When I was in the tough love mode -- being that I still was in a place of anger and resentment, and I did not have acceptance -- I wasn't able to be there for the person, and certainly not in a healthy and supportive way. Sometimes, tough love almost seemed like a punishment, or punitive. I didn't like that. I wanted to be a better person, I wanted to be healthier.
For me, I never liked the generic terms of what worked, what didn't, etc. Looking back, now, in hindsight, I do know one thing -- my wife did not want to get better, get healthy, stop drinking, and start her recovery -- based upon anything anyone did. It only happened when she wanted to. So, today, I look at that as the what worked and what didn't, in the past tense, having the benefit of hindsight and the eventual result. Just my experience.
Iamhere said
Mar 26, 2018
(((Govna))) - so glad to hear that you made it to a meeting! I hope that it's one of more to come. It is in the rooms that I found others who truly made it safe for me to be authentic and share what the disease did to me and how it made me feel, react, think, etc. Kudos, kudos and more kudos!!
As far as the center and your AW, sounds promising. For me, even when mine were unpleasant about the rehab, the clients, the staff, etc. what I discovered is that I felt saner/safer that they were at least in a protected space without mind-altering substances. Hope is something I never let go of...
Keep on - one day at a time! Positive thoughts and prayers continue from my world to yours!
GovnA said
Mar 27, 2018
My wife put me on the release yesterday, and called me to tell me that. 30 second call, but hey, a step in the right direction.
Jerry F said
Mar 27, 2018
So fulfilling Post and one that brings back many memories of how I learned to work the program with the help of the loving fellowship I had...just like the fellowship here.
Thank you HP for the love and support. (((((hugs)))))
My wife is an alcoholic and we are going through a hard time right now. She has been in rehab four times and it doesn't seem to help. She claims/states she doesn't want to stop drinking. I have been an enabler, and I know that - and I've made the tough decision to stop enabling her. A huge issue is, we now have a 2 1/2 year old, and a 1 year old baby. I work 8-5 and she is home with the kids. Recently, we have been in arguments and she has 3x in the past year taken the kids for up to 5-days, to a hotel, where she would just be there drinking with the kids. It's absolutely not safe, and I've had enough of it. Her biggest fear was letting her parents find out she's been drinking again. So the last time she took the kids, I told them. As if we didn't already have some marital issues, she is now placing blame on me for ruining her relationship with her parents. I gave her fair warning multiple times that if she keeps this up, I would go to her parents and reveal the truth. So when she took the kids last go round, I stuck to my word and called her mother.
Her mother told me I need to get her into rehab or some other sort of support. I've tried discussing this with my wife and her response is "she'll do what she wants". I told her if she continues to drink, and she's the main caregiver of the kids being home all day - that I will take the kids (per her mother's advice) like she has been taking them from me. When she was taking the kids before, her parents were paying for her to stay in hotels, and now that they know she's drinking again, they have/will cut her off per her mother. They also said they will pay for her rehab if I cannot afford it (but again, rehab has never worked for her, so I'm at a loss for what to do...)
She does not trust me, now that I've revealed the truth to her parents. I told her that is a consequence of her actions and she needs to accept that - which she won't - she only points fingers and makes excuses. I still love her and want to work through this with her - but she is saying that if she sobers up then she will do just that, then she'll take the kids, and leave me. I told her my main concern is both her and the kids safety. I told her go ahead an put me on the back burner. I told her if that's how she needs to get sober, then do it. Obviously, I don't want her to leave me. So I wonder, if she does get sober, will she come around and thank me in the end, or forever hold the grudge. She is not the forgiving type, and is "never wrong".
Forgive this rant being unorganized, but I'm just looking for any advice as to what to do, did I do the right thing, am I wrong etc...
-- Edited by GovnA on Tuesday 13th of March 2018 08:57:14 AM
My ESH is to keep the kid's safety your #1 priority. After that there is not right and wrong in my opinion. There is only what you thought was best at the time. If you get more al-anon tools, you may handle things differently in the future. Living with an alcoholic is more than most of us can handle on our own, and keep our own sanity.
I am going to go out on a limb and say most of our alcoholic qualifiers are not the "forgiving type". They deflect onto us. And we can learn how to make it better for ourselves and our children.
Jenny
My experience is that alcoholics do not take responsibility for their actions until they enter recovery. My enabling was to get between the alcoholic and the consequences of his actions. Somehow it's always someone else's fault if they find someone else to blame. There's always someone else to blame.
I agree with Jenny that your children's safety is the most important issue.
With that, I encourage you to attend AlAnon meetings. The children need at least one "together" parent, and AlAnon helps us find our way back to sanity. Take care of you.
She will decide to embrace recovery when she's ready - or not. You can embrace your own. Living with alcoholism makes us very impaired.
Keep coming back.
Also I want to be sure you know there are online meetings here in the chatroom.
Jenny
I hope you will find face to face meetings and keep coming back.
Something you said more than once and struck a chord with me is the issue of the focus being about what she thinks and how she feels.
What about you?
When I came to Alanon I could tell you all about my sig other .. what I couldn't tell you was my favorite color, what I liked to eat, how did I feel. I forgot how to laugh and totally forgot how to play because I was so wrapped up in my XAH (yes sometimes that happens) that I forgot me. As I discovered me I realized that the relationship I was so afraid to loose wasn't what was healthy for either of us regardless of my perception of love towards my XAH. Right now I don't like him .. however that's another story. That's how I process and we are all different in that regard. What Alanon gave back to me was my ability to go .. oh .. huh .. I didn't remember I had choices and things I could do differently and so did my XAH.
It was my children that made me realize things could not continue the way they were .. they had no choice and no voice at that point and time and needed space to figure that out for themselves.
Keep coming back and keep reaching out because that is where the insanity stopped and the sanity began to grow.
Big hugs S :)
That's my experience and the best advice I can give.
As far as your questions...you are so immersed in the chaos, turmoil, and havoc...that as much as we know she is not thinking clearly, rationally, etc. -- the bigger problem is neither are you. I would strongly suggest you talk to an attorney as well and get some sound, quality, legal advice (vis a vis her taking the kids and going to hotels, and drinking, you taking the kids, and your concern that if she sobers up she will take the kids and leave you).
Good luck.
I needed recovery to realize I too was important. It was not a reflection on me that my 'guys' were alcoholics. I could no more change them than I could change the weather. Yet - before recovery, I sure hoped something I did, said, suggested, threatened, etc. would change them and it did not. Sometimes, a change would happen yet it was not lasting as the disease is more powerful that the person. I believe without formal recovery of some sort, the disease will raise up at some point in some fashion.
Al-Anon taught me that I did not Cause any of 'this', I can't Control any of 'this' and I can't Cure an of 'this'....also know as the three C(s). I also learned that I mattered, and I deserved the have joy, serenity and sanity. I learned to stop giving my power away to others, alcoholics and beyond and to keep my energy, focus and efforts on my self. When living with this disease, it's easy to forget that 'we' matter.
When mine were in bully mode and I was new, I would literally remove myself. I would take a walk, hide in the restroom, go to a meeting, etc. My kids were grown when I arrived, so I had more flexibility than those with littles at home. When they were young and I didn't have Al-Anon, we spent a ton of time at the library and McD's (play-place), parks, etc. I had to get creative and create space to find my peace of mind.
When I worked and my AH was 'in a mood', I would shut my phone off, block him or just ignore him - I did not want others to know (there) nor did I want to loose my job. I also felt that work time was my solace from the insanity at home so did all that I could to work at work and keep home at home.
Just for today, breathe in and be gentle with you. There is no such thing as a perfect person, perfect relationship, perfect program or other - we all just do the best we can One Day at a Time...And yes - deflection and blame are a common theme with the insanity of the disease. Sending you tons of positive thoughts and support - for me, the answers were in Al-Anon recovery. Keep coming back!!
Right now, I have the toughest decision of my life to make. It really is. Whether or not to allow her mother to setup the intervention (it's up to me). I keep going back and forth. On the surface, I don't want to do it because of the immediate ramifications. On the other hand, it may need to be done. I say may need to be done only because I have more questions than answers. If she has already been to rehab 4x, what's going to be different this time? She doesn't want to stop drinking. And if she did want to stop drinking, she thinks she can (because she didn't drink at all through 2 pregnancies). I'm just not sure if it's what she needs. The other main issue with intervention and getting her back to rehab is, I see no way in the world she'll agree to leaving her babies for a month (even though they'd be looked after by her mother while I'm at work). It was hard enough last time around having her just leave her dog behind for 30-days. Any advice/thoughts on this? I can see both sides, but if a something tragic were to happen and I didn't agree to an intervention, how would I ever forgive myself? And if I do the intervention, she'll probably never forgive me (especially if it doesn't work, again).
Trying to predict if it will work, if she'll be mad(der), etc. is probably not productive. I made it through tough decisions like this considering the alternative choices, and often there were not any. I personally slept better when mine were in jail or treatment so there's that...
Aloha GovnA and good for you in hanging on and listening to others who have been and may now be where you are at. That was difficult for me when I first arrived also because I thought I was supposed to have all the answers until I realized that I didn't know all the problem. My wife was an alcoholic/Addict and I also had the problem in time I came to understand that what was best for me was to be patient and learn as much as I could about what was going on. One early awareness was that alcohol was and is a mind and mood altering chemical and there was no way either my wife or I would claim sanity...we didn't know where or when it was available ...I finally caved into the program of the Al-Anon Family Groups and accepted for me that I was going to have to change how I was living...ugh!! My wife like yours was adamant that she would continue to drink, drug and behave the way she decided to and I fell back on the first step of all of our step, "Admitted I was powerless over alcohol/alcoholism/alcoholic and that my life had indeed become unmanageable...In time that sunk in 100percent and I quit every effort in trying to rescue her. The kids went to their grandparents and I went where ever the program and my Higher Power directed me to go. In time (lots of it) she got sober and clean and we were no longer married and still we loved each other without a reason to be married. Her sober journey is one of the miracles I have witnessed as mine also is. I gave up the idea that my peace of mind and serenity and happiness was determinant on her sobriety and took on the life I now have.
We only work this program of recovery one day at a time, one hour at a time because that is what is required when we are up against this mind and mood and life changing disease which is fatal and can only be arrested by total abstinence.
We are in support of your journey. Keep coming back. Listen and learn as much as you can about this disease and practice, practice, practice the suggestions that come thru the program. (((((hugs)))))
I have to make my decision today about the intervention. I'm 99% going to tell her mother that it's probably best if I am not involved. I just don't think me being there will do any good as my wife does not to hear a word of what I say and it will just make her even more frustrated and mad. Furthermore, to help my relationship situation, her mother stated that if I didn't want to be involved, she'll not tell me anything more about it so I won't know if it's going to happen and can still claim some ignorance. I am going to, today, make a list of pros and cons in regards to my being there, then make my final decision.
In my experience, my alcoholics were resentful of me most of the time. They saw me as the wall between themselves and alcohol. I had to learn to QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally. When I stopped absorbing their chaos, the dance changed a bit...meetings, sponsor, program, boundaries and detaching all were extremely helpful for me.
Keep doing you one day at a time and don't forget to breathe....in support!
I'm a mess right now.
((Govna)))) good job. This is not an easy path that we travel, however you are not alone. Sending prayers for you and your family. Continue to recite the serenity prayer and sharing here
-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 14th of March 2018 01:02:14 PM
She snuck her phone in (which she's tried every time, but never successful, this time she was). She kept calling her mother and I, yelling and swearing at us. Texting us the same. I reported to the facility that she still had her phone, but they couldn't find it, so we cancelled her service the next day. She was saying she was going to leave. So we called to see if she was still there, and she took everyone off of the release and wouldn't give us any info.
She put her mother back on the release and has been calling her everyday. She's trying to manipulate her way out of staying, and says she doesn't need to be there and wants to do outpatient care. The only thing keeping her there is...her mother informed her that if she tries to come home, I will be filing a restraining order against her and taking the kids, and her mother would not support her in any way (i.e. money). So she keeps calling trying to manipulate her mother in to agreeing to "letting" her leave after detox. Her mother is standing her ground and is not falling for her "crap", though she may be wearing her down a little.
Any way, it's a work in progress (and I know it Always will be). It's pretty stressful obviously, and not knowing the outcome/s (her getting sober and our relationship) is hard to bare. I will be going to Al Anon meetings starting today if I can find one or tomorrow.
((Govna))you did well. I am sending prayers for you and your family
Govna...keep on keeping on cause this program does work when we work it...No the alcoholic isn't going to work it this one is yours. I remember as a family therapist working in a in/out patient family recovery program, teaching the parents, grand-parents, siblings and others what tough love sounded like, moved like, how it worked and the like and that part of the process evoked the most amount of anger from the alcoholic and addict which was at times the only evidence that it was and would work. Tough love is awesome when it works for the non alcoholic and usually the best offence in the face of the disease.
I pray it continues to work for you. ((((hugs))))
I've read that interventions rarely work unless the person is obviously committed to recovery, and the same holds for rehab. And even then it is hard. As you've seen, when they're not personally dedicated to recovery, they will just throw up barrier after barrier. You can force her into rehab ten or twenty more times, but she has to want it on her own, and that comes on her own schedule if at all.
So far all your actions have been about changing her. I don't know if you have a meeting? If so, you may know the Three C's: you didn't Cause it, you can't Cure it, you can't Control it. The third C seems relevant here. If you could control it, things would be different by now. What you haven't focused on yet, if I understand correctly, is what it takes most of us a long time to focus on: protecting and healing ourselves and our kids.
As is obvious, no kid should be holed up for 5 days in a hotel room with a drunk parent - that is why you got the rehabs going in the first place. I know it will probably be complicated to figure out how to behave as a single parent with sole responsibility for the kids. That is what you've been in effect all along, but this time for real. I had to imagine that my alcoholic husband had been hit by a bus and was in the hospital for six months, or had run away to South America with a floozy. I had to just imagine him gone and unavailable. Because someone who wasn't sober enough to keep the kids safe was just as good as gone.
Then it required some fancy footwork to arrange for childcare, as it does for all single parents. But our children are the most precious thing we have, and they can't defend themselves. They rely on us utterly.
I'm suggesting this not as a way to manipulate your wife into recovery, but as a way to move forward and have your and your kids' lives be whole and okay even without her being in recovery. It's possible that losing custody of her kids may be another step towards your wife's recovery. But remember that statistically, most alcoholics never recover. That means that you can't wait until she's sober before you take care of yourself and your kids.
My lawyer told me to document everything and to get everything squared away legally, and that served me well. The other thing that I should have done earlier was to find a good Al-Anon meeting and find a sponsor. That would have saved me a lot of grief.
Take care of yourself.
Excellent points/suggestions Mattie. Thank you for posting. It reminds me of a discussion I had with a leading expert -- and he said the exact same thing. I found the conversation fascinating from the perspective that it all came down to whether or not the alcoholic/addict "wanted" to get better. Truly wanted to get better. That's it. That's all. Period.
He explained to me that all of the studies, all of the research, with all of these factors and variables taken into consideration -- in short, the alcoholic/addict has a much, much higher percentage of success for recovery if they go to rehab because they truly want to get better. If they don't want to get better, and they go or say yes, because they were threatened with divorce, getting thrown out, whatever -- different story. After hearing all of this, ironically, it sounded simple, and after so many years of going to alanon, I realized the core of all of it...does the alcoholic/addict want to get better. Truly and simply, want to get better. Because they want to. Not for other reasons.
My step-son went to 8 rehabs, 10 IOP's, jail 4 times, and countless other "I want to get clean and sober" incidents. Throughout all of it, each and every time -- he chose to go to rehab, go to IOP, go to meetings, in order to -- avoid jail, avoid getting thrown out, avoid having his girlfriend leave or get thrown out of his house, whatever. He didn't want to get better. He just wanted to avoid some consequence. My ex AW, same. She had said, she never really wanted to quit drinking.
What I have always found most interesting was the post relapse, post release from jail, rehab, etc. What does the alcoholic/addict do? The alcoholic/addict, who has been clean and sober and been in recovery for a period of time -- they relapse. What do they do? What actions do they take? Just for me, to me, that says it all.
You are so right Mattie...even then it's very hard!!!
For me, how does someone want to live their life? And when I was at my rock bottom, at my worst, when I was in my disease...how did I want to live my life? Thanks again Mattie.
-- Edited by Bo on Sunday 25th of March 2018 07:47:13 AM
I have two sons, both of whom have been to treatment more than 5+ times each. They've also been in jail, homeless, mental health lock-ups, etc. They did not want to get sober, and also wanted to avoid consequences/pain. Yet, here we are, more than 10 years from onset and for today, they are sober.
No statistics, experts or anything else can predict if/when one will get sober. There is no law of averages, consistent bottom or common event that leads one to get sober. Each experience, just as in Al-Anon is unique and what we think we know - we do not. I believe that no effort, large or small, is done in waste. My own experience and that of my sons suggest that each treatment center, each event, etc. all taught us something about the disease, the insanity, the possible outcomes, etc.
What one suggests doesn't work is not how recovering people look at it. We consider seeds are planted, and when they will root remains to be seen just as more will be revealed. As a parent, I cautioned my boys extensively, and they had all kinds of substance abuse awareness education through the school system. Yet, nothing but their own experience and the counsel of others who truly understood the disease helped them see and accept they were sick with the disease.
I fully agree with the data - many things do not 'work' yet I don't agree always with what's defined as 'working'. Expecting an alcoholic to go away for a period of time and never drink again is like expecting a cancer patient who has reached remission with the disease to never have cancer again. It's a miracle if it goes that way, yet it seldom does nor is it realistic.
I applaud tough love, interventions and any other effort one is willing to try to help a loved one get sober. Like all in recovery, we take the action that seems to apply to our situation, and leave the outcomes up to a HP. There is not a mountain I would not have moved to lead my son's to sobriety and serenity. I stepped away when they followed the disease willingly and actively, but anytime they reached out, even if I suspected hidden agendas, I offered my service as a fellow person in recovery as well as their mother. As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
Thanks for the comments and sharing. I'm soaking in a lot. I also did attend my first Al Anon meeting this weekend.
Thankfully, my wife is still in rehab. There are some negatives that occurred this weekend, but also some positive. According to my wife, (at first) the main reason she wants to do outpatient care instead is b/c she can't fully focus with not seeing her kids for 30-days. I understand that. This weekend, she shifted gears and wrote a four page explanation as to why the facility she is at will not help her. Within the four pages, nothing mentioned the children. She wrote out her whole daily schedule in the notepad, and pointed out that everyone has 6-hours of downtime every day. She said there's nothing to do but sit around and smoke cigarettes (she doesn't smoke, but is now, and usually does when she is in rehab). She said it's not like it used to be there, they didn't give her an AA workbook, no homework, etc... She also said there are 35 men there and only 7 women, and that she's sick and tired of getting hit on. She'd mentioned that the company/rehab is selling and it's apparent that nobody there cares any more, said she saw a man and woman having sex in a closet - they got busted - and didn't get in any trouble. Her mother is calling the Director of the facility today to get to the bottom of this, she'll also be speaking with her therapist there. If these things are true, we are going to have to move her to another facility.
The positive in this is...she didn't ask to come home this time, she stated her case and told her mother to find her another facility. Again, she said nobody there is focused - so it sounds like she wants to get focused on recovery.
I'll know more today after the calls with the facility.
-- Edited by GovnA on Monday 26th of March 2018 08:17:46 AM
AH to his life. We were separated for over 2 years. The children and I had legs of support as we learned to Live and Let Live. Somewhere along this path my AH encountered enough consequences and HE chose the path of sobriety. I never asked him then or now about his program as it belongs to him not me. I pray that you and your familk will find legs of support for your journey. One Step at a Time gently achieves progress.
When I was in the tough love mode -- being that I still was in a place of anger and resentment, and I did not have acceptance -- I wasn't able to be there for the person, and certainly not in a healthy and supportive way. Sometimes, tough love almost seemed like a punishment, or punitive. I didn't like that. I wanted to be a better person, I wanted to be healthier.
For me, I never liked the generic terms of what worked, what didn't, etc. Looking back, now, in hindsight, I do know one thing -- my wife did not want to get better, get healthy, stop drinking, and start her recovery -- based upon anything anyone did. It only happened when she wanted to. So, today, I look at that as the what worked and what didn't, in the past tense, having the benefit of hindsight and the eventual result. Just my experience.
As far as the center and your AW, sounds promising. For me, even when mine were unpleasant about the rehab, the clients, the staff, etc. what I discovered is that I felt saner/safer that they were at least in a protected space without mind-altering substances. Hope is something I never let go of...
Keep on - one day at a time! Positive thoughts and prayers continue from my world to yours!
So fulfilling Post and one that brings back many memories of how I learned to work the program with the help of the loving fellowship I had...just like the fellowship here.
Thank you HP for the love and support. (((((hugs)))))