Boundaries request isn't being respected (very long)
lgnutah said
Mar 6, 2018
I have a 37 year old college educated daughter who suffers from what seems to be anxiety/depression/ocd exacerbated by alcoholism/prescription and other drug abuse, and a tragic history of domestic violence and sexual assault. She has seemingly adopted the emotional abuse which was heaped on her by her ex and now uses it on others. She has never worked a program (thinks AA is for losers though she sometimes uses self help books), does not want any medical or psychological intervention (says she can't trust them), has no health insurance to pay for any intervention, and will not apply for government assistance programs. She spends the bulk of her time at home watching crime shows and what I consider sordid movies,. She is not interested in regular employment (thinks it would be stupid to start at a low paying job and work her way up by being a dedicated employee when she can get $500 in an evening), and has managed to live since her divorce 7 years ago by manipulating well to do, lonely men who pay her bills, give her money, and buy her things (including a condominium and a car). In my judgemental view, I think she has lost her moral compass.
I understand her life choices and lifestyle are her business. I have enabled her as I did mistakenly believe for some time I could help her "get back on her feet" after her divorce by paying her tuition so she could finish college and by peridically paying her bills. I have recently told her that I will no longer do this (though I am financially able to).
I love my daughter but cannot deny that I am becoming aware that the person she is now bears very little resemblance to the sweet, gentle, kind, thoughtful daughter who we raised . I suppose it is the memory of that person (that I am still sure still lies embedded inside her), that keeps me trying to encourage and support her. And most basic, parental love.
So here is my dilemma. When we talk on the phone or text, I ask her to please focus on her "positive" interests, goals, interactions) and not share with me past events involving slights and poor treatment she has received, drug use/intoxication stories, deviant or immoral behavior she and her asoociates engage in, racial slurs, etc. I also have told her that emotionally abusive texts are unacceptable (every few weeks she will send me a torrent of vulgarly worded texts full of recriminations, assaulting my character and lauding her lifestyle and associates).
To achieve this:
I have tried saying "I need to go" and end the conversation (but often she will continue to text me repeatedly telling me to call her as she has something funny to tell me---if I call back, there is never a funny story...
During phone conversations, I have tried reminders that a topic she is speaking about is unacceptable followed by hanging up if she persists (after which I get a torrent of abusive texts about my rudeness and childishness).
I have tried setting the phone down so I don't have to hear about topics I find distressing (and she will go on and on not even realizing I haven't spoken) then periodically picking up the phone and interceding with a change of topic....which only works momentarily as she will return to the unsavory .
I have tried turning my phone off when she has descended into her most abusive states of mind, and only responding when some days have passed and I see her texts are more "rational" (this is where I am today).
I believe the problem is that I want to have a "normal" mother-adult daughter relationship....and apparently this is not possible. So, what can I do?
SerenityRUS said
Mar 6, 2018
Hugs,
I realized something with my oldest that I have realized with my mother .. when the conversation is no longer productive I can end it.
Would you be open to blocking her calls and texts for 24 hours until the tirade ends? Sometimes the best way to deal with a bully is to just go radio silent. They may spin harder for a bit however they will realize that their behavior no longer gets what they want. That worked with my XAH when he was in the crazies .. I didn't have to go there with him.
2 statements I have used with both my mom and my oldest is I'm sorry you feel that way or I hear you and you are entitled to your opinion, the conversation is done. I also have used with my oldest is, that is your choice (or perception) of the situation, I am sorry you feel that way. I don't try to defend, argue or explain why I feel the way I do.
I choose not to engage with crazy, .. LOL .. boy do I mean that seriously. Over this past December I realized something looking back however I had verbalized I felt like I was dealing with a drug addict and as it turns out kiddo was coming off pills in a big way. So I don't know that psychology was the best thing for my kiddo with the pills. Without treatment and other options of dealing with the issues that were going on pills and no therapy for coping behaviors I didn't find it beneficial. I have always heard addressing addiction first and then figuring out the therapy is the best way to go .. my kid went in with no addiction so I can't imagine how hard it is for someone with an addiction. They gave him an endless supply of Xanax which was really scary.
What I see now is my kid is addressing issues with more traditional therapy as well as choosing mentorships and group. So not open to this last semester or any other time I heard about it. This time has been different because this time .. the true issue of changing behavior is there. I don't like the school shooter boyfriend and that one is tough. The subject is being brought up and I am just saying those are your choices and while I support you .. I don't support this choice and I'm not open to discussion. I did let him know I'm really glad he's choosing the therapy and so on.
The other thing I have seriously tried to focus on with everyone in my life is even if they are a pain in my butt .. finding something positive to say and when someone is spinning hard finding something I actually like about them. Sometimes that is not easy. It is easy to point out every singe flaw in another person without seeing even the smallest thing .. a real compliment is not enabling. I like that color you are wearing .. whatever .. LOL. Something simple .. something genuine though because fake is fake. If I don't have anything nice to say .. sometimes just being silent is the nicest thing I can do.
You still have choices if you are willing to deal with the consequences of those choices no different than anyone else.
Hugs S :)
lgnutah said
Mar 6, 2018
Thank you. That is where I am now-phone has been turned off for 24 hrs to give me a reprieve-but I just turned it on to take care of some things that I can only access by phone and see 8 texts from her (my phone can block phone calls only, auto-rejected numbers can still leave texts and voice mails.). I have not read them (would gladly read if I had a crystal ball and could know they won't be abusive).
SerenityRUS said
Mar 6, 2018
There are 2 things you could do .. goggle what you want to do with your phone by putting in the make and model and carrier OR go to a shop and ask one of the little tech heads to help you .. I think you should be able to move things and not be notified they come in .. it will depend on your phone carrier.
Phone messages are easy .. 3-3-7 .. fast forward, delete .. there is no use listening to crazy talk. It's a form of self punishment or at least that's my opinion. Honestly I don't take it personally .. it's just crazy talk it says way more about the other person than it does about me.
I just encourage you to continue to investigate what works for you. I only would read through those messages with my sponsor. There was no use putting myself through that without support. I have learned to counter every negative remark with something positive about myself.
Hugs S :)
el-cee said
Mar 6, 2018
It's a hard one because we are viewed as failures as mothers by society. if we let go of our adult children. When alcoholism is involved though these social norms and attachments can't exist. It sounds like a power struggle. She wants the power to effect you. She may still have the power. Maybe it's an inside job for you. Why does she still have the power? I'm pondering this one with my own son. He is just about the only person alive that has and always has the power to worry me and effect me. I'm working the steps and unkind if uncovering fear as the main reason for this. Fears from my own faulty beliefs, projecting into the future and imagining all sorts if catastrophes. I'm hoping that by uncovering the truth inside me that it will lose its power. I can find the faulty belief and let it go. Maybe the steps will help you along with a sponsor. In the meantime a practical solution could be teĺibg youe daughter not to contact you do t answer the phone to her and that you will phone her. Take back the power.
Bo said
Mar 6, 2018
When I first heard and learned about boundaries I got it. Immediately. Whatever it was, the idea, concept, how to do it, implement it, honor it, all of it -- it just made complete sense to me. That's just me. So when I hear about people struggling because a loved one, someone, an alcoholic, etc., is not "honoring" or "respecting" a boundary, initially, it is very perplexing to me. How can that be?
What I most often find is that it really isn't a boundary in the practical sense. But, of course, each case is different.
The way I see it, a boundary IS NOT designed to get SOMEONE ELSE to change THEIR behavior. It is not designed to control or fix someone else. A boundary is there for ME. I take for granted the alcoholic is going to do what they do. They are not supposed to honor the boundary. The boundary is not IF THEN...it's WHEN THEN. Sure, some may honor it, but don't count on it, LOL. So, for me, my boundary was -- when we talk on the phone, I am not going to engage/continue the conversation if it is focused on all of the negative going on's, the past, fault, blame, negativity, etc. At first, my boundary was WHEN she does this, I was simply going to say, I am sorry you feel that way. Or, I am sure you will figure it out. Or something along those lines -- something that made it clear I was not going to "enable" and participate in that type of discussion. It worked. Then, the dynamic shifted. When it got bad, and she started to get angry at me, I changed the boundary and said, if you are going to focus on all of that, and be upset with me because I don't want to engage, then I am going to politely end the conversation. As far as the texts, I once got 38 texts during the course of one evening. And they weren't I love you texts, LOL. My boundary was -- I was not going to reply. Plain and simple. Even when the texts said please call me. I didn't. When we spoke later on and she asked if I got the text, I said I did, but I did not read it in detail because I will not accept unacceptable behavior, and I will not engage in a discussion having to do with that either. I never, never once defended myself against attacks which attacked my integrity. Never once. I wouldn't engage when I was being called names or anything of the like. I would not hang up on her, but I would say I am hanging up now. And if she called back -- I did not answer the phone! Period. Was I a victim or a volunteer? I would be a volunteer if I answered the phone.
I find this simple. What I used to find confusing is when doing the work and "hoping" or "expecting" or focusing on what I wanted -- that never worked. My boundary was there to protect me, and to make me healthy, to help me get better. Not the other person. More to follow.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 6th of March 2018 02:47:21 PM
hotrod said
Mar 6, 2018
Hello(((Ignutah)) positive thoughts go out to you as you travel this painful road.
I Agree with Bo-- Boundaries are established to protect me from the insanity of this disease not to control another. Remembering hat I am powerless over others and truly accepting that fact, i too was able to set up boundaries that worked for me regardless of what my child was doing.
lgnutah said
Mar 6, 2018
Thank you all for your insight.
Yes, I need to remind myself that the boundary is for me to observe-when I hear unacceptable words I need to protect my boundary by ending the conversation. (btw, I always announce that I am going to hang up, and why, before I hang up)
Iamhere said
Mar 6, 2018
(((Ignatah))) - I can relate to your post and share.....what I learned about me was I felt some level of 'guilt' for how my offspring turned out. It took me leaning into the program and working the steps to accept that I did the best I could and that they were not raised the way they are 'now'. It's like a great recipe that is made 'personal' by adding in different ingredients - some will like the meal better and others will not.
The easiest way for me to impose my boundaries with my offspring was to 'act as if' they were not. I had to learn that I would NOT tolerate unacceptable behavior(s) from my AH or others yet felt 'uncertain' and wanted to give a pass to my boys. I made excuses in my head to trick my heart and the step work revealed that each time I was inconsistent, I was hurting me as well as them. I did learn that they will never grow up and be accountable if I enable them - in any way.
I have blocked mine on the phone many times. I have left events, my own home and their home. I don't lay the phone down nor do I announce I am getting off - I just hang up if they are abusive or if they are sharing beyond my boundaries. I had to learn and be reminded that adult or not, I am not their friend - I am their mother....and it's perfectly acceptable for me to deem some topics off-limits!
I learned to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. It's as simple as, "I am uncomfortable with this conversation. Is there anything else? I never own the monkey unless it's mine - and I have formally announced I don't do chaos/drama any more. It's taken time to reteach my boys what is acceptable to me and what is not. I went without boundaries before program, so there has been some retooling (me) and retraining (them).
My sponsor was very helpful in suggesting different responses and ideas. The most important thing I have learned about my boys is they are adults, and while I will always love them, I am not required to be held hostage to their insanity - this disease or mental health...(((Hugs)))
Bo said
Mar 6, 2018
Another thing, for me, when I was in it -- the recipient of texts, calls, unacceptable behavior, etc. -- I focused on nothing else other than my boundary...I focused on what action I was supposed take, what I was supposed to do. Anything else, for me, took me away and distracted me from what I was supposed to do.
I never blocked her calls, but I didn't reply, engage, etc. When someone hits me the ping pong ball...I just put down the paddle!!! They can't play ping pong by themselves. There's no ping pong game if I put down the paddle. I was able to get to the point where I simply would not accept unacceptable behavior. It didn't matter -- text, phone calls, whatever. The phone calls were more common. The texts were easy to not reply to. But the calls were constant. Whenever they got negative -- I had my process. First, it was, I am sure you will figure it out. Second was I am sorry you feel that way. At a certain point, I politely said I am not going to get into all of this with you, or I am not going to engage in this discussion. Sometimes, I was more clear and said -- well, I will talk to you some other time. When pressed, I said, this is not a conversation I am going to participate in...and when you bring up all these things, when the conversation takes on this tone, complexion, etc., I am going to politely end the conversation and hang up.
It was clear to her that I wasn't going to be a partner in these discussions, I wasn't going to be an ear, or give her an audience of any type. I never, never fell for the "call me back, need to tell you something" routine. The alcoholic/other person...wants what they want. Victim or volunteer?
AnnieFenk321 said
Mar 7, 2018
I just wanted to say that I appreciated what Bo says about a boundary being for ME and not for the other person. I think this confuses me and I think that a boundary is the same as a 'consequence' which in my house growing up was basically a punishment. The idea of natural consequences and healthy boundaries are not something that comes easily to me even though I have been 'talking the talk' for years.
Maresie said
Mar 7, 2018
I think one of the things about boundaries for me is that I used to do them to try to get other people to change. That never happened Although I certainly have boundaries I think these days I am still learning more about them daily They are by no means iron clad
I think it is pretty hard to #let go# IF you go to AA meetings you will hear plenty of people with a story close to your daughters The good thing is that what you will also hear us they stopped
Of course it is hard to hear the continued takes if woe and chaos. These days while I will listen to someone with that issue I am really limited in how long jt will go on for The other thing is I don't have the obsession to #fix# any more .
My whole self worth was tied up in being #there # for others
I don't have a life full of chaos any more but I certainly have a life full of challenged. I am constantly assessing relationships and working on boundaries it is a continual process
There was certainly a long period of grief for me that I didn't get to have a relationship I craved with my sister's I was bitterly disappointed and angry for a longtime I am much much better about being willing to #let go# in the present
I have some kind of a relationshio.witj one of my sister's niuw.
I have to say it is like talking to someone I have just met. Her level off denial us phenomenal I know I took het denial as a personal affront before Denial is a powerful defence mechanism. As a child it certainly saved.me in adulthood it was very destructive
I hope you will keep coming back seek out support get a sponsor.
I realized something with my oldest that I have realized with my mother .. when the conversation is no longer productive I can end it.
Would you be open to blocking her calls and texts for 24 hours until the tirade ends? Sometimes the best way to deal with a bully is to just go radio silent. They may spin harder for a bit however they will realize that their behavior no longer gets what they want. That worked with my XAH when he was in the crazies .. I didn't have to go there with him.
2 statements I have used with both my mom and my oldest is I'm sorry you feel that way or I hear you and you are entitled to your opinion, the conversation is done. I also have used with my oldest is, that is your choice (or perception) of the situation, I am sorry you feel that way. I don't try to defend, argue or explain why I feel the way I do.
I choose not to engage with crazy, .. LOL .. boy do I mean that seriously. Over this past December I realized something looking back however I had verbalized I felt like I was dealing with a drug addict and as it turns out kiddo was coming off pills in a big way. So I don't know that psychology was the best thing for my kiddo with the pills. Without treatment and other options of dealing with the issues that were going on pills and no therapy for coping behaviors I didn't find it beneficial. I have always heard addressing addiction first and then figuring out the therapy is the best way to go .. my kid went in with no addiction so I can't imagine how hard it is for someone with an addiction. They gave him an endless supply of Xanax which was really scary.
What I see now is my kid is addressing issues with more traditional therapy as well as choosing mentorships and group. So not open to this last semester or any other time I heard about it. This time has been different because this time .. the true issue of changing behavior is there. I don't like the school shooter boyfriend and that one is tough. The subject is being brought up and I am just saying those are your choices and while I support you .. I don't support this choice and I'm not open to discussion. I did let him know I'm really glad he's choosing the therapy and so on.
The other thing I have seriously tried to focus on with everyone in my life is even if they are a pain in my butt .. finding something positive to say and when someone is spinning hard finding something I actually like about them. Sometimes that is not easy. It is easy to point out every singe flaw in another person without seeing even the smallest thing .. a real compliment is not enabling. I like that color you are wearing .. whatever .. LOL. Something simple .. something genuine though because fake is fake. If I don't have anything nice to say .. sometimes just being silent is the nicest thing I can do.
You still have choices if you are willing to deal with the consequences of those choices no different than anyone else.
Hugs S :)
Phone messages are easy .. 3-3-7 .. fast forward, delete .. there is no use listening to crazy talk. It's a form of self punishment or at least that's my opinion. Honestly I don't take it personally .. it's just crazy talk it says way more about the other person than it does about me.
I just encourage you to continue to investigate what works for you. I only would read through those messages with my sponsor. There was no use putting myself through that without support. I have learned to counter every negative remark with something positive about myself.
Hugs S :)
When I first heard and learned about boundaries I got it. Immediately. Whatever it was, the idea, concept, how to do it, implement it, honor it, all of it -- it just made complete sense to me. That's just me. So when I hear about people struggling because a loved one, someone, an alcoholic, etc., is not "honoring" or "respecting" a boundary, initially, it is very perplexing to me. How can that be?
What I most often find is that it really isn't a boundary in the practical sense. But, of course, each case is different.
The way I see it, a boundary IS NOT designed to get SOMEONE ELSE to change THEIR behavior. It is not designed to control or fix someone else. A boundary is there for ME. I take for granted the alcoholic is going to do what they do. They are not supposed to honor the boundary. The boundary is not IF THEN...it's WHEN THEN. Sure, some may honor it, but don't count on it, LOL. So, for me, my boundary was -- when we talk on the phone, I am not going to engage/continue the conversation if it is focused on all of the negative going on's, the past, fault, blame, negativity, etc. At first, my boundary was WHEN she does this, I was simply going to say, I am sorry you feel that way. Or, I am sure you will figure it out. Or something along those lines -- something that made it clear I was not going to "enable" and participate in that type of discussion. It worked. Then, the dynamic shifted. When it got bad, and she started to get angry at me, I changed the boundary and said, if you are going to focus on all of that, and be upset with me because I don't want to engage, then I am going to politely end the conversation. As far as the texts, I once got 38 texts during the course of one evening. And they weren't I love you texts, LOL. My boundary was -- I was not going to reply. Plain and simple. Even when the texts said please call me. I didn't. When we spoke later on and she asked if I got the text, I said I did, but I did not read it in detail because I will not accept unacceptable behavior, and I will not engage in a discussion having to do with that either. I never, never once defended myself against attacks which attacked my integrity. Never once. I wouldn't engage when I was being called names or anything of the like. I would not hang up on her, but I would say I am hanging up now. And if she called back -- I did not answer the phone! Period. Was I a victim or a volunteer? I would be a volunteer if I answered the phone.
I find this simple. What I used to find confusing is when doing the work and "hoping" or "expecting" or focusing on what I wanted -- that never worked. My boundary was there to protect me, and to make me healthy, to help me get better. Not the other person. More to follow.
-- Edited by Bo on Tuesday 6th of March 2018 02:47:21 PM
I Agree with Bo-- Boundaries are established to protect me from the insanity of this disease not to control another. Remembering hat I am powerless over others and truly accepting that fact, i too was able to set up boundaries that worked for me regardless of what my child was doing.
The easiest way for me to impose my boundaries with my offspring was to 'act as if' they were not. I had to learn that I would NOT tolerate unacceptable behavior(s) from my AH or others yet felt 'uncertain' and wanted to give a pass to my boys. I made excuses in my head to trick my heart and the step work revealed that each time I was inconsistent, I was hurting me as well as them. I did learn that they will never grow up and be accountable if I enable them - in any way.
I have blocked mine on the phone many times. I have left events, my own home and their home. I don't lay the phone down nor do I announce I am getting off - I just hang up if they are abusive or if they are sharing beyond my boundaries. I had to learn and be reminded that adult or not, I am not their friend - I am their mother....and it's perfectly acceptable for me to deem some topics off-limits!
I learned to say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. It's as simple as, "I am uncomfortable with this conversation. Is there anything else? I never own the monkey unless it's mine - and I have formally announced I don't do chaos/drama any more. It's taken time to reteach my boys what is acceptable to me and what is not. I went without boundaries before program, so there has been some retooling (me) and retraining (them).
My sponsor was very helpful in suggesting different responses and ideas. The most important thing I have learned about my boys is they are adults, and while I will always love them, I am not required to be held hostage to their insanity - this disease or mental health...(((Hugs)))
I never blocked her calls, but I didn't reply, engage, etc. When someone hits me the ping pong ball...I just put down the paddle!!! They can't play ping pong by themselves. There's no ping pong game if I put down the paddle. I was able to get to the point where I simply would not accept unacceptable behavior. It didn't matter -- text, phone calls, whatever. The phone calls were more common. The texts were easy to not reply to. But the calls were constant. Whenever they got negative -- I had my process. First, it was, I am sure you will figure it out. Second was I am sorry you feel that way. At a certain point, I politely said I am not going to get into all of this with you, or I am not going to engage in this discussion. Sometimes, I was more clear and said -- well, I will talk to you some other time. When pressed, I said, this is not a conversation I am going to participate in...and when you bring up all these things, when the conversation takes on this tone, complexion, etc., I am going to politely end the conversation and hang up.
It was clear to her that I wasn't going to be a partner in these discussions, I wasn't going to be an ear, or give her an audience of any type. I never, never fell for the "call me back, need to tell you something" routine. The alcoholic/other person...wants what they want. Victim or volunteer?
I think one of the things about boundaries for me is that I used to do them to try to get other people to change. That never happened Although I certainly have boundaries I think these days I am still learning more about them daily They are by no means iron clad
I think it is pretty hard to #let go# IF you go to AA meetings you will hear plenty of people with a story close to your daughters The good thing is that what you will also hear us they stopped
Of course it is hard to hear the continued takes if woe and chaos. These days while I will listen to someone with that issue I am really limited in how long jt will go on for The other thing is I don't have the obsession to #fix# any more .
My whole self worth was tied up in being #there # for others
I don't have a life full of chaos any more but I certainly have a life full of challenged. I am constantly assessing relationships and working on boundaries it is a continual process
There was certainly a long period of grief for me that I didn't get to have a relationship I craved with my sister's I was bitterly disappointed and angry for a longtime I am much much better about being willing to #let go# in the present
I have some kind of a relationshio.witj one of my sister's niuw.
I have to say it is like talking to someone I have just met. Her level off denial us phenomenal I know I took het denial as a personal affront before Denial is a powerful defence mechanism. As a child it certainly saved.me in adulthood it was very destructive
I hope you will keep coming back seek out support get a sponsor.