I'm really doing a number on myself tonight. Can't sleep and just playing the tapes-of-doom over and over in my head. I used to do a ton of this but have greatly improved since I started regularly attending Al-Anon. I think what's getting me tonight is I've been thinking that our marriage is likely ending for awhile now. Nothing drastic has happened but I spoke with a friend about it yesterday.
I didn't give any of the reasons. Didn't break anonymity. I guess it has brought the reality to the forefront. I hate this. I hate the idea of breaking our children's hearts. But this relationship is dead and I'm slowly dying in it. I'm trapped but am afraid to make the necessary changes to break out and make a better life.
I guess I'll be chanting the Serenity Prayer the rest of the night.
hotrod said
Sep 7, 2017
(((Westman)) you are definitely not alone. Finally being willing to see reality, and then praying for the best solution is what helped me in a similar situation.
Remember projecting to the future keeps us stuck. If it is HP's will then it will work out for the best for all involved
Positive thoughts on the way
el-cee said
Sep 7, 2017
Maybe your not quite ready yet, maybe talking through your fears with your sponsor would help.
For me my fears were not really rational, I felt like my ex would literally die without me, this was irrational, I left and he got into recovery and has his own program, I hear hes still negative and angry but hes got a program and a life that seems to be worth sobriety for him.
Another fear I had was the guilt thing, I thought it was a betrayal to leave and that I should continue to play the martyr and make decisions based on what i imagined was good for my family, again, pretty irrational. Through working the program and seeing some of the obstacles, my gulit, my fear, my martyrdom etc and how they were not based on reality helped me.
Ultimately, this life is no dress rehearsal, I want to live a good life, a manageable and serene life and that is my responsibility and noone elses and the same goes for others including my kids they too have the same right to go out and get themselves a life that gives them happiness and joy. Its pretty simple when we peel away the insanity and just see the plain simple truth.
My sponsors words ring in my ear, she said, its later than you think. This spurs me on to keep doing the right thing for me and keep taking part in life as much as I can.
Skorpi said
Sep 7, 2017
(((WestMan)))
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Deciding to leave was hard, telling my wife was harder, but in the end, that decision and the time apart to get healthy is what saved my marriage. I couldn't have imagined that result when I was making my decision to leave. I thought I needed to leave because she was unhealthy. It turns out I needed to leave so I could get healthy myself.
Leaving can seem like such a major change, we can be lead to believe that it is a big event, a once and done thing. In my experience, it is not. There are a ton of little steps toward a healthier life that happen along the way. Hang in there. You deserve a happy, life-filled life. And your children will be happy to see you happy. Change can be hard, but worth the happy life on the other side.
SerenityRUS said
Sep 7, 2017
Hugs WM,
In my mind this is a situation that will end on its own if that's what it needs to do. In the meantime what helps keep me in the present is as silly as this sounds .. A - Z gratitude lists, most of the time when I am stuck in worry mode it just does something to change my point of focus.
By the way .. yes .. it is upsetting to think about something ending .. yes .. it is hard on the kids .. however big reality check .. the kids probably know more than you want them to even if they are young .. they are not stupid. When I was 5, I was fully aware of my dad's and my mom's infidelities and things were not "normal" in terms of this isn't what a relationship looks like. I can remember having that discussion even at that age in a group of girls saying .. yah .. my parents are probably going to get divorced (I was a tad older like 6/7). That was the lunch time conversation in that group that day .. trust me they know more than you think.
My parents actually believed I didn't know, when my mother realized when I was 13 what I actually knew and what I had witnessed she was pretty horrified, and it's like no .. when there is a fracture in a relationship for children it's a feeling of lack of security. Yes, of course the divorce was hard and I just never really saw my dad again. He blames my mom and really I know it was about his guilt. So my suggestion to you .. suit up, show up and just keep doing you. One thing I learned for sure in my journey .. happy mom/dad absolutely means happy kids. They struggle .. not like they would had I stayed in the relationship .. it's like a living death sentence that there is no pardon for, even though there is through leaving. It makes a huge difference for you to show up. One solid parent is far better than no solid parent.
I am very grateful I left. I am happier than I have ever been and my life has really taken a great turn. My kids are both thriving. Now their dad is not involved and it just is what it is .. I don't regret it for me .. I wish it was different for my kids .. it's not and it is what it is.
The biggest lesson out of all of this .. if it's good for me .. it's good for my kids. Happy mom means my kids are focused on their happiness, health.
Keep coming back :)
Lyne said
Sep 7, 2017
WM-When I came to Alanon 4 Yr's ago, I was in obsession mode about whether to leave or stay, or move to other bedroom as a strong message. I was a mess in everyway. I learned that I needed to calm myself down, get stronger, not to act on impulse, and give myself all the time I needed to get healthier before I made any decisions. Fast forward 4 Yr's, we are still together, A has almost 5 months sober and getting help, and I am much happier and calmer. I have bought my own place and will live there half time. If my A continues with her work, and I must continue with my work, there is a chance we will survive as a couple.
I did leave my first spouse, also addicted, when my son was 9, and I know the heartbreak of the moving, etc., the guilt, all of it. But as someone else said, doing what's good for me became the priority, and you are allowed also. Take you time but take care of you. Lyne
Iamhere said
Sep 7, 2017
Westman - So sorry you had a difficult 'brain night'.....they suck - there is no way around the reality - they just suck.....I love that you have the awareness that they happen way less with your recovery effort - that matches my experience. Yet, it does still happen at times and I am a 'doer' - I can't lay there and let my brain dictate my actions/life/next steps when it's way left of center.
I know you know the tools - I will truly reach for anything to work on quieting my mind. Prayers, meditation, daily readers, literature, food, TV - whatever works. Simply because - for me - when my mind is 'negative regarding all things', I know it's the disease in me rising up! Yes - it does stink to consider the end of a marriage and/or the children and/or the finances, etc. It's real that those are factual events that produce sadness. Where I see my need for action is when it's all consuming. Then I know it's disease thinking - gratitude and asset lists are awesome.
I did not leave my marriage yet my son and his baby momma did split at the end of last year. They've got 2 little ones and I have watched them go from confusion to sadness to acceptance to mostly joy...it's fascinating to watch/see/witness/experience this with them as I truly thought they would be destroyed! Yet another life experience that my projection was different than planned...
Keep doing you, keep trusting recovery, HP and find the best tools you can to help with those 'brain nights'....know that we're here for you as best we can be!!
WestMan said
Sep 7, 2017
Thank you all. Your experience, strength and hope is helpful. I was eventually able to get some rest, not as much as I would have liked but better than none. I've gone round and round on this question for a long long time. Al-Anon has helped me to step away from the issue for awhile which was what I needed. It let me get some new tools and now that I'm revisiting this question and feeling the familiar old distress I know it's temporary and that I don't have to solve all the problems I'm worried about right this minute.
Bo said
Sep 7, 2017
WestMan -- like so many of us, I hear you. Loud and clear. So many of us have been there, felt what you are feeling, experienced what you, are experiencing, etc. I feel so much for what you are going through. I was there...right there! It progressed to the point where I couldn't sleep. I couldn't get my brain, my mind, to stop racing! It just wouldn't stop. When I finally passed out, from sheer exhaustion, I started "sleep walking" and would also simply wake up out of nowhere when my body got just enough sleep/rest to be able to barely get by. I was sleeping for 2 hours and then bang, I was up again, mind racing a million miles per hour. It was horrible. I thought my body and mind were just falling apart, and failing. I thought I was dying a slow death.
So, what did I do...first, I spiked up my meetings. I didn't do 90 in 90...I did 180 in 90! Actually more, as there were days I went to 3 meetings. It was the only structure, normalcy, etc., in my day to day and in my life. So, I get it. The human mind can be very reactive -- from fear, emotion, durress, stress, anxiety, etc., the mind then reacts and often with extremism. We think worse-case scenario. We think the worst. Look at where we have been. LOL. When under stress, fear, anxiety, etc. -- our mind can be extreme, our thoughts, our feelings, etc.
In our mind a seed gets planted, a thought, a fear, whatever -- and it's off to the races. Extreme or not. When this happened what I also did was talk to my sponsor more often. A lot more. He kept me and my brain in check, on track, and so forth. He helped keep me off, away, and not part of the stinking thinking, negativity, etc. I focused on one day at a time, sometimes one minute at a time. Literally. I focused on the very next thing in front of me. Whether it was paperwork, folding laundry, or whatever. I did it and I did with the most intense, laser precision focus possible. That broke the track my mind was on. That got me to stop my mind from racing. Distraction initially or not, this proved to me that I could do it. I could get better. I didn't have to let my mind racing consume me!
My marriage was the focal point of this, so I feel for you. Even though nothing drastic happened, for me it was a cumulative effect. Slowly, every day, our marriage was chipped away at. The reality was a big part of it. I looked at my marriage, my life, our life...and said how did I get here? How did this happen? Anyway, the reality came to the forefront so to speak, and it was "in my face" -- thus, my mind had taken over and the mind racing was happening full blown. I always went to an extreme and felt that "the kids" would be the victim. Mind mind went -- they will be devastated. They will be heart-broken. They will never recover. This was my mind and my thinking. It was "my story" and my "head trash" but I made it a fact. Would it be different? Sure. Better? Worse? Different. In the end -- it would be better. Children are exponentially more resilient, smarter, more adaptable, etc., then we think. They hear, see and feel so much more than we think vis a vis their parents, the home life, etc. In the end -- I have heard this at many meetings -- children would rather and be better off COMING from a broken home than LIVING in one. There's a great in and around this, but the point was well taken.
I hated this. But the marriage was over. I could NOT come to grips with what I KNEW had to be done. I was dying and didn't want to do what NEEDED to be done to save myself, to get better, to get healthy, happy and so on. I felt trapped. After all of the above -- that's when I called my sponsor and said NOW I want to get to work. That is when I decided -- me -- for me, that I wanted to get better. I wanted to get healthy. It was about leaving, filing for divorce, making change. It was about me getting better. Once I got better...the rest would come. Then I would be able to do what I needed to do.
All the best.
DavidG said
Sep 7, 2017
Westman
I missed your first posting, Westman... I am 16 hours behind, or 16 hours ahead, of EST, depending on whether you are looking eastwards, or westwards...
...in my early days in Alanon they said that 10% of women left their alcoholic husbands, and 10% of husbands stayed with their alcoholic wives.
Things have changed a lot since then, of course. I am trying very very hard here not to preach to you!!! Oh yes. I have been in your shoes many times over- thinking those exact thoughts. Tossing and turning all night.
Beside the serenity prayer I stumped up with this one... I vowed this: "neither avoid not provoke a crisis". If it has to be, it has to be... if not, not...
...I take a deep breath, sigh and move on... ...what will be, will be...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdhAfMor9BM
DavidG said
Sep 7, 2017
Ah do believe in a higher power, a power greater than myself... this power got me so far, and got me ready to live the next moment...
we are all big people out here- we know the world... we do know how things go... but we have all bin through so much we are sometimes numbed
and tuned right out. Ah guess you come from a no-BS generation... I did not begin there, but saw the light, coming through...
...so my higher power gave me this song- which has spoken to me more than a few times...
LinSC said
Sep 7, 2017
Older now and wiser am I. I look back and remember how I tried not to divorce my husband at the time. Now I can see that I was also divorcing the kids, 15 and 13 at the time. The divorce hurt them no matter how much I thought I tried not to. It was inevitable. I did not have Al-anon at the time. Please talk to friends, professionals, read every book you can get your hands on, leave no rock unturned before you make a move. I have no doubt you ARE trying WM. If only it was easy to get Perspective an important tool. Good luck, you can only do what you can do and hopefully have not regrets. It takes WORK and not easy work, but your children are worth it. And you and the one who was once your bride is worth it too. Take what you need and leave the rest. In support.... Peace linsc
Jerry F said
Sep 7, 2017
Al-Anon for me was about changing me and the things I could and after I heard in program about keeping and open mind and that I would find help as a result I learned how to do that...I was told "Don't Project"!!, "Trust God, Clean house and help others", and much, much more which was foreign thoughts, feelings and behaviors to how I use to live and make choices. The philosophies of recovery life were so very different and unknown to me including being married to my alcoholic, addict who I could love more after separation and divorce than when we were married and lived together. This is a cunning, powerful and baffling disease and I did not have any clear powerful solutions and however once I arrived at a solution I was prepared to follow thru without second guessing and remorse.
I found peace before the divorce and knew what it was like and didn't go thru with the divorce for fear that I would loose the peace of mind. I went thru with the divorce because I was making an amends to myself for a bad choice done without clear decision making. I learned that after the fact and not before so I arrived at the point of first choice and said no to myself.
This works when you work it you really ought not continue to ruin your own peace of mind and serenity. (((hugs)))
WestMan said
Sep 8, 2017
I slept ok but I just woke up and am overwhelmed with sadness. It's actually breathtaking. I haven't felt like this in awhile and thought I did all my grieving over this marriage long ago. Deep breath. Get up and exercise. Look at the many good things I have in my life right now.
Iamhere said
Sep 8, 2017
(((Westman))) - sending you continued positive thoughts and prayers. Be as gentle with you as possible - just feel the feelings and hold on to the slogan, This too Shall Pass. That's what has carried me when waves of grief resurfaced. You are worthy!!
hotrod said
Sep 8, 2017
((Westman)) Glad that you are feeling your feelings and sharing them Sending positive thoughts on the way.
SerenityRUS said
Sep 8, 2017
Feelings are not good or bad they just are, healing and feeling is so much better than stuffing and sucking it up.
As I processed through the demise of my relationship with my X, it was a process of grief. Grieving what I wanted and didn't have .. grieving the dream .. grieving my plan vs HP's plan and grieving what I call the Leave It to Beaver image of what I thought other people had .. while I was in the relationship I was grieving .. however looking back it was just different in terms of it wasn't a healing grieving if that makes sense?? As I healed through alanon .. it was a different grief and no the sadness is not done .. it's just different.
Hugs .. keep doing you .. it's all good. :)
DavidG said
Sep 9, 2017
WestMan wrote:
I slept ok but I just woke up and am overwhelmed with sadness. It's actually breathtaking. I haven't felt like this in awhile and thought I did all my grieving over this marriage long ago. Deep breath. Get up and exercise. Look at the many good things I have in my life right now.
It is heartbreaking sometimes... pretty awful... breath-taking is a good first step for me... I did not have many feelings at the beginning- but breath equals life, in anybodies' words. For me, writing a few lines is good exercise too! ...
WestMan said
Sep 9, 2017
Day 3 and I almost feel like I haven't made any progress since last winter when I first went to Al-Anon. I know this isn't true but I am waaaay off track here. I'm suddenly so lonely yesterday and today that it's making me a little crazy. Then the doubts come. I know Al-anon is good for me but I'm currently struggling with it. I'm getting the message about God and higher power. Letting go, etc.
But my problem hasn't been that I try to control everything, rather that I don't have the courage to take necessary action. Not sure how to let go or turn it over to HP when I should be being more proactive.
Iamhere, I'm doing what you suggested. I know this will pass. I've been here before.
Jerry F said
Sep 9, 2017
Patience and practice results in progress. My sponsor taught me years ago that for every year I spent in the disease with my alcoholic/addict it would be two years of program to make things right for me. Do the math and relax dependent upon your wants and needs and expectations. Be kind with your self brother and accept that the others who have found the recovery they have also means you can have that to. Use your sponsor and the literature and the meetings. (((hugs)))
mamalioness said
Sep 9, 2017
I agree with Betty 100%...#1, you are not alone......#2, being willing to see the reality , then asking HP for best solution is what always helps...........ruminating about the past----fretting the future leads me nowhere...it keeps me stuck in a time where my inner HP cannot connect with me as HP is only in present......hang in there, my good recovery mate....seeing the realilty of ones situations is 1/2 the battle....
Iamhere said
Sep 9, 2017
(((Westman))) - still sending positive thoughts and prayers. I think it is fair to say that life is really hard....life with this disease is even more challenging than hard. It does really help me to keep that in my mind during extreme sadness. I also tend to remember that my HP truly wants everyone to be happy, healthy and whole. I've not ever been told that is an easy goal or a pain-free path. Yet, when I am sad or really hurting, I try to remember that most of my growth in recovery has happened when the pain is greatest.
We've got some chaos here and it just doesn't feel good at all. I am sad also but am remembering that my 'go-to' in the past was mad. I believe sadness as a feeling is more accurate than mad so I'm working through it. I am also doing a bit of projecting and that's just never good for me. I tend to project badly or worse case scenario - clearly not the direction I want my thoughts/attitude to go.
So - be gentle with you and know we are here. Huge (((hugs)))
KT2015 said
Sep 10, 2017
Take care of you Westman. Making that kind of decision is stressful. It sounds like you have come to a decision. Someone in my group recently compared his divorce process for running uphill. It's hard and difficult at first and you don't know if you can do it, but eventually the top of the hill comes into view, and then you get to the top and you are running downhill. Hang in there you will get to the top of that hill. Glad you are making the decision that is best for you. I believe it will be good for your kids too :)
WestMan said
Sep 11, 2017
KT you have no idea how well that analogy of running uphill fits me right now. Thank you.
Thanks for your words of encouragement everyone.
Bo said
Sep 11, 2017
Be gentle, be kind to yourself WestMan. We are all here for you. When this hit me this hard -- I focused on acceptance. I embraced that I felt this way. I surrendered to it. And then I was able to let it go. Do what you need to do and hang in there.
Jerry F said
Sep 12, 2017
I remember being taught by my sponsor that my feelings were choices which made me stumble a bit. I asked him "how so?" and he told me you can choose what ever you want to feel when ever you want to feel it. He was right again. I went to a family funeral not long after and felt I would be chastised for the smile on my face...never was and my mother-in-law felt comforted by it. Go figure. ((((hugs))))
milkwood said
Sep 12, 2017
I remember that difficult place Westman - sooo difficult, and then I would beat myself up because I realised that I was creating this stress for myself by trying to decide... and then trying not to decide... and then starting all over again!!
The way I figure it is that my life has value and if I'm not honouring that then I'm not doing my job. For me that came to mean that I didn't have to end my marriage, but I had to change the way that I was living my life - no more second fiddle to an alcoholic! My ambition is to have as few regrets as possible when my time in this world comes to an end. With the exception of other relationships I figured that I could practise being single without giving up my home. If I want to go for a walk, see friends, take a trip, do a course, or do nothing then that is what I choose to do. I think that if AH had continued to drink at the rate that he once was then I would have eventually left because there was a time when I would wake up every morning and think 'I can't do this' and then drag myself through the day. I'll never do that again!
I've sometimes likened myself to the lion in the Wizard of Oz - looking for courage! And I would forgive that lovely lion for feeling timid at times, so I choose to forgive myself as well. I try not to 'should' myself anymore.
I had to learn what my boundaries were, which is a lesson that I value. I now know that I can leave at any time if that is what I need. It is my self-esteem that I value above all else these days! Sometimes I feel fearful that I simply can not give AH the respect and positive feedback that I believe every human being deserves - too much water under the bridge perhaps? Time will tell. Just for today, I'm fine.
It is no wonder that we have these thoughts is it? And it sucks that we need to have them, but under the circumstances they make perfect sense. I think that those movie scripts that have one spouse saying to another 'I want a divorce' is way off the mark. I doubt that anyone WANTS to say that phrase. Wouldn't it be better to say what we need?
I remember someone here once said to me 'whenever and whatever you decide to do, we are here.' This place is so great and I'm happy to pass that phrase on to you Westman - we are here for you. (((((hugs)))))
WestMan said
Sep 14, 2017
Things are better this week. I'm moving forward again from last week's anguish. Then My beloved AW got drunk last night. It was pretty unpleasant. I believe she had been drinking a little when I got home. The signs are subtle but I guess I'm sensitized. She just gets friendlier and sort of chatty. But I couldn't smell anything so difficult to say. I was putting around in the yard and when I came back to the house things at first seemed the same.
I now recognize a pattern. She's first friendly and talkative, helpful or caring even. Then it changes to some sort of bullying. I think she's trying to play or connect somehow but it comes off as verbal "slams", unfriendly teasing and things that maybe a bratty eighth grader might do. This mostly directed at me but also more and more towards our son who is the oldest. Last night he went to his room to do homework. Then she followed him and was sort of badgering him in a teasing way. He has been not doing some things that he is supposed to so some of it was justified. Finally I hear him scream at her.
I don't like this, I don't think kids should be disrespectful to their parents. But, frankly she had gone too far and I think deserved it. In my experience once she starts getting wound up and acting like this it is impossible to get her to stop unless you yell at her. She came out smiling and playfully smacked me with a wooden spoon. I think she was trying to be playful anyway. But it was pretty painful and I told her to stop. Two more hits and then I had to yell at her. Then I left the room and went to watch a show. I could tell her feelings were hurt because she was on the defensive. Later on she's loudly banging around in the kitchen which is one of her older ways to express displeasure or anger.
When I come to bed she's drunk as hell, reeking of what I suppose is vodka. I have no idea where she keeps it or how she gets her drink on. Not that it matters much. We then have what I would call an uncomfortable and unsuccessful romantic encounter. I finally stopped and told her it was just too weird. Then she wanted me to justify and explain why I thought it was weird. I resisted getting into it. I just wanted to try and sleep by that point. But she kept on and I finally just blurted out "I'm tired and your drunk." I tried not to say it mean. I didn't yell or anything. She got pretty quiet after that. Did she think I couldn't tell?" anyway I'm feeling a bit guilty for not intervening earlier between her and our son. He knows she's an alcoholic but I doubt he understands that some of her words and actions are related to that. I feel like maybe I should talk to him about it. Thoughts?
SerenityRUS said
Sep 14, 2017
I forget how old your oldest is, when my kids really saw my XAH drunk it had been in bits and pieces as he at one point was a binger .. he could go for long periods of times without drinking and so it was always the extremes they saw.
To be completely honest I was so unaware of how much both of them had caught on my youngest not as much as the oldest however I found out later they had talked among themselves about the whole situation. When I knew they were fully aware of what's going on they were 12/7.
The rule of thumb is in our home, yes you need to be respectful to the parent however said parent needs to be respectful as well. I am included in that statement meaning if I am out of line they have a right to say to me .. mom .. out of line. I need to be very clear .. I don't like my XAH. Working on program with that one .. however nope .. I'm way ok with not liking him after all of the BS he's put us through over the past 5 years. Yes .. he's sick .. however that doesn't excuse ANY abusive behavior. That is a deal breaker for me big time and as the parent my children look to for safety I will absolutely tie his a$$ in a sling over that one. Take what you like and leave the rest these are my choices. My BF has more of a say in my children's behavior than my X ever will .. that is because he treats them with respect and it is returned by them. They truly adore this man. My parenting style is a little different I think in terms of we have a completely open dialog. There are things I don't want to know and I know about my kids. I am not their friend first .. I am their parent however my daughter and I are transitioning into more of the fact I will always be her parent now that she's 18 she has more accountability than in the past so I see myself more as a person of guidance mentor than parent .. unless she needs that from me. My son I am still the parental unit.
I have also dealt with my jackass of an X telling my youngest he had brain damage (I'm sure he (the X) thought he was funny .. my youngest was not amused and let him know), telling my youngest he was going to spank him during a rare visitation in public to which my oldest immediately brought up how that would NOT be a good idea for him to do. He got the you might want to talk to mom before you raise your hand to either D or me. My X has no parenting rights .. he has visitation. My children do not act out in a manner that requires sever redirection. Hell hath no fury like a seriously pissed off mama bear and I take heads off in either direction when it comes to the safety of my kids.
I can go through other things .. however reality is this .. the kids know, they need a voice .. they need an appropriate voice. They react the way I react to many different situations so it is up to me to set the bar on MY behavior so they see they have other options in dealing with a variety of situations. I don't think it is wrong for a child to be able to say .. that's not ok and be respectful about it. It is the adult that has the issue with those kinds of statements because in a dysfunctional relationship it is about power/control and the attitude of I'm the adult your the kid you have no say. I don't find that to be a fair statement. I don't like everything my kids say .. however I try to listen and they also know while they have rights to voice their opinion .. we do not live in a democracy .. as a single mother I am the queen this is my ruling queendom and I DO have the final say .. I only need to be fair and just.
So I hope that helps in terms of having a discussion .. it should be age appropriate .. it should be open and honest and it should be fair. Take what you like.
Jerry F said
Sep 14, 2017
Brother do you yet have a sponsor? Might that not be a important task? Why do I ask? When I was in your situation I found out that I was fighting two enemies...One the disease and the other me. It was a losing situation and to continue trying to do it was proof of the insanity of alcoholism. I needed support just as I need the MIP fellowship. You're trying and with the use of as many of the recovery tools we have at our hands you will feel what recovery feels like over longer periods of time. Don't play the game with the alcoholic cause you don't know the rules. (((hugs)))
Iamhere said
Sep 14, 2017
I do wish I had arrived at Al-Anon sooner. I also wish I had talked with my son's more about the disease and the affects. They know my history and they know my program yet we did not address the elephant in the room (my AH when he relapsed)...Can't go backwards and change it and don't know that it would/would not have changed the course of their lives but just some regrets.
I have only gotten 'it' together in Al-Anon because I got a sponsor and trust her completely. I have no hesitation in calling her crazy and I have no issues with her suggestions/assignments. One huge 'gotcha' for me - children do need at least one sane parent...I always thought that was me - until I arrived at recovery. I then had to see the reality that I was as crazy, if not more, than my AH. I don't have answers and am very cautious about telling another's story. My sons will tell me now that they viewed both of us equally crazy 'then'. I was so focused on perfectly controlling everything and everyone and my AH was focused on his disease. My kids also share that they are grateful I never made them 'choose' a loyalty - which I would never have asked but to a child, when one adult is talking about the other - they think and process in black/white.
So - if you believe your children are affected they are more so than you probably know. If you think they need to talk, by all means be available to them and/or offer assistance. The best gift you can give them is a parent in recovery who has patience, empathy and unconditional love...
Hang in there Westman!! Great topic and certainly appears you have more awareness about how the disease is playing out in your home. (((Hugs)))
I'm really doing a number on myself tonight. Can't sleep and just playing the tapes-of-doom over and over in my head. I used to do a ton of this but have greatly improved since I started regularly attending Al-Anon. I think what's getting me tonight is I've been thinking that our marriage is likely ending for awhile now. Nothing drastic has happened but I spoke with a friend about it yesterday.
I didn't give any of the reasons. Didn't break anonymity. I guess it has brought the reality to the forefront. I hate this. I hate the idea of breaking our children's hearts. But this relationship is dead and I'm slowly dying in it. I'm trapped but am afraid to make the necessary changes to break out and make a better life.
I guess I'll be chanting the Serenity Prayer the rest of the night.
Remember projecting to the future keeps us stuck. If it is HP's will then it will work out for the best for all involved
Positive thoughts on the way
Maybe your not quite ready yet, maybe talking through your fears with your sponsor would help.
For me my fears were not really rational, I felt like my ex would literally die without me, this was irrational, I left and he got into recovery and has his own program, I hear hes still negative and angry but hes got a program and a life that seems to be worth sobriety for him.
Another fear I had was the guilt thing, I thought it was a betrayal to leave and that I should continue to play the martyr and make decisions based on what i imagined was good for my family, again, pretty irrational. Through working the program and seeing some of the obstacles, my gulit, my fear, my martyrdom etc and how they were not based on reality helped me.
Ultimately, this life is no dress rehearsal, I want to live a good life, a manageable and serene life and that is my responsibility and noone elses and the same goes for others including my kids they too have the same right to go out and get themselves a life that gives them happiness and joy. Its pretty simple when we peel away the insanity and just see the plain simple truth.
My sponsors words ring in my ear, she said, its later than you think. This spurs me on to keep doing the right thing for me and keep taking part in life as much as I can.
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
Deciding to leave was hard, telling my wife was harder, but in the end, that decision and the time apart to get healthy is what saved my marriage. I couldn't have imagined that result when I was making my decision to leave. I thought I needed to leave because she was unhealthy. It turns out I needed to leave so I could get healthy myself.
Leaving can seem like such a major change, we can be lead to believe that it is a big event, a once and done thing. In my experience, it is not. There are a ton of little steps toward a healthier life that happen along the way. Hang in there. You deserve a happy, life-filled life. And your children will be happy to see you happy. Change can be hard, but worth the happy life on the other side.
In my mind this is a situation that will end on its own if that's what it needs to do. In the meantime what helps keep me in the present is as silly as this sounds .. A - Z gratitude lists, most of the time when I am stuck in worry mode it just does something to change my point of focus.
By the way .. yes .. it is upsetting to think about something ending .. yes .. it is hard on the kids .. however big reality check .. the kids probably know more than you want them to even if they are young .. they are not stupid. When I was 5, I was fully aware of my dad's and my mom's infidelities and things were not "normal" in terms of this isn't what a relationship looks like. I can remember having that discussion even at that age in a group of girls saying .. yah .. my parents are probably going to get divorced (I was a tad older like 6/7). That was the lunch time conversation in that group that day .. trust me they know more than you think.
My parents actually believed I didn't know, when my mother realized when I was 13 what I actually knew and what I had witnessed she was pretty horrified, and it's like no .. when there is a fracture in a relationship for children it's a feeling of lack of security. Yes, of course the divorce was hard and I just never really saw my dad again. He blames my mom and really I know it was about his guilt. So my suggestion to you .. suit up, show up and just keep doing you. One thing I learned for sure in my journey .. happy mom/dad absolutely means happy kids. They struggle .. not like they would had I stayed in the relationship .. it's like a living death sentence that there is no pardon for, even though there is through leaving. It makes a huge difference for you to show up. One solid parent is far better than no solid parent.
I am very grateful I left. I am happier than I have ever been and my life has really taken a great turn. My kids are both thriving. Now their dad is not involved and it just is what it is .. I don't regret it for me .. I wish it was different for my kids .. it's not and it is what it is.
The biggest lesson out of all of this .. if it's good for me .. it's good for my kids. Happy mom means my kids are focused on their happiness, health.
Keep coming back :)
I did leave my first spouse, also addicted, when my son was 9, and I know the heartbreak of the moving, etc., the guilt, all of it. But as someone else said, doing what's good for me became the priority, and you are allowed also. Take you time but take care of you. Lyne
I know you know the tools - I will truly reach for anything to work on quieting my mind. Prayers, meditation, daily readers, literature, food, TV - whatever works. Simply because - for me - when my mind is 'negative regarding all things', I know it's the disease in me rising up! Yes - it does stink to consider the end of a marriage and/or the children and/or the finances, etc. It's real that those are factual events that produce sadness. Where I see my need for action is when it's all consuming. Then I know it's disease thinking - gratitude and asset lists are awesome.
I did not leave my marriage yet my son and his baby momma did split at the end of last year. They've got 2 little ones and I have watched them go from confusion to sadness to acceptance to mostly joy...it's fascinating to watch/see/witness/experience this with them as I truly thought they would be destroyed! Yet another life experience that my projection was different than planned...
Keep doing you, keep trusting recovery, HP and find the best tools you can to help with those 'brain nights'....know that we're here for you as best we can be!!
Thank you all. Your experience, strength and hope is helpful. I was eventually able to get some rest, not as much as I would have liked but better than none. I've gone round and round on this question for a long long time. Al-Anon has helped me to step away from the issue for awhile which was what I needed. It let me get some new tools and now that I'm revisiting this question and feeling the familiar old distress I know it's temporary and that I don't have to solve all the problems I'm worried about right this minute.
So, what did I do...first, I spiked up my meetings. I didn't do 90 in 90...I did 180 in 90! Actually more, as there were days I went to 3 meetings. It was the only structure, normalcy, etc., in my day to day and in my life. So, I get it. The human mind can be very reactive -- from fear, emotion, durress, stress, anxiety, etc., the mind then reacts and often with extremism. We think worse-case scenario. We think the worst. Look at where we have been. LOL. When under stress, fear, anxiety, etc. -- our mind can be extreme, our thoughts, our feelings, etc.
In our mind a seed gets planted, a thought, a fear, whatever -- and it's off to the races. Extreme or not. When this happened what I also did was talk to my sponsor more often. A lot more. He kept me and my brain in check, on track, and so forth. He helped keep me off, away, and not part of the stinking thinking, negativity, etc. I focused on one day at a time, sometimes one minute at a time. Literally. I focused on the very next thing in front of me. Whether it was paperwork, folding laundry, or whatever. I did it and I did with the most intense, laser precision focus possible. That broke the track my mind was on. That got me to stop my mind from racing. Distraction initially or not, this proved to me that I could do it. I could get better. I didn't have to let my mind racing consume me!
My marriage was the focal point of this, so I feel for you. Even though nothing drastic happened, for me it was a cumulative effect. Slowly, every day, our marriage was chipped away at. The reality was a big part of it. I looked at my marriage, my life, our life...and said how did I get here? How did this happen? Anyway, the reality came to the forefront so to speak, and it was "in my face" -- thus, my mind had taken over and the mind racing was happening full blown. I always went to an extreme and felt that "the kids" would be the victim. Mind mind went -- they will be devastated. They will be heart-broken. They will never recover. This was my mind and my thinking. It was "my story" and my "head trash" but I made it a fact. Would it be different? Sure. Better? Worse? Different. In the end -- it would be better. Children are exponentially more resilient, smarter, more adaptable, etc., then we think. They hear, see and feel so much more than we think vis a vis their parents, the home life, etc. In the end -- I have heard this at many meetings -- children would rather and be better off COMING from a broken home than LIVING in one. There's a great in and around this, but the point was well taken.
I hated this. But the marriage was over. I could NOT come to grips with what I KNEW had to be done. I was dying and didn't want to do what NEEDED to be done to save myself, to get better, to get healthy, happy and so on. I felt trapped. After all of the above -- that's when I called my sponsor and said NOW I want to get to work. That is when I decided -- me -- for me, that I wanted to get better. I wanted to get healthy. It was about leaving, filing for divorce, making change. It was about me getting better. Once I got better...the rest would come. Then I would be able to do what I needed to do.
All the best.
Westman
I missed your first posting, Westman... I am 16 hours behind, or 16 hours ahead, of EST, depending on whether you are looking eastwards, or westwards...
...in my early days in Alanon they said that 10% of women left their alcoholic husbands, and 10% of husbands stayed with their alcoholic wives.
Things have changed a lot since then, of course. I am trying very very hard here not to preach to you!!! Oh yes. I have been in your shoes many times over- thinking those exact thoughts. Tossing and turning all night.
Beside the serenity prayer I stumped up with this one... I vowed this: "neither avoid not provoke a crisis". If it has to be, it has to be... if not, not...
...I take a deep breath, sigh and move on... ...what will be, will be...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdhAfMor9BM
Ah do believe in a higher power, a power greater than myself... this power got me so far, and got me ready to live the next moment...
we are all big people out here- we know the world... we do know how things go... but we have all bin through so much we are sometimes numbed
and tuned right out. Ah guess you come from a no-BS generation... I did not begin there, but saw the light, coming through...
...so my higher power gave me this song- which has spoken to me more than a few times...
Older now and wiser am I. I look back and remember how I tried not to divorce my husband at the time. Now I can see that I was also divorcing the kids, 15 and 13 at the time. The divorce hurt them no matter how much I thought I tried not to. It was inevitable. I did not have Al-anon at the time. Please talk to friends, professionals, read every book you can get your hands on, leave no rock unturned before you make a move. I have no doubt you ARE trying WM. If only it was easy to get Perspective an important tool. Good luck, you can only do what you can do and hopefully have not regrets. It takes WORK and not easy work, but your children are worth it. And you and the one who was once your bride is worth it too. Take what you need and leave the rest. In support.... Peace linsc
Al-Anon for me was about changing me and the things I could and after I heard in program about keeping and open mind and that I would find help as a result I learned how to do that...I was told "Don't Project"!!, "Trust God, Clean house and help others", and much, much more which was foreign thoughts, feelings and behaviors to how I use to live and make choices. The philosophies of recovery life were so very different and unknown to me including being married to my alcoholic, addict who I could love more after separation and divorce than when we were married and lived together. This is a cunning, powerful and baffling disease and I did not have any clear powerful solutions and however once I arrived at a solution I was prepared to follow thru without second guessing and remorse.
I found peace before the divorce and knew what it was like and didn't go thru with the divorce for fear that I would loose the peace of mind. I went thru with the divorce because I was making an amends to myself for a bad choice done without clear decision making. I learned that after the fact and not before so I arrived at the point of first choice and said no to myself.
This works when you work it you really ought not continue to ruin your own peace of mind and serenity. (((hugs)))
((Westman)) Glad that you are feeling your feelings and sharing them Sending positive thoughts on the way.
As I processed through the demise of my relationship with my X, it was a process of grief. Grieving what I wanted and didn't have .. grieving the dream .. grieving my plan vs HP's plan and grieving what I call the Leave It to Beaver image of what I thought other people had .. while I was in the relationship I was grieving .. however looking back it was just different in terms of it wasn't a healing grieving if that makes sense?? As I healed through alanon .. it was a different grief and no the sadness is not done .. it's just different.
Hugs .. keep doing you .. it's all good. :)
It is heartbreaking sometimes... pretty awful... breath-taking is a good first step for me... I did not have many feelings at the beginning- but breath equals life, in anybodies' words. For me, writing a few lines is good exercise too!
...
Day 3 and I almost feel like I haven't made any progress since last winter when I first went to Al-Anon. I know this isn't true but I am waaaay off track here. I'm suddenly so lonely yesterday and today that it's making me a little crazy. Then the doubts come. I know Al-anon is good for me but I'm currently struggling with it. I'm getting the message about God and higher power. Letting go, etc.
But my problem hasn't been that I try to control everything, rather that I don't have the courage to take necessary action. Not sure how to let go or turn it over to HP when I should be being more proactive.
Iamhere, I'm doing what you suggested. I know this will pass. I've been here before.
Patience and practice results in progress. My sponsor taught me years ago that for every year I spent in the disease with my alcoholic/addict it would be two years of program to make things right for me. Do the math and relax dependent upon your wants and needs and expectations. Be kind with your self brother and accept that the others who have found the recovery they have also means you can have that to. Use your sponsor and the literature and the meetings. (((hugs)))
I agree with Betty 100%...#1, you are not alone......#2, being willing to see the reality , then asking HP for best solution is what always helps...........ruminating about the past----fretting the future leads me nowhere...it keeps me stuck in a time where my inner HP cannot connect with me as HP is only in present......hang in there, my good recovery mate....seeing the realilty of ones situations is 1/2 the battle....
We've got some chaos here and it just doesn't feel good at all. I am sad also but am remembering that my 'go-to' in the past was mad. I believe sadness as a feeling is more accurate than mad so I'm working through it. I am also doing a bit of projecting and that's just never good for me. I tend to project badly or worse case scenario - clearly not the direction I want my thoughts/attitude to go.
So - be gentle with you and know we are here. Huge (((hugs)))
Thanks for your words of encouragement everyone.
I remember being taught by my sponsor that my feelings were choices which made me stumble a bit. I asked him "how so?" and he told me you can choose what ever you want to feel when ever you want to feel it. He was right again. I went to a family funeral not long after and felt I would be chastised for the smile on my face...never was and my mother-in-law felt comforted by it. Go figure. ((((hugs))))
The way I figure it is that my life has value and if I'm not honouring that then I'm not doing my job. For me that came to mean that I didn't have to end my marriage, but I had to change the way that I was living my life - no more second fiddle to an alcoholic! My ambition is to have as few regrets as possible when my time in this world comes to an end. With the exception of other relationships I figured that I could practise being single without giving up my home. If I want to go for a walk, see friends, take a trip, do a course, or do nothing then that is what I choose to do. I think that if AH had continued to drink at the rate that he once was then I would have eventually left because there was a time when I would wake up every morning and think 'I can't do this' and then drag myself through the day. I'll never do that again!
I've sometimes likened myself to the lion in the Wizard of Oz - looking for courage! And I would forgive that lovely lion for feeling timid at times, so I choose to forgive myself as well. I try not to 'should' myself anymore.
I had to learn what my boundaries were, which is a lesson that I value. I now know that I can leave at any time if that is what I need. It is my self-esteem that I value above all else these days! Sometimes I feel fearful that I simply can not give AH the respect and positive feedback that I believe every human being deserves - too much water under the bridge perhaps? Time will tell. Just for today, I'm fine.
It is no wonder that we have these thoughts is it? And it sucks that we need to have them, but under the circumstances they make perfect sense. I think that those movie scripts that have one spouse saying to another 'I want a divorce' is way off the mark. I doubt that anyone WANTS to say that phrase. Wouldn't it be better to say what we need?
I remember someone here once said to me 'whenever and whatever you decide to do, we are here.' This place is so great and I'm happy to pass that phrase on to you Westman - we are here for you. (((((hugs)))))
Things are better this week. I'm moving forward again from last week's anguish. Then My beloved AW got drunk last night. It was pretty unpleasant. I believe she had been drinking a little when I got home. The signs are subtle but I guess I'm sensitized. She just gets friendlier and sort of chatty. But I couldn't smell anything so difficult to say. I was putting around in the yard and when I came back to the house things at first seemed the same.
I now recognize a pattern. She's first friendly and talkative, helpful or caring even. Then it changes to some sort of bullying. I think she's trying to play or connect somehow but it comes off as verbal "slams", unfriendly teasing and things that maybe a bratty eighth grader might do. This mostly directed at me but also more and more towards our son who is the oldest. Last night he went to his room to do homework. Then she followed him and was sort of badgering him in a teasing way. He has been not doing some things that he is supposed to so some of it was justified. Finally I hear him scream at her.
I don't like this, I don't think kids should be disrespectful to their parents. But, frankly she had gone too far and I think deserved it. In my experience once she starts getting wound up and acting like this it is impossible to get her to stop unless you yell at her. She came out smiling and playfully smacked me with a wooden spoon. I think she was trying to be playful anyway. But it was pretty painful and I told her to stop. Two more hits and then I had to yell at her. Then I left the room and went to watch a show. I could tell her feelings were hurt because she was on the defensive. Later on she's loudly banging around in the kitchen which is one of her older ways to express displeasure or anger.
When I come to bed she's drunk as hell, reeking of what I suppose is vodka. I have no idea where she keeps it or how she gets her drink on. Not that it matters much. We then have what I would call an uncomfortable and unsuccessful romantic encounter. I finally stopped and told her it was just too weird. Then she wanted me to justify and explain why I thought it was weird. I resisted getting into it. I just wanted to try and sleep by that point. But she kept on and I finally just blurted out "I'm tired and your drunk." I tried not to say it mean. I didn't yell or anything. She got pretty quiet after that. Did she think I couldn't tell?" anyway I'm feeling a bit guilty for not intervening earlier between her and our son. He knows she's an alcoholic but I doubt he understands that some of her words and actions are related to that. I feel like maybe I should talk to him about it. Thoughts?
To be completely honest I was so unaware of how much both of them had caught on my youngest not as much as the oldest however I found out later they had talked among themselves about the whole situation. When I knew they were fully aware of what's going on they were 12/7.
The rule of thumb is in our home, yes you need to be respectful to the parent however said parent needs to be respectful as well. I am included in that statement meaning if I am out of line they have a right to say to me .. mom .. out of line. I need to be very clear .. I don't like my XAH. Working on program with that one .. however nope .. I'm way ok with not liking him after all of the BS he's put us through over the past 5 years. Yes .. he's sick .. however that doesn't excuse ANY abusive behavior. That is a deal breaker for me big time and as the parent my children look to for safety I will absolutely tie his a$$ in a sling over that one. Take what you like and leave the rest these are my choices. My BF has more of a say in my children's behavior than my X ever will .. that is because he treats them with respect and it is returned by them. They truly adore this man. My parenting style is a little different I think in terms of we have a completely open dialog. There are things I don't want to know and I know about my kids. I am not their friend first .. I am their parent however my daughter and I are transitioning into more of the fact I will always be her parent now that she's 18 she has more accountability than in the past so I see myself more as a person of guidance mentor than parent .. unless she needs that from me. My son I am still the parental unit.
I have also dealt with my jackass of an X telling my youngest he had brain damage (I'm sure he (the X) thought he was funny .. my youngest was not amused and let him know), telling my youngest he was going to spank him during a rare visitation in public to which my oldest immediately brought up how that would NOT be a good idea for him to do. He got the you might want to talk to mom before you raise your hand to either D or me. My X has no parenting rights .. he has visitation. My children do not act out in a manner that requires sever redirection. Hell hath no fury like a seriously pissed off mama bear and I take heads off in either direction when it comes to the safety of my kids.
I can go through other things .. however reality is this .. the kids know, they need a voice .. they need an appropriate voice. They react the way I react to many different situations so it is up to me to set the bar on MY behavior so they see they have other options in dealing with a variety of situations. I don't think it is wrong for a child to be able to say .. that's not ok and be respectful about it. It is the adult that has the issue with those kinds of statements because in a dysfunctional relationship it is about power/control and the attitude of I'm the adult your the kid you have no say. I don't find that to be a fair statement. I don't like everything my kids say .. however I try to listen and they also know while they have rights to voice their opinion .. we do not live in a democracy .. as a single mother I am the queen this is my ruling queendom and I DO have the final say .. I only need to be fair and just.
So I hope that helps in terms of having a discussion .. it should be age appropriate .. it should be open and honest and it should be fair. Take what you like.
Brother do you yet have a sponsor? Might that not be a important task? Why do I ask? When I was in your situation I found out that I was fighting two enemies...One the disease and the other me. It was a losing situation and to continue trying to do it was proof of the insanity of alcoholism. I needed support just as I need the MIP fellowship. You're trying and with the use of as many of the recovery tools we have at our hands you will feel what recovery feels like over longer periods of time. Don't play the game with the alcoholic cause you don't know the rules. (((hugs)))
I have only gotten 'it' together in Al-Anon because I got a sponsor and trust her completely. I have no hesitation in calling her crazy and I have no issues with her suggestions/assignments. One huge 'gotcha' for me - children do need at least one sane parent...I always thought that was me - until I arrived at recovery. I then had to see the reality that I was as crazy, if not more, than my AH. I don't have answers and am very cautious about telling another's story. My sons will tell me now that they viewed both of us equally crazy 'then'. I was so focused on perfectly controlling everything and everyone and my AH was focused on his disease. My kids also share that they are grateful I never made them 'choose' a loyalty - which I would never have asked but to a child, when one adult is talking about the other - they think and process in black/white.
So - if you believe your children are affected they are more so than you probably know. If you think they need to talk, by all means be available to them and/or offer assistance. The best gift you can give them is a parent in recovery who has patience, empathy and unconditional love...
Hang in there Westman!! Great topic and certainly appears you have more awareness about how the disease is playing out in your home. (((Hugs)))