Alcoholism as a disease and lingering guilt for putting myself first
gratefulforafuture said
Sep 1, 2017
Hi All,
I have to admit I am struggling with "alcoholism as a disease." I guess I see it and believe it for the most part but it feels like a double edged sword to me. I believe it is extremely helpful for the recovering addict to start trying to forgive himself and work towards a healthier, sober version of himself. On the other hand, I feel like there has to be some ownership in the destruction that the disease has caused. My husband (who I left 3 months ago so we are still legally married) is in inpatient rehab. He sounds the best I have heard him in years. He uses his phone calls to reach out to me and try to get me to see he is a changed man. If this is really true - even for the moment - that is a good thing. But I also feel like he is saying this is a disease that came over him and he was helpless to do anything about it, so now he will be back to his old self. He says when he gets out of rehab he will prove it to me and wants to win me back.
I have many thoughts/reactions to this:
I want to be kind and encouraging. I don't feel any anger towards him. I am truly happy for him if he finds his way through this and back to his healthy self.
BUT I am surprised that he thinks I can erase 10 years of unhappiness and emotional abuse. The destruction was too great and I would never have trust. Could I really go back into a situation that seems positive but then one day start finding the bottles again? No!
I feel guilty. We were married for 27 years and have 3 kids. Now I just don't want the marriage anymore. I just can't go backwards. Not sure where to go with these feelings.
Who was he BEFORE the alcoholism? He had many wonderful qualities, but he was always critical, a perfectionist, and a loner. If he had never become an alcoholic, I would have lived with these things, stayed married, and had a mostly happy life with him. Now I don't even think I want the pre-alcoholic husband. And did some of those traits contribute to his descent into alcoholism?
I do feel angry towards his parents (sorry, no detachment yet!). They sat in denial, blamed me for leaving him sick and alone, have done nothing to encourage him to seek recovery, decided that this all must have happened because I was too nurturing with our children. Forgive them? Maybe someday. The way I feel about them is forever changed.
Has anyone else felt this series of conflicting feelings? Perhaps guilt because you do want to focus on yourself and find your own happiness? How to I tell my husband that - even if he is sober and healthy - I don't want this marriage anymore?
Iamhere said
Sep 1, 2017
Hey there grateful - I have not encountered the 'same' as you but can say that in more than 26 years of marriage, with all that this disease brings and just life, growing, etc. I have certainly sat and questioned myself on my marriage and my 'desire' to stay in it. It's been so helpful when I am uncertain or discontent to write about it (journal or step work), talk about it (sponsor or trusted program friend) and pray about it (higher power).
Each time, I've processed to a point where I am exactly where I am supposed to be. I know enough about me that I am a 'runner'. I am the first to a catastrophe willing to assist and provide service as I can yet when things get tough in my own small corner of the world, I've consistently cut ties, run away and started over. This was my MO before recovery. Most of my reactions before recovery were not about self-preservation but were rather fear-driven reactions to what I projected might happen in the future.
What I love about Al-Anon is I am under no pressure or time constraint to change my life. I can take my time, process with facts instead of fear and then proceed with what appears the next right thing. I also understand that guilt about putting me first - it was a foreign concept to me and felt really selfish at times. Yet, when I did this, it doesn't mean I discount another or become difficult - it just means I am an equal in the family instead of allowing my days, my time and my world to revolve around another.
There is no wrong or right answer. We don't really know what another is thinking and these may be his 'hopes' vs. his 'expectations'. Who knows....what the program suggests for us is that we chase our own recovery from the effects of this disease, trust the program/process and then what we really want/need will be revealed. This has been very true for me and my journey.
Be gentle with you and know that there's no hurry to tell him anything until you feel it's the right time. (((Hugs))) - dig into your own recovery and the answers will come!!
hotrod said
Sep 1, 2017
((Grateful)) I can so identify and with your thoughts and feelings regarding the pain and suffering caused by this dreadful disease. I too support IAH suggestion that there is no right or wrong answer but that alanon face to face meetings and tools can and did provide me with constructive tools to live by. These allowed me to agree to go back and attempt to work it out, we were successful and am ever grateful to program for this. My hubby passed from cancer, sober after 6 years in recovery . Please do keep coming back
SerenityRUS said
Sep 1, 2017
I know everyone has to get to their acceptance that alcoholism is a disease in their own way. I can read all I want to about it however the reality is it has to make sense to me. I prefer to look at addiction as a thinking and mental disease. Mental because I can't feel it, I can't touch it and it's nothing unless there are other issues that I can see in the body .. it's not cancer for me .. caner I can actually smell, see, feel and so on. I don't know why I can smell cancer however I can. It's an odd odor to me. Alcoholism and pill Addiction does manifest itself in the body in terms of organs breaking down and so on .. so these people are sometimes slowly .. sometimes quickly committing living suicide while active.
Mental disease .. I get it .. I really do that makes sense the same way bi-polar and schizophrenia I don't need to smell it or see it even to accept that is what some people go through inside their heads. My daughter suffers from anxiety .. sever at times .. I don't really understand it .. however because I can see her having a panic attack .. I know this is not imaginary for her.
I think it's more important to accept that yes this person is ill, I go back to something I read here or somewhere else .. while I am an alcoholic I am still responsible for my choices and consequences regardless if I am drunk or sober. That to me is what it means to suffer as an alcoholic .. there is no free pass and for a LONG time I had issues that my XAH got a "free pass" what did he get really? Broken marriage? No relationship with his kids? Those things he needs to come to terms with. Someone may ask am I sorry that he has no relationship with his kids and what's my part .. my part is keeping my kids emotionally and mentally healthy .. his part is what he sees it as .. no I do have zero regrets he has no relationship with them. That's for the 3 of them to work through.
My sponsor shared a few things with me that make tremendous sense .. first off 1 month of good behavior doesn't erase 10 years of bad behavior and there should be a constant dialog of moving forward and that doesn't include discounting feelings as well as facts as in the past .. that is owning the stuff that happened and then moving it to the past pile with a living amends of not doing the same thing. It also means loving someone where they are at .. an because of past hurts it makes it hard to do so.
Second off one of the steps I believe 8 is to make amends to people .. she encouraged me to make a list of yes, no, not right now and hell no. LOL .. after 23 years of program her X was on the hell no side of the list and that was freeing for me to realize that all of this doesn't happen over night and I'm not defective because I can't "make" it happen. I encourage you to be more self forgiving first with your family situation and when you are ready be in now or in 10 years or whatever be honest about that list. I find a lot of alanon is about forgiving myself for things that happened and I was helpless over and forgot to move from victim mode to powerless less mode. It is more important to not get stuck in the hell no side of the list of anger, .. I can have a hell no side and not be angry just know that is for my own protection and when I feel safe I will figure out what to do. Now .. my sponsor always prayed for her XAH and encouraged me to do the same with mine .. for me when I have people I struggle with I ask other people to pray for them .. the God of my understanding already gets me and understands this is how I process. Based upon my faith praying for my "enemies" is something I do because it's bless them (with a 2x4) and change me (let me put the 2x4 down).
So the fact that you have anger regarding your parents is not something you need to feel you should apologize for .. it just is what it is and it's a feeling not a fact. I think to often people are encouraged to do things they are not ready for and I get very frustrated with being pushed into areas I'm not really ready for and it only hinders my growth it doesn't encourage my growth. So my encouragement is .. forgive yourself first .. from that stand point it is easier to be more compassionate towards others. Work that direction on what to do with your parents and the anger there because anger is a good motivating tool for change is does nothing except cause emotional constipation as a human being.
The last part is if you are happy in your marriage regardless if the alcoholic is drinking or not .. you do what you need to do .. stay in the marriage if that is what you want. I do not encourage anyone to stay in a relationship out of guilt. This was actually the very conversation I was having with my daughter the other day. I am not responsible to fix someone else's hurts .. I am responsible to be the best person I can be .. if that person is not meant to be in my life the God of my understanding will move them out as He sees fit. In this case for me, the answer was/is not for me, the idea of living with an active addict regardless of how wonderful they are sober is not the life I want. Honestly that is a red flag and I have made the decision not to see a couple of men based upon the fact I just choose not to go down that road. That doesn't mean these people are not wonderful people .. it means I can't emotionally or mentally afford that luxury of living with an addict .. I do not feel guilty because I understand better today who I am and what I want out of a partnership and my XAH actually has zero to offer me on my list of what I want. I picked him under the guise of his potential and I really did both of us a disservice in that regard. I don't know that I really ever loved him .. I loved what I thought he could be if only he would (fill in the blank).
The other conversation my daughter and I had was about telling people what they wanted to hear because of fear of hurting them AND looking like the bad guy. The outcome of the conversation was it was better to have the hard conversation than live with a lie. It is ok to say I'm sorry you feel that way .. it is ok to say what you mean .. mean what you say and not say it mean .. these include statements of I will always care about you, however I need to move in a different direction. And YES it sucks because it means accepting personal responsibility for my own feelings, happiness which means hurting someone else.
Hugs S :)
milkwood said
Sep 1, 2017
Hello Grateful, and thank you for posting since this is something that I struggle with as well.
I like Serenity's reminder about the need to take responsibility for actions regardless of whether or not they occurred in the disease.
I will be learning from this thread - I too feel guilty that I don't trust my AH, but also feel that it is natural for me to feel nervous of his expectations that I flip a switch and become happy because he says he's different. That doesn't sound like responsibility or recognition of consequences to me. But it is as it is - what am I going to do?
I've had a few days of feeling sad, which then moved into anger and because that anger was not expressed, I then turn it on myself as guilt. I'm good at saying 'it is what it is' about others, but less accepting of myself sometimes!
I used to fight those conflicting feelings, hence the guilt et al, but now I try to listen to both sides and get a sense of where I feel most comfortable. Learning to trust my own feelings has helped me to speak my truth. (((((hugs)))))
el-cee said
Sep 1, 2017
Yes I could have written what you have shared here. I left my ex and he got into recovery but I felt much like you, I was just done and I think thats ok. I wont live with active alcoholism again and I wont take the chance on him again either. Rightly or wrongly, I just reached a point in my own head where it felt like the end, it felt over and it has been.
I had to take responsibility for the disease within me. I heard recently that for every active drinker there are around 5 or 6 people effected. Not sure how correct that is but I do know from my own experience that my whole family were effected and just like any disease there are a set of symptoms and they are very similar for both the drinker and the non drinker. I found that for every negative I could list about my ex I also had the same set of behaviours. I lied, I pretended, I isolated, I felt shame, I manipulated, I was completely immature and on and on.
I got into Alanon and I got to know me, not me as a partner or a Mother, just me, the good the bad and I had to work the steps and commit to my own program of recovery and the benefits have been huge and not only for me but for my kids, all pretty damaged by their childhood in an alcoholic home, a sick Father and Mother.
Your husband may get through the steps and if he does its about owning up and making up to those who were hurt and this is all good stuff because whats the alternative? someone carries guilt their whole life? Being sorry their whole life? Noone should be, its all about freedom, free from the guilt but to get free I had to get to the truth of my own behaviour and make amends to those I loved and let go of the guilt. I hope you get your own program of recovery, its a process and it kind of all falls into place.
Aline said
Sep 1, 2017
Thanks for your share, grateful, you've received great ESH, food for thought...
gratefulforafuture said
Sep 2, 2017
Thank you to each of you who responded to me. Each person's message gave me more wisdom. I appreciate that this is a safe place to share feelings that I honestly don't feel comfortable sharing in my face-to-face group. I am looking for another one, by the way. For some of us, it does help to be able to write the thought down here and look at it. Very cathartic for me.
I see that we all have so many paths we will choose to take in relation to our alcoholic loved one. That is the remarkable beauty of alanon. For me (as someone on this board recently wrote) I am just beginning to get to know the woman I was meant to be and I like her.:)
Much love to each of you.
-
Iamhere said
Sep 2, 2017
Hey grateful - I used to design and support adult training in one of many career paths....I found it fascinating that teachers and trainers 'attempt' to design classes/courses for auditory and visual learners. They shared the findings 'of the day' with me and basically told me I am a visual learner. In other words, hearing what needs to be learned only for me is difficult yet seeing what needs to be learned makes it easy as pie!
Interesting enough, once this was shared, I realized how visual I am. If someone is explaining something to me over the phone, I tend to shut my eyes and try to see the words/problem. When I came to recovery, I have come to understand I am a much better processor if I write 'it' down. So - a long way to say that I agree with you!!!
When I am restless, irritable or discontent, I tend to 'spill it' on paper. Writing about it is very healing for me - like a data dump of something. Then I work to talk about it and always pray about it. We say around here often - Write About It, Talk About It and Pray About It...the answers do come!!
(((Hugs)))
Bo said
Sep 4, 2017
I have a different mindset and approach here. While I understand a person may feel, want, hope for, etc. -- whatever it is they want -- someone to apologize, own, admit, make amends, again, whatever it is...to me...that is all part of their recovery. Not mine. For me, it's about putting down the magnifying glass and looking in the mirror. What it is about me that makes me want the other person to make amends? What is going on with me that makes me want an apology. And so on. That's just me.
Now, I certainly get that what's gone on has gone on. I get it. I was there -- 10 years of drama, chaos, turmoil, havoc, lawyers, police, doctors, rehabs, detoxes, therapists, medications, and so much more. I get that for some people it takes something -- a lot maybe -- for that to be a forgive but not forget thing.
That being said -- a person is where they are. They feel what they feel. I too arrived at that point. And I focused on me, and did the next right thing in front of me. In doing the work, every single day, talking and working with my sponsor, there was no "guilt" element. I had arrived at a point of "healthy" and the guilt so to speak was not something that was present and not at odds with anything.
As far as the disease, IMO, it is. Debate it, tweak it, call it whatever you like. However you feel you feel and that's going to dictate how you move forward. I didn't analyze, dwell, etc., nor did I try to figure it out. The more I did that the more I was focused on the problem. I want to be part of the solution. I got here and now I want to get out of here. Period. I didn't view this as a moral issue. Perhaps some of the byproducts were. I was not quick to accept the "I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for the drinking" -- either from my AW or myself. I wouldn't say "She wouldn't have done that if she wasn't drunk" -- and to me that was making unacceptable acceptable. To each their own.
Thanks.
Junenine said
Sep 4, 2017
just want to say thank you for your share and i can relate. you sound quite clear about your feelings... and i, too, have many feelings, some of which seem to conflict with each other sometimes. i think i can be kind and encouraging but from a greater distance, with greater detachment, than before. i'm struggling with many of the same issues you bring up. my ex has been in treatment for 3 months and seems to be turning a corner and improving, committing to recovery. i'm seeing glimpses of the "old" him. this is great but it's also complicated, considering how many versions of him i have witnessed, and while he wants to reunite even in the future, i'm not at all sure that will be possible for me. there's a lot of water under the bridge. i'm doing my best at one day at a time - this is where i am now... and now... and now. i don't believe guilt is a reason to remain in a relationship. at all. my parents separated and then divorced after 27 years of marriage... i know it took a lot for my mother to leave my father but truth is they were not happy together at all... so i always felt it was healthier for everyone - them and me and my sister - for them to be apart.
it's a huge shift for us to turn inward and focus on ourselves. and i think it takes some time to take hold. i'm working on it. it's super late and i'm hazy and tired so i hope this makes sense... but sending you big hugs and hope for increasing peace with each day....
PosiesandPuppies said
Sep 4, 2017
Dear greatfulforafuture -
It's funny how your HP works... I have been struggling, but too sick to do much online browsing... but today I just felt the need to come on this forum. Post? Read? Who knows? But your posts caught my eye first, and after reading through all the ESH, I knew this is what I needed just for today!! Amazing!
If you check back on my "story," you'll find that I had told my AH of 29 years that I was done dealing with his alcoholism. A whole month went by of me capitulating to his family's desires. Yes, I agreed out of kindness, but in the end, my AH never really thought I was serious about leaving, and sat around for a whole month feeling sorry for himself. He wasn't drinking (no job, no money), but wasn't doing ANYTHING to help himself recover. This is my ESH... take what you want, leave the rest.
Well, now Kid and I are out of the house. Spent the holiday weekend moving the large stuff out. Kid is over the moon with happiness, and quite frankly, I am too. I am "just like you"... this is my second 'go-round' with husband's addiction issues, and I just came to a point that I was done being a participant. I came to realize that even though I was still in the marriage, it has been years since I felt that I had a true life-partner. Years! I have spent the last 6 years (time frame since he returned from rehab "a new man") wondering why I ever married this guy. What was it that made me think he would be a great partner? It was a sobering thought that we had grown so far apart on even basic values, feelings, etc. In the end, I realized that I was rooming with & taking care of a Man-Baby. Granted, a lot of this behavior ended up being because he had picked up a new addiction... alcohol.
So I began to take the advice on others on this forum and really look at ME. Stop focusing on my husband and concentrate on me. What I saw was someone who has NEVER come first. When I was first married, all I wanted was to be a "good" wife. OK, let's stop pretending... I am a perfectionist... so I wanted to be a "great" wife! LOL! And I was. Stupid, immature stuff my hubbie would do, I would swallow my anger. I would smooth over issues, cook dinners etc. Then came our kid. Then everything became about him... which in a way was both good and bad for me... it allowed my focus to stay off the unbalanced husband, but again, I did not come first. 17 years and two addictions for AH later, I think it is high time that I put ME first!
However, perhaps because I am fighting a virus and feeling low anyway, I am struggling with the reality. I am LOVING living with just me and my kid in my own place... despite basically moving into poverty-level income. Weird. I never thought I would say that. Fear of financial issues kept me from doing this for so long! But almost everyday "dry" AH is texting me, and always ends it with, "I love you." And I sit here not knowing what to do with that. How to respond? I cannot go 'no contact' because we share a child, as well as I don't have everything I want out of the house yet - including my two cats.
Due to Al-Anon and all the great ESH I have read here, I have come to a place where I didn't have to make this life-change out of anger. That has been so beneficial for me! However, it has made it harder to deal with my AH's unrealistic hopes and expectations. I think he sees my kindness as hope for a way back in! But just like you, I don't want to be in this same position 2,4, 10 years from now... I am too fearful of relapse. I understand that is my issue. My AH may not understand it, but I just keep reminding him that I have been damaged, and I am not ready to discuss any type of future. I need to work on myself, live with myself. I am sorry that this is the way it is. I have tried to tell him that 'Just because two people love one another, doesn't mean that they are good at living with each other,' but most of the time it falls on deaf ears. And I do have some sort of feelings for him... love? I don't think so. That is why I am having a problem with his sign-offs. Perhaps compassion.
In regards to your first paragraph... and this is only MY ESH... my hubby was a changed man after his first 90 day rehab. But because of the betrayal and all the lies, I did not want to take him back. He lived in his parent's motorhome for 30 days. Our son and I lived in our home. Every day he would do things and say things to "prove" what a changed man he was. It was amazing! As the 30 days progressed, I let him wheedle his way in. I told everyone he was a "new" man, and he is attending meetings and saying all the right "program" stuff. At the time, our son was 10 and still adored his father. So that was the biggest deciding factor for me... I thought it would be best for him to have a "present" dad. So I invited back into the family home, and into my life as a spouse. WITHIN ONE MONTH HE ANNOUNCED THAT HE DIDN'T NEED HIS MEETINGS ANYMORE. Although that brought up huge red flags, I minimized it b/c he said he would still meet/call his sponsor. I never saw that happen. In no way am I saying that this will be your situation... but I mention it b/c there is something important about this that just stared me in the face for years until this new entry into Al-Anon...NEVER once were my decisions based on MY wants or MY needs.
So listen to your heart/gut. Sometimes it knows better than your head.
Stay strong and take of you. Peace.
gratefulforafuture said
Sep 4, 2017
PosiesandPuppies and Junenine, Thanks so much for your posts! I must have two doppelgangers! Having been through this with my 25-year old (who may or may not be in recovery at this moment) I understand how tenuous recovery is. I do get that this is my husband's journey and mine is a different one, but I don't want to even be vulnerable to his journey. Between my son and my husband, I have lived through 10 years of their alcohol abuse and I did all the enabling, lying, avoiding, denying that everyone talks about here. But I say this out of determination, not anger: I don't want to be that person anymore and I want my life to move in a different direction. That direction probably doesn't include my husband. It makes me sad to even write that. I do not see it as an "angry" reaction to say that I have no trust and am unlikely to have it ever again. When I focus on what I need, this is what I see.
Shakespeare wrote, "To thine own self be true." I have heard this all my life, but I truly see now how important this is and how much work it takes to keep this principle close to my heart.
Jerry F said
Sep 4, 2017
Aloha Grateful and many thanks for the lead and what has transpired with it. It is like a mini/maxi review of my own journey and I am grateful that I can still be moved by the characters in this disease of which I am one. The greatest gratitude is for this program and that it never ran from me while I was stumbling, bumbling, fighting, screaming, swearing and threatening my way through it up to this minute. That I learned how to surrender and give up and turn over in spite of the testosterone and adrenalin which competed with and for my desire for peace of mind and serenity. I remember clearly and certainly that whole self feeling of "uncle" the turning it all over and having no hidden agenda waiting in the wings other than a meeting schedule and the phone numbers. I came to understand deeply the surrender statement by the alcoholic written on page 39 of the AA big book, "I have come to understand that surrender is the solution to all of my problems..." and from inside the discussions, "My only problem is me and my only solution is God." I had yet to define my HP though I had lived with an understanding of a God all my life.
I learned to understand emotions...feelings from the fellowship of Al-Anon and my therapists and college and got them appropriate..."I feel like shit" isn't a feeling "I am angry and depressed" is. Learning to offer myself the grace and empathy I gave to others removed the guilt which was the fastest diet I had ever been on. I took a LOAD off and have kept it off.
I didn't know who I was until Al-Anon taught me how to learn it and be sure and confident I had arrived at the right person. Alcoholism does even that...it gets you to belief that you just have to be someone else because no one would treat the real you like others and yourself have been doing so. Keep growing.
Keep coming back...learn and practice, practice, practice. You will just love the woman that shows up in front of you. (((((hugs)))))
PosiesandPuppies said
Sep 5, 2017
gratefulforafuture - Big hugs to you!! Be gentle with your reactions to your feelings. I know from first hand experience that you may start feeling all sort of sad emotions because if you are true to YOURSELF, you cannot be the person you qualifiers want you to be. So you cannot sit in that same environment. You feel you need to move on, to grow, to improve. And that's OK.
Peace and light to you!
PNP
Iamhere said
Sep 5, 2017
(((All))) - this is an awesome thread/discussion.....I see so, so much program in action that it affirms how this program works! I love, love, love "To Thine Own Self Be True". I heard it first in the other side of our program and really never understood it until I got to this side.
Hope you're on the mend PnP!! Grateful you all are part of my journey!
Sweetiemom said
Sep 5, 2017
Wow I don't even know where to begin on the similarities to me and my situation. I don't know what all the terms are yet I think it's Ah was in rehab inpatient two and a half years ago I had very conflicting emotions. He was in jail for 3 months before a bed was found in inpatient. We have two young children, one of which a son who was only 18 months old. I am still with my recovering husband and have just now started coming and reading threads. I hate living like this he's "getting better"as in he is not drinking and is attending AA meetings regularly building a house going to work though I do have to drive him still, and it's all I can do to even look him in the eye. He still treats me with disregard and of course is putting his recovery first and then our children which is how it should be but leaves very little room for me. I feel alone all the time and disconnected, so unhappy because I'm pretty sure I could never really truly forgive him for all that he's put me and the kids through in the last 16 years of marriage. I'm so disappointed in myself because it seems like no matter how hard I try I'm not making this work, so he gets to get better have all the support he needs and I still feel this way? I guess what I'm saying is I wish I would have left him when he was in inpatient and stuck to my guns. I know we're supposed to live each day and all, but if you feel in your heart that this is the best decision don't back down. Your HP, or just good old-fashioned common sense is screaming something at you... Listen. I wish I had had the clarity that you had to leave and then come here for support instead of waiting two years, thanks to all of you who write and let us listen.
Wolfie55 said
Sep 7, 2017
Being inpatient in a rehab is kinda like being in rehab impatient. Thanks for your sharing.
Hi All,
I have to admit I am struggling with "alcoholism as a disease." I guess I see it and believe it for the most part but it feels like a double edged sword to me. I believe it is extremely helpful for the recovering addict to start trying to forgive himself and work towards a healthier, sober version of himself. On the other hand, I feel like there has to be some ownership in the destruction that the disease has caused. My husband (who I left 3 months ago so we are still legally married) is in inpatient rehab. He sounds the best I have heard him in years. He uses his phone calls to reach out to me and try to get me to see he is a changed man. If this is really true - even for the moment - that is a good thing. But I also feel like he is saying this is a disease that came over him and he was helpless to do anything about it, so now he will be back to his old self. He says when he gets out of rehab he will prove it to me and wants to win me back.
I have many thoughts/reactions to this:
Has anyone else felt this series of conflicting feelings? Perhaps guilt because you do want to focus on yourself and find your own happiness? How to I tell my husband that - even if he is sober and healthy - I don't want this marriage anymore?
Each time, I've processed to a point where I am exactly where I am supposed to be. I know enough about me that I am a 'runner'. I am the first to a catastrophe willing to assist and provide service as I can yet when things get tough in my own small corner of the world, I've consistently cut ties, run away and started over. This was my MO before recovery. Most of my reactions before recovery were not about self-preservation but were rather fear-driven reactions to what I projected might happen in the future.
What I love about Al-Anon is I am under no pressure or time constraint to change my life. I can take my time, process with facts instead of fear and then proceed with what appears the next right thing. I also understand that guilt about putting me first - it was a foreign concept to me and felt really selfish at times. Yet, when I did this, it doesn't mean I discount another or become difficult - it just means I am an equal in the family instead of allowing my days, my time and my world to revolve around another.
There is no wrong or right answer. We don't really know what another is thinking and these may be his 'hopes' vs. his 'expectations'. Who knows....what the program suggests for us is that we chase our own recovery from the effects of this disease, trust the program/process and then what we really want/need will be revealed. This has been very true for me and my journey.
Be gentle with you and know that there's no hurry to tell him anything until you feel it's the right time. (((Hugs))) - dig into your own recovery and the answers will come!!
((Grateful)) I can so identify and with your thoughts and feelings regarding the pain and suffering caused by this dreadful disease.
I too support IAH suggestion that there is no right or wrong answer but that alanon face to face meetings and tools can and did provide me with constructive tools to live by. These allowed me to agree to go back and attempt to work it out, we were successful and am ever grateful to program for this.
My hubby passed from cancer, sober after 6 years in recovery . Please do keep coming back
Mental disease .. I get it .. I really do that makes sense the same way bi-polar and schizophrenia I don't need to smell it or see it even to accept that is what some people go through inside their heads. My daughter suffers from anxiety .. sever at times .. I don't really understand it .. however because I can see her having a panic attack .. I know this is not imaginary for her.
I think it's more important to accept that yes this person is ill, I go back to something I read here or somewhere else .. while I am an alcoholic I am still responsible for my choices and consequences regardless if I am drunk or sober. That to me is what it means to suffer as an alcoholic .. there is no free pass and for a LONG time I had issues that my XAH got a "free pass" what did he get really? Broken marriage? No relationship with his kids? Those things he needs to come to terms with. Someone may ask am I sorry that he has no relationship with his kids and what's my part .. my part is keeping my kids emotionally and mentally healthy .. his part is what he sees it as .. no I do have zero regrets he has no relationship with them. That's for the 3 of them to work through.
My sponsor shared a few things with me that make tremendous sense .. first off 1 month of good behavior doesn't erase 10 years of bad behavior and there should be a constant dialog of moving forward and that doesn't include discounting feelings as well as facts as in the past .. that is owning the stuff that happened and then moving it to the past pile with a living amends of not doing the same thing. It also means loving someone where they are at .. an because of past hurts it makes it hard to do so.
Second off one of the steps I believe 8 is to make amends to people .. she encouraged me to make a list of yes, no, not right now and hell no. LOL .. after 23 years of program her X was on the hell no side of the list and that was freeing for me to realize that all of this doesn't happen over night and I'm not defective because I can't "make" it happen. I encourage you to be more self forgiving first with your family situation and when you are ready be in now or in 10 years or whatever be honest about that list. I find a lot of alanon is about forgiving myself for things that happened and I was helpless over and forgot to move from victim mode to powerless less mode. It is more important to not get stuck in the hell no side of the list of anger, .. I can have a hell no side and not be angry just know that is for my own protection and when I feel safe I will figure out what to do. Now .. my sponsor always prayed for her XAH and encouraged me to do the same with mine .. for me when I have people I struggle with I ask other people to pray for them .. the God of my understanding already gets me and understands this is how I process. Based upon my faith praying for my "enemies" is something I do because it's bless them (with a 2x4) and change me (let me put the 2x4 down).
So the fact that you have anger regarding your parents is not something you need to feel you should apologize for .. it just is what it is and it's a feeling not a fact. I think to often people are encouraged to do things they are not ready for and I get very frustrated with being pushed into areas I'm not really ready for and it only hinders my growth it doesn't encourage my growth. So my encouragement is .. forgive yourself first .. from that stand point it is easier to be more compassionate towards others. Work that direction on what to do with your parents and the anger there because anger is a good motivating tool for change is does nothing except cause emotional constipation as a human being.
The last part is if you are happy in your marriage regardless if the alcoholic is drinking or not .. you do what you need to do .. stay in the marriage if that is what you want. I do not encourage anyone to stay in a relationship out of guilt. This was actually the very conversation I was having with my daughter the other day. I am not responsible to fix someone else's hurts .. I am responsible to be the best person I can be .. if that person is not meant to be in my life the God of my understanding will move them out as He sees fit. In this case for me, the answer was/is not for me, the idea of living with an active addict regardless of how wonderful they are sober is not the life I want. Honestly that is a red flag and I have made the decision not to see a couple of men based upon the fact I just choose not to go down that road. That doesn't mean these people are not wonderful people .. it means I can't emotionally or mentally afford that luxury of living with an addict .. I do not feel guilty because I understand better today who I am and what I want out of a partnership and my XAH actually has zero to offer me on my list of what I want. I picked him under the guise of his potential and I really did both of us a disservice in that regard. I don't know that I really ever loved him .. I loved what I thought he could be if only he would (fill in the blank).
The other conversation my daughter and I had was about telling people what they wanted to hear because of fear of hurting them AND looking like the bad guy. The outcome of the conversation was it was better to have the hard conversation than live with a lie. It is ok to say I'm sorry you feel that way .. it is ok to say what you mean .. mean what you say and not say it mean .. these include statements of I will always care about you, however I need to move in a different direction. And YES it sucks because it means accepting personal responsibility for my own feelings, happiness which means hurting someone else.
Hugs S :)
I like Serenity's reminder about the need to take responsibility for actions regardless of whether or not they occurred in the disease.
I will be learning from this thread - I too feel guilty that I don't trust my AH, but also feel that it is natural for me to feel nervous of his expectations that I flip a switch and become happy because he says he's different. That doesn't sound like responsibility or recognition of consequences to me. But it is as it is - what am I going to do?
I've had a few days of feeling sad, which then moved into anger and because that anger was not expressed, I then turn it on myself as guilt. I'm good at saying 'it is what it is' about others, but less accepting of myself sometimes!
I used to fight those conflicting feelings, hence the guilt et al, but now I try to listen to both sides and get a sense of where I feel most comfortable. Learning to trust my own feelings has helped me to speak my truth. (((((hugs)))))
I had to take responsibility for the disease within me. I heard recently that for every active drinker there are around 5 or 6 people effected. Not sure how correct that is but I do know from my own experience that my whole family were effected and just like any disease there are a set of symptoms and they are very similar for both the drinker and the non drinker. I found that for every negative I could list about my ex I also had the same set of behaviours. I lied, I pretended, I isolated, I felt shame, I manipulated, I was completely immature and on and on.
I got into Alanon and I got to know me, not me as a partner or a Mother, just me, the good the bad and I had to work the steps and commit to my own program of recovery and the benefits have been huge and not only for me but for my kids, all pretty damaged by their childhood in an alcoholic home, a sick Father and Mother.
Your husband may get through the steps and if he does its about owning up and making up to those who were hurt and this is all good stuff because whats the alternative? someone carries guilt their whole life? Being sorry their whole life? Noone should be, its all about freedom, free from the guilt but to get free I had to get to the truth of my own behaviour and make amends to those I loved and let go of the guilt. I hope you get your own program of recovery, its a process and it kind of all falls into place.
I see that we all have so many paths we will choose to take in relation to our alcoholic loved one. That is the remarkable beauty of alanon. For me (as someone on this board recently wrote) I am just beginning to get to know the woman I was meant to be and I like her.:)
Much love to each of you.
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Interesting enough, once this was shared, I realized how visual I am. If someone is explaining something to me over the phone, I tend to shut my eyes and try to see the words/problem. When I came to recovery, I have come to understand I am a much better processor if I write 'it' down. So - a long way to say that I agree with you!!!
When I am restless, irritable or discontent, I tend to 'spill it' on paper. Writing about it is very healing for me - like a data dump of something. Then I work to talk about it and always pray about it. We say around here often - Write About It, Talk About It and Pray About It...the answers do come!!
(((Hugs)))
Now, I certainly get that what's gone on has gone on. I get it. I was there -- 10 years of drama, chaos, turmoil, havoc, lawyers, police, doctors, rehabs, detoxes, therapists, medications, and so much more. I get that for some people it takes something -- a lot maybe -- for that to be a forgive but not forget thing.
That being said -- a person is where they are. They feel what they feel. I too arrived at that point. And I focused on me, and did the next right thing in front of me. In doing the work, every single day, talking and working with my sponsor, there was no "guilt" element. I had arrived at a point of "healthy" and the guilt so to speak was not something that was present and not at odds with anything.
As far as the disease, IMO, it is. Debate it, tweak it, call it whatever you like. However you feel you feel and that's going to dictate how you move forward. I didn't analyze, dwell, etc., nor did I try to figure it out. The more I did that the more I was focused on the problem. I want to be part of the solution. I got here and now I want to get out of here. Period. I didn't view this as a moral issue. Perhaps some of the byproducts were. I was not quick to accept the "I wouldn't have done it if it weren't for the drinking" -- either from my AW or myself. I wouldn't say "She wouldn't have done that if she wasn't drunk" -- and to me that was making unacceptable acceptable. To each their own.
Thanks.
just want to say thank you for your share and i can relate. you sound quite clear about your feelings... and i, too, have many feelings, some of which seem to conflict with each other sometimes. i think i can be kind and encouraging but from a greater distance, with greater detachment, than before. i'm struggling with many of the same issues you bring up. my ex has been in treatment for 3 months and seems to be turning a corner and improving, committing to recovery. i'm seeing glimpses of the "old" him. this is great but it's also complicated, considering how many versions of him i have witnessed, and while he wants to reunite even in the future, i'm not at all sure that will be possible for me. there's a lot of water under the bridge. i'm doing my best at one day at a time - this is where i am now... and now... and now. i don't believe guilt is a reason to remain in a relationship. at all. my parents separated and then divorced after 27 years of marriage... i know it took a lot for my mother to leave my father but truth is they were not happy together at all... so i always felt it was healthier for everyone - them and me and my sister - for them to be apart.
it's a huge shift for us to turn inward and focus on ourselves. and i think it takes some time to take hold. i'm working on it. it's super late and i'm hazy and tired so i hope this makes sense... but sending you big hugs and hope for increasing peace with each day....
Dear greatfulforafuture -
It's funny how your HP works... I have been struggling, but too sick to do much online browsing... but today I just felt the need to come on this forum. Post? Read? Who knows? But your posts caught my eye first, and after reading through all the ESH, I knew this is what I needed just for today!! Amazing!
If you check back on my "story," you'll find that I had told my AH of 29 years that I was done dealing with his alcoholism. A whole month went by of me capitulating to his family's desires. Yes, I agreed out of kindness, but in the end, my AH never really thought I was serious about leaving, and sat around for a whole month feeling sorry for himself. He wasn't drinking (no job, no money), but wasn't doing ANYTHING to help himself recover. This is my ESH... take what you want, leave the rest.
Well, now Kid and I are out of the house. Spent the holiday weekend moving the large stuff out. Kid is over the moon with happiness, and quite frankly, I am too. I am "just like you"... this is my second 'go-round' with husband's addiction issues, and I just came to a point that I was done being a participant. I came to realize that even though I was still in the marriage, it has been years since I felt that I had a true life-partner. Years! I have spent the last 6 years (time frame since he returned from rehab "a new man") wondering why I ever married this guy. What was it that made me think he would be a great partner? It was a sobering thought that we had grown so far apart on even basic values, feelings, etc. In the end, I realized that I was rooming with & taking care of a Man-Baby. Granted, a lot of this behavior ended up being because he had picked up a new addiction... alcohol.
So I began to take the advice on others on this forum and really look at ME. Stop focusing on my husband and concentrate on me. What I saw was someone who has NEVER come first. When I was first married, all I wanted was to be a "good" wife. OK, let's stop pretending... I am a perfectionist... so I wanted to be a "great" wife! LOL! And I was. Stupid, immature stuff my hubbie would do, I would swallow my anger. I would smooth over issues, cook dinners etc. Then came our kid. Then everything became about him... which in a way was both good and bad for me... it allowed my focus to stay off the unbalanced husband, but again, I did not come first. 17 years and two addictions for AH later, I think it is high time that I put ME first!
However, perhaps because I am fighting a virus and feeling low anyway, I am struggling with the reality. I am LOVING living with just me and my kid in my own place... despite basically moving into poverty-level income. Weird. I never thought I would say that. Fear of financial issues kept me from doing this for so long! But almost everyday "dry" AH is texting me, and always ends it with, "I love you." And I sit here not knowing what to do with that. How to respond? I cannot go 'no contact' because we share a child, as well as I don't have everything I want out of the house yet - including my two cats.
Due to Al-Anon and all the great ESH I have read here, I have come to a place where I didn't have to make this life-change out of anger. That has been so beneficial for me! However, it has made it harder to deal with my AH's unrealistic hopes and expectations. I think he sees my kindness as hope for a way back in! But just like you, I don't want to be in this same position 2,4, 10 years from now... I am too fearful of relapse. I understand that is my issue. My AH may not understand it, but I just keep reminding him that I have been damaged, and I am not ready to discuss any type of future. I need to work on myself, live with myself. I am sorry that this is the way it is. I have tried to tell him that 'Just because two people love one another, doesn't mean that they are good at living with each other,' but most of the time it falls on deaf ears. And I do have some sort of feelings for him... love? I don't think so. That is why I am having a problem with his sign-offs. Perhaps compassion.
In regards to your first paragraph... and this is only MY ESH... my hubby was a changed man after his first 90 day rehab. But because of the betrayal and all the lies, I did not want to take him back. He lived in his parent's motorhome for 30 days. Our son and I lived in our home. Every day he would do things and say things to "prove" what a changed man he was. It was amazing! As the 30 days progressed, I let him wheedle his way in. I told everyone he was a "new" man, and he is attending meetings and saying all the right "program" stuff. At the time, our son was 10 and still adored his father. So that was the biggest deciding factor for me... I thought it would be best for him to have a "present" dad. So I invited back into the family home, and into my life as a spouse. WITHIN ONE MONTH HE ANNOUNCED THAT HE DIDN'T NEED HIS MEETINGS ANYMORE. Although that brought up huge red flags, I minimized it b/c he said he would still meet/call his sponsor. I never saw that happen. In no way am I saying that this will be your situation... but I mention it b/c there is something important about this that just stared me in the face for years until this new entry into Al-Anon...NEVER once were my decisions based on MY wants or MY needs.
So listen to your heart/gut. Sometimes it knows better than your head.
Stay strong and take of you. Peace.
PosiesandPuppies and Junenine, Thanks so much for your posts! I must have two doppelgangers! Having been through this with my 25-year old (who may or may not be in recovery at this moment) I understand how tenuous recovery is. I do get that this is my husband's journey and mine is a different one, but I don't want to even be vulnerable to his journey. Between my son and my husband, I have lived through 10 years of their alcohol abuse and I did all the enabling, lying, avoiding, denying that everyone talks about here. But I say this out of determination, not anger: I don't want to be that person anymore and I want my life to move in a different direction. That direction probably doesn't include my husband. It makes me sad to even write that. I do not see it as an "angry" reaction to say that I have no trust and am unlikely to have it ever again. When I focus on what I need, this is what I see.
Shakespeare wrote, "To thine own self be true." I have heard this all my life, but I truly see now how important this is and how much work it takes to keep this principle close to my heart.
Aloha Grateful and many thanks for the lead and what has transpired with it. It is like a mini/maxi review of my own journey and I am grateful that I can still be moved by the characters in this disease of which I am one. The greatest gratitude is for this program and that it never ran from me while I was stumbling, bumbling, fighting, screaming, swearing and threatening my way through it up to this minute. That I learned how to surrender and give up and turn over in spite of the testosterone and adrenalin which competed with and for my desire for peace of mind and serenity. I remember clearly and certainly that whole self feeling of "uncle" the turning it all over and having no hidden agenda waiting in the wings other than a meeting schedule and the phone numbers. I came to understand deeply the surrender statement by the alcoholic written on page 39 of the AA big book, "I have come to understand that surrender is the solution to all of my problems..." and from inside the discussions, "My only problem is me and my only solution is God." I had yet to define my HP though I had lived with an understanding of a God all my life.
I learned to understand emotions...feelings from the fellowship of Al-Anon and my therapists and college and got them appropriate..."I feel like shit" isn't a feeling "I am angry and depressed" is. Learning to offer myself the grace and empathy I gave to others removed the guilt which was the fastest diet I had ever been on. I took a LOAD off and have kept it off.
I didn't know who I was until Al-Anon taught me how to learn it and be sure and confident I had arrived at the right person. Alcoholism does even that...it gets you to belief that you just have to be someone else because no one would treat the real you like others and yourself have been doing so. Keep growing.
Keep coming back...learn and practice, practice, practice. You will just love the woman that shows up in front of you. (((((hugs)))))
Peace and light to you!
PNP
Hope you're on the mend PnP!! Grateful you all are part of my journey!