Today Iām feeling defeated. The last week has been completely unbearable dealing with AH outbursts. Last night I lost my cool because he put me on the spot with a friend of his. He is at the point that he canāt understand how to do new things. He arbitrarily decided that at THAT precise moment I was going to get on the phone with his friend who would explain a computer program that my husband wants to use for a creative project I am working on with him. I was walking up from the basement after doing a load of laundry and he just stuck the phone in my face and said itās our friend -deal with this please. I was furious! I felt stupid because I put on the spot and couldnāt figure out what exactly I was supposed to be asking?? After this call I lost it on him. I couldnāt help it. He proceeded to throw a temper tantrum and threw his cell in my direction and it missed me but hit the wall and broke. This is the 4th phone heās broken in the same manner in the last 18 months??? Itās costing us a small fortune. Forward to today and I went into the store to help him deal with getting a new phone etc. He got belligerent with the salesclerk a few times and each time he did I walked out. Very frustrating. Heās belligerent with me, with strangers, everyone. Once we left the store he demanded that we go to the computer store which we were supposed to do at the top of the day- but couldnāt because of phone drama. Myself knowing that heās already tipsy, itās afternoon and the store would be busy and it would be myself walkin night straight into the trap of insanity. I said no- in a kind, gentle way. He flipped out. Once I parked the car in front of the house, he kept yelling and demanding to go. I said no. He then snatched MY keys from the ignition and ran into the house saying he wouldnāt give me the keys unless I agreed to go to the store. So I left. And walked a good few km from the house and Iām sitting in a coffee shop now. He keeps calling and texting that heās sorry, that he loves me. But I donāt want to go back right now. Iām ignoring his calls but answered a few texts. Iām exhausted emotionally. I donāt know if Iām doing the right thing. I almost feel like I should just take him and keep my mouth shut. Heās so angry and frustrated thereās zero reasoning with him. But if I go- I feel like Iām giving into his bullying tactics. I feel so lost and confused right now......
hotrod said
Mar 7, 2018
This certainly sounds like the height of insanity If you are working together to build a creative project then attempting to do so while he is drinking seems counter productive. I would rethink my daily routine and try to allow him the freedom to work alone without depending on support from me.
Sending positive thoughts your way. Please remember recovery is process and Rome was not built in a day.
Bo said
Mar 7, 2018
I hear you, and I feel for what you are going through. Co-dependency is a very dangerous, slippery slope. It can take on many forms and fashions. So, it's unbearable -- unbearable dealing with his outbursts. OK, so two things -- first, look at your role. Look at your involvement. Look at your contribution to everything that is going on. When I was faced with the same thing -- nonstop, constant, daily, multiple times a day outbursts, my sponsor held me accountable and pushed me to look at my role, my contribution. I kept saying I had none. I kept asking how do I deal with this. What could I or should I have done. He said, look, look hard at my role, my contribution. So, my role...was nothing more than my presence! I kept going places with her, when I knew she was drinking or simply not healthy. I kept getting and being "involved" with her, various projects, tasks, conversations, etc. It didn't matter why -- yes, it was for many reasons -- but I just kept "volunteering" and doing it. There was no upside. It was the stereotypical no win situation. But I kept doing it. So, the bad outcomes, results, incidents kept happening. NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES. Think about this. Don't just knee jerk it. Think about it, explore, discover, do the work around this...STEP ONE...ACCEPTANCE
Second, it was unbearable for me dealing with her outbursts...so, the answer was...I didn't deal with them any more. Period. I had to build solutions all around that -- detachment, both physical and emotional, not enabling, setting boundaries, not engaging, letting go, and making changes. Changes in my thinking, my behavior, my actions, my reactions, and more. My wife too destroyed and lost many phones over the course of a year. Starting with the third time -- she needed, wanted, a new phone, so guess what...she went, on her own, to the store, or called the carrier, and she got a new phone. She struggled with questions, confusion, not knowing which was the right phone, plan, and so forth...so guess what...she struggled. I didn't jump in and fix it. She had to figure it out on her oww.
So, you left. You walked away. You went to a coffee shop. You didn't answer his calls. You replied to a few texts -- and I don't know what you said -- but NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES. Don't reply. You don't want to go back. Notice how it's not important what he's saying -- I love you, I hate you, whatever. It is not about him. It is about YOU. And...you don't know if you are doing the right thing. OK, guess what...YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. There is no reasoning with him. Stop trying. Let it go. Don't take him. Call a friend, go to a movie. Let him marinate in his own misery and anger. Let him feel the consequences of his own actions and behavior. Focus on YOU.
Bo said
Mar 7, 2018
hotrod wrote:
This certainly sounds like the height of insanity If you are working together to build a creative project then attempting to do so while he is drinking seems counter productive. I would rethink my daily routine and try to allow him the freedom to work alone without depending on support from me. Sending positive thoughts your way. Please remember recovery is process and Rome was not built in a day.
Counter productive...excellent point! Dead on perfect point. Yes, make change. Don't be involved with all the stuff, tasks, projects, whatever. Let him do it. I love it. Thanks for posting.
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 05:13:55 PM
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 05:14:14 PM
el-cee said
Mar 7, 2018
This disease drives us insane. The whole family caught up in the merrygoround until confusion and exhaustion make it so we can't see the wood for the trees. There is hope. Change has happened for thousands of people that walked your shoes. I'm one if them. Change came through meetings reaching out as you are doing here. Also reaching out by phoning members. Getting the books. Courage to change one day at a time. Also a pamphlet I foynd really helpful called the merrygoround called denial. It's available free online I think. The books are available from the alanon website and usually at meetings. Your husband is behaving like a spoilt brat and your his mother. That's what I did too and then I learned the disease thrived in these dynamics and if change was going to happen then I had to change. Can you think about a plan b for yourself? Somewhere safe to go to maybe stay for a break from this? He needs consequences of his actions desperately. Like a big grown up man. It's not ypur job to provide them but maybe step out of the way. He smashes his phone why take on his responsibility by helping or paying for a new one? Can you consider a different approach? Alanon will help you but it takes real commitment.
Maresie said
Mar 7, 2018
The now ex A put me in the middke all the time. He also had very very expensive temper tantrums
Boundary setting is very hard. It takes a lot of practice it is not about you doingnsimething #wrong# It is about you learning new skills. ..
Be kind to yourself stop beating yourself up. You will have his moments and really hard ones Detaching is really really hard work in the beginning. It is like lifting a 300 lb weight first off
If you gave a sponsor or people to call it really helps. There is a chat room here too When I was in the thick of it I just craved to be heard
One other thing that us really helpful us to have a gratitude practice. It is pretty hard to practice gratitude every day I emailed a sponsor and some other people things I was grateful for
When I was dealing with all this in a relationship I felt great shame I also was absolutely enraged I have had to work hard to learn how to deescalate. Take time outs find thinbgs that make me feel better. I really work hard these days to not be in situations that trigger me. I let it go when I get triggered but I work on not veingbaroynd people who seek to make things worse. Sometimes that requires creativity
Remember the alcoholic us ak ways trying to set up situations so he can feel like a victim and have an excuse to drink For whatever reason he needs to be in this aggrieved role .
You don't have to take on the role assigned to you.
Iamhere said
Mar 7, 2018
(((EllaBella))) - so very sorry for the chaos/drama caused by the disease. It's overwhelming and it's all consuming, which is one reason of many that recovery gave me what I desperately needed. I felt so stuck and lost and broken when the disease was pulling at me in many directions. I too really did not understand how to detach and/or build boundaries and did not learn how to do so until I fully committed to recovery.
Others who came before me gently helped me as well as a sponsor. My experience is that the cycle of insanity did not slow down until I made changes. I had to make recovery my priority and if that meant things went undone, that's what had to happen. Until I finally and fully committed to being powerless over the disease and the diseased, and leaned into all that recovery offered, all efforts were temporary.
Be gentle with you and you do have a right to a peaceful life. I believe that we feel we are 'stuck' in a marriage, in a home, in a ...... and that's not always true. It was so very, very helpful for me early on to focus on the Just for Today bookmark...I'll share so it's handy for you -
JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only, and not tackle all my problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, that Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be.
JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust myself to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my luck as it comes, and fit myself to it.
JUST FOR TODAY I will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will lean something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires effort, thought and concentration.
JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways: I will do somebody a good turn, and not get found out; if anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I dont want to do just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable. I will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, keep my voice low, be courteous, criticize not one bit. I wont find fault with anything, nor try to improve or regulate anybody but myself.
JUST FOR TODAY I will have a program. I may not follow it exactly but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests: hurry and indecision.
JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself and relax. During this half hour, sometime, I will try to get a better perspective on my life.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid. Especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me.
Sending tons of (((hugs))), thoughts and prayers...
Elabella said
Mar 7, 2018
Thank you all tremendously for your words of encouragement and hope. I do realize that by my volunteering for all these tasks, projects, etc Iām basically setting myself up for the outcomes. The thing is, the alternative is even scarier. His aggressive behaviours are awful. He yells, screams, swears- doesnāt matter if we are in public or at home. The idea of even dealing with it fills me with overwhelming dread. I know Iām powerless over his actions. I accept it. Today because of all this nonsense I missed a face to face meeting which I really wanted to go to. Ever since I told him I was attending meetings heās been threatening me that he will show up and cause a huge scene. I believe him. My only solace right now is stepping outside for a cigarette ( which I started again after quitting 7 years ago. The stress is getting to me) and getting on these boards on my cell phone. Tomorrow Iām determined to make it to a face to face- I donāt care what he says. Thanking you all again for everything. It helps me so much to read all your shares. Hereās to a good tomorrow.....
Jerry F said
Mar 7, 2018
(((((Ela))))) you're growing. Our growth doesn't happen overnight or instantaneously. Additionally intimately practicing the "courage to change the things we can" takes place 24/7 until things start coming around. I learned to use the police and public services to help the change. If this was a neighbor person or anyone else you would have an easier time justifying using the outside services. He needs to have strange others standing besides you to understand the need to change and that they will be there over and over and over until he makes change.
My sponsor taught me a very simple idea which still works decades later. "If what you find is causing you trouble...do the opposite". He didn't mean do something to make it worse...make it change. We have lots of examples on the board about "different" things we can do that other members have done that worked for them...Do something different. Might the attitude that things are not so much worse as they are different. Hold him responsible 24/7. He has problems whether they are cell phone or behaviors or what have you and they are his problems.
The opposite of fear is love. You will not fear that which you love and as I was taught "Love is the complete and total acceptance of every other human being for exactly who they are. Included yourself inside of the "every other human being group" and use the courage to change what you can.
Do not take him to an open Al-Anon meeting...it is not for alcoholics. It is for you and others who are practicing how to work the program and recover. ((((hugs))))
el-cee said
Mar 8, 2018
He a bully and luke most bullys they are cowards. Think about what you would tell your daughter or any child who so being bullied day in and out. Tell someone who can help. I had to get help and I called the police. I had no-one else to call on like alanon friends at the time or family memebers that would stand with me and help tell him clearly and loudly No More!!!. So I found help from the police. He got the message loud and clear. Also next time he threatens you with turning up at an alanon meeting tell him to please do that. I can't think of a better place for him to get a reality check. The very people in the world he couldn't scare are alanon people. He a only scary to you. No one else and he knows it and counts on it. But that's not for long. Your here in alanon getting support. Please remind yourself this is not your fault. You don't deserve this no matter what. It's not your cooking cleaning or lack of. Your not stupid or clumsy or any other lies he might be telling you to justify his behaviour. He's a liar a bully and a coward working hard to keep you down.
Bo said
Mar 8, 2018
Early on when making change was uncomfortable for me, and I was afraid to do it, I went into denial. I convinced myself that "the alternative" was much worse. So, I kept doing what I was doing. That was my contribution, my enabling, etc. I would make a decision that I wouldn't go with her -- wherever it was -- and when the moment came, I got yelled at, screamed at, intimidated, bullied, and so forth. So, I then said in my own head -- oh, look, the alternative, the change I wanted to make, me deciding not going -- was worse. I convinced myself that my making change actually made things worse. It's possible it did, for that moment. Just that one time. But it really wasn't worse. It was simply my wife wanting what she wanted, wanted me to do something with her, and she did everything possible to get me to do it -- and part of that was her making it worse for me. But, it wasn't.
While it seemed worse -- it was necessary. It had to be done for me to get better. My sponsor said it was two steps backward for a moment, for me to make one step forward for the future. He was right. That happened a lot when I told her I was going to meetings. She threatened everything. She ended up doing very little to nothing. I learned, all of it, had nothing to do with her. It had to do with me. Just me. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Change may not be easy. It may be uncomfortable. It may be hard. But just for that moment in time. I got verbally abused, and I got physically assaulted and attacked. The first time the police came -- a neighbor called them -- I was scared. But why? I didn't call them. LOL. And guess what, the second time -- I called them! And I wasn't scared. Then, the dynamic changed. I kept detaching. I kept standing by and honoring my boundaries (important to note -- it was ME who was honoring my boundaries, not HER). And then she started to change. She started begging me to be there for her, support her, help her, etc. So, what did I do? Two things -- one, I caved and started doing what she wanted. Because she begged and pleaded. I thought now I had an edge or an advantage. And, two, I started to try and negotiate and use that edge to my advantage, and get her to stop drinking, stop the anger outbursts, etc. I started to try and control and manipulate her into behaving. Big mistake. I quickly stopped.
In the end, just 30 days later...my situation got better. I got better. I got healthy.
Side note -- from my experience -- don't be afraid if he shows up to a meeting. It won't be the first time. Everyone there will be there for you!!! They will step up for you!!! That's what I learned. Go to your meeting! Find a sponsor. Start doing the work. One day at a time. If he shows up, he will quickly be sorry that he did.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 8th of March 2018 01:37:52 AM
serenity47 said
Mar 8, 2018
If he shows up at a meeting so what? If he is loud and belligerent and threatening then rest assured that the police can be called and would be happy to keep him company. Most bullies verbalize idle threats that never come to fruition. I used to spend a lot of time worrying about things that never happened or if they did happen it wasn't like I had imagined. Change is threatening to him as he likely senses that he is losing some of his power over you. The more I was able to grasp onto little pieces of serenity and calmness the more I came to the realization that I am only responsible for myself no one else, not even my children. I can lead by example but this journey of life is an individual one.
Aline said
Mar 8, 2018
Big, big hugs, (((Elabella))), I can so relate. I remember I used to be driven by fear too, so I kept "helping", enabling, anything just because I also felt the alternative would be worse. I had two major things I was scared witless to do in fear of ex-abf's reaction. In Alanon I somehow found the courage and did the next right thing despite of fear, but it took me months in the program to get there. Don't beat yourself up, (kettle calling the pot black, that is! Lol. I'm trying to follow my own advice too). Alcoholism is crazy all around, and the longer I'm in the program, the crazier it seems to me - within the A, and within myself as a collateral damage. My A used to bully and manipulate me to no end, too. Take care of yourself and keep coming back!
Mattie said
Mar 8, 2018
He is throwing phones against the wall and destroying them - I worry that the next thing he throws against the wall might be you.
Al-Anon tells us not to give advice unless someone is in danger, and it seems to me that you could be in danger. Reading between the lines, what I'm hearing is that when you don't go along with his insanity, he escalates, and he is pretty scary. So to protect yourself you are currently not going along with his insanity, and he is having that huge predictable "Change back!" reaction.
That doesn't mean you have to go along with his crazy plans. As the saying is, "When you're going through hell, keep going." Going along with his crazy plans would now just make him think that behaving insanely is a successful way to control you, so he should get that one out and do it whenever he needs to.
I'd suggest that you talk to a Domestic Violence shelter and get their advice on making a plan. You don't have to put this plan in action right away, or ever, but it would be good to have one in case things escalate at some point and you find yourself in immediate danger. If you are in the US the National Domestic Violence Hotline is http://www.thehotline.org/, 18007997233. But I gather you may not be in the US? Here are some tips for a safe plan: http://www.thehotline.org/help/path-to-safety/
For instance, you may want to keep an extra car key on you (in your wallet or in your pocket), and have some extra clothes and important documents stashed someplace in the trunk where no can can see them or with a friend. And some other sample tips from the page:
If possible, have a phone accessible at all times and know what numbers to call for help. Know where the nearest public phone is located. Know the phone number to your local shelter. If your life is in danger, call the police.
Make a habit of backing the car into the driveway and keeping it fueled. Keep the drivers door unlocked and others locked for a quick escape.
Try not to wear scarves or long jewelry that could be used to strangle you.
Create several plausible reasons for leaving the house at different times of the day or night.
You may never need to use those tips, but if you do need them, it will be very good to have thought about these things first.
It sounds as if your A's craziness and drinking/substance abuse has been getting worse - at the very least it is not at a tolerable level. You may also wish to make a longer term exit plan for how to live separately. It may sound impossible, but for instance, if he took up with another woman, or ran off to join the circus, or whatever, what steps would you take to move and support yourself? You can start planning to make that possible now. It doesn't mean you have to leave. Or you could leave and live separately and still be in a relationship. Or whatever. But relationships go much better if people conduct them because they choose to, not because they are stuck. This will keep you from being in the "stuck" position.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 8th of March 2018 07:54:10 AM
Skorpi said
Mar 8, 2018
(((Elabella)))
I can so relate. Sigh. My wife, with her 2 drunk friends in tow, arrived late to one of my AlAnon meetings while I was early in the program. I remember them snickering while they stomped down the hallway to the meeting room like a heard of elephants. The thing was, the outcomes of that were really good for me. She showed up. Ok, so what? Her drunk behavior and the drunk behavior of her friends at the meeting reflected on THEM, not on me. And, the old timers in my group weren't put off by them. They knew just what to say and do, and I learned a lot just by watching them. The double winners in my group also had some insightful things to say. She did that a few more times without drunk friends in tow, but has since given up on that approach because it didn't stop me from going to my meetings. The structure of the meetings helped, too. She got to share, when it was her turn, but otherwise, no one would tolerate her saying ANYTHING or otherwise disturbing the group. I didn't have to address it, the group told her that her behavior was unacceptable, and I was able to stand with them instead of standing alone and isolated.
A lot of us have been there - we have been embarrassed to be associated with such public drunken antics.
Slowly, I learned to walk away from them. Sometimes literally for 5 miles to get home.
I am learning to not run in and fix things that she ought to be able to do herself. It is still hard for me. Yesterday before she went to work, she had to figure out low tire pressure, because she hadn't taken care of it Tuesday. Last night, she filled her washer fluid in her car and figured out how to replace one of the headlight bulbs. I like working on cars, but I set a boundary that her car maintenance is her own responsibility. She felt proud, independent, and accomplished that she'd figured the lightbulb out. If I had run in and fixed things, she would feel dependent on me, instead of capable and accomplished, so I think letting her take care of her own issues is a good thing.
Good for you for walking away. Boundary setting is hard. I cannot emphasis enough how hard it was for me, and how hard it still is. over three years in the program and with me practicing these things, she's started to accept my boundaries when I say "I am not going to talk about this right now" or "let me think about that". It is refreshing. Walking away, setting boundaries, that still feels like lifting something heavier than me, but at least it is lighter than the 300 pound weight I started with three years ago
Keep coming back, and remember, his behavior reflects on him. You don't have to participate or engage. You can chose to do something different.
Groo said
Mar 8, 2018
I think it's awesome you set a boundary and stuck with it! When I first started setting boundaries my AH escalated his awful behaviors too. I thought that setting a boundary was going to give me peace, instead it resulted in me having to sleep on someone's sofa for the weekend and he broke my bicycle. I felt dejected and depressed AH just amped things up to a whole new level of hell. That's when someone pointed out that his tantrum was a typical reaction to my new behavior and that if I could brave the storm things would get better. Things did get better, but only after they got worse for a bit. Hang in there and go to your meeting; if I had a nickel for every time someone walked into one of our meetings saying their AH threatened to show up and of course never did, I'd have a dollar.
SerenityRUS said
Mar 8, 2018
It's always about change back .. go back to allowing me to do what I want to do, .. go back to me knowing your response.
Change is challenging for the simple fact it's the unknown. That's why sometimes when the A stops drinking it is harder to deal with them because it's all new .. it's no different to them when I start to do something different.
Keep coming back .. Hugs S :)
MellyBobelly said
Mar 8, 2018
I lived that. As did a lot of people here.
It's so foreign to me now. I've been living "bully-free" for 3 years now and yeah, things are hard, but I do what I want when I want and there's no fear of "what will he do next" in my life any more. I'm still "with" him btw, he just doesn't live here and if he gets crazy drunk and tries to come to my house, he knows I will call the cops. It's taken a few tries lol, but he doesn't do it anymore. Do you want that? Would you like to go to sleep each night only worrying about your own crap instead of having every waking moment hijacked by fear of what "he might do"?
Never mind the logistics, I know there are a thousand reasons why it isn't practical or possible, but is it something you'd like?
It's OK to say no, because maybe you don't know who you are anymore, and the idea of you by yourself is terrifying. Maybe the drama feels like all of who you are right now.
But think it over. There are alternatives to living as a hostage. You have so much more power than you think you do, hon. All you have to do to make one of those options happen is think...how would you like your life to be? Does it centre around a childish, bullying man-baby?
Yes is an OK answer. It was yes for me once too. Just be honest with yourself. What do you want?
Maresie said
Mar 8, 2018
The now ex A put me in the middle all the time. He also had very very expensive temper tantrums
Boundary setting is very hard. It takes a lot of practice it is not about you doingnsimething #wrong# It is about you learning new skills. ..
Be kind to yourself stop beating yourself up. You will have his moments and really hard ones Detaching is really really hard work in the beginning. It is like lifting a 300 lb weight first off
If you gave a sponsor or people to call it really helps. There is a chat room here too When I was in the thick of it I just craved to be heard
One other thing that us really helpful us to have a gratitude practice. It is pretty hard to practice gratitude every day I emailed a sponsor and some other people things I was grateful for
When I was dealing with all this in a relationship I felt great shame I also was absolutely enraged I have had to work hard to learn how to deescalate. Take time outs find thinbgs that make me feel better. I really work hard these days to not be in situations that trigger me. I let it go when I get triggered but I work on not veingbaroynd people who seek to make things worse. Sometimes that requires creativity
Remember the alcoholic us ak ways trying to set up situations so he can feel like a victim and have an excuse to drink For whatever reason he needs to be in this aggrieved role .
You don't have to take on the role assigned to you.
KT2015 said
Mar 9, 2018
Hey there
I can relate to your posts. My AH could abnd sometimes still can cause a lot of chaos. I learned I was powerless over the disease but not helpless to take care oF myself and my kid. It took me a while but going to meetings and reading the literature helped me set some boundaries for myself. My boundaries are that I will not have any serious conversations with him when he's drinking. I will not listen to nastiness i will leave the room or even the house and I will not help him replace anything he destroys with a temper tantrum. My ah and I went through similar things when I started al anon. He once cancelled our cable internet and cell phones when I went to a meeting instead of helping him with figuring out how to watch something he couldn't find on TV. I know it sounds mild but it really threw me off and scared me. I since ensured he no longer has that kind of power over me (my bills are in my name).
I've changed and grown a lot from the program and I feel a lot stronger. I've learned I don't have to accept unacceptable behaviour.
I do worry about your safety if his anger and agression increases do you have a plan. Do you worry about your safety? If so I do hope you seek out assistance and have a plan if things escalate.
Keep coming back.
The1975jen said
Mar 9, 2018
I can also relate. The chaos and unpredictability of life with an active alcoholic felt unsustainable to me. But also, that is what brought me to Al-anon! Broken phones and broken windows, violent outbursts. You are not alone. And you are strong to have made it this far. Keep coming back. It really does work.
Bo said
Mar 9, 2018
Guy goes to the doctor and says "Doctor, my arm hurts when I move it like this (and the guy gestures with his arm, moving it in a measured, somewhat abnormal. circular motion).
Doctor looks at the guy and says "OK, don't move it like that"
I heard this once in an alanon meeting. While it's an old joke, the person doing the topic segwayed into what's your part, why do you keep putting yourself in that position, and so forth. One person afterward shared "if I don't it will be worse" and the guy who had done the topic said OK, so doing it, how's that working for you? Are you happy? It will be worse...OK, and they talked about it...but you won't be there for the worse! There is always an answer. Detach. Walk away. Don't answer the phone or texts because you have boundaries. When he gets home, if he's worse, leave, detach, walk away. Whenever he does that keep walking away. Keep honoring your boundary. The guy walked through it with this person. It was very nice to see the tools at work, and someone learning them.
Changed attitudes...and changed behavior...leads to and aids recovery...our recovery.
WestMan said
Mar 9, 2018
Elabella I think you did great. Yes, it's confusing and I often doubt myself too. But you walking away and setting that boundary took a lot of courage. Was there some other decision that you could have made that would have made things easier? Maybe but it's really unlikely. I know that my in my own experience my ExAW started having a lot of problems when we both started our programs around the same time. I was starting to change the way I went about things. Nothing ever set her off more than me setting a healthy boundary though.
I could do all my meetings and have all the literature but for me to say "No, I'm not comfortable with that" was unheard of and was met with increased insanity. It then got bad enough that I had to end the marriage. There are no easy answers and I've heard other's stories that were much worse than mine but they somehow kept the relationship. I believe I made the best decision I could for my family and I.
Iamhere said
Mar 10, 2018
I also believe you are doing great. It's hard to realize in the heat of the moment that we are truly fighting a formidable force - the disease of alcoholism. There is a part of me deep down that still wants to deny this and wants to try to relate to others in an adult, sane, healthy way....what we learn in recovery is the disease is of the mind, and discussions are typically counter-productive with an active alcoholic.
It took me time in recovery to realize I had given away my power. I took action based on how I predicted others would act/react to it. I had been doing this for years. Those who came before me suggested small, simple self-care things that helped me grow my own esteem and begin to take back my power.
In time, I got to a point where I would just simply state, "I have an appointment and will be back in 2 hours." If there were questions, taunts, names, etc. I just stated the serenity prayer and walked out the door. I just kept focusing on me and doing what I could that was suggested and recovery led me to sanity. We talk in recovery about 'acting our way to right thinking instead of thinking our way to right actions, and this has been my experience.
So - keep doing you as best you can. Take small steps towards self-care - a walk, a bubble-bath, a safe place to detach, a plan B to spend time/the night to get away from the insanity - small things each day to help you move forward. You can do this and more will always be revealed!!
Sending positive thoughts your way. Please remember recovery is process and Rome was not built in a day.
I hear you, and I feel for what you are going through. Co-dependency is a very dangerous, slippery slope. It can take on many forms and fashions. So, it's unbearable -- unbearable dealing with his outbursts. OK, so two things -- first, look at your role. Look at your involvement. Look at your contribution to everything that is going on. When I was faced with the same thing -- nonstop, constant, daily, multiple times a day outbursts, my sponsor held me accountable and pushed me to look at my role, my contribution. I kept saying I had none. I kept asking how do I deal with this. What could I or should I have done. He said, look, look hard at my role, my contribution. So, my role...was nothing more than my presence! I kept going places with her, when I knew she was drinking or simply not healthy. I kept getting and being "involved" with her, various projects, tasks, conversations, etc. It didn't matter why -- yes, it was for many reasons -- but I just kept "volunteering" and doing it. There was no upside. It was the stereotypical no win situation. But I kept doing it. So, the bad outcomes, results, incidents kept happening. NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES. Think about this. Don't just knee jerk it. Think about it, explore, discover, do the work around this...STEP ONE...ACCEPTANCE
Second, it was unbearable for me dealing with her outbursts...so, the answer was...I didn't deal with them any more. Period. I had to build solutions all around that -- detachment, both physical and emotional, not enabling, setting boundaries, not engaging, letting go, and making changes. Changes in my thinking, my behavior, my actions, my reactions, and more. My wife too destroyed and lost many phones over the course of a year. Starting with the third time -- she needed, wanted, a new phone, so guess what...she went, on her own, to the store, or called the carrier, and she got a new phone. She struggled with questions, confusion, not knowing which was the right phone, plan, and so forth...so guess what...she struggled. I didn't jump in and fix it. She had to figure it out on her oww.
So, you left. You walked away. You went to a coffee shop. You didn't answer his calls. You replied to a few texts -- and I don't know what you said -- but NOTHING CHANGES IF NOTHING CHANGES. Don't reply. You don't want to go back. Notice how it's not important what he's saying -- I love you, I hate you, whatever. It is not about him. It is about YOU. And...you don't know if you are doing the right thing. OK, guess what...YOU ARE DOING THE RIGHT THING. There is no reasoning with him. Stop trying. Let it go. Don't take him. Call a friend, go to a movie. Let him marinate in his own misery and anger. Let him feel the consequences of his own actions and behavior. Focus on YOU.
Counter productive...excellent point! Dead on perfect point. Yes, make change. Don't be involved with all the stuff, tasks, projects, whatever. Let him do it. I love it. Thanks for posting.
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 05:13:55 PM
-- Edited by Bo on Wednesday 7th of March 2018 05:14:14 PM
The now ex A put me in the middke all the time. He also had very very expensive temper tantrums
Boundary setting is very hard. It takes a lot of practice it is not about you doingnsimething #wrong# It is about you learning new skills. ..
Be kind to yourself stop beating yourself up. You will have his moments and really hard ones Detaching is really really hard work in the beginning. It is like lifting a 300 lb weight first off
If you gave a sponsor or people to call it really helps. There is a chat room here too When I was in the thick of it I just craved to be heard
One other thing that us really helpful us to have a gratitude practice. It is pretty hard to practice gratitude every day I emailed a sponsor and some other people things I was grateful for
When I was dealing with all this in a relationship I felt great shame I also was absolutely enraged I have had to work hard to learn how to deescalate. Take time outs find thinbgs that make me feel better. I really work hard these days to not be in situations that trigger me. I let it go when I get triggered but I work on not veingbaroynd people who seek to make things worse. Sometimes that requires creativity
Remember the alcoholic us ak ways trying to set up situations so he can feel like a victim and have an excuse to drink For whatever reason he needs to be in this aggrieved role .
You don't have to take on the role assigned to you.
Others who came before me gently helped me as well as a sponsor. My experience is that the cycle of insanity did not slow down until I made changes. I had to make recovery my priority and if that meant things went undone, that's what had to happen. Until I finally and fully committed to being powerless over the disease and the diseased, and leaned into all that recovery offered, all efforts were temporary.
Be gentle with you and you do have a right to a peaceful life. I believe that we feel we are 'stuck' in a marriage, in a home, in a ...... and that's not always true. It was so very, very helpful for me early on to focus on the Just for Today bookmark...I'll share so it's handy for you -
JUST FOR TODAY I will try to live through this day only, and not tackle all my problems at once. I can do something for twelve hours that would appall me if I felt that I had to keep it up for a lifetime.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be happy. This assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln said, that Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be.
JUST FOR TODAY I will adjust myself to what is, and not try to adjust everything to my own desires. I will take my luck as it comes, and fit myself to it.
JUST FOR TODAY I will try to strengthen my mind. I will study. I will lean something useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will read something that requires effort, thought and concentration.
JUST FOR TODAY I will exercise my soul in three ways: I will do somebody a good turn, and not get found out; if anybody knows of it, it will not count. I will do at least two things I dont want to do just for exercise. I will not show anyone that my feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but today I will not show it.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be agreeable. I will look as well as I can, dress becomingly, keep my voice low, be courteous, criticize not one bit. I wont find fault with anything, nor try to improve or regulate anybody but myself.
JUST FOR TODAY I will have a program. I may not follow it exactly but I will have it. I will save myself from two pests: hurry and indecision.
JUST FOR TODAY I will have a quiet half hour all by myself and relax. During this half hour, sometime, I will try to get a better perspective on my life.
JUST FOR TODAY I will be unafraid. Especially I will not be afraid to enjoy what is beautiful, and to believe that as I give to the world, so the world will give to me.
Sending tons of (((hugs))), thoughts and prayers...
(((((Ela))))) you're growing. Our growth doesn't happen overnight or instantaneously. Additionally intimately practicing the "courage to change the things we can" takes place 24/7 until things start coming around. I learned to use the police and public services to help the change. If this was a neighbor person or anyone else you would have an easier time justifying using the outside services. He needs to have strange others standing besides you to understand the need to change and that they will be there over and over and over until he makes change.
My sponsor taught me a very simple idea which still works decades later. "If what you find is causing you trouble...do the opposite". He didn't mean do something to make it worse...make it change. We have lots of examples on the board about "different" things we can do that other members have done that worked for them...Do something different. Might the attitude that things are not so much worse as they are different. Hold him responsible 24/7. He has problems whether they are cell phone or behaviors or what have you and they are his problems.
The opposite of fear is love. You will not fear that which you love and as I was taught "Love is the complete and total acceptance of every other human being for exactly who they are. Included yourself inside of the "every other human being group" and use the courage to change what you can.
Do not take him to an open Al-Anon meeting...it is not for alcoholics. It is for you and others who are practicing how to work the program and recover. ((((hugs))))
Early on when making change was uncomfortable for me, and I was afraid to do it, I went into denial. I convinced myself that "the alternative" was much worse. So, I kept doing what I was doing. That was my contribution, my enabling, etc. I would make a decision that I wouldn't go with her -- wherever it was -- and when the moment came, I got yelled at, screamed at, intimidated, bullied, and so forth. So, I then said in my own head -- oh, look, the alternative, the change I wanted to make, me deciding not going -- was worse. I convinced myself that my making change actually made things worse. It's possible it did, for that moment. Just that one time. But it really wasn't worse. It was simply my wife wanting what she wanted, wanted me to do something with her, and she did everything possible to get me to do it -- and part of that was her making it worse for me. But, it wasn't.
While it seemed worse -- it was necessary. It had to be done for me to get better. My sponsor said it was two steps backward for a moment, for me to make one step forward for the future. He was right. That happened a lot when I told her I was going to meetings. She threatened everything. She ended up doing very little to nothing. I learned, all of it, had nothing to do with her. It had to do with me. Just me. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Change may not be easy. It may be uncomfortable. It may be hard. But just for that moment in time. I got verbally abused, and I got physically assaulted and attacked. The first time the police came -- a neighbor called them -- I was scared. But why? I didn't call them. LOL. And guess what, the second time -- I called them! And I wasn't scared. Then, the dynamic changed. I kept detaching. I kept standing by and honoring my boundaries (important to note -- it was ME who was honoring my boundaries, not HER). And then she started to change. She started begging me to be there for her, support her, help her, etc. So, what did I do? Two things -- one, I caved and started doing what she wanted. Because she begged and pleaded. I thought now I had an edge or an advantage. And, two, I started to try and negotiate and use that edge to my advantage, and get her to stop drinking, stop the anger outbursts, etc. I started to try and control and manipulate her into behaving. Big mistake. I quickly stopped.
In the end, just 30 days later...my situation got better. I got better. I got healthy.
Side note -- from my experience -- don't be afraid if he shows up to a meeting. It won't be the first time. Everyone there will be there for you!!! They will step up for you!!! That's what I learned. Go to your meeting! Find a sponsor. Start doing the work. One day at a time. If he shows up, he will quickly be sorry that he did.
-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 8th of March 2018 01:37:52 AM
He is throwing phones against the wall and destroying them - I worry that the next thing he throws against the wall might be you.
Al-Anon tells us not to give advice unless someone is in danger, and it seems to me that you could be in danger. Reading between the lines, what I'm hearing is that when you don't go along with his insanity, he escalates, and he is pretty scary. So to protect yourself you are currently not going along with his insanity, and he is having that huge predictable "Change back!" reaction.
That doesn't mean you have to go along with his crazy plans. As the saying is, "When you're going through hell, keep going." Going along with his crazy plans would now just make him think that behaving insanely is a successful way to control you, so he should get that one out and do it whenever he needs to.
I'd suggest that you talk to a Domestic Violence shelter and get their advice on making a plan. You don't have to put this plan in action right away, or ever, but it would be good to have one in case things escalate at some point and you find yourself in immediate danger. If you are in the US the National Domestic Violence Hotline is http://www.thehotline.org/, 18007997233. But I gather you may not be in the US? Here are some tips for a safe plan: http://www.thehotline.org/help/path-to-safety/
For instance, you may want to keep an extra car key on you (in your wallet or in your pocket), and have some extra clothes and important documents stashed someplace in the trunk where no can can see them or with a friend. And some other sample tips from the page:
If possible, have a phone accessible at all times and know what numbers to call for help. Know where the nearest public phone is located. Know the phone number to your local shelter. If your life is in danger, call the police.
You may never need to use those tips, but if you do need them, it will be very good to have thought about these things first.
It sounds as if your A's craziness and drinking/substance abuse has been getting worse - at the very least it is not at a tolerable level. You may also wish to make a longer term exit plan for how to live separately. It may sound impossible, but for instance, if he took up with another woman, or ran off to join the circus, or whatever, what steps would you take to move and support yourself? You can start planning to make that possible now. It doesn't mean you have to leave. Or you could leave and live separately and still be in a relationship. Or whatever. But relationships go much better if people conduct them because they choose to, not because they are stuck. This will keep you from being in the "stuck" position.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 8th of March 2018 07:54:10 AM
I can so relate. Sigh. My wife, with her 2 drunk friends in tow, arrived late to one of my AlAnon meetings while I was early in the program. I remember them snickering while they stomped down the hallway to the meeting room like a heard of elephants. The thing was, the outcomes of that were really good for me. She showed up. Ok, so what? Her drunk behavior and the drunk behavior of her friends at the meeting reflected on THEM, not on me. And, the old timers in my group weren't put off by them. They knew just what to say and do, and I learned a lot just by watching them. The double winners in my group also had some insightful things to say. She did that a few more times without drunk friends in tow, but has since given up on that approach because it didn't stop me from going to my meetings. The structure of the meetings helped, too. She got to share, when it was her turn, but otherwise, no one would tolerate her saying ANYTHING or otherwise disturbing the group. I didn't have to address it, the group told her that her behavior was unacceptable, and I was able to stand with them instead of standing alone and isolated.
A lot of us have been there - we have been embarrassed to be associated with such public drunken antics.
Slowly, I learned to walk away from them. Sometimes literally for 5 miles to get home.
I am learning to not run in and fix things that she ought to be able to do herself. It is still hard for me. Yesterday before she went to work, she had to figure out low tire pressure, because she hadn't taken care of it Tuesday. Last night, she filled her washer fluid in her car and figured out how to replace one of the headlight bulbs. I like working on cars, but I set a boundary that her car maintenance is her own responsibility. She felt proud, independent, and accomplished that she'd figured the lightbulb out. If I had run in and fixed things, she would feel dependent on me, instead of capable and accomplished, so I think letting her take care of her own issues is a good thing.
Good for you for walking away. Boundary setting is hard. I cannot emphasis enough how hard it was for me, and how hard it still is. over three years in the program and with me practicing these things, she's started to accept my boundaries when I say "I am not going to talk about this right now" or "let me think about that". It is refreshing. Walking away, setting boundaries, that still feels like lifting something heavier than me, but at least it is lighter than the 300 pound weight I started with three years ago
Keep coming back, and remember, his behavior reflects on him. You don't have to participate or engage. You can chose to do something different.
Change is challenging for the simple fact it's the unknown. That's why sometimes when the A stops drinking it is harder to deal with them because it's all new .. it's no different to them when I start to do something different.
Keep coming back .. Hugs S :)
It's so foreign to me now. I've been living "bully-free" for 3 years now and yeah, things are hard, but I do what I want when I want and there's no fear of "what will he do next" in my life any more. I'm still "with" him btw, he just doesn't live here and if he gets crazy drunk and tries to come to my house, he knows I will call the cops. It's taken a few tries lol, but he doesn't do it anymore. Do you want that? Would you like to go to sleep each night only worrying about your own crap instead of having every waking moment hijacked by fear of what "he might do"?
Never mind the logistics, I know there are a thousand reasons why it isn't practical or possible, but is it something you'd like?
It's OK to say no, because maybe you don't know who you are anymore, and the idea of you by yourself is terrifying. Maybe the drama feels like all of who you are right now.
But think it over. There are alternatives to living as a hostage. You have so much more power than you think you do, hon. All you have to do to make one of those options happen is think...how would you like your life to be? Does it centre around a childish, bullying man-baby?
Yes is an OK answer. It was yes for me once too. Just be honest with yourself. What do you want?
The now ex A put me in the middle all the time. He also had very very expensive temper tantrums
Boundary setting is very hard. It takes a lot of practice it is not about you doingnsimething #wrong# It is about you learning new skills. ..
Be kind to yourself stop beating yourself up. You will have his moments and really hard ones Detaching is really really hard work in the beginning. It is like lifting a 300 lb weight first off
If you gave a sponsor or people to call it really helps. There is a chat room here too When I was in the thick of it I just craved to be heard
One other thing that us really helpful us to have a gratitude practice. It is pretty hard to practice gratitude every day I emailed a sponsor and some other people things I was grateful for
When I was dealing with all this in a relationship I felt great shame I also was absolutely enraged I have had to work hard to learn how to deescalate. Take time outs find thinbgs that make me feel better. I really work hard these days to not be in situations that trigger me. I let it go when I get triggered but I work on not veingbaroynd people who seek to make things worse. Sometimes that requires creativity
Remember the alcoholic us ak ways trying to set up situations so he can feel like a victim and have an excuse to drink For whatever reason he needs to be in this aggrieved role .
You don't have to take on the role assigned to you.
Doctor looks at the guy and says "OK, don't move it like that"
I heard this once in an alanon meeting. While it's an old joke, the person doing the topic segwayed into what's your part, why do you keep putting yourself in that position, and so forth. One person afterward shared "if I don't it will be worse" and the guy who had done the topic said OK, so doing it, how's that working for you? Are you happy? It will be worse...OK, and they talked about it...but you won't be there for the worse! There is always an answer. Detach. Walk away. Don't answer the phone or texts because you have boundaries. When he gets home, if he's worse, leave, detach, walk away. Whenever he does that keep walking away. Keep honoring your boundary. The guy walked through it with this person. It was very nice to see the tools at work, and someone learning them.
Changed attitudes...and changed behavior...leads to and aids recovery...our recovery.
Elabella I think you did great. Yes, it's confusing and I often doubt myself too. But you walking away and setting that boundary took a lot of courage. Was there some other decision that you could have made that would have made things easier? Maybe but it's really unlikely. I know that my in my own experience my ExAW started having a lot of problems when we both started our programs around the same time. I was starting to change the way I went about things. Nothing ever set her off more than me setting a healthy boundary though.
I could do all my meetings and have all the literature but for me to say "No, I'm not comfortable with that" was unheard of and was met with increased insanity. It then got bad enough that I had to end the marriage. There are no easy answers and I've heard other's stories that were much worse than mine but they somehow kept the relationship. I believe I made the best decision I could for my family and I.
It took me time in recovery to realize I had given away my power. I took action based on how I predicted others would act/react to it. I had been doing this for years. Those who came before me suggested small, simple self-care things that helped me grow my own esteem and begin to take back my power.
In time, I got to a point where I would just simply state, "I have an appointment and will be back in 2 hours." If there were questions, taunts, names, etc. I just stated the serenity prayer and walked out the door. I just kept focusing on me and doing what I could that was suggested and recovery led me to sanity. We talk in recovery about 'acting our way to right thinking instead of thinking our way to right actions, and this has been my experience.
So - keep doing you as best you can. Take small steps towards self-care - a walk, a bubble-bath, a safe place to detach, a plan B to spend time/the night to get away from the insanity - small things each day to help you move forward. You can do this and more will always be revealed!!