I have been with my ABF (who's been in recovery for 15 years) for 2 1/2 years. We live an hour and 15 minutes apart from each other, I am divorced with three teenage children. He has been single for 20 years, and very much stuck in his daily routine. On the surface the relationship has been really great, until I started asking for some tweaks in his routine which would allow us to spend more time together. I feel that I am always compromising not him. I spent some time looking yesterday for an Al-Anon meeting that will fit into my crazy schedule because I think I need some help.
Yesterday my ABF shared that the thought tweaking of his routine elicits fear and would create concerns about his sobriety. (by that I mean not that he would pick up a drink, but his inability to attend his meetings/work the steps etc. ... I replied if you were ever to move in, it doesn't mean that he would lose his support system, he could still attend those meetings, and yet he has friends in my area as well. What would change most definitely is his typical routine.) I'm left feeling that he may not be willing to change - to do the small things that I am asking to save this relationship.
Thoughts? Do I have to accept his routine in order to remain in the relationship? Am I crazy to ask him to sleep over my house on a Sunday night? New scenarios elicit fear, thus his hesitation to try something new with me or meet my friends, for example. Am I expecting too much from him?
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2018
Im - welcome to MIP! So glad you found us and so glad that you shared. I would suggest attending a few Al-Anon meetings. It might help you better under the disease as well as what recovery is all about. As one in recovery on both sides, AA & Al-Anon, I would not give up my meetings as I have to treat this disease and meetings are one element of my treatment. I've been sober for 30 years and it's been that way because I place my recovery and sobriety above everything else in my life - including family, friends, etc.
What we learn in Al-Anon is that unconditional love is really allowing others the space to be who they need to be - good and bad. We impose boundaries for our own sanity, and we respect boundaries in others. We learn how to rely on self and a spiritual journey rather than people, places and things - which we are powerless over. And lastly, we do learn how to have realistic expectations, and so much more. Many of us have been affected by this disease in ways that are unknown until we start taking a look at ourselves and learning how to keep our focus where it should be - our own well-being.
Alcoholism is a chronic disease, and it is cunning, baffling and powerful. For those who are able to get sober and stay sober, routines and support are part of the treatment. Asking an alcoholic to give up a meeting (to an A) is like asking a diabetic to go without insulin. I'm not saying I never make exceptions - but when I change up my schedule, it's usually for something equally or more important to/for me or my recovery.
Keep coming back - you are not alone!!
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Thank you for your reply, but just for clarity I have never asked my ABF to miss a meeting. I know how important they are to him and it is his support network. I even had suggested his re-connecting with meetings in my area too, since he has friends here as well, perhaps as an option. He has yet to do so
My struggle is more his need for rigidity/control/routine leaves little flexibility for my needs. Do I need to forgo my needs so as to stay in this relationship? For example, As our relationship has evolved I've asked to do different outside activities that he's never done, meet my friends, and maybe wake up 15 minutes early when I sleep over his house on a workday so we can spend a few moments together. Those examples bring up feelings of fear for him this little desire to do any of them.
Tude said
Feb 6, 2018
Hi Im.
I'm so glad you found MIP. I second what Iamhere shared. I hope you do try some meetings. You'll learn the areas of boundaries, and also one thing I got from your post.......that alanon will help with......is to not feel rejection over your ABF's recovery and his own boundaries.
Keep coming back!
Skorpi said
Feb 6, 2018
Hi Im, welcome to MIP!
I hope that you will be able to find a local face-to-face AlAnon meeting, it sounds like you already have the schedule.
It sounds to me from your post that you might be ready to move to "the next step," whatever that may be, and that your ABF might not be ready for that yet.
One thing I have learned in AlAnon is that it is important for me to make my own decisions and to let my AW make her own decisions. I was telling a story at a meeting that got a lot of laughs, so I'll share it here as well. The meeting topic was about finding "rock bottom." Someone shared that rock bottom is when an addict decides to stop digging. That made me smile. someone else said that they were talking to someone at the gym who was trying to give their alcoholic family member a "soft landing" at rock bottom, but we all knew that there was no pillow-top mattress down there. I said "A soft landing!!! Most days I want to give her a push, so she can move on with recovery already!" Of course, I don't, because it wouldn't do any good. She needs the dignity to make her own decisions, and I respect her enough to let her make them, regardless of what I might think of them.
My AW has been sober (I would say mostly sober, but that isn't my business) for nearly three years now. She is white knuckling it, sobriety without program, not drinking without AA or any other kind of support. I really wish she'd admit she needs a support system, find an AA group that she likes, and work the steps. But, apparently, despite her decision not to drink, she hasn't found the "rock bottom" that would lead her to connecting with a community and finding support. Now, I know because of my past experience that me saying anything is not going to inspire her to find support. I cannot declare for her where her rock bottom is located. It seems to me that she's still down there, digging away. Maybe her shovel is a bit smaller now than it was when she was actively drinking, I'm not sure.
Anyway, no one can tell you whether it is time to move on, or whether you should be patient. You will know when you are ready to make a decision. In my relationship, my expectations have gotten me into a lot of trouble. In AlAnon, I have learned to decide what is and is not acceptable to me, and then to act accordingly. I have also learned to accept things as they are, and not expect them to change until I see them changing. I tend to live by the slogan "If you are not sure, don't" - waiting until I am sure that I know what I want, keeping the focus on myself and my needs, and speaking about what I want, need, and am doing has helped me to find balance and contentment.
Keep coming back, I'm happy you stopped by!
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Yes I need to attend a face-to-face Al-Anon meeting! I was hoping to have found one before work this morning but it looks like I can do back to back meetings on Friday morning. Is that OK?
So what I am getting from these posts is my need to accept the boundaries that he's putting up right now. IF he's going to make any changes/tweaks to his schedule, it has to be motivated by him. It's his personal struggle and has little to do with me or how he values our relationship/feels about me. And for me, I need to have a clear understanding as to what is sufficient change/tweaks/compromises and what's not.
maryjane said
Feb 6, 2018
Thoughts? Do I have to accept his routine in order to remain in the relationship?
-----------------------------------------------------
Hi IM, This was your question..... in a word "yes". You can also say does he have to respect you and your routines? Also "yes". Are you allowed to change your mind? Of course! AlAnon allows us to do and feel and be what is best for us. It tells us to say what we mean, mean what we say and try not to say it mean. So, you can ask him to change up his routines, but he has the right to say no. And you have the responsibility to decide if that is what you want in your life. You have that choice.
None of us can change the fact that alcoholism is a disease that has to be managed by the person who has the disease. He may be saying "no" to you because he is truly fearful of his disease and his management of it, or it may be a personality disorder that is layered on top of his alcoholism. We don't know. You don't know. Maybe he doesn't even know. So we tell you to make your decisions to be in your own best interests. We go to AlAnon meetings to manage our own feelings of guilt or regret or fear or anger or confusion or anxiety.... and we listen to other speakers at the meetings to learn how they handled similar situations.
Your last response makes me think you are getting a good idea of what is going on.
Take care of yourself.
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
MaryJane... thank you for your reply⦠Gives me a lot to think about
SerenityRUS said
Feb 6, 2018
Im, Welcome and I encourage you to listen to both recovering AA members as well as Alanon speakers on YouTube Recovery channel. It might give you some insight as to some of the challenges and rewards that are on both sides of that coin.
While it might not seem that you are asking a lot of him .. he's telling you what he can give you and I find my mistake with my XAH is that I didn't listen to what he was saying to me. If I had believed him the first time I probably would have left before I did .. not saying you need to leave however in all fairness my XAH was very clear with what he wanted and didn't want. I just didn't listen. So in alanon it has helped me a great deal to listen to what was going on.
Hugs S :)
PS - I hope you will keep coming back. :)
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2018
Im - in a nutshell....Yes. I believe one thing I learned about me in Al-Anon is that how I define a variety of things - love, relationship, values, respect, etc. is vastly different than how others define the same terms. Being affected by this disease had my views on some of these a bit warped or over-zealous. I had to learn the difference between my wants vs. my needs and then also learn how to state my needs different than my wants and then lastly how to negotiate so that it's win/win.
Just a silly example but my AH and I both love most professional/collegiate sports! However, we do not watch together. Why? He dislikes most of the announcers and I tend to scream at the TV and the officials. In summary, we annoy each other endlessly when we try to watch together!!! So - we both are watching the same event but from different TVs, in different rooms on different floors! And - it works well....when there is a good/special play, one of us pauses and goes to the other to talk about it, analyze it, etc. This most likely sounds/appears to be really, really strange - yet it works for us.
In a relationship, there will always be give/take. If one (either one) changes their life to better want another, resentment WILL come. Allowing others the grace, space and dignity to exist in the relationship how best they can is one of the greatest gifts ever!
And - you are absolutely fine going to multiple meetings in a day!!! It is in meetings that I first heard - QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally - and what this meant to/for me is that when another is practicing self-care, no matter how silly I think it is or selfish, it's really not about me at all....(((Hugs)))
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Serenity - your post of "While it might not seem that you are asking a lot of him .. he's telling you what he can give you" was mind blowing. Ok, so while in one breathe he's saying he's not sure he would ever relocate to my area in fear that his support network/sobriety he would be affected. So, when I asked then why are we still together, he says because he cares about me and loves having me in his life. It seems all a personal struggle for him.⦠So I guess I need to decide do I go along for the ride, and be patient, or do I recognize that he may never be who I want (or need) him to be. .... overwhelming question for sure
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Iamhere- your post of "I had to learn the difference between my wants vs. my needs and then also learn how to state my needs different than my wants and then lastly how to negotiate so that it's win/win." I think that's where I am at. What can I accept re his boundaries and what do I NEED tweaked as "wants" may be unobtainable. Any tips on how you successfully processed all that?
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2018
Im - all of my tools of today came from working the Al-Anon recovery! There is tons of hope and help in Al-Anon and that's where I found others who were affected by the disease (both active and with recovery challenges/needs) who supported me. It's truly been life-changing as I learned how I often reacted instead of responded to 'life' and developed new tools through working the program, steps, etc. to respond instead of react.
You already have the gift of inquiry - an open mind! That's a great start. Just keep doing what you're doing - examining what you feel, throwing it 'out' and getting feedback. I was really amazed at how I viewed life and others until I fully accepted that I am powerless over so many things, but no so with self. Today, I am able to accept my own imperfections as well as those in others. It's been an amazing journey and will strengthen you if you work it!
(((Hugs)))
SerenityRUS said
Feb 6, 2018
I come back to what I have shared in the past .. can you love him right where he is without the need to change him. I mean today, tomorrow, 5 years from now .. are you willing to understand the disease of alcoholism to know there are no guarantee's about anything. Each day is a blessing and each day is a miracle in recovery.
While we are a one day at a time program here with AA and Alanon (as well as other 12 step programs), I was told by an Addiction counselor .. it's ok to dream and to have future goals, needs and so on with in that relationship. That's where communication is key. Listening, compromising, acceptance and so on which is never all done by one person. It is a collective movement between couples in a healthy give/take relationship.
Because it's a one day at a time program .. no one needs to eat an elephant in one bite. Meaning .. nothing has to be decided today. That's why meetings, sponsorship, reading, sharing is so important .. I might not have looked at specific situations the same way as someone else and I remain teachable even if I grouse from time to time about it .. lol. I kick a rock and move on.
Knowing myself helps me make good solid choices and gets me knowing me and what my wants vs needs are within a relationship and just as an individual.
Hugs S :)
maryjane said
Feb 6, 2018
So I guess I need to decide do I go along for the ride, and be patient, or do I recognize that he may never be who I want (or need) him to be -------------------------------------------------- Hi IM, You wrote the above...... It doesn't have to be either/or, but it can be one or the other. In my own case I decided to go along for the ride and I was patient (and a whole lot more reasons that I discovered about me in AlAnon)...... and I realized finally that he never was what I wanted or needed but by that time we had been married 47 years. I will not say it was wasted. I was unhappy for lots of years. I finally learned a lot about myself in AlAnon and I learned I didn't need to be needed and whatever I wanted or he wanted could be changed next week.... and that was when I got happy again.... no matter what he was doing. We did live independent lives in the same home. Figure out what YOU want. Take care of yourself.
-- Edited by maryjane on Tuesday 6th of February 2018 02:23:21 PM
Mattie said
Feb 6, 2018
I always think of that saying, "When someone tells you who he is, believe him." So far what you know is that he has a certain rigidity of routine, which doesn't fit in well with the way you were hoping things would go. Now, he may be rigid because he is holding on tight to sobriety and that's the way it has to be. Or he may be rigid because he's a rigid person and so his sobriety is as rigid as all his other requirements for living. The thing is that it doesn't matter which it is. It simply doesn't mesh well with the flexibility that would make things easier for you.
My own A also had a lot of rigidity, and in his case that was bound up with being self-focused to the extent that other people had to conform or get out. He had a lot of great qualities too, and I'm just describing that one in the way I am because ultimately it did come down to "My way or the highway." In a way the great qualities were a handicap, because they made me more willing to try to bend myself into various shapes to make it work. I started bending more and more and more until I had lost sight of what was really acceptable for a relationship.
The fact is that not all great people are great to be in a relationship with. These more rigid people tend to end up with people-pleasers, because they (we) are the ones who will stick around and try to do the changing. I think now that an ability to be flexible is necessary for a relationship. There are so many things that are unchangeable about everyone, that being flexible about some stuff is necessary. Also I notice that your A, like mine, had some rigidity over how available he was. Living apart was also perfect for my A because he didn't have to get along with another person except at chosen times. But when push came to shove, his routines and all his intractable needs came before being with me. It was a long experience of feeling like I didn't really matter. Can't say I would recommend that experience. Take good care of yourself.
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Mattie- wow! Are you sure you're not in my head right now. I felt like your words written are my own.... oh boy. Can't agree more.
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
Can I ask one more question to help me understand my ABF's brain?
There are moments where he can compromise and has made some changes. What motivates him to do that in some areas, but not in others? Is it more likely they are areas that he feels comfortable with/ he's proposing? Whereas my suggestions/requests are uncharted territory?
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2018
Im - one can never know the thoughts of another - so not sure. Speaking from my own experience, strength and hope, I am a structured person and have more flexibility some days than others. It's also based on my spiritual condition. I just know that I have to be true to me, and allow others to be true to them.
I have seen many folks stay sober in AA. I have seen many folks relapse in AA - at 1 month to 20+ years. What I hear most often is that the SLIP is best defined as Sobriety Lost It's Priority. Those dedicated to a sober, spiritual life will put that first - in front of a wife, child, girlfriend, etc. as we know that SLIP can mean loss of everything - including life.
I will say in my own marriage, I am the rigid one. I've always been so. My husband is the opposite. I know I have driven him crazy for years!!! But I also know that we are/were both committed to the marriage in a manner that we've grown to accept what's in the other instead of trying/desiring to change it. (((Hugs)))
Im said
Feb 6, 2018
A SLIP in his mind can be any change of his routine then? Right?
From a non A, I had been thinking that my requests - for example - to sleep at my house on a work night, initiate/want to see me on my birthday (needing to change up his routine to do so) or meet my friends - had nothing to do with alcohol thus nor jeopardy of sobriety, so what's the issue? (I had thought a SLIP would be me putting him in a situation where there is alcohol present.) I couldn't understand the struggle he was having and I took personal.
I've got some really great feedback hear from everybody here today. Thank you so much it's been invaluable. ðð
bud said
Feb 6, 2018
In my experience, when a loved one has this problem and isn't working a strong recovery program, the normal compromise give and take goes out the window. Expectations are resentments waiting to blossom. In my experience, if someone feels they have over compromised, this weakens the relationship. Outcomes in each situation is different, keep coming back to let Alanon help you know what works best for you.
Alanon helps with perspectives and boundaries to place the focus on yourself and your peace of mind.
Iamhere said
Feb 6, 2018
Recovery is larger than stopping the behavior - for an A, it's drinking/use of mind altering substances. For us, Al-Anon members, it's obsessing about what the A is/is not doing and why. I can't think of any way to know why he is doing what he's doing and that's where Al-Anon is helpful. We learn to focus on self and take care of self. Meetings are one part of typical recovery actions. There is much more - sponsorship, literature, step work, etc. So - sobriety loosing it's priority - is larger than meetings for most.
Im said
Feb 7, 2018
I think the idea of self care, while navigating through this relationship, is something that I need very much. I've been neglecting my needs and it's created a loss of self in a relationship. That's not OK for meâ¦I've compromised consistently and have felt it was not balanced on the part of my ABF. I am very much looking forward to attending my back to back meetings on Friday.
Im said
Feb 7, 2018
I think the idea of self care, while navigating through this relationship, is something that I need very much. I've been neglecting my needs and it's created a loss of self in this relationship. That's not OK for meâ¦I've compromised consistently and have felt the compromising was not balanced on the part of my ABF. I am very much looking forward to attending my back to back meetings on Friday.
jtpickle said
Feb 7, 2018
SerenityRUS wrote:
While we are a one day at a time program here with AA and Alanon (as well as other 12 step programs), I was told by an Addiction counselor .. it's ok to dream and to have future goals, needs and so on with in that relationship. That's where communication is key. Listening, compromising, acceptance and so on which is never all done by one person. It is a collective movement between couples in a healthy give/take relationship.
Thank you Serenity as I needed to hear this. I have a hard time balancing between the "one day at a time" and making goals and plans. For example, I make lists: lists of what I need to do today, tomorrow, next month and so on. I have goals of what I need and want to do. Coming into AlAnon has been challenging for me because I "hear" only 'one day at a time' which is hard to process as a goal driven person. The hard part is waiting and having patience for the the last part of your quote - "couples in a healthy give/take relationship". I'm not sure when we will get to healthy again; I now am not sure what healthy is. But I'll take it one day at a time, keep working the program and see what happens. I'm just happy to hear that I can still operate with goals within the framework of Al-Anon.
Iamhere said
Feb 7, 2018
Im - good for you! Keep us posted on how the meetings go and try to keep it simple....one day at a time!
jtpickle - I too am a planner and a goal gal. What I heard that helped me greatly was it's fine to make plans - just don't assume the outcome is 'known'. Same with hopes and dreams!
(((Hugs))) to all - this has been a great post/shares.
Im said
Feb 8, 2018
The relationship with my ABF has been an emotional roller coaster the last two weeks⦠I cannot wait until Friday to attend my first Al-Anon. I wish it was today.... So while I am floating/lost at sea as to the status of my relationship with my ABF, al-Anon will encourage me towards the self-care during this uncertain journey with my ABF. Correct? Because my heart and brain go to question "Huh? What just happened? I thought we were committed to trying even do to the distance, and now we're at a place where you're pushing me away?" And the rational side of me, as a non-A, wants to talk and UNDERSTAND. He wants to think.
So⦠so at this time I need to focus less on what just happened or why and think about what I need and self-care. Correct? I am so confused, angry and sad.
My heart is breaking. I am being pulled around like a puppet. Yet I keep coming back to this man who can't decide whether he wants me in his life or not. What am I doing? Ughhhh. This really sucks.
Doingmybest said
Feb 8, 2018
You, my friend are simply being affected by the disease of alcoholism. Al-Anon will help you. I can give no relationship advice because, even after 22 years of marriage, I still screw my relationship up pretty often...and so does he. Its a daily thing for everyone, but even more difficult when you add in alcoholism to the mix.
My only true and honest suggestion is to find some CAL (Conference Approved Literature) and simply read. It will help a great deal before your meeting and any time you need insight into your own feelings.
I realize this sounds simplistic and gives no real advice, but please take even 30 minutes to read a true alanon book of your choice and see how you feel after. You do not have to decide anything today in your relationship. Things will work out as they are meant to, if you will allow them to.
I wish you complete happiness and pray you find the inner peace you are finding so difficult to harness at this difficult juncture.
Im said
Feb 8, 2018
Doingmybest, ð»ðððð ð»ðððthanks. So THIS is the disease, huh? I've seen these signs throughout our relationship and initially took them personally. Now I understand (via THIS post) they are all his inner struggles and his issues. .... As a non-A, I worry that what he's created in his head (and thinking/obsessing/worrying about) is not an accurate dipiction of what I said, what the issue is, etc. Yet he won't talk w me about it, he'll chat w his AA's. I'm working on getting less hurt that he talks to others about his struggles in our relationship instead of me. No one knows what I think/feel/want except me. I guess I hoped I could clarify whatever he is struggling w. But I can't, right? .... So how do I know what we CAN talk about and what is a symptom of the disease? Sounds like he takes the lead on all of this???
I'm going to my library at lunch to see what we have avail. Thanks for the tip about getting some reading information
SerenityRUS said
Feb 8, 2018
IM,
I have attended open AA meetings and trust me when I say it's no different than a face to face alanon meeting .. except real new comers .. you bring your ESH to the tables and save the mess for your sponsor .. the same is true with AA .. when the meetings I have gone to I have not heard the dump of my sig other does this and that .. they actually are more focused on themselves.
I really encourage you to stop trying to figure out what is diseased thinking and what is not .. the fact is my XAH would obsess over his next feel good (this was a number of things) I would in turn obsess over him .. we did this crazy dance of him hiding it and me figuring him out .. LOL .. it's a whole lot of wasted energy .. that is not self care. Self care is allowing things to unfold the way they are going to unfold without the necessity of a crystal ball .. mine is cracked and I still go there .. lol .. sometimes I'm right .. which is unfortunate only because some I wish I was not about some of this stuff .. LOL. UGH. it's exhausting as I mentioned before.
The other thing I discovered in alanon is I was not all lily white in my relationship .. there were certain things that because of my past worked for me that were honestly outdated behaviors .. some I still have .. however THAT'S what I needed to work on in Alanon. My XAH is going to do what he's going to do .. some of it I can protect myself through legal means and some are things I can't control that drives me crazy because he's just an ass. I do not like him and anyone who has been on the boards will testify I have no problem saying that .. it just is what it is.
The behaviors I brought to the relationship .. my picker is faulty from time to time .. lol .. aka out of order .. I picked men who were/are unemotionally available to ME. I found out because I am not always emotionally available in my primary relationships .. that means I have to take emotional risks and I found out I don't like those because it means I might get hurt. I am still learning how to just be a good friend. I also can be controlling .. that was a shock because I didn't know that at the time I came into alanon .. LOL. I have gotten better except when things don't go my way or the way I think they should .. sigh .. I am a work in progress. I am stubborn beyond belief and hard headed sometimes I don't like to remain teachable. Which translates to I am always right .. LOL .. even when I'm not .. I'm right. I can give about another 10 things off the top of my head .. the reality is these are also assets for me as well .. I am loyal to a fault. I don't give up. I see the positive in situations. I am also very accepting of others because I have learned life is so much better with a unique variety of experiences. Again .. I can give another 10 things that are good about me too off the top of my head. These are all things I have learned about IN alanon.
Keep coming back and I think you will find out that you are not alone.
Hugs S :)
tiredtonite said
Feb 8, 2018
Hi Im,
Welcome to MIP. None of us can really know the motivations of other people's words or actions. All we can do is accept others right to make the choices that are best for them. Your recovering abf is clear about what he willing to offer to this relationship. The Alanon program suggests that we keep with our own recovery, make the choices that our best for ourselves and respect the right of alcoholics in our lives to do the same. Trying to figure out another person's choices is futile. He seems comfortable with the relationship as it is. This may be as far as he is either willing to go or capable of going. Does it really matter which it is? The result is the same. He isn't giving you what you want. So what does this really leave a person with as a recovering Alanon? For me, it comes down to asking myself if I am willing to accept a relationship as it is without expectation of more. In the past, I would think that I could somehow change another person's mind with time. Sometimes it worked temporarily but eventually those relationships fell apart because if I gave someone an ultimatum, backed them into a corner, they might agree because I was the stronger of the two of us (if they had trouble confronting people) but what did I really get? I got a person who wasn't ready but maybe a people pleaser uncomfortable with disappointing others who went along because I forced the issue. Alanon has taught me to meet people where they are in life because I can't expect that same kindness and respect if I'm unwilling to give it. A question since Alanon, particularly with the alcoholics in my life is whether having them in my life is more important than having my expectations of them met. If my answer is that having my expectations of them met is more important, for me personally... and how I work my program, this is clear indication that my ego is in the way. I'm edging God out and dismissing an entire person on the basis of not getting my own way.
I can look for satisfying relationships with other people whose way of living one day at a time may be more closely aligned with my own. But I still see a lot of value in keeping close others who have been and continue to be good to me. I see kindness as a free will offering from another and choose not to take it lightly. I'm grateful when failed romantic relationships can continue as friendships. They don't always turn out that way but when they do it's a gift from my higher power.
Thank you for sharing. I hope this works out in a way that is good for both of you. He sounds like you both care about the relationship. (((hugs))) TT
Im said
Feb 8, 2018
As previously stated, thank you everyone for taking the time to message me. It's been an overwhelming couple of days and I truly appreciate everyone's suggestions. Can't begin to tell you how many times I've reread posts to use as my affirmations and to calm my brain. Off to my first al-anon meeting in the morning and doing a second back to back. I'll check in and let you all know what I think! ð Hugs to all!
Hello, I am very new here
I have been with my ABF (who's been in recovery for 15 years) for 2 1/2 years. We live an hour and 15 minutes apart from each other, I am divorced with three teenage children. He has been single for 20 years, and very much stuck in his daily routine. On the surface the relationship has been really great, until I started asking for some tweaks in his routine which would allow us to spend more time together. I feel that I am always compromising not him. I spent some time looking yesterday for an Al-Anon meeting that will fit into my crazy schedule because I think I need some help.
Yesterday my ABF shared that the thought tweaking of his routine elicits fear and would create concerns about his sobriety. (by that I mean not that he would pick up a drink, but his inability to attend his meetings/work the steps etc. ... I replied if you were ever to move in, it doesn't mean that he would lose his support system, he could still attend those meetings, and yet he has friends in my area as well. What would change most definitely is his typical routine.) I'm left feeling that he may not be willing to change - to do the small things that I am asking to save this relationship.
Thoughts? Do I have to accept his routine in order to remain in the relationship? Am I crazy to ask him to sleep over my house on a Sunday night? New scenarios elicit fear, thus his hesitation to try something new with me or meet my friends, for example. Am I expecting too much from him?
What we learn in Al-Anon is that unconditional love is really allowing others the space to be who they need to be - good and bad. We impose boundaries for our own sanity, and we respect boundaries in others. We learn how to rely on self and a spiritual journey rather than people, places and things - which we are powerless over. And lastly, we do learn how to have realistic expectations, and so much more. Many of us have been affected by this disease in ways that are unknown until we start taking a look at ourselves and learning how to keep our focus where it should be - our own well-being.
Alcoholism is a chronic disease, and it is cunning, baffling and powerful. For those who are able to get sober and stay sober, routines and support are part of the treatment. Asking an alcoholic to give up a meeting (to an A) is like asking a diabetic to go without insulin. I'm not saying I never make exceptions - but when I change up my schedule, it's usually for something equally or more important to/for me or my recovery.
Keep coming back - you are not alone!!
I'm so glad you found MIP. I second what Iamhere shared. I hope you do try some meetings. You'll learn the areas of boundaries, and also one thing I got from your post.......that alanon will help with......is to not feel rejection over your ABF's recovery and his own boundaries.
Keep coming back!
I hope that you will be able to find a local face-to-face AlAnon meeting, it sounds like you already have the schedule.
It sounds to me from your post that you might be ready to move to "the next step," whatever that may be, and that your ABF might not be ready for that yet.
One thing I have learned in AlAnon is that it is important for me to make my own decisions and to let my AW make her own decisions. I was telling a story at a meeting that got a lot of laughs, so I'll share it here as well. The meeting topic was about finding "rock bottom." Someone shared that rock bottom is when an addict decides to stop digging. That made me smile. someone else said that they were talking to someone at the gym who was trying to give their alcoholic family member a "soft landing" at rock bottom, but we all knew that there was no pillow-top mattress down there. I said "A soft landing!!! Most days I want to give her a push, so she can move on with recovery already!" Of course, I don't, because it wouldn't do any good. She needs the dignity to make her own decisions, and I respect her enough to let her make them, regardless of what I might think of them.
My AW has been sober (I would say mostly sober, but that isn't my business) for nearly three years now. She is white knuckling it, sobriety without program, not drinking without AA or any other kind of support. I really wish she'd admit she needs a support system, find an AA group that she likes, and work the steps. But, apparently, despite her decision not to drink, she hasn't found the "rock bottom" that would lead her to connecting with a community and finding support. Now, I know because of my past experience that me saying anything is not going to inspire her to find support. I cannot declare for her where her rock bottom is located. It seems to me that she's still down there, digging away. Maybe her shovel is a bit smaller now than it was when she was actively drinking, I'm not sure.
Anyway, no one can tell you whether it is time to move on, or whether you should be patient. You will know when you are ready to make a decision. In my relationship, my expectations have gotten me into a lot of trouble. In AlAnon, I have learned to decide what is and is not acceptable to me, and then to act accordingly. I have also learned to accept things as they are, and not expect them to change until I see them changing. I tend to live by the slogan "If you are not sure, don't" - waiting until I am sure that I know what I want, keeping the focus on myself and my needs, and speaking about what I want, need, and am doing has helped me to find balance and contentment.
Keep coming back, I'm happy you stopped by!
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Hi IM, This was your question..... in a word "yes". You can also say does he have to respect you and your routines? Also "yes". Are you allowed to change your mind? Of course! AlAnon allows us to do and feel and be what is best for us. It tells us to say what we mean, mean what we say and try not to say it mean. So, you can ask him to change up his routines, but he has the right to say no. And you have the responsibility to decide if that is what you want in your life. You have that choice.
None of us can change the fact that alcoholism is a disease that has to be managed by the person who has the disease. He may be saying "no" to you because he is truly fearful of his disease and his management of it, or it may be a personality disorder that is layered on top of his alcoholism. We don't know. You don't know. Maybe he doesn't even know. So we tell you to make your decisions to be in your own best interests. We go to AlAnon meetings to manage our own feelings of guilt or regret or fear or anger or confusion or anxiety.... and we listen to other speakers at the meetings to learn how they handled similar situations.
Your last response makes me think you are getting a good idea of what is going on.
Take care of yourself.
While it might not seem that you are asking a lot of him .. he's telling you what he can give you and I find my mistake with my XAH is that I didn't listen to what he was saying to me. If I had believed him the first time I probably would have left before I did .. not saying you need to leave however in all fairness my XAH was very clear with what he wanted and didn't want. I just didn't listen. So in alanon it has helped me a great deal to listen to what was going on.
Hugs S :)
PS - I hope you will keep coming back. :)
Just a silly example but my AH and I both love most professional/collegiate sports! However, we do not watch together. Why? He dislikes most of the announcers and I tend to scream at the TV and the officials. In summary, we annoy each other endlessly when we try to watch together!!! So - we both are watching the same event but from different TVs, in different rooms on different floors! And - it works well....when there is a good/special play, one of us pauses and goes to the other to talk about it, analyze it, etc. This most likely sounds/appears to be really, really strange - yet it works for us.
In a relationship, there will always be give/take. If one (either one) changes their life to better want another, resentment WILL come. Allowing others the grace, space and dignity to exist in the relationship how best they can is one of the greatest gifts ever!
And - you are absolutely fine going to multiple meetings in a day!!! It is in meetings that I first heard - QTIP - Quit Taking It Personally - and what this meant to/for me is that when another is practicing self-care, no matter how silly I think it is or selfish, it's really not about me at all....(((Hugs)))
You already have the gift of inquiry - an open mind! That's a great start. Just keep doing what you're doing - examining what you feel, throwing it 'out' and getting feedback. I was really amazed at how I viewed life and others until I fully accepted that I am powerless over so many things, but no so with self. Today, I am able to accept my own imperfections as well as those in others. It's been an amazing journey and will strengthen you if you work it!
(((Hugs)))
While we are a one day at a time program here with AA and Alanon (as well as other 12 step programs), I was told by an Addiction counselor .. it's ok to dream and to have future goals, needs and so on with in that relationship. That's where communication is key. Listening, compromising, acceptance and so on which is never all done by one person. It is a collective movement between couples in a healthy give/take relationship.
Because it's a one day at a time program .. no one needs to eat an elephant in one bite. Meaning .. nothing has to be decided today. That's why meetings, sponsorship, reading, sharing is so important .. I might not have looked at specific situations the same way as someone else and I remain teachable even if I grouse from time to time about it .. lol. I kick a rock and move on.
Knowing myself helps me make good solid choices and gets me knowing me and what my wants vs needs are within a relationship and just as an individual.
Hugs S :)
So I guess I need to decide do I go along for the ride, and be patient, or do I recognize that he may never be who I want (or need) him to be
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Hi IM,
You wrote the above...... It doesn't have to be either/or, but it can be one or the other. In my own case I decided to go along for the ride and I was patient (and a whole lot more reasons that I discovered about me in AlAnon)...... and I realized finally that he never was what I wanted or needed but by that time we had been married 47 years. I will not say it was wasted. I was unhappy for lots of years. I finally learned a lot about myself in AlAnon and I learned I didn't need to be needed and whatever I wanted or he wanted could be changed next week.... and that was when I got happy again.... no matter what he was doing. We did live independent lives in the same home.
Figure out what YOU want.
Take care of yourself.
-- Edited by maryjane on Tuesday 6th of February 2018 02:23:21 PM
I always think of that saying, "When someone tells you who he is, believe him." So far what you know is that he has a certain rigidity of routine, which doesn't fit in well with the way you were hoping things would go. Now, he may be rigid because he is holding on tight to sobriety and that's the way it has to be. Or he may be rigid because he's a rigid person and so his sobriety is as rigid as all his other requirements for living. The thing is that it doesn't matter which it is. It simply doesn't mesh well with the flexibility that would make things easier for you.
My own A also had a lot of rigidity, and in his case that was bound up with being self-focused to the extent that other people had to conform or get out. He had a lot of great qualities too, and I'm just describing that one in the way I am because ultimately it did come down to "My way or the highway." In a way the great qualities were a handicap, because they made me more willing to try to bend myself into various shapes to make it work. I started bending more and more and more until I had lost sight of what was really acceptable for a relationship.
The fact is that not all great people are great to be in a relationship with. These more rigid people tend to end up with people-pleasers, because they (we) are the ones who will stick around and try to do the changing. I think now that an ability to be flexible is necessary for a relationship. There are so many things that are unchangeable about everyone, that being flexible about some stuff is necessary. Also I notice that your A, like mine, had some rigidity over how available he was. Living apart was also perfect for my A because he didn't have to get along with another person except at chosen times. But when push came to shove, his routines and all his intractable needs came before being with me. It was a long experience of feeling like I didn't really matter. Can't say I would recommend that experience. Take good care of yourself.
I have seen many folks stay sober in AA. I have seen many folks relapse in AA - at 1 month to 20+ years. What I hear most often is that the SLIP is best defined as Sobriety Lost It's Priority. Those dedicated to a sober, spiritual life will put that first - in front of a wife, child, girlfriend, etc. as we know that SLIP can mean loss of everything - including life.
I will say in my own marriage, I am the rigid one. I've always been so. My husband is the opposite. I know I have driven him crazy for years!!! But I also know that we are/were both committed to the marriage in a manner that we've grown to accept what's in the other instead of trying/desiring to change it. (((Hugs)))
Alanon helps with perspectives and boundaries to place the focus on yourself and your peace of mind.
Thank you Serenity as I needed to hear this. I have a hard time balancing between the "one day at a time" and making goals and plans. For example, I make lists: lists of what I need to do today, tomorrow, next month and so on. I have goals of what I need and want to do. Coming into AlAnon has been challenging for me because I "hear" only 'one day at a time' which is hard to process as a goal driven person. The hard part is waiting and having patience for the the last part of your quote - "couples in a healthy give/take relationship". I'm not sure when we will get to healthy again; I now am not sure what healthy is.
But I'll take it one day at a time, keep working the program and see what happens. I'm just happy to hear that I can still operate with goals within the framework of Al-Anon.
jtpickle - I too am a planner and a goal gal. What I heard that helped me greatly was it's fine to make plans - just don't assume the outcome is 'known'. Same with hopes and dreams!
(((Hugs))) to all - this has been a great post/shares.
My only true and honest suggestion is to find some CAL (Conference Approved Literature) and simply read. It will help a great deal before your meeting and any time you need insight into your own feelings.
I realize this sounds simplistic and gives no real advice, but please take even 30 minutes to read a true alanon book of your choice and see how you feel after. You do not have to decide anything today in your relationship. Things will work out as they are meant to, if you will allow them to.
I wish you complete happiness and pray you find the inner peace you are finding so difficult to harness at this difficult juncture.
I have attended open AA meetings and trust me when I say it's no different than a face to face alanon meeting .. except real new comers .. you bring your ESH to the tables and save the mess for your sponsor .. the same is true with AA .. when the meetings I have gone to I have not heard the dump of my sig other does this and that .. they actually are more focused on themselves.
I really encourage you to stop trying to figure out what is diseased thinking and what is not .. the fact is my XAH would obsess over his next feel good (this was a number of things) I would in turn obsess over him .. we did this crazy dance of him hiding it and me figuring him out .. LOL .. it's a whole lot of wasted energy .. that is not self care. Self care is allowing things to unfold the way they are going to unfold without the necessity of a crystal ball .. mine is cracked and I still go there .. lol .. sometimes I'm right .. which is unfortunate only because some I wish I was not about some of this stuff .. LOL. UGH. it's exhausting as I mentioned before.
The other thing I discovered in alanon is I was not all lily white in my relationship .. there were certain things that because of my past worked for me that were honestly outdated behaviors .. some I still have .. however THAT'S what I needed to work on in Alanon. My XAH is going to do what he's going to do .. some of it I can protect myself through legal means and some are things I can't control that drives me crazy because he's just an ass. I do not like him and anyone who has been on the boards will testify I have no problem saying that .. it just is what it is.
The behaviors I brought to the relationship .. my picker is faulty from time to time .. lol .. aka out of order .. I picked men who were/are unemotionally available to ME. I found out because I am not always emotionally available in my primary relationships .. that means I have to take emotional risks and I found out I don't like those because it means I might get hurt. I am still learning how to just be a good friend. I also can be controlling .. that was a shock because I didn't know that at the time I came into alanon .. LOL. I have gotten better except when things don't go my way or the way I think they should .. sigh .. I am a work in progress. I am stubborn beyond belief and hard headed sometimes I don't like to remain teachable. Which translates to I am always right .. LOL .. even when I'm not .. I'm right. I can give about another 10 things off the top of my head .. the reality is these are also assets for me as well .. I am loyal to a fault. I don't give up. I see the positive in situations. I am also very accepting of others because I have learned life is so much better with a unique variety of experiences. Again .. I can give another 10 things that are good about me too off the top of my head. These are all things I have learned about IN alanon.
Keep coming back and I think you will find out that you are not alone.
Hugs S :)
Hi Im,
Welcome to MIP. None of us can really know the motivations of other people's words or actions. All we can do is accept others right to make the choices that are best for them. Your recovering abf is clear about what he willing to offer to this relationship. The Alanon program suggests that we keep with our own recovery, make the choices that our best for ourselves and respect the right of alcoholics in our lives to do the same. Trying to figure out another person's choices is futile. He seems comfortable with the relationship as it is. This may be as far as he is either willing to go or capable of going. Does it really matter which it is? The result is the same. He isn't giving you what you want. So what does this really leave a person with as a recovering Alanon? For me, it comes down to asking myself if I am willing to accept a relationship as it is without expectation of more. In the past, I would think that I could somehow change another person's mind with time. Sometimes it worked temporarily but eventually those relationships fell apart because if I gave someone an ultimatum, backed them into a corner, they might agree because I was the stronger of the two of us (if they had trouble confronting people) but what did I really get? I got a person who wasn't ready but maybe a people pleaser uncomfortable with disappointing others who went along because I forced the issue. Alanon has taught me to meet people where they are in life because I can't expect that same kindness and respect if I'm unwilling to give it. A question since Alanon, particularly with the alcoholics in my life is whether having them in my life is more important than having my expectations of them met. If my answer is that having my expectations of them met is more important, for me personally... and how I work my program, this is clear indication that my ego is in the way. I'm edging God out and dismissing an entire person on the basis of not getting my own way.
I can look for satisfying relationships with other people whose way of living one day at a time may be more closely aligned with my own. But I still see a lot of value in keeping close others who have been and continue to be good to me. I see kindness as a free will offering from another and choose not to take it lightly. I'm grateful when failed romantic relationships can continue as friendships. They don't always turn out that way but when they do it's a gift from my higher power.
Thank you for sharing. I hope this works out in a way that is good for both of you. He sounds like you both care about the relationship. (((hugs))) TT