Okay this post is a reaction to the previous post using the theme "There but for the grace of God".
When and where I got into program I found myself attending meetings on the grounds of a religious sect and I balked because religion was one of the addictions in my life which tore up family relationships and my first marriage. My first spouse was a religious fanat-ic and along with her group of believers ran roughshod over our marriage and my life. The occupied with her support my home and my family and we were doomed. Though a Christian from birth, after two years of marriage I was now a member of the church of the devil openly and also in regard to my children. She became the addict and years later when I was practicing the amends for my part (rage and anger) of this program I was told that they came to understand that they destroyed many families because of their actions and beliefs.
I was very leery of attending Al-Anon at this other church and then HP being who HP is wanted to help me to keep coming back when in an early meeting it was said, "We are not a religion, however if you practice this program religiously...you will come to understand". I knew what was being said and intended...live this program daily, walk and practice these steps constantly, accept a power greater than your self intimately and constantly and do not let anyone (alcoholic) or thing (alcoholism or drug addiction) take you from it.
That is what I do constantly, daily, and many people ask what church I attend and such and I don't answer or discuss religion. "Just watch the walk" i act. There have been so many changes in and to my life as I do this program religiously. ((((hugs))))
hotrod said
Feb 15, 2018
(((JerryF))) Well said My Friend . I too entered alanon with negative experiences of organized religions and will be eternally grateful to Alanon for providing me with the spiritual tools to access my Higher Power . Religiously I too practice this spiritual program.
mandymott said
Feb 15, 2018
I am not sure how one is to approach it as an atheist = I do not and will not believe in any kind of higher power (no I cannot modify it to mean some less specific god - I am not an agnostic, am an atheist). It has been one and major thing that made me unable to go even if other aspects would help me. I know this is hard to understand for non atheists but it is equally hard for me to believe in HP as it is for an adult to believe in Santa Clause. I wish I could get around this.
Iamhere said
Feb 15, 2018
Jerry - great share, ESH and wisdom!! Thank you for the discussion. I'm like you and Betty too - was raised with religion and had stepped far away before I found recovery. I can admit today that I was not thrilled to see mention of a higher power and God in the 12 steps, and seriously wondered if I had landed in a cult of similar. Yet, even with my reservations, they had something I wanted - pure joy and peace of mind - which kept me curious enough to return. In time, I did find that practicing the suggestions gave me enough results to continue on, and I too religiously practice this program. I am grateful I was able to step beyond my own ego and let go of my conception of my past enough to leap with little/no faith...
mandymott - I can't relate to your position as I was exposed to religion and related teachings before I could walk or talk. I have been in the rooms of 12 step recovery for more than 30 years, and have seen/known many atheists who found success. I can't explain how as it's not my story to tell but I do know it's possible and I've been able to witness it. If I could have found another 'way' to get where I am today, I might have taken it - I am all about fast gratification/success especially when I am in pain. Yet, nothing else I tried helped restore me to sanity like Al-Anon did. Keep coming back!
hotrod said
Feb 15, 2018
Mandymott I do hear you and in the beginning of my journey, I looked about and found that the program, and the principles worked well and could serve as my Higher Power so I used Alanon philosophy as my HP. It worked well
Jerry F said
Feb 15, 2018
Mandy I understand as there have been atheist in the program who have taught me much even about God (god) and no God/god. I am a theologian and know the stories of many peoples gods. I have arrived at god for me which reduced my dependence on luck, superstition, and more. I have had events occur in my life where more learned and professional men and women have told me "there is something going on here we just don't understand" and they didn't mention god/God, Higher Power or else and yet they perfectly described what was happening in my life. These events are usual to me now and were not when I first arrived at Al-Anon and they focused on parts of my personality and life which were not what the event was about yet came to solution for me and for others.
My experience today regarding a Higher Power was partially brought about by an Al-Anon fellow who was a Blackfoot Indian. I held his hand as he closed my home group meeting as a Blackfoot indian and I was able to understand and fully accept that he was then speaking to his "creator father...or Creator Father". I then have done some study and research about the ancient peoples and their connection with life and came to the understanding that they knew and knew that they knew how this even I call my life came about and continues.
I no longer identify my self as catholic. I am a Hawaiian National born and raised and reconnected to the culture of my birth thoroughly connected by spirit, each others spirits and the spirits of all other living things such as the Bird of Paradise in my Avatar.
Mahalo for your share. ((((hugs))))
bud said
Feb 15, 2018
Thank you for this Jerry! I had a religious upbringing and grew tired of the hypocrisies and lost my spirituality. Although I was a difficult case, Alanon did restore my spirituality and a growing faith in my HP. I am so grateful for without this, I could not have a chance at having serenity.
MandyMott Although I had a religious upbringing, I had lost my spirituality. However, through Alanon, I have connected to a spiritual awareness that is supportive. Nature... a life-force .... ? Although it may be in a very different manner, I don't know that having spirituality is necessarily in conflict with being an atheist.
DavidG said
Feb 16, 2018
Good topic Jerry,
When we begin to talk about topics in an adult way- it is a good sign of healthy growth.
I used to feel for members who were not believers- especially as they navigated the steps. The slogan "Let go and let God" for example. And the first word in the serenity prayer. [At one time, in my mind I changed the first word to 'please'.]
I don't suppose I would get to the end of the topic is I constantly sought perfection. I will and should still pursue hopes and dreams. I think idealism is healthy, so long as I apply the serenity prayer. [And should I change the word "prayer" to 'petition'. ???]
I found hypocrisy in my family and community. I sometimes found it in groups. But until I sought it in myself was I able to change it. Let it begin with me.
thanks y'all
D.
Bo said
Feb 16, 2018
In the opening of many of the meetings I go to...it says...al-anon is a spiritual program, not a religious one.
I have always believed this to be true.
Jerry F said
Feb 16, 2018
I did also Bo and up until I got some grace in my early home group that said "and if we work it religiously" which for me came to mean 24/7 day in and day out which is what I still do now 39 years later. Al-Anon is the only way I can live my life today and my cultural spirits gather around me and join in. ((((hugs))))
Bo said
Feb 17, 2018
Jerry, I certainly would agree with how one "works it" or "practices it" and doing so religiously -- and ultimately, one lives it. It certainly is a way of life. How one gets there, is their own journey. I was more speaking to the program itself, as a curriculum. That, for me, al-anon as a program, I have always felt that al-anon is a spiritual program, and not a religious one. But, that's just me. I always was able to distinguish, for me and me alone, the difference between a higher power as it relates to my program and spirituality, and God as it relates to my religion. I find in certain respects they are the same, and in others they are different. And, again, that's just for me.
Tude said
Feb 17, 2018
I can see why many would think it is a religious program though. In the steps, traditions and literature......all refer to God. That really would throw off anyone looking at it from the outside. The spirituality is up to a person fully. What may be God for me, may be cup of coffee for others, it may be a group or whatever. The whole point being it is a we program, vs a me program that helps us each find our own spirituality and not discuss or push one anothers opinions on anyone. Like politics........these things are not part of this program for discussion. The 12 steps and traditions are truly a way of living and while I or someone else may share our personal ESH referring to God, it may be someone else sharing their ESH in an entirely different way. One thing for sure, you can't take another persons ESH, it is personal and their own. Each one an individual regardless of who or what their HP is. It works and that is what is so amazing about it all.
MeTwo2 said
Feb 17, 2018
I think what i love about this program is there is experience 'only .. we learn by experience only; ours an others. i was told early on to keep an open mind & heart an not to judge good bad right wrong meaning there is no one right; there is experience only. Today I can say to the athiests, according to 'their life experiences, there is no God, according to 'my life experiences, there is. The same with according to other's experience it may not be by the grace of God, according to my life experience it is but for the grace of god. We're we to swap experiences, it would stand to reason we would also swap beliefs. (an maybe who knows .. maybe that's possibly a key part to the real wisdom in learning the difference)
When it comes to hypocrisy and words matching actions; this is why i like step 1. we turn 'away from hypocrisy (inside ourselves) when we honestly and humbly admit our wrongs, our own words finally begin to match our actions. first step if we ever want to hit step 2 in any one area we move through.
I am still in the religion that scared me (by choice today) but i am also realizing very slowly it wasn't really fear of god that kept me stuck or sick there .. I believe this was more about fear of the people and the confused messages. (distorted thinking & misunderstandings of the people (effected by alcoholism ?) I never had a power greater than 'them .. i am grateful for a little better understanding at least today than just the 'one 'i used to have (which wasn't really understanding for me at all as it 'never brought compassion). The aa book reads: Catholics will be 'become 'better Catholics (then the ones they were without recovery) i believe this happens (as the hearts and minds begin to open) (begin to 'question themselves or learn questioning anything is ok and to begin to 'think about things rather than merely obsess (stay stuck on the fear of judgment) as i learned for 'years) i respect your own beliefs again slowly becoming aware deeper if i had walked in 'your shoes i would have the 'same. In a sense for me it was like being in church without a higher power period; I just could not see past the people (too many blocks (too much anger and fear inside me). Like anywhere today, I would never make it (and didn't) without a program. Too many effects I'm powerless over without. i am definitely still moving through that stuck fear but realizing it is beginning to move a little more with me as i move. clarifying for me too that nowhere in this am i sharing i understand everything half laugh .. i am very much merely moving toward understanding for me however slow.
Great share as usual, Jerry .. I appreciate how you learned to work this program religiously (found a way that works for 'you) as well as one that will help the program work for others ..
at the risk of this being very long going to repost the promises in here and hope that's ok.
THE AL-ANON PROMISES
If we willingly surrender ourselves to the spiritual discipline of the Twelve Steps, our lives will be transformed. We will become mature, responsible individuals with a great capacity for joy, fulfillment, and wonder.
Though we may never be perfect, continued spiritual progress will reveal to us our enormous potential. We will discover that we are worthy of love and loving.
We will love others without losing ourselves, and will learn to accept love in return. (( this one is hard for catholics; me ))
Our sight, once clouded and confused, will clear and we will be able to perceive reality and recognize truth.
Courage and fellowship will replace fear.
We will be able to risk failure to develop new, hidden talents.Our lives, no matter how battered and degraded, will yield hope to share with others.
We will begin to feel and will come to know the vastness of our emotions, but we will not be slaves to them.
Our secrets will no longer bind us in shame.
As we gain the ability to forgive ourselves,our families, and the world, our choices will expand.
With dignity we will stand for ourselves, but not against our fellows.
Serenity and peace will have meaning for us as we allow our lives and the lives of those we love to flow day by day with God's ease, balance, and grace.
No longer terrified, we will discover we are free to delight in life's paradox, mystery, and awe.
We will laugh more.
Fear will be replaced by faith, and gratitude will come naturally as we realize that our Higher Power is doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves.
p. 269-270 "From Survival to Recovery"
I truly hope my post offends no one. Especially You Jerry F .. You are a very much loved and appreciated fellow alanon member who helps teach me and many (you help to open our hearts & minds through your honesty and shared wisdom) which carries to many so much hope .. (we have blackfoot in our family) the native beliefs have also always appealed to me as well though i admit i am not fully aware of them .. but you know what ? after reading this share, i would love to learn more from them as well .. thanks again
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Saturday 17th of February 2018 10:42:14 AM
Jerry F said
Feb 18, 2018
"If you keep and open mind you will find help" no offense can be taken with that principle Me 2 too especially by me. It is my sole intention, my spirit, to work this program as it was brought to me by so many others and supported with me that I live it in a way that it puts me right with my HP and others. (((((hugs)))))
MeTwo2 said
Feb 18, 2018
thanks Jerry .. i love that .. it's through that very understanding that brings unity through the principles of the program .. it's truly a 'refreshing 'change ((( hugs received and returned )))
Okay this post is a reaction to the previous post using the theme "There but for the grace of God".
When and where I got into program I found myself attending meetings on the grounds of a religious sect and I balked because religion was one of the addictions in my life which tore up family relationships and my first marriage. My first spouse was a religious fanat-ic and along with her group of believers ran roughshod over our marriage and my life. The occupied with her support my home and my family and we were doomed. Though a Christian from birth, after two years of marriage I was now a member of the church of the devil openly and also in regard to my children. She became the addict and years later when I was practicing the amends for my part (rage and anger) of this program I was told that they came to understand that they destroyed many families because of their actions and beliefs.
I was very leery of attending Al-Anon at this other church and then HP being who HP is wanted to help me to keep coming back when in an early meeting it was said, "We are not a religion, however if you practice this program religiously...you will come to understand". I knew what was being said and intended...live this program daily, walk and practice these steps constantly, accept a power greater than your self intimately and constantly and do not let anyone (alcoholic) or thing (alcoholism or drug addiction) take you from it.
That is what I do constantly, daily, and many people ask what church I attend and such and I don't answer or discuss religion. "Just watch the walk" i act. There have been so many changes in and to my life as I do this program religiously. ((((hugs))))
mandymott - I can't relate to your position as I was exposed to religion and related teachings before I could walk or talk. I have been in the rooms of 12 step recovery for more than 30 years, and have seen/known many atheists who found success. I can't explain how as it's not my story to tell but I do know it's possible and I've been able to witness it. If I could have found another 'way' to get where I am today, I might have taken it - I am all about fast gratification/success especially when I am in pain. Yet, nothing else I tried helped restore me to sanity like Al-Anon did. Keep coming back!
Mandy I understand as there have been atheist in the program who have taught me much even about God (god) and no God/god. I am a theologian and know the stories of many peoples gods. I have arrived at god for me which reduced my dependence on luck, superstition, and more. I have had events occur in my life where more learned and professional men and women have told me "there is something going on here we just don't understand" and they didn't mention god/God, Higher Power or else and yet they perfectly described what was happening in my life. These events are usual to me now and were not when I first arrived at Al-Anon and they focused on parts of my personality and life which were not what the event was about yet came to solution for me and for others.
My experience today regarding a Higher Power was partially brought about by an Al-Anon fellow who was a Blackfoot Indian. I held his hand as he closed my home group meeting as a Blackfoot indian and I was able to understand and fully accept that he was then speaking to his "creator father...or Creator Father". I then have done some study and research about the ancient peoples and their connection with life and came to the understanding that they knew and knew that they knew how this even I call my life came about and continues.
I no longer identify my self as catholic. I am a Hawaiian National born and raised and reconnected to the culture of my birth thoroughly connected by spirit, each others spirits and the spirits of all other living things such as the Bird of Paradise in my Avatar.
Mahalo for your share. ((((hugs))))
MandyMott Although I had a religious upbringing, I had lost my spirituality. However, through Alanon, I have connected to a spiritual awareness that is supportive. Nature... a life-force .... ? Although it may be in a very different manner, I don't know that having spirituality is necessarily in conflict with being an atheist.
Good topic Jerry,
When we begin to talk about topics in an adult way- it is a good sign of healthy growth.
I used to feel for members who were not believers- especially as they navigated the steps. The slogan "Let go and let God" for example. And the first word in the serenity prayer. [At one time, in my mind I changed the first word to 'please'.]
I don't suppose I would get to the end of the topic is I constantly sought perfection. I will and should still pursue hopes and dreams. I think idealism is healthy, so long as I apply the serenity prayer. [And should I change the word "prayer" to 'petition'. ???]
I found hypocrisy in my family and community. I sometimes found it in groups. But until I sought it in myself was I able to change it. Let it begin with me.
thanks y'all
D.
I have always believed this to be true.
I did also Bo and up until I got some grace in my early home group that said "and if we work it religiously" which for me came to mean 24/7 day in and day out which is what I still do now 39 years later. Al-Anon is the only way I can live my life today and my cultural spirits gather around me and join in. ((((hugs))))
I think what i love about this program is there is experience 'only .. we learn by experience only; ours an others. i was told early on to keep an open mind & heart an not to judge good bad right wrong meaning there is no one right; there is experience only. Today I can say to the athiests, according to 'their life experiences, there is no God, according to 'my life experiences, there is. The same with according to other's experience it may not be by the grace of God, according to my life experience it is but for the grace of god. We're we to swap experiences, it would stand to reason we would also swap beliefs. (an maybe who knows .. maybe that's possibly a key part to the real wisdom in learning the difference)
When it comes to hypocrisy and words matching actions; this is why i like step 1. we turn 'away from hypocrisy (inside ourselves) when we honestly and humbly admit our wrongs, our own words finally begin to match our actions. first step if we ever want to hit step 2 in any one area we move through.
I am still in the religion that scared me (by choice today) but i am also realizing very slowly it wasn't really fear of god that kept me stuck or sick there .. I believe this was more about fear of the people and the confused messages. (distorted thinking & misunderstandings of the people (effected by alcoholism ?) I never had a power greater than 'them .. i am grateful for a little better understanding at least today than just the 'one 'i used to have (which wasn't really understanding for me at all as it 'never brought compassion). The aa book reads: Catholics will be 'become 'better Catholics (then the ones they were without recovery) i believe this happens (as the hearts and minds begin to open) (begin to 'question themselves or learn questioning anything is ok and to begin to 'think about things rather than merely obsess (stay stuck on the fear of judgment) as i learned for 'years) i respect your own beliefs again slowly becoming aware deeper if i had walked in 'your shoes i would have the 'same. In a sense for me it was like being in church without a higher power period; I just could not see past the people (too many blocks (too much anger and fear inside me). Like anywhere today, I would never make it (and didn't) without a program. Too many effects I'm powerless over without. i am definitely still moving through that stuck fear but realizing it is beginning to move a little more with me as i move. clarifying for me too that nowhere in this am i sharing i understand everything half laugh .. i am very much merely moving toward understanding for me however slow.
Great share as usual, Jerry .. I appreciate how you learned to work this program religiously (found a way that works for 'you) as well as one that will help the program work for others ..
at the risk of this being very long going to repost the promises in here and hope that's ok.
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Saturday 17th of February 2018 10:42:14 AM
"If you keep and open mind you will find help" no offense can be taken with that principle Me 2 too especially by me. It is my sole intention, my spirit, to work this program as it was brought to me by so many others and supported with me that I live it in a way that it puts me right with my HP and others. (((((hugs)))))