My older adult sibling and qualifier leads an isolated life. At 65, she is 10 years divorced and the entire focus of her life is her out-of-town children who she rarely sees, but talks to almost daily. She does not seem to care at all about making friends. Its hard for me to not cascade into worrying about her. While I know intellectually that I did not cause her disease and that I am not responsible for her physical or mental health, I see her cognitive decline and know I will ultimately be her future caregiver. I try to love her and "meet her where she is" . But it's so hard b cause it is matter of health-- I beleive having a commnuity and connections to others would help extend her life. She has little self-love , few self-care tools and has forsaken herself and it's hard to watch. Al Anon has helped me detach with love and it brings serenity. But on some level I ask, don't I have a moral responsibility to suggest healthier lifestyles instead of watching her spiral?
Iamhere said
Sep 16, 2017
Welcome to MP Sorst - glad you found us and glad that you shared. By all means, suggestions aren't intrusion or enabling to me so long as I have no expectations and have checked my motives. I often have to ask my sponsor or trusted friends about these kinds of scenarios....I have learned that there is no shame in loving an alcoholic or having hope for the best possible life in spite of the disease.
When I am worried and struggle to shake it, I will often lean into my HP and then say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. Using I statements helps in my case - it reduces the risk of friction of me being accused of taking another's inventory. Being responsible to me suggests I don't leave important things unsaid, and that's esp. true with my qualifiers as I never know what tomorrow will bring. I do want them to know I love them, care about them and want the best for them.
Glad you are here! Please keep coming back - there is hope and help in recovery!
hotrod said
Sep 16, 2017
Hello Sorst, I am pleased that you are attending alanon and have found support in the rooms. I found that, detaching with love was the most responsible actions I could take when interacting with others, alcoholic or not . Being powerless over people places or things ,i found that it is very important to accept the fact that I can give people suggestions on how I think they can live but I cannot force solutions.
Letting go and letting God and not projecting to the future works well.
-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 18th of September 2017 09:38:01 AM
mamalioness said
Sep 16, 2017
Agree with Betty....detaching with love is the best thing...As she says "being powerless over people places or things" to me that one 7 word statement frees me from unnecessary worrying, trying to control, it "yanks" me back into reality....so what DO i have power over??? ME...MY life, MY actions, MY recovery....I think for me that is enough....I can be positive and encouraging and make loving suggestions , keeping it on "I/ME" statements so as to not sound controlling..... and also letting go to the universe eases up on the stress levels.....I work to keep my life simple...stay out of others business unless they ASK for my help/ESH, etc., and even then...#1, check my motives...#2, am I enabling them?? #3 is their request something they can do?? or are they really needing a boost?? #4, am i trying in any way to control them??? Checking my motives.....I can see no harm in your making positive suggestions, like what you would do in a given situation, but ultimately?? its her life and her path to walk.......I know how it feels to see a sibling "do themselves in" with bad choices/behavior, like my brother who is alcoholic...I hate to see him wrecking his body and mind with poison....so far he seems to be able to work, function, etc., but eventually its going to catch up with him...he is 63 so yea, time is against an older alcoholic..body not as strong ,etc., but I am powerless...I have to give him over to his Creator and do my life as best as I can.................hugs of support
milkwood said
Sep 17, 2017
Hello Sorst, welcome to MIP.
This is a subject that I'm still trying to find my balance with as well - I know that I would not react well to someone else telling me how to live my life and that helps me to respect other people's boundaries. However sometimes my detachment looks a bit like I'm building defensive walls and I miss the intimacy and authenticity of being able to express how I feel. Your post, and the replies above have set me to thinking how I could perhaps try to keep the focus on me, express the sadness I feel at the thought of not sharing my life with AH for example, that I miss our connection. As I type this I can imagine how this might just lead him to feeling guilt/shame rather than the empathy for my situation that I'm seeking. I don't necessarily need someone to change, but I do need to feel that I'm being honest and authentic.... As you can see, I'm still thinking this one through!
On a practical note I have, at times when the situation has been obviously difficult, been able to ask AH 'is this how you want it to be?'
I find this a tricky balance to maintain and agree, it is difficult to stand by and watch - acceptance is my tool, but trying to stay true to myself as well is my lesson!
Sorst said
Sep 17, 2017
Thanks to all who replied. Mamalioness: am I not enabling my sister by not calling her out on her s**??. She is so damaged, she can't even see it. She is in denial about her disease and believes her lies cover it up. She has cognitive decline, so this presents a moral dilemna, causing me to slip into worry.
-- Edited by hotrod on Sunday 17th of September 2017 05:50:44 PM
mamalioness said
Sep 17, 2017
((((sorst)))) I think my post kinda is misleading....I called my brother out, too, about his BS and his being MIA and not having the decency to tell us hes on a bender so we don't worry and call the cops.....But, I didn't keep it up because I knew I was wasting my breath...I called him out more for MY feeling better/venting then to think I can gonna "reach him"......so sorry I wasn't clear on my post.....its OK to call them out, tell them what they are doing, etc., and its OK to tell them what you are gonna do to take care of/protect you..... but its not ok to cover up for them, do what THEY should be doing for themselves, etc....enabling means to me, anyway, is to not let them suffer the consequences of their deeds due to the drinking.........I hope this clears up any confusion.....yea, I ripped into my brother big time back when I needed to and it felt good, but it was only for me with NO expectations that he is gonna say 'ohhhh sister dearest, I am going to go to rehab and AA right now because you don't buy into my bullS**(&" and yea, alcoholics usually are in denial just how sick they are.....sooo sad......
-- Edited by mamalioness on Sunday 17th of September 2017 11:46:02 PM
a4l said
Sep 18, 2017
Welcome Sorst. One of the blessings of this program for me is an improved ability to communicate with loved ones. Its still imperfect at times, naturally, but it is so much clearer within now and that generally translates to clarity outside of myself too. Where I'm at now in terms of questioning a moral responsibility is this: is there one to myself first and foremost? I've come to this delightful stage where I know intrinsically that I can't be someone I'm not while at the same time respecting that others also have that same burden or blessing depending on where they are at. I can relate to "me being me" as either position, burden or blessing. I remember and still sometimes touch that place where I'm my own worst enemy, but now I've also started to get comfortable with me being me as OK and acceptable. When I see someone is still in that place of being their own worst enemy as I call it, I can be compassionate. When that compassion becomes an avenue to me having to not honour my own truths, then I look at how I may need to pull back or take a new approach.
I do believe the life we live and the beliefs we cultivate shine through if we keep working on them, and in turn people we love who love us back in their own way, begin to respond accordingly. We each start to know and negotiate how far we can go in certain areas with each other. In terms of addiction, I have come to accept there is only so far dialogue may extend before we're both speaking foreign languages to each other. It does get easier, so in addition to welcoming you, I'd like to add, please keep coming back. Recovery works.
el-cee said
Sep 18, 2017
I get confused with this one at times too but then I remember how did I get help for myself? what were the circumstances that led to change for me? Well, it wasnt anyone on this earth making suggestions about what they think I should do. It was consequences of my behaviours and choices. For all you know your sister is perfectly content right now? I was content to sit in self pity and the poor mes for a very long time. I suppose its about recognising whats mine and what isnt and basically everything inside a hoola hoop around me is mine and everything else including those I love dearly, isnt.
mamalioness said
Sep 18, 2017
Oh I love what el-cee said..and yea...Me to.re: the poor me's and self pity....after a while in program, i discovered as a41 says , a better way of communicating to anyone, not just the alcoholics but anyone...I visualize a chalk circle drawn around my feet...whats outside??? aint mine...whats inside??? MINE!!!!
Bethany66 said
Sep 18, 2017
a4l wrote:
When I see someone is still in that place of being their own worst enemy as I call it, I can be compassionate. When that compassion becomes an avenue to me having to not honour my own truths, then I look at how I may need to pull back or take a new approach.
Thank you a4l for these words! They really spoke to me.
Maresie25 said
Sep 19, 2017
I am definitely someone who is over responsible to others. I am also aware that I have to be respectful and compassionate towards them.
For me personally there is a real line between over responsibility and stepping in way way over the line.
One of my friends took his own life last year. The day of his suicide he was around lots of people. They knew he was in a bad way.
I remonstrated long and hard about what they "should" have done. Ultimately I chose not to confront them on their actions or should I say "inactions".
I certainly had no idea my friend was that depressed. I was very busy taking care of my responsibilities. I was supposed to go to some social outing with him a few weeks earlier.
I had to cancel because I was exhausted. I have had to come to terms with that it is okay for me to take care of myself. Taking care of me is something I am very new at.
I miss my friend every day. My responsibility to him was to do the best I could. I did the best I could when I was in contact with him.
That didn't mean that I hurt myself in the process. Generally my caring for others in an obsessive, worried, moralistic way, hurts me deeply. I don't know ultimately that it ever made that much difference either.
Alcoholics are notoriously good at getting others to take care of them I have discovered time and again that the picture I had was not the "whole picture".
I have to walk a very careful line between being caring and being exhausted worrying about others and ultimately not taking care of myself o even a basic level.
I know full well that urge to drop everything and rush in with help, advice, resources and concern. I also know that in that process I got lost somewhere and coming back to the simple task of taking care of me
is very very difficult.
I would like to believe if I had seen my friend on the day he took his life, I could have done something to dissuade him. I have had to let go of the people who were around him did not do that.
There are some people who do not help out. There are other people like me, who help so much, that they hurt themselves in the process.
I have to rein myself in hard whenever I come across someone who needs my 'help".
My older adult sibling and qualifier leads an isolated life. At 65, she is 10 years divorced and the entire focus of her life is her out-of-town children who she rarely sees, but talks to almost daily. She does not seem to care at all about making friends. Its hard for me to not cascade into worrying about her. While I know intellectually that I did not cause her disease and that I am not responsible for her physical or mental health, I see her cognitive decline and know I will ultimately be her future caregiver. I try to love her and "meet her where she is" . But it's so hard b cause it is matter of health-- I beleive having a commnuity and connections to others would help extend her life. She has little self-love , few self-care tools and has forsaken herself and it's hard to watch. Al Anon has helped me detach with love and it brings serenity. But on some level I ask, don't I have a moral responsibility to suggest healthier lifestyles instead of watching her spiral?
When I am worried and struggle to shake it, I will often lean into my HP and then say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean. Using I statements helps in my case - it reduces the risk of friction of me being accused of taking another's inventory. Being responsible to me suggests I don't leave important things unsaid, and that's esp. true with my qualifiers as I never know what tomorrow will bring. I do want them to know I love them, care about them and want the best for them.
Glad you are here! Please keep coming back - there is hope and help in recovery!
Hello Sorst, I am pleased that you are attending alanon and have found support in the rooms. I found that, detaching with love was the most responsible actions I could take when interacting with others, alcoholic or not .
Being powerless over people places or things ,i found that it is very important to accept the fact that I can give people suggestions on how I think they can live but I cannot force solutions.
Letting go and letting God and not projecting to the future works well.
-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 18th of September 2017 09:38:01 AM
This is a subject that I'm still trying to find my balance with as well - I know that I would not react well to someone else telling me how to live my life and that helps me to respect other people's boundaries. However sometimes my detachment looks a bit like I'm building defensive walls and I miss the intimacy and authenticity of being able to express how I feel. Your post, and the replies above have set me to thinking how I could perhaps try to keep the focus on me, express the sadness I feel at the thought of not sharing my life with AH for example, that I miss our connection. As I type this I can imagine how this might just lead him to feeling guilt/shame rather than the empathy for my situation that I'm seeking. I don't necessarily need someone to change, but I do need to feel that I'm being honest and authentic.... As you can see, I'm still thinking this one through!
On a practical note I have, at times when the situation has been obviously difficult, been able to ask AH 'is this how you want it to be?'
I find this a tricky balance to maintain and agree, it is difficult to stand by and watch - acceptance is my tool, but trying to stay true to myself as well is my lesson!
Thanks to all who replied. Mamalioness: am I not enabling my sister by not calling her out on her s**??. She is so damaged, she can't even see it. She is in denial about her disease and believes her lies cover it up. She has cognitive decline, so this presents a moral dilemna, causing me to slip into worry.
-- Edited by hotrod on Sunday 17th of September 2017 05:50:44 PM
((((sorst)))) I think my post kinda is misleading....I called my brother out, too, about his BS and his being MIA and not having the decency to tell us hes on a bender so we don't worry and call the cops.....But, I didn't keep it up because I knew I was wasting my breath...I called him out more for MY feeling better/venting then to think I can gonna "reach him"......so sorry I wasn't clear on my post.....its OK to call them out, tell them what they are doing, etc., and its OK to tell them what you are gonna do to take care of/protect you..... but its not ok to cover up for them, do what THEY should be doing for themselves, etc....enabling means to me, anyway, is to not let them suffer the consequences of their deeds due to the drinking.........I hope this clears up any confusion.....yea, I ripped into my brother big time back when I needed to and it felt good, but it was only for me with NO expectations that he is gonna say 'ohhhh sister dearest, I am going to go to rehab and AA right now because you don't buy into my bullS**(&" and yea, alcoholics usually are in denial just how sick they are.....sooo sad......
-- Edited by mamalioness on Sunday 17th of September 2017 11:46:02 PM
I get confused with this one at times too but then I remember how did I get help for myself? what were the circumstances that led to change for me? Well, it wasnt anyone on this earth making suggestions about what they think I should do. It was consequences of my behaviours and choices. For all you know your sister is perfectly content right now? I was content to sit in self pity and the poor mes for a very long time. I suppose its about recognising whats mine and what isnt and basically everything inside a hoola hoop around me is mine and everything else including those I love dearly, isnt.
Thank you a4l for these words! They really spoke to me.
I am definitely someone who is over responsible to others. I am also aware that I have to be respectful and compassionate towards them.
For me personally there is a real line between over responsibility and stepping in way way over the line.
One of my friends took his own life last year. The day of his suicide he was around lots of people. They knew he was in a bad way.
I remonstrated long and hard about what they "should" have done. Ultimately I chose not to confront them on their actions or should I say "inactions".
I certainly had no idea my friend was that depressed. I was very busy taking care of my responsibilities. I was supposed to go to some social outing with him a few weeks earlier.
I had to cancel because I was exhausted. I have had to come to terms with that it is okay for me to take care of myself. Taking care of me is something I am very new at.
I miss my friend every day. My responsibility to him was to do the best I could. I did the best I could when I was in contact with him.
That didn't mean that I hurt myself in the process. Generally my caring for others in an obsessive, worried, moralistic way, hurts me deeply. I don't know ultimately that it ever made that much difference either.
Alcoholics are notoriously good at getting others to take care of them I have discovered time and again that the picture I had was not the "whole picture".
I have to walk a very careful line between being caring and being exhausted worrying about others and ultimately not taking care of myself o even a basic level.
I know full well that urge to drop everything and rush in with help, advice, resources and concern. I also know that in that process I got lost somewhere and coming back to the simple task of taking care of me
is very very difficult.
I would like to believe if I had seen my friend on the day he took his life, I could have done something to dissuade him. I have had to let go of the people who were around him did not do that.
There are some people who do not help out. There are other people like me, who help so much, that they hurt themselves in the process.
I have to rein myself in hard whenever I come across someone who needs my 'help".
Maresie25