Welcome to MIP CuriousKate - glad you found us and glad that you joined right in. I'm with Mary above me - put your first and get to Al-Anon meetings so you have local support. One element of 'me' prior to recovery was when I considered best next steps, they were always 'conditional' which, as you've suggested were 'heard' as threats and/or ultimatums. Embracing the program and recovery, I did learn (with a sponsor) how to set boundaries so they were for my protection and not for punishment of another.

I will say that the last time I enforced a 'move-out' boundary, my son asked for 30 days. He accepted he'd broken the boundary (brought substances into my home) and asked for a month to find another place. Only because this was a vastly different response from him than before, and pretty darn mature + I'd never considered 'fair notice', I did agree. That was the hardest 30 days in my life/recovery, yet I learned that I can treat another with dignity and respect even when I am not thrilled with their actions.

I also learned in recovery to 'say what I mean, mean what I say and not say it mean'....this was a big growth point for me as I struggled to put me first so more often than not, used You statements. I now today speak with I statements.

Keep coming back and know that you're not alone! There is hope and help in recovery!

Asking myself the hard questions, with the help of you both and all the others found here, is going to help me tremendously... I can tell already.
I sincerely appreciate the kind words and food for thought from your replies.
I hope to keep learning from others' experiences here and eventually work up the courage to get to an in-person meeting.

Thank you again!

Kate - for me, when I found MIP, it allowed me some comfort - I realized I really was not alone. There are so many people affected by this disease, yet in my own distorted thinking, I really felt alone, shame, guilt, confusion, etc.

MIP gave me the courage to venture into a F2F (face to face) meeting. I did not find what I wanted at the first group, but did at the second. I was not thrilled to be there as I had a ton of resentments AND wanted them fixed - not me!! It was suggested to me that I keep an open mind and look for the similarities instead of the differences.

Keep coming back - it's so worth it and so are you!

I think you make a great point in trying to maintain the empathy that got me to where I am, but switch the focus so it is productive (by using self-reflection).
I can only hope to be as courageous and serene as you guys. I have so much to learn from you all!

not to be glib but even though i told exah i was moving in 1 month and he could see the packed boxes throughout the house, he still didnt realize 2 wks after i was moved and gone that i wasnt ever coming back..small lol.....

Kate, welcome. You are in the right place in face to face al-anon meetings, and here as well. While many newcomers, when they first arrive and are in crisis, have similar stories -- it is very common that they ask a lot of questions, touch upon several different topics or incidents, and just seem to not know what to do. My point is -- many of us have been exactly where you are, and seen what you are seeing, and have felt what you are feeling...and many of us have gotten through it, successfully. We've gotten better, and gotten healthy. That said, you touched upon and asked about a lot.

One of the common obstacles for newcomers to overcome -- is that many of the answers you are seeking and that you will hear, are coming from a context that is very different from where you are right now. Many of the answers you will get, the comments, the suggestions -- they require a change in thinking, mindset, etc., sometimes, simply to understand them and it make sense. So much of what I heard as a newcomer didn't make sense to me, and seemed completely foreign to me -- because my head and my thinking was in such a different place than the people I was talking to and listening to.

That said, I'll give you my experience and perspective based upon my experience. First, you will start to hear and learn that in order to get better, and get healthy, you need to start focusing on you. Now that may sound crazy to you. It did to me. However, you are so wrapped up in him -- what he's doing, where he's going, his lies, promises, broken promises, behavior, etc. -- that you truly can't think straight and as a result your life has become unmanageable. You may think focusing on you sounds selfish. You may think it means ignoring him or not talking to him. It does not mean any of that. But it does mean that you have to make change -- and the only thing you can change is YOU. It also means -- and you won't want to hear this -- there is nothing you can do about his drinking. He will only quit WHEN and IF he wants to. You can beg, plead, threaten, try to explain, try to convince, cry, scream, yell, make incredible, touching and moving speeches, and make perfect sense...but he will not quit UNLESS and UNTIL he wants to. Your efforts will not make him quit. I tried for years. I, and everyone else failed to get the alcoholic to stop drinking or the drug addict to stop using drugs.

The alcoholic will give you every reason in the world why they drink. Some might sound ludicrous, completely outlandish. Some might actually make sense. However, the alcoholic has a disease. They drink. Period. That's what alcoholics do. If they truly want to get better, get healthy -- they will make the decision to do so, because they want to, and then they will do whatever it takes to quit and get better. You will see and hear denial, lies, stories about why they did or didn't do something, and more. This disease is a cunning, baffling, insidious, progressive, decimating, enigmatic, and crippling disease -- for the alcoholic, and potentially loved ones, family members, people around them, etc.

Going to face to face al-anon meetings, regularly and many, will help you. Find a sponsor. Start focusing and working on YOU. Immerse yourself in acceptance, then learn about detaching, enabling, your role and contribution to what is going on between the two of you and in and around your life.

Your boundary -- may not be a boundary. It sounds like an ultimatum. I will leave if you don't start actively addressing your alcohol abuse issues. However, even if he quits drinking -- and I am not saying he has or has not -- he still has what we call the 'ism's. Like you said -- a dry drunk. So, your boundary -- you have to learn about how to properly and in a healthy way, set a true boundary and honor it. Not him honor it -- you honor it. A boundary is not designed to get someone else to stop doing what they are doing. It is not to get someone to do what you want them to do. A boundary is designed to protect you, to keep you in a safe and healthy place, mentally, physically, etc.

Your BF is not a bad person. You said he is a good person. But he is a sick person. Either he will want to get better/healthy, or he won't. The rest -- what that does to you, how that impacts you, and what you do for you, about you, etc. -- is up to YOU. When I was in a similar situation, like you are in -- I had my sponsor help me establish my boundary. I checked my motives, to make sure I was being open and honest. I disclosed my boundary to my wife -- and made sure it was not a threat, ultimatum, or effort of manipulation, or effort to get her to stop, get what I want, etc. -- and made it clear. I was kind, thoughtful, and had compassion for her. But, as the promises, excuses, stories, drama, chaos, turmoil, and so much more started -- I stuck to my boundary. She was angry. Boundaries will tend to make the alcoholic angry, mostly at you/us. It will make them lash out, blame, and more. Because, they are no longer getting what they want.

However, I stood strong, and I honored and stuck to my boundary. She was angry. But, I got better. I got healthy. And I found happiness.

Side note -- I found happiness -- whether she was drinking or not, whether she quit or not, whether we stayed together or not, whether or not many things. I found happiness. Period. Independent of her and what she did or didn't do.

Keep coming back.

When I did the "AA or we split" thingy with my AH, I kept the focus on me, and I was just making it REAL clear.....we get help?? or we are history...I was done...done with having to detach all the time....do things on my own all the time....life single and still married...when I say live single, I had really no partner to do things with......I did my boundary for ME..and I made that clear to him....I told him that i loved him...always wold, but I had reached a different place in life....I saw he was not wanting to get sober, get better, get healthier and I was at the place where I wanted that....emotional sobriety for me, healthier thinking for me.....yea, some folks can do it and still stay with their partner and its a matter of choice...I don't ever tell anyone to go or stay, for me??? It was best to split and I think it is because I remember the horrid, messy, ugly death my alcoholic and just god awful mother went through....I had no feelings anymore for the woman, but I got stuck "babysitting" for her many many times and as a kid, I had no choice....I won't go through it again...end of life care is a bitch at best......and leading up to the "end of life" stages is a hell as well.....I wanted a happy, healthy, equal, mutual, honest and open relationship.....yea, I could do stuff and have fun without him, but many times I could not bring my friends home because he was #$%^faced drunk and it was unsettling to say the least.......happiness is something that has to begin WITHIN, but for me??? and this is just MY choice...watching a sick alcoholic who just does not want to TRY to get better , but slowly killing themselves, I won't go through it again.....mly boundary on my EX was ALL about me...ALL about what I wanted for my path......we no longer were a match......and I told him that....I loved him, some of me still does, because he was instrinsically sweet and kind, but he had a disease and I would have been watching him die slowly and just was not "there" anymore....I would love to find another partner again, but If it does not happen,I will "toss in" with my cousin or my BFF and we can hang out and have fun.....

I don't "need" a partner, but It would be nice, IF he is sober, healthy, has a healthy self respect, honest, open, humble, willing to pull the plow in the same direction as I am......that old saying "unevenly yoked" comes to mind....if oxen were not properly yoked in the old days, they literally could kill each other not being "even in the yoke" and it is true for me today....I know where I am at..where I want to be...where I am working to be....yes, I have healing I must do, and I am working on me..every day, I get on line and do research to augment my program to help me with my particular issues....I WANT to be healthier, better, better for and to me...........I checked my motives even back then..."am i pulling a manipulation on him???" and I can honestly say that it was basically My telling him to "poop or get off the pot---I have changed and am swimming this way and we either swim together towards the same goals, or I let you go your separate way and I'll swim to my goal by myself" I think , even back then b4 recovery, I knew that manipulating IF it even works at all, it is a shallow "victory" albeit a temporary one at that....most people will rebel when caving into another's manipulating attempts.....I wanted us BOTH to have a better life...a healthier life...His liver was already beginning to swell from the drinking.....I think when one has gone through "end of life" stages living with an alcoholic, its something you never forget....why did i hook up with him in teh beginning??? knowing he drank??? he controlled it when we were courting....really, he was smart and I was so wanting "this time" to be the "one" I didn't even see the red flags that were there......wanting so much to share life/love with someone and good ole CoDa denial can really play tricks on the mind.......I learned a lot from him....but Al-anon really woke me up to what is reality, what are the signs, what do I do to take care of me, whether I stay or leave, I stood up for me...Stood up for where I wanted to be....Stood up for putting an end to MY disease and what I wanted out of life................Just saying

Bo--

So much of what you said rings true to where I am. I'm 25 and still have so much to learn about life-- especially in creating and maintaining healthy relationships and boundaries. I think it is important to check my motivations because as much as I consciously think what I say or do is coming from a good place (and frequently, it truly is), that doesn't mean that it isn't harmful to his well being or mine. It seems that a good way to check my motivations is to see who I am trying to help, and so long as it is for myself, my intentions are truer. Your thoughtfulness is not wasted on me. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me.

Lioness--

Equality is something I have always wanted in a relationship. It would be different if we were "swimming" towards the same goal, but it feels like depending on the day, one of us is dragging the other up stream, which gets no one any farther. There is no sense in trying to explain my feelings because it can't make him understand, or even want to understand, my perspective because I don't think he recognizes his problem. And from what I have read here, that's where I have to "let go and let 'HP'", as the saying goes.

When I first started to come out of my own denial, I read "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie. It was really eye opening, and showed me that I'm powerless over others but have all the potential in the world to change my course. I am a work in progress, but so long as I am working, I know there is hope. I think many of us have gone long thinking that we don't have the same worth as our partners but that is not the case. Standing up for myself as a newbie, however? Easier said that done... hopefully the right words will come to be, backed by the right intentions...

I appreciate your insight!

WOW!! KAte, I see a success story in the making with you.....You have that deep understanding of things...a quiet, sort of, yet strong sense of accepting what is real and not trying to sugar coat it or twist it to what you "hope" it to be........you're gonna do great, give yourself the love and time and effort and you will live a much happier , healthier life, whether you stay or leave the relationship, you will be so strong it won't matter....some folks stay...some leave....I left because I was done with the drama, chaos and BS....to me??? if a relationship takes "THAT MUCH" detachment and more detachment, its too high maintenance to me, even tho I am detaching, it is still "there" ..the drama and BS is still in my face, even tho I am practicing detachment... I think a lot is made of detachment...one will never get so "detached" to the point that it does not affect them still.....even the best "detachers" you still HEAR...SMELL...SEE the negativity.....however, I gotta admit, I know folks who stick it through and they find a way to be happy in the process...I say "good on them" if that is what they want and they can do it, my hat goes off to them........

and no , he is not gonna understand your feelings because the disease has messed up his mind and thinking et al....they (alcoholics) are really good at denial and I am glad you read Beattie...she is the best...I really got a lot out of her 12 steps for CoDa's and the "Coda no more" I "cut my teeth" on Melodie Beattie....and yes, you do have the potential to change your course...and you CAN , here in Al-anon....and you BET there is hope for you....Keep focusing on you...Let him learn his own lessons.....take care of you....love you...prioritize YOU....it feels good when you start getting the hang of it....trust me..I put everyone b4 me until I got a belly full of being last or non existent and decided "OK....MY TURN"......you keep standing up for you.......PRACTICE remember!!! good baseball players are good because they PRACTICE....... we can "play ball" just as well, with PRACTICING the good things we learn....thats how ya make it a habit...........sending you BIG hugs of support.............

Thank you for your kindness! There is a chance for growth every day <3