I had to send a letter to my AH's family yesterday. Even though my husband is dry for now, he has not really done anything about his responsibilities. Long story long, almost a month ago my AH was fired from his job. According to him, it was after he went to his boss to say he needed help for his drinking. They offered him 3 days of substance abuse counseling but still fired him b/c he blew above the accepted level - actually, I think they have a zero tolerance b/c he drives a company truck.
Anyway, after 5 days of binge drinking, me begging him to get help, etc. I called his adult nephew in to help. I also told my AH, "You can choose to get help & leave now for treatment, leave and do what you want, or if you do not leave, Kid and I will leave by the end of the month, I can no longer live this life."
Fast forward to present time. AH basically spent the month laying around the house and eventually dried out b/c he no longer has any money and I sleep with my wallet. Nephew got a center to accept him IF he has MediCal AND gets meds for anxiety/depression/ PTSD. His family offered to pay for the doctor's visit so that meds could be obtained and perhaps get him on disability. I helped him fill out his online MediCal application since he asked and couldn't seem to figure it out - anything to get him out! But the ONLY thing he has done is fill out the form.
As for my part, I have kept my meetings, tried to deal with him in a kind way, and discussed the whole move topic with my son. He's fully on board, BTW. My husband's nephew practically begged me to not bring up leaving/moving out again, as he felt my husband's hold on sobriety/reality was tenuous at best, and I agreed. But NOTHING HAS CHANGED... except being dry. So I have begun moving forward, trying to figure out the logistics of getting out of the house by Sept 30 (my parents are paying Sept's rent). There is stuff to take, stuff to store & pets to manage. I felt that I would need to get going on this, so I sent his family a letter explaining where my AH's head is at right now, how he's acting (or not responding) and that when I start packing up, things may get difficult, so if they can do anything to expedite getting him into rehab, now would be the time. I kind of feel like they were believing his lies, and were just sitting back waiting to see if he would do what was needed.
Thankfully, his older sister is very practical and is really on my side, so she's trying to mobilize his family. They feel they need to all sit down with him and give him a reality check... with me there. My parents feel like I told him what was going to happen, so I don't need to be there... I am doing what I said I was going to do.
Just wanted some feedback, as my once strong resolve is feeling kind of weaker now that I am faced with moving/selling/storing 29 years of married life, 15 years at this present house.
Thank you for listening!
PNP
Bo said
Aug 22, 2017
PNP, I hear you and I feel for you. I went through the same thing -- 15 years of a home, home life, etc. -- and every single day, my fortitude, attitude, and more, was tested. I had to call my sponsor every single day and have him "help me" and "prop me up" because I was feeling that I was getting weaker, and starting to cave in. I had to lean on and rely on him, friends from the program, and my family. I had to mind my own business -- completely.
My sponsor and my friends in program felt that I needed to do what I needed to do -- and stand in my truth and my actions -- I didn't tell her what she needed to do, but I told her what I needed to do, the timeframes involved, and what it would mean to her/us living in the house, leaving the house, etc. If she ended up not having a place to go/to live, it was not going to be my fault, and I couldn't be blamed. She tried, but I did not buy into it. Not at all.
I didn't fill out the papers. She was able to. She said she couldn't. I wasn't refusing to punish her. And, I wasn't being cold. I got the forms. I answered some of the questions for her -- but I couldn't do it all for her. When her family begged me not to tell her, and not to keep bringing up the move -- I told them that I had to be honest with her and tell her what I needed to do, and what my obligations were, so that the house could be vacated, empty, etc., within the proper timeframe. They told me if I kept bringing it up -- she would no doubt drink, go off the deep end, and perhaps attempt suicide. They asked me how could I cause that and live with myself. I told them I would not lie to her, keep any secrets from her, and I would politely remind her and explain again to her about the deadlines and that the house needed to be emptied, vacated and that we each had to move. She knew she wasn't coming with me.
In your situation -- he has had a month. One month. He's done very little right? So his old problem...will it become your new one? He has his nephew. His family. They can help him. They can do for him, what he can't do for himself, if they choose to. It sounds a little like all of them want you to take this on and continue to "rescue" him moving forward. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
You are doing great -- your meetings, being kind, and how you contacted his family. You did all you could, except if you want to take over ownership for his solutions and his drinking. He needs to get to the doctor, get meds, get on MediCal, etc. -- and now is the time. He has to want to do it -- and if he doesn't -- it is on him. His family has to decide what role they want to play -- as you know your role. Keep it up!
mamalioness said
Aug 22, 2017
I agree with Bo...Its always "our fault" "our responsibility" for the alcoholics "downfall' that THEY bring on themselves...when I gave my A the ultimatum....on this date we BOTH get into AA-Al-anon or we are done......he called my bluff....he refused to get help...I packed up his stuff as house was in MY name and I sent him to his ship (he was in navy) i was done...he threatened suicide...I stood my ground...Said I did't want him to die, but that was Not "on me" but on him if he harms himself...I was done...the talking, pleading, reasoning, encouraging him to be sober was OVER!!! I had hit my emotional and mental WALL!!! I wanted recovery and a better life...I was in a different place then he was....I was headed in a different direction then he.....we were done!!! my path was to be one of sobriety, sanity, serenity, chaos free........yes, it sucked being alone, but it was peaceful...no chaos...no more listening to him at night yelling at the TV or cooking and making me worry about another kitchen appliance catching fire....it was OVER....i had to stand to my word...walk and live my truth.......your AH has had a month...what has he done??? what changes has he offered up to maybe show hes changed???? Nothing...Seems family is wanting you to keep up enabling and caring for someone who is an adult and can be doing that for himself.....how long is your prison sentence to be???? if his family wants to step in and take care of him?? that is their right....it is YOUR right to seek a better life......Seems AH has had his chances...over and over and over again.....how many more years do you lose to him and his disease ???? I would up my meetings....let the chips fall where they may...You did your best and he dind't hold up his end of the deal......there comes a time when we have to just cut our losses...move on...take the lessons we learned....start anew, wiser and better equipped to start a new and better life......You didn't sign up as his babysitter or care giver for self inflicted illness....you signed up to be his wife and EQUAL partner.....Oh someone might toss that "better or worse" crap at you, but don't buy into it.....the "better and for worse" is NOT meaning self inflicted , slow suicide, that brings down any one who is in his path of destruction....Our obligations END when THEY refuse to help themselves when they are able to help themselves........stick to your truth....YOU need YOU....You did all you could.....HIS life is on HIM to save......You did your best.....sending you PEACE and STRENGTH energy...........
Lyne said
Aug 22, 2017
If only the A would get the help he/she needs....but since we cannot control them, and Lord knows I tried, my only choice is taking care of myself. And at first I felt almost selfish. It's taken me a long time to detach with like/love. In the beginning, I was just detached with a concrete wall. Before alanon I went through talking, begging, crying, angry, etc. It was like talking to a tree. Nothing penetrated. When my A would say how much she loved me, I would say things like, really? And also, you have a strange way of showing it. Because alcohol and drinking buddies were her priority.
Fast forward 4 years in alanon and I have bought my own place to live, she is now getting some really good help and there could be hope for our future. Since there is no trust I really have to take ODAT. So I would suggest you do for yourself what you are doing-enlist help from his family, and work on a safe place for you and your child. MIP is always here for you, Lyne
Bo said
Aug 22, 2017
Excellent point. If only. And couple that with "I really want" or "I would like" or "I just want" -- and there is our sickness. I was accused -- by the alcoholic, and then the entire family -- of being selfish. Not because of what I didn't do! It was because I didn't do what they wanted and if I didn't then they would have to -- and they didn't want to do it! There is the vicious irony and sickness that runs throughout all of the people involved.
Much of this may sound and feel counter-intuitive. It certainly was counter-intuitive to everything that I had been doing for years, before I got into the program and started getting better and getting healthy.
Iamhere said
Aug 22, 2017
PnP - sending you thoughts and prayers - love your forward progress. For me, when I make boundaries, I modify only after a discussion with my sponsor and my HP. I am so grateful that I only have to manage today and can consider tomorrow then. Projection for me gets my brain spinning and takes me away from what's important, just for today.
Keep working on you and your plan.
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 22, 2017
Thank you, Bo, Mama & Lyne!
It is your ESH that keeps me on the right path for me!
I know in the next few days there will be conversations. His family are trying to get themselves organized (b/c everyone was fed a different lie by AH & discussed different things with him) and a sit down will happen. He has to face reality. I don't really want to be there, my parents think I have said my intentions and doing things towards those intentions, I shouldn't have to be there, but I feel like I don't want him to feel like I am abandoning him... I am trying to do this in a semi-amicable way... if there is such a thing. I've pretty much decided that I could go off in a huff, but really, having all that negative emotions will just jeopardize my peace of mind. At the same time, I don't want to be sucked into this drama either. Because I am beginning to feel like his family thinks he's MY responsibility. Quite frankly, I don't care if we are married... I don't WANT to be responsible for him.
Does that make me a bad person, or is it a strong person b/c I am finally looking out for ME? A fine line, I guess.
What's the sh*ts, is that today is my son's 17 birthday... geez, Happy Birthday son! Oh well. Perhaps the best gift I can give him is to stay strong in my truth and NOT be coerced into taking AH back. Hmmmmm, something to ponder.
Thank you everyone!
Bo said
Aug 22, 2017
That was one thing I found soooooo frustrating -- the alcoholic telling different stories/lies/etc. to the family, so that the family prepared and was under certain impressions, when that really wasn't the case. I remember my AW telling her family very clearly -- this is what needed to be done, this is how we need to prepare, etc. Her family reacted accordingly, got paperwork together, contacted insurance, etc. Everyone did everything they were supposed to. Then when the moment came -- there were two other things that were required, which were NOT done. Everyone started yelling and screaming, the insurance company did this wrong, the rehab did that wrong, and so on. So, she couldn't go!!! It turns out that all of the paperwork she received said very clearly that requirements A and B had to be completed before approval and check-in. My AW did not show or share that paperwork with her family. She merely "told" them what she was told, showed them notes that she took, etc. She never showed the actual paperwork. When all was said and done -- it is my opinion, just my opinion -- that my AW did not want to go to rehab. She had said that all along and then only agreed to go because everyone gave her no choice. Thus, she didn't do what she had to do and didn't let her family do it either. Simply sabotage and then deflect and blame the insurance company and the rehab place, and everyone else. I've seen this far too many times.
She kept drinking. In secret. She didn't want to go to rehab because she knew I would proceed with leaving the house, moving, and she was very fearful that would lead to me filing for divorce. Doesn't matter what she was thinking. I put her mind at ease -- and it did NOT matter.
I said countless times -- she has to face reality. Unfortunately, the fact is, she didn't. I did not go to the sit down with her family. My choice. Not theirs. They wanted me to go, but I chose not to. I had already done too much and it was time for me to mind my own business. My position was -- if she wants it, she'll go get it. She has to do this on her own. She was not begging for rehab or help, so anything I did was forcing what I want. She asked for help in her insincere and half-efforts with the paperwork -- but I wouldn't participate at all. I didn't want anything or any involvement. If it worked, it was because of her and because she wanted it. If it didn't -- it was on her and she didn't do what she was supposed to. That makes a statement to me. That is my proof -- for me -- that she does not want to get better. She wanted things to continue the way they were. My position...NO. Not an option. I can assure you of one thing -- I did what I did, in a healthy and supportive way, and I did not feel any, even the slightest measurable amount, that I was abandoning her. NOT AT ALL.
My AW's family wanted me to do it. They wanted it to be my responsibility. They felt that if they could get and keep me in it -- I wouldn't leave her, I wouldn't move out, etc. They wanted us to stay together -- so they wanted to keep me in it and tied into all that was going on. Bottom line -- I DID NOT feel like a bad person. I DID NOT feel like I was abandoning her at all. I did not feel like I did anything wrong. I checked with my sponsor, daily, multiple times a day. I got objectivity at every turn. I made sure I was doing the next right thing in front of me, for me, at every juncture. I did not let what other people judged become my reality. I set my own standard, with the help of healthy friends from program, as to what enabling was, how detaching should be, and what my role should and shouldn't be.
In the end...my AW had to bear the consequences -- both positive and negative -- of her own decisions, actions, lack of, and so on.
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 22, 2017
Iamhere - good point... I guess I am projecting a little. But sitting and waiting is hard for me when I know there is so much that needs to be accomplished! It is beginning to feel overwhelming though... so if I take your ESH, and begin thinking of what do I need to do JUST FOR TODAY, then perhaps this move won't seem insurmountable.
One good thing, it will force me to get rid of a lot of stuff I hate having around because my AH just can't bear to part with it! LOL!
Funny thing, after my email to the family, his older sister responded (to all) right away about what her opinion was, and that a "sit-down" has to occur now, and to please respond so that everyone involved was on the 'same page.' So far, no one has responded to that!! I find that weird. But, it may be as Bo says (and my father as well) - "At some point, his family is going to look at you like your the 'enemy,' because you are not doing the helping, and now they have to deal with him." I hope that is not the case.
I did not Cause this, I cannot Control him, and I certainly cannot be the Cure!
Peace
milkwood said
Aug 22, 2017
PnP ((((hugs))))
When I left my husband for a while it felt so difficult, I thought that I was being cruel and 'a bad person' and I guess that in order to do it I had to toughen up a lot. But one thing that surprised me was when a couple of weeks later my husband told me he was proud of what I did , he knew that leaving was the right thing even though he hated it.
Keep taking care of you, HP has the rest.
Bo said
Aug 22, 2017
I was going to go on to talk about the impact all of this had on me. I remember my sponsor constantly talking to me about and getting me to focus on the very next, one, thing in front of me. Laundry, paperwork, a phone call, making the bed, doesn't matter. I focused, with a laser precision focus on the very next one thing in front of me. That helped me not get distracted, think about what SHE or others had to do, and it forced me into doing what I NEEDED to do, for me, for my health, well being, etc.
I was strong enough at this point so that her family's accusations, snide or sarcastic remarks, or their judging -- that didn't sway me. That didn't get me to cave in. I had my boundaries, my pressure points for when I would detach, not contribute, not play a role, etc. --and I stood by them. When that point would come -- I would do what I needed to do. In the short-term it wasn't easy. But it didn't last for as long as I thought. Also, all of the things they feared, all of the things they were worried about -- her going off the deep end, not going to rehab because I was leaving anyway, even suicide -- all of those things ended up being ammunition for them to keep trying to get me to do what they wanted me to do and what they didn't want to do themselves!!!
Each family member wanted her to live with me after rehab. Not sober living, not a step down, and certainly not with them. Each family member wanted me to bring her, go to family day, pick her up, talk to the doctors, etc. -- they didn't want to do it. They felt if they got me to do it, then it would keep the marriage together and I would be there for her...and they wouldn't have to take back a 45 year old, dysfunctional, unhealthy, addict/alcoholic, who they deep down inside knew they couldn't help and who didn't want to get better.
Listen, that was my experience. That was my perspective. I've been down this road with her countless times, with other family members, and with dozens and dozens of clients, family members, etc. Each case is different. But, you can see patterns. For me -- and this is just me -- at a certain point, and it will come, it will become very clear, without any question whatsoever...does the alcoholic/addict want to get better or do they not want to get better. It is one or the other. Every story, excuse, situation, truth, lie, deflection, misunderstand, vagueness, ambiguity, fact, clarity, and so on....every single one of them, comes under one of those two categories. I have found if they want to get better, they want to get better period. Period. No discussion. If they want to do it later, next month, after it is not so busy at work, after a court case, do it their way, in their time, the way they know will work, and so on and so on and so on...I don't think that is a person who wants to get better period. They want what they want, their way. So be it. Their decision.
I look at me, and what I need to do to be and stay healthy. I look at living my life the right way and doing the right thing. I look at how I can be happy and healthy and make quality, sound, healthy and good decisions. I look at compassion. I am fortunate that is has always been innate and automatic. I thank my parents for that.
Take what you like and leave the rest. Keep coming back and hang in PNP. You are doing what is best for you, and I admire and respect the work you are doing on yourself and the decisions you've made. All the best.
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 23, 2017
Well, I knew this was going too smooth. After reading his family's texts all day about who talked to AH and what he told them, I went home from work. AH said that he had an appointment with social services on Thursday. Knowing that he lies, I asked for his paperwork so I could see the time. "Oh, I don't have any, I got the appointment over the phone." OK. Mind you, last week when I tried contacting them, I had to phone constantly for two days before I got someone on the line. And she told me, I can't help you with that, but you can just go into the center... you don't have to have an appointment. So was my AH honest with his family? Maybe. It's always possible. So I let it go.
So I advised him that when he gets there to make sure and tell the worker that his Medi-CAl should be a "rush" situation. He asked me why?
I then explained the situation with the rent, how much time we have in the house, and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out. He was shocked. Like he had never heard it before. I just don't understand it. But then again, I don't have to. LOL! But I had to reiterate why I want to separate, and I made sure to keep it to it being all about me. What I needed, that I needed to work on myself, and I had hoped he would also want to work on his demons that cause him to self-medicate.
He cried and said he didn't want me to move out. I told him I understood, but it was something that needed to be done. Even if I didn't feel the need to live separately, neither of us can afford the rent on our own. After the crying, he got very quiet and then I could tell he was angry. But I couldn't tell if he was angry at me, himself, or at the situation.
I think it's going to be a weird night.
I don't know why I thought this could be somewhat civilized. I mean, he knows he needs help. Does he think I would continue being treated like a doormat forever?
Denial is a strong entity.
Mattie said
Aug 23, 2017
The fact that he wasn't getting off his hind end to make things happen suggests that he did think you would just wait around forever. In my experience, they wait for years and years and years to do anything about their situation. And then when we are at our very last ounce of patience, they say, "Oh, okay! I'll get better then! I'll go into recovery! You should have told me sooner!" (Ignoring the years in which our pain was very clear.) And because they don't do this until we're on the very real brink of leaving, they then act real surprised and offended. "Why can't you even give me a chance?! I can't believe you're walking out on me like this! When I'm doing everything you want! And you're just abandoning me!"
I've seen this over and over, and done it over and over. I notice that when we believe them and stay so we're not "walking out on them," the recovery all of a sudden slows down bigtime. And soon it's the same old merry-go-round. Because once we're back in place, they see no need to do anything differently.
My thought is now that if they are insisting they'll pursue recovery, then there's plenty of time to get back together. Like maybe in two years, when their recovery is strong and it's clear they're serious and working hard. Or five years. No hurry.
You write "At some point, his family is going to look at you like your the 'enemy,' because you are not doing the helping, and now they have to deal with him." If that happens, I think they very soon will find out exactly what it feels like to be trying to help someone who's living in chaos and insanity. And very soon they will understand exactly why you left.
gratefulforafuture said
Aug 23, 2017
Hi Posiesandpuppies,
I was where you are this past June. I sat on the decision to leave because of a lot of fear about doing the right thing. Probably too long because my 15-year old daughter was suffering in an unhappy household. I don't know if this helps but I just kept picturing that light at the end of the tunnel. For me, it was a safe, calm household where there was love and kindness. That is what I have now and I am not looking back. I still have to fight my fears, my enabling, and my tendency to want to be perceived as the savior. So there are daily challenges. But more importantly, every day offers hope and moments of joy.
Best wishes to you. I hope you will let us know how you are doing.
Iamhere said
Aug 23, 2017
(((PnP))) - you are so right - denial is huge - I wonder at times if it's possible to even deny that one is in denial? I applaud you saying what you mean, meaning what you say and not saying it mean. There is no way to know what he's thinking, feeling, planning or wanting - which is why we try as best we can to focus on self.
When I was in active alcoholism, I never did what I did to hurt another. Quite frankly, I never gave anyone else another thought. I did what I did (deception, denial, selfishness, self-serving, manipulation, etc.) to get what I wanted. I never ever considered nor cared how my actions were affecting others. I only 'owned my stuff' when I got caught up in it. It was normal and natural to lie, cheat, steal, drink, etc.
The best gift of this program and recovery is I get to decide when I want to get off the merry-go-round. Because my AH and I share kids, I can also decide when/if to get back on. He and my boys are not bad people, they are sick people. That will never keep me from treating them with kindness, respect and love. It's just who I am and one of the gifts this program has given me.
That does not mean I sit around and sing kumbaya with them. I still do eyerolls and I still wonder at times what is going on in their minds. Yet, I can give them over to God, treat them kindly and pray for them and the disease that controls them. Beyond that, I can get bitter really quickly if I am not careful about my focus and attitude.
You are doing great. Keep doing you, one day at a time and do all that you can to trust the process. Sending you tons of (((hugs))), positive thoughts and prayers!
Bo said
Aug 23, 2017
High hopes and low expectations...I can't tell you how many times I've heard that in meetings, and for me it worked! Part of my struggle, was the constant disappointment --
and pain -- that kept happening over and over and over again. Now, I completely understand -- my wife was doing what she was doing. She was just doing what she was doing. That's what alcoholics do. Period. The real problem -- yes, we all know it -- was me! I kept expecting, hoping, and yes I wanted -- her to want to get better!
Anyway, more to the point, you are doing all the right things for you, all the healthy things for you -- and that's great! I very much like that you kept it in the "I" -- and I am not surprised, actually I expected, him to react as if he never heard this before. Been there done that had a cup of coffee and went home...to my new home! LOL. But, I expected the never heard this before, first time, completely shocked, from him just based upon your ongoing updates. I like that you let it go, until you didn't -- and then you handled what needed to be handled, in such a healthy, compassionate and caring way. I so admire and respect you and what you are doing and how you are doing it. Thank you so much for posting this.
As far as the anger -- one thing that jumped out at me -- when you referenced "...and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out." Could that have been the catalyst for some anger on his part? Perhaps a shift in his feelings? Something? Anything? Because the truth is -- he did hear it before. From you, from his family. That was all his denial, but the reality if often never a reality with the alcoholic. That is part of the disease -- their disease. You are right -- you don't understand AND YOU don't have to. You are so right.
So, I have a question -- how did you feel about having to reiterate why you want to separate? Even though you kept it all about you -- did you feel that was "getting into it" again? Did you feel you were getting into a back and forth? Or was it simply you just re-stating, reiterating, etc.? That's been a struggle for me -- and sometimes there is a fine line between reiterating my feelings, keeping it in the I, etc., and getting into it all over again, and getting caught up in the back and forth with the alcoholic. The former, I wish was not necessary -- and the latter is very unhealthy for me. So, the former -- it was necessary here for you? Were you uncomfortable getting back into that discussion with him? Did you feel it was regression at all? I am asking because this is something I constantly struggle with, and I have trouble sometimes distinguishing between the two. My emotions supercede my intellect.
I also have felt a little like straddling a fine line when I say, infer, or even feel -- that I hoped my AW would also want to work on her issues, demons, etc., or even just work on herself. From my perspective, when it has become clear to me that my AW did not want to get better -- despite all the talk, promises, inauthentic efforts, half-hearted efforts, self-sabotaged efforts, etc. -- if she did not want to get better, then me saying "I hope" almost feels like I am giving an opinion when not asked for one. I struggle with this one. I certainly will not "force my will" -- but I try to be very careful what I say about my hopes, expectations, opinions, advice, etc, as it relates to the alcoholic and their decision to get better or not.
One thing you mentioned -- which I think is very insightful and very interesting -- the anger. In my experience, there have been countless times where I've witnessed the alcoholic get angry -- and initially, I could never tell if they were angry at me, themselves, the situation, someone else, etc. What I've found -- when looking at this disease, and all of my experience, and I do not mean to stereotype or generalize, however, I've found that often the alcoholic, for a glimpse, for a moment, is sometimes angry at themselves. Just for a moment, and that is a trigger. The moment it happens -- then they have to lash out, blame, etc. It is their only release. They certainly can't look at the reality and blame themselves, be angry at themselves, take ownership, etc. -- if they did, that might be the point where they want to get better. That might be the rock bottom they need. Who knows. However, I found that whenever the alcoholic gets angry, it is so very common for them to lash out at someone, usually people closest to them (because they tend to get away with it, LOL), they tend to blame someone, anyone, everyone else -- except themselves. Blame, denial, whatever. It is part of the progressive, decimating, insidious, cunning, and baffling disease that we face.
I think it's going to be a weird night.
Even when my AW, and other alcoholics/addicts I have known -- even when they know, truly know, they need help...it still doesn't mean they are truly ready and want it. It is sad.
Thank you so much again for posting all of this PNP. Focus on YOU. I admire and respect you and all that you are doing.
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 23, 2017
Mattie, thank you for sharing your ESH... as I am trying to say what I mean and not say it mean, oddly, I am finding it harder to have a "hard line" with him. So seeing his lies (replies) in your post helps keep me focused on what I need to do for myself.
gratefulforafuture - thank you for providing me with hope that what I seek will eventually be the outcome!
Iamhere - thank you for the support... I have actually seen my AH deny that he is in denial, so yea, it's possible! LOL! I read your posts daily, as you give me strength. Thank you!
Bo - I will reply to you later, must go to work. Thank you for your support... just the fact that someone has admiration for the way I am facing my hard "stuff" is just the boost I needed today!
maryjane said
Aug 23, 2017
P and P, Thank you for starting this thread. It is so valuable for you to state your situation and emotions. It really brings me back to the "BAD OLD DAYS" when I was living in the middle of it and my emotions were just like yours.
And thank you Bo, for your responses and this last thread about anger. It reminded me that what helped me to get through the AH's anger was to remind myself of the mental illness component of this disease. It kept my expectations down.
AlAnon teachings and all my AlAnon friends kept reminding me to keep the focus on what was good for me and good for the kids. It all helped me.
Thank you.
YARNCRAZY said
Aug 23, 2017
after i had left exah and moved elsewhere, a few days later i called his sister and nephew that i had burried a house key in front of this statue and if they wanted to save their family member,they better go because he is dying...after that his sister handled his affairs etc.
mamalioness said
Aug 23, 2017
P and P, I love this thread you started..and AS i read YOUR posts, I see growing Insight...you're gonna shine...and one day you will be helping other spouses of alcoholics find their way.....SO impressed with you......JUST saying
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 24, 2017
Thank you, mamalioness.... b/c it is hard to see it when you are in the midst of crazytown!
marijane - your words meant a great deal to me today. AH is telling his family he will NEVER move from this house (even though it is a rental), and they are trying to get him moving on getting MediCal or disability or both to seek treatment... and I feel caught in the middle. I just come here and read and keep the focus on myself. Your post helped me today.
Bo - As to your questions; I was initially angry about having to rehash my intentions. So I dragged my feet a couple days. But I thought about the anger, and I realized I was angry because I didn't want to face the possible reactions (sadness, anger) of my AH. So I had to put my "big girl panties on" so to speak. As it turned out, there wasn't a huge back and forth. Just a restating, and a gentle reminder of reality, regardless of where me and Kid were going. I felt proud of myself for that. But I DID feel uncomfortable with the whole exchange. I think that it probably wasn't a huge discussion b/c AH has been dry now for almost 2 weeks. He is still not thinking perfectly, but certainly more clearly!
Now for the other issue - saying that I "hope" he would seek treatment... I understand your thought process on this, and it would be a huge trigger if I had any hope for our marriage. But I don't. He burned me out. I have nothing more to give to it. Remember, this is his second round of addiction merry-go-round, and so my second ride as well. So I really do hope that he seeks treatment FOR HIMSELF. Because he was a great guy...and he deserves to be able to live in his own skin without self-medication.
What you said about the anger is very insightful for me. I think that is where QTIP is the best slogan! It is interesting, when I had to have this rehash, he told me "Getting fired WAS my bottom!" But yet, he is still fighting his family in regards to going to treatment... deflecting, lying, putting things off. So I think that really wasn't his bottom. He still has some odd idea that he is going to use his 401K money from his lost job to pay for months of rent, probably get another job, and the merry-go-round will keep spinning.
As always, thank you MIP family for giving me strength!
mamalioness said
Aug 24, 2017
sure, I can "hope" that my A brother will get help and reach out for sobriety, but I have zero expectations....I can "hope" that a lot of things happen, but if they are out of MY control, I try to keep expectations low or at least realistic per the evidence I see.....I still see it as "ok" to have "hope" but I place that hope in more realistic venues.........and I do "get it" when you say "it would be a huge trigger if I had any hope for our marriage" one CAN go to the well, one time too many and the other just "gives out" "dries up" like I did with my Ex's....I was burned out...done....I wanted to be in a better place...they did not....we were not a match.....period!!!! so what was I do do??? I assessed....ascertained what was best for me and I went for it......there isn't any right or wrong in this, it is , to me, "ok..what can I live *ok* with and what can i NOT live *ok* with???" and I made my actions from that place..........your post shows a lot of growing wisdom and facing reality.....facing reality and accepting it AFTER the feelings of hurt, anger, sadness are felt and dealt with is a sign that you are walking on a road that means healthy self care and wishing him the best, but you gotta write your own life song now as he has to write his and sometimes we see that our life songs just are not a match...........HUGS of support
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 25, 2017
Thanks, Mama!
PosiesandPuppies said
Aug 28, 2017
An Update: I have been away from my computer for a few days now. After an exhausting week, I came home from my son's band performance (football game) to find AH was still up and watching TV. He wanted to talk about his visit to DPSS. I guess his mom came and took him for his appointment. I guess b/c he filled the online form with the same address as I did, MY application was delayed (serious eye-roll here). I told him the day I had my appointment (almost 2 weeks ago) to please make sure and NOT put the same address. Put the rehab address, a family members address anything but this one, or my and his son's application may be denied. Well, I guess they got it all fixed, and the worker told him everyone's applications should move forward now. Whew! He then began talking about taking his 401K money from his last job (~$9,000) and he was going to use it to pay rent for a few months to give us some breathing room. I explained that this wasn't a good idea, b/c he really doesn't know what will be required after rehab (sober-house living etc), and he may need some money to get out there on his own. What? What do you mean? he asked. "Are you asking me for a divorce?" "No, I have never said, "divorce," but I told you I thought I needed to be separated from all this and son and I were moving out. His first reaction was anger... I could see it on his face. But then he broke down crying. It was all the emotions I didn't want to feel/experience. He ran to the bathroom and stayed in there crying. I told him I had to go walk the dog... I walked, and walked! I KNEW THAT THIS WAS THE NEXT RIGHT THING! Yet, I began to have doubts b/c I felt so bad for making him feel this sad. I couldn't get a hold of my sponsor, so I just kept walking! I called my brother, my mother, and finally my sponsor called me back and was actually on her way to meet me. She found me in my neighborhood, not far from my house in hysterics. Luckily she was able to calm me down and talk some sense into me. She helped me formulate the words I needed to say to him, and helped me make a list of things to "grab and go." She also waited in her car outside my home to make sure I was OK. Eventually I was able to grab stuff for me, son and the dog and get it all in the car. We did have another discussion outside on the front lawn and I just told him that I am just sorry that this is the way it is, but living with this disease for so long has left me empty... I have nothing more to give, and to please respect me enough to let me have a few days away to get a handle on my emotions. Because our son needs a stable parent, and right now I feel like I am having an emotional breakdown. He said he understood.
So my son and I have spent the weekend at my parent's house (who are out of town) and we worked our butts off cleaning the tiny house on my parents' property. We feel a great sense of accomplishment as well as hope for a peaceful future! I did ask one of his family members to do a welfare check on AH... he was fine. His nephew told me he seemed like he didn't really "get" that we were out for the weekend, but eventually the nephew said he began to see why this was needed. He told the nephew that I seemed to "have it all together, and didn't realize the extent of my pain." I told nephew that was probably true b/c Kid needs to have at least one parent who is stable, but I am at the end of my emotional tether!!! AH did call me later that night and told me he never meant to hurt me, and he doesn't want me to feel like he will always be making me feel guilty about leaving. If I need to get stuff, feel free to come and get it, he will help (If I need it), or take a walk so that he will be out of the house. Even though my sponsor feels I should've stayed "moved out," by Sunday night, my son and I were itching to get back... our work was done & we had nothing but some clothes in the new house. We both needed stuff to get ready for the upcoming week. So we went back to the house tonight.
All seems "OK" considering what happened this weekend, and now my focus will be on getting stuff moved over, and other stuff packed up for storage. I did send his sister a text just kind of reminding them that my goal was to be out by the 30th of Sept., and they may need to start getting packing boxes etc. just in case he is not capable of packing his stuff. I know their focus is getting him into rehab, but in a few days it will be a month! They are kind of just sitting on their duffs waiting for him to do it all. I just wanted to make it clear gently, that I was not going to be "in charge" of his stuff.
Anyway, thank you to all my MIP family who in one way or another gave me the strength to take this leap of faith! Keep me in your thoughts as my son and I move through the month and try and put 29 years of stuff in boxes.
Peace!
Bo said
Aug 28, 2017
As I read your post -- I am saying, yes, that's what happened to me. I was focused on me and what I had to do, what was best, healthy for me. And my AW was doing little to nothing -- on going to rehab, which she agreed, but then fought, on packing and moving, discussions as far as options with her family, etc. She wanted to know where she was moving and what she was doing. Her family tried to explain that depending on how rehab went, she might stay longer, go to outpatient, go to sober living, who knows. She wanted to know! She couldn't understand why this was happening. In her mind the only known option was for her to "come live with me" -- because everything else was an unknown. She was angry, crying, sad, desperate, and accused me of some underhanded way of leaving her permanently, covertly filing for divorce, and so on.
When she kept asking me why, what did this mean, and so on -- I made sure I didn't get back into it with her. But, I was kind and very compassionate. I wanted to be there for her, but in a healthy and compassionate way. I would be there for her but would not be her partner in the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc. I would not be her partner in the disease or anything that came from that disease. When I got out for that first day or so, moving some stuff, etc. -- I needed to get space and distance. I needed to detach both emotionally and physically. So as much as I was itching...I stayed out another two days. I brought some clothes, but had to do laundry at my parents. LOL.
I had to remind her parents about the packing, time-frame, storage, etc. I explained the house had to be empty -- empty, empty, empty -- by such and such a date. The consequences if it didn't happen would all fall on her (my AW), but her family would have to deal with it. Everyone's focus was getting her into rehab. But having dealt with this for many years -- I realized how unprepared they were. Wow. They were trying to be logical, trying to make sense to her and with her, trying to rationalize with her, they expected normal and healthy behavior from her. What was shocking is when she lied to them or manipulated a situation, they didn't realize what happened. She danced, deflected, blamed it on miscommunication or misunderstanding -- and they just didn't see it. They caught her in so many lies and their denial was so deep, they just couldn't see it. They didn't want to. That was them wanting to avoid pain.
Anyway...keep focusing on YOU. Keep up the great work! You are an inspiration to those who have been there and those who are currently there. I admire and respect what you are doing and how you are doing it. Keep it up!!!
Iamhere said
Aug 28, 2017
Hey PnP - great update.....just keep doing you! I truly appreciate you sharing about your weekend journey, how you used recovery and the value of a sponsor. She sounds like a great support person for you - made me smile to see recovery in action.
I am reminded by your share how HP does do for us what we need when we need it. I love that you + Kid were able to work together for the next chapter of your journey. I love that you are doing 'the next right thing' and trusting the process and your plan.
Just keep doing you and keep trusting....it's looking great on you! (((Hugs)))
Dear MIP Family,
I had to send a letter to my AH's family yesterday. Even though my husband is dry for now, he has not really done anything about his responsibilities. Long story long, almost a month ago my AH was fired from his job. According to him, it was after he went to his boss to say he needed help for his drinking. They offered him 3 days of substance abuse counseling but still fired him b/c he blew above the accepted level - actually, I think they have a zero tolerance b/c he drives a company truck.
Anyway, after 5 days of binge drinking, me begging him to get help, etc. I called his adult nephew in to help. I also told my AH, "You can choose to get help & leave now for treatment, leave and do what you want, or if you do not leave, Kid and I will leave by the end of the month, I can no longer live this life."
Fast forward to present time. AH basically spent the month laying around the house and eventually dried out b/c he no longer has any money and I sleep with my wallet. Nephew got a center to accept him IF he has MediCal AND gets meds for anxiety/depression/ PTSD. His family offered to pay for the doctor's visit so that meds could be obtained and perhaps get him on disability. I helped him fill out his online MediCal application since he asked and couldn't seem to figure it out - anything to get him out! But the ONLY thing he has done is fill out the form.
As for my part, I have kept my meetings, tried to deal with him in a kind way, and discussed the whole move topic with my son. He's fully on board, BTW. My husband's nephew practically begged me to not bring up leaving/moving out again, as he felt my husband's hold on sobriety/reality was tenuous at best, and I agreed. But NOTHING HAS CHANGED... except being dry. So I have begun moving forward, trying to figure out the logistics of getting out of the house by Sept 30 (my parents are paying Sept's rent). There is stuff to take, stuff to store & pets to manage. I felt that I would need to get going on this, so I sent his family a letter explaining where my AH's head is at right now, how he's acting (or not responding) and that when I start packing up, things may get difficult, so if they can do anything to expedite getting him into rehab, now would be the time. I kind of feel like they were believing his lies, and were just sitting back waiting to see if he would do what was needed.
Thankfully, his older sister is very practical and is really on my side, so she's trying to mobilize his family. They feel they need to all sit down with him and give him a reality check... with me there. My parents feel like I told him what was going to happen, so I don't need to be there... I am doing what I said I was going to do.
Just wanted some feedback, as my once strong resolve is feeling kind of weaker now that I am faced with moving/selling/storing 29 years of married life, 15 years at this present house.
Thank you for listening!
PNP
My sponsor and my friends in program felt that I needed to do what I needed to do -- and stand in my truth and my actions -- I didn't tell her what she needed to do, but I told her what I needed to do, the timeframes involved, and what it would mean to her/us living in the house, leaving the house, etc. If she ended up not having a place to go/to live, it was not going to be my fault, and I couldn't be blamed. She tried, but I did not buy into it. Not at all.
I didn't fill out the papers. She was able to. She said she couldn't. I wasn't refusing to punish her. And, I wasn't being cold. I got the forms. I answered some of the questions for her -- but I couldn't do it all for her. When her family begged me not to tell her, and not to keep bringing up the move -- I told them that I had to be honest with her and tell her what I needed to do, and what my obligations were, so that the house could be vacated, empty, etc., within the proper timeframe. They told me if I kept bringing it up -- she would no doubt drink, go off the deep end, and perhaps attempt suicide. They asked me how could I cause that and live with myself. I told them I would not lie to her, keep any secrets from her, and I would politely remind her and explain again to her about the deadlines and that the house needed to be emptied, vacated and that we each had to move. She knew she wasn't coming with me.
In your situation -- he has had a month. One month. He's done very little right? So his old problem...will it become your new one? He has his nephew. His family. They can help him. They can do for him, what he can't do for himself, if they choose to. It sounds a little like all of them want you to take this on and continue to "rescue" him moving forward. Nothing changes if nothing changes.
You are doing great -- your meetings, being kind, and how you contacted his family. You did all you could, except if you want to take over ownership for his solutions and his drinking. He needs to get to the doctor, get meds, get on MediCal, etc. -- and now is the time. He has to want to do it -- and if he doesn't -- it is on him. His family has to decide what role they want to play -- as you know your role. Keep it up!
Fast forward 4 years in alanon and I have bought my own place to live, she is now getting some really good help and there could be hope for our future. Since there is no trust I really have to take ODAT. So I would suggest you do for yourself what you are doing-enlist help from his family, and work on a safe place for you and your child. MIP is always here for you, Lyne
Much of this may sound and feel counter-intuitive. It certainly was counter-intuitive to everything that I had been doing for years, before I got into the program and started getting better and getting healthy.
Keep working on you and your plan.
It is your ESH that keeps me on the right path for me!
I know in the next few days there will be conversations. His family are trying to get themselves organized (b/c everyone was fed a different lie by AH & discussed different things with him) and a sit down will happen. He has to face reality. I don't really want to be there, my parents think I have said my intentions and doing things towards those intentions, I shouldn't have to be there, but I feel like I don't want him to feel like I am abandoning him... I am trying to do this in a semi-amicable way... if there is such a thing. I've pretty much decided that I could go off in a huff, but really, having all that negative emotions will just jeopardize my peace of mind. At the same time, I don't want to be sucked into this drama either. Because I am beginning to feel like his family thinks he's MY responsibility. Quite frankly, I don't care if we are married... I don't WANT to be responsible for him.
Does that make me a bad person, or is it a strong person b/c I am finally looking out for ME? A fine line, I guess.
What's the sh*ts, is that today is my son's 17 birthday... geez, Happy Birthday son! Oh well. Perhaps the best gift I can give him is to stay strong in my truth and NOT be coerced into taking AH back. Hmmmmm, something to ponder.
Thank you everyone!
That was one thing I found soooooo frustrating -- the alcoholic telling different stories/lies/etc. to the family, so that the family prepared and was under certain impressions, when that really wasn't the case. I remember my AW telling her family very clearly -- this is what needed to be done, this is how we need to prepare, etc. Her family reacted accordingly, got paperwork together, contacted insurance, etc. Everyone did everything they were supposed to. Then when the moment came -- there were two other things that were required, which were NOT done. Everyone started yelling and screaming, the insurance company did this wrong, the rehab did that wrong, and so on. So, she couldn't go!!! It turns out that all of the paperwork she received said very clearly that requirements A and B had to be completed before approval and check-in. My AW did not show or share that paperwork with her family. She merely "told" them what she was told, showed them notes that she took, etc. She never showed the actual paperwork. When all was said and done -- it is my opinion, just my opinion -- that my AW did not want to go to rehab. She had said that all along and then only agreed to go because everyone gave her no choice. Thus, she didn't do what she had to do and didn't let her family do it either. Simply sabotage and then deflect and blame the insurance company and the rehab place, and everyone else. I've seen this far too many times.
She kept drinking. In secret. She didn't want to go to rehab because she knew I would proceed with leaving the house, moving, and she was very fearful that would lead to me filing for divorce. Doesn't matter what she was thinking. I put her mind at ease -- and it did NOT matter.
I said countless times -- she has to face reality. Unfortunately, the fact is, she didn't. I did not go to the sit down with her family. My choice. Not theirs. They wanted me to go, but I chose not to. I had already done too much and it was time for me to mind my own business. My position was -- if she wants it, she'll go get it. She has to do this on her own. She was not begging for rehab or help, so anything I did was forcing what I want. She asked for help in her insincere and half-efforts with the paperwork -- but I wouldn't participate at all. I didn't want anything or any involvement. If it worked, it was because of her and because she wanted it. If it didn't -- it was on her and she didn't do what she was supposed to. That makes a statement to me. That is my proof -- for me -- that she does not want to get better. She wanted things to continue the way they were. My position...NO. Not an option. I can assure you of one thing -- I did what I did, in a healthy and supportive way, and I did not feel any, even the slightest measurable amount, that I was abandoning her. NOT AT ALL.
My AW's family wanted me to do it. They wanted it to be my responsibility. They felt that if they could get and keep me in it -- I wouldn't leave her, I wouldn't move out, etc. They wanted us to stay together -- so they wanted to keep me in it and tied into all that was going on. Bottom line -- I DID NOT feel like a bad person. I DID NOT feel like I was abandoning her at all. I did not feel like I did anything wrong. I checked with my sponsor, daily, multiple times a day. I got objectivity at every turn. I made sure I was doing the next right thing in front of me, for me, at every juncture. I did not let what other people judged become my reality. I set my own standard, with the help of healthy friends from program, as to what enabling was, how detaching should be, and what my role should and shouldn't be.
In the end...my AW had to bear the consequences -- both positive and negative -- of her own decisions, actions, lack of, and so on.
One good thing, it will force me to get rid of a lot of stuff I hate having around because my AH just can't bear to part with it! LOL!
Funny thing, after my email to the family, his older sister responded (to all) right away about what her opinion was, and that a "sit-down" has to occur now, and to please respond so that everyone involved was on the 'same page.' So far, no one has responded to that!! I find that weird. But, it may be as Bo says (and my father as well) - "At some point, his family is going to look at you like your the 'enemy,' because you are not doing the helping, and now they have to deal with him." I hope that is not the case.
I did not Cause this, I cannot Control him, and I certainly cannot be the Cure!
Peace
When I left my husband for a while it felt so difficult, I thought that I was being cruel and 'a bad person' and I guess that in order to do it I had to toughen up a lot. But one thing that surprised me was when a couple of weeks later my husband told me he was proud of what I did , he knew that leaving was the right thing even though he hated it.
Keep taking care of you, HP has the rest.
I was strong enough at this point so that her family's accusations, snide or sarcastic remarks, or their judging -- that didn't sway me. That didn't get me to cave in. I had my boundaries, my pressure points for when I would detach, not contribute, not play a role, etc. --and I stood by them. When that point would come -- I would do what I needed to do. In the short-term it wasn't easy. But it didn't last for as long as I thought. Also, all of the things they feared, all of the things they were worried about -- her going off the deep end, not going to rehab because I was leaving anyway, even suicide -- all of those things ended up being ammunition for them to keep trying to get me to do what they wanted me to do and what they didn't want to do themselves!!!
Each family member wanted her to live with me after rehab. Not sober living, not a step down, and certainly not with them. Each family member wanted me to bring her, go to family day, pick her up, talk to the doctors, etc. -- they didn't want to do it. They felt if they got me to do it, then it would keep the marriage together and I would be there for her...and they wouldn't have to take back a 45 year old, dysfunctional, unhealthy, addict/alcoholic, who they deep down inside knew they couldn't help and who didn't want to get better.
Listen, that was my experience. That was my perspective. I've been down this road with her countless times, with other family members, and with dozens and dozens of clients, family members, etc. Each case is different. But, you can see patterns. For me -- and this is just me -- at a certain point, and it will come, it will become very clear, without any question whatsoever...does the alcoholic/addict want to get better or do they not want to get better. It is one or the other. Every story, excuse, situation, truth, lie, deflection, misunderstand, vagueness, ambiguity, fact, clarity, and so on....every single one of them, comes under one of those two categories. I have found if they want to get better, they want to get better period. Period. No discussion. If they want to do it later, next month, after it is not so busy at work, after a court case, do it their way, in their time, the way they know will work, and so on and so on and so on...I don't think that is a person who wants to get better period. They want what they want, their way. So be it. Their decision.
I look at me, and what I need to do to be and stay healthy. I look at living my life the right way and doing the right thing. I look at how I can be happy and healthy and make quality, sound, healthy and good decisions. I look at compassion. I am fortunate that is has always been innate and automatic. I thank my parents for that.
Take what you like and leave the rest. Keep coming back and hang in PNP. You are doing what is best for you, and I admire and respect the work you are doing on yourself and the decisions you've made. All the best.
Well, I knew this was going too smooth. After reading his family's texts all day about who talked to AH and what he told them, I went home from work. AH said that he had an appointment with social services on Thursday. Knowing that he lies, I asked for his paperwork so I could see the time. "Oh, I don't have any, I got the appointment over the phone." OK. Mind you, last week when I tried contacting them, I had to phone constantly for two days before I got someone on the line. And she told me, I can't help you with that, but you can just go into the center... you don't have to have an appointment. So was my AH honest with his family? Maybe. It's always possible. So I let it go.
So I advised him that when he gets there to make sure and tell the worker that his Medi-CAl should be a "rush" situation. He asked me why?
I then explained the situation with the rent, how much time we have in the house, and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out. He was shocked. Like he had never heard it before. I just don't understand it. But then again, I don't have to. LOL! But I had to reiterate why I want to separate, and I made sure to keep it to it being all about me. What I needed, that I needed to work on myself, and I had hoped he would also want to work on his demons that cause him to self-medicate.
He cried and said he didn't want me to move out. I told him I understood, but it was something that needed to be done. Even if I didn't feel the need to live separately, neither of us can afford the rent on our own. After the crying, he got very quiet and then I could tell he was angry. But I couldn't tell if he was angry at me, himself, or at the situation.
I think it's going to be a weird night.
I don't know why I thought this could be somewhat civilized. I mean, he knows he needs help. Does he think I would continue being treated like a doormat forever?
Denial is a strong entity.
The fact that he wasn't getting off his hind end to make things happen suggests that he did think you would just wait around forever. In my experience, they wait for years and years and years to do anything about their situation. And then when we are at our very last ounce of patience, they say, "Oh, okay! I'll get better then! I'll go into recovery! You should have told me sooner!" (Ignoring the years in which our pain was very clear.) And because they don't do this until we're on the very real brink of leaving, they then act real surprised and offended. "Why can't you even give me a chance?! I can't believe you're walking out on me like this! When I'm doing everything you want! And you're just abandoning me!"
I've seen this over and over, and done it over and over. I notice that when we believe them and stay so we're not "walking out on them," the recovery all of a sudden slows down bigtime. And soon it's the same old merry-go-round. Because once we're back in place, they see no need to do anything differently.
My thought is now that if they are insisting they'll pursue recovery, then there's plenty of time to get back together. Like maybe in two years, when their recovery is strong and it's clear they're serious and working hard. Or five years. No hurry.
You write "At some point, his family is going to look at you like your the 'enemy,' because you are not doing the helping, and now they have to deal with him." If that happens, I think they very soon will find out exactly what it feels like to be trying to help someone who's living in chaos and insanity. And very soon they will understand exactly why you left.
Hi Posiesandpuppies,
I was where you are this past June. I sat on the decision to leave because of a lot of fear about doing the right thing. Probably too long because my 15-year old daughter was suffering in an unhappy household. I don't know if this helps but I just kept picturing that light at the end of the tunnel. For me, it was a safe, calm household where there was love and kindness. That is what I have now and I am not looking back. I still have to fight my fears, my enabling, and my tendency to want to be perceived as the savior. So there are daily challenges. But more importantly, every day offers hope and moments of joy.
Best wishes to you. I hope you will let us know how you are doing.
When I was in active alcoholism, I never did what I did to hurt another. Quite frankly, I never gave anyone else another thought. I did what I did (deception, denial, selfishness, self-serving, manipulation, etc.) to get what I wanted. I never ever considered nor cared how my actions were affecting others. I only 'owned my stuff' when I got caught up in it. It was normal and natural to lie, cheat, steal, drink, etc.
The best gift of this program and recovery is I get to decide when I want to get off the merry-go-round. Because my AH and I share kids, I can also decide when/if to get back on. He and my boys are not bad people, they are sick people. That will never keep me from treating them with kindness, respect and love. It's just who I am and one of the gifts this program has given me.
That does not mean I sit around and sing kumbaya with them. I still do eyerolls and I still wonder at times what is going on in their minds. Yet, I can give them over to God, treat them kindly and pray for them and the disease that controls them. Beyond that, I can get bitter really quickly if I am not careful about my focus and attitude.
You are doing great. Keep doing you, one day at a time and do all that you can to trust the process. Sending you tons of (((hugs))), positive thoughts and prayers!
and pain -- that kept happening over and over and over again. Now, I completely understand -- my wife was doing what she was doing. She was just doing what she was doing. That's what alcoholics do. Period. The real problem -- yes, we all know it -- was me! I kept expecting, hoping, and yes I wanted -- her to want to get better!
Anyway, more to the point, you are doing all the right things for you, all the healthy things for you -- and that's great! I very much like that you kept it in the "I" -- and I am not surprised, actually I expected, him to react as if he never heard this before. Been there done that had a cup of coffee and went home...to my new home! LOL. But, I expected the never heard this before, first time, completely shocked, from him just based upon your ongoing updates. I like that you let it go, until you didn't -- and then you handled what needed to be handled, in such a healthy, compassionate and caring way. I so admire and respect you and what you are doing and how you are doing it. Thank you so much for posting this.
As far as the anger -- one thing that jumped out at me -- when you referenced "...and that I was dead serious when I told him at the beginning of the month that I was through riding this merry-go-round and that me and kid were moving out." Could that have been the catalyst for some anger on his part? Perhaps a shift in his feelings? Something? Anything? Because the truth is -- he did hear it before. From you, from his family. That was all his denial, but the reality if often never a reality with the alcoholic. That is part of the disease -- their disease. You are right -- you don't understand AND YOU don't have to. You are so right.
So, I have a question -- how did you feel about having to reiterate why you want to separate? Even though you kept it all about you -- did you feel that was "getting into it" again? Did you feel you were getting into a back and forth? Or was it simply you just re-stating, reiterating, etc.? That's been a struggle for me -- and sometimes there is a fine line between reiterating my feelings, keeping it in the I, etc., and getting into it all over again, and getting caught up in the back and forth with the alcoholic. The former, I wish was not necessary -- and the latter is very unhealthy for me. So, the former -- it was necessary here for you? Were you uncomfortable getting back into that discussion with him? Did you feel it was regression at all? I am asking because this is something I constantly struggle with, and I have trouble sometimes distinguishing between the two. My emotions supercede my intellect.
I also have felt a little like straddling a fine line when I say, infer, or even feel -- that I hoped my AW would also want to work on her issues, demons, etc., or even just work on herself. From my perspective, when it has become clear to me that my AW did not want to get better -- despite all the talk, promises, inauthentic efforts, half-hearted efforts, self-sabotaged efforts, etc. -- if she did not want to get better, then me saying "I hope" almost feels like I am giving an opinion when not asked for one. I struggle with this one. I certainly will not "force my will" -- but I try to be very careful what I say about my hopes, expectations, opinions, advice, etc, as it relates to the alcoholic and their decision to get better or not.
One thing you mentioned -- which I think is very insightful and very interesting -- the anger. In my experience, there have been countless times where I've witnessed the alcoholic get angry -- and initially, I could never tell if they were angry at me, themselves, the situation, someone else, etc. What I've found -- when looking at this disease, and all of my experience, and I do not mean to stereotype or generalize, however, I've found that often the alcoholic, for a glimpse, for a moment, is sometimes angry at themselves. Just for a moment, and that is a trigger. The moment it happens -- then they have to lash out, blame, etc. It is their only release. They certainly can't look at the reality and blame themselves, be angry at themselves, take ownership, etc. -- if they did, that might be the point where they want to get better. That might be the rock bottom they need. Who knows. However, I found that whenever the alcoholic gets angry, it is so very common for them to lash out at someone, usually people closest to them (because they tend to get away with it, LOL), they tend to blame someone, anyone, everyone else -- except themselves. Blame, denial, whatever. It is part of the progressive, decimating, insidious, cunning, and baffling disease that we face.
I think it's going to be a weird night.
Even when my AW, and other alcoholics/addicts I have known -- even when they know, truly know, they need help...it still doesn't mean they are truly ready and want it. It is sad.
Thank you so much again for posting all of this PNP. Focus on YOU. I admire and respect you and all that you are doing.
gratefulforafuture - thank you for providing me with hope that what I seek will eventually be the outcome!
Iamhere - thank you for the support... I have actually seen my AH deny that he is in denial, so yea, it's possible! LOL! I read your posts daily, as you give me strength. Thank you!
Bo - I will reply to you later, must go to work. Thank you for your support... just the fact that someone has admiration for the way I am facing my hard "stuff" is just the boost I needed today!
And thank you Bo, for your responses and this last thread about anger. It reminded me that what helped me to get through the AH's anger was to remind myself of the mental illness component of this disease. It kept my expectations down.
AlAnon teachings and all my AlAnon friends kept reminding me to keep the focus on what was good for me and good for the kids. It all helped me.
Thank you.
marijane - your words meant a great deal to me today. AH is telling his family he will NEVER move from this house (even though it is a rental), and they are trying to get him moving on getting MediCal or disability or both to seek treatment... and I feel caught in the middle. I just come here and read and keep the focus on myself. Your post helped me today.
Bo - As to your questions; I was initially angry about having to rehash my intentions. So I dragged my feet a couple days. But I thought about the anger, and I realized I was angry because I didn't want to face the possible reactions (sadness, anger) of my AH. So I had to put my "big girl panties on" so to speak. As it turned out, there wasn't a huge back and forth. Just a restating, and a gentle reminder of reality, regardless of where me and Kid were going. I felt proud of myself for that. But I DID feel uncomfortable with the whole exchange. I think that it probably wasn't a huge discussion b/c AH has been dry now for almost 2 weeks. He is still not thinking perfectly, but certainly more clearly!
Now for the other issue - saying that I "hope" he would seek treatment... I understand your thought process on this, and it would be a huge trigger if I had any hope for our marriage. But I don't. He burned me out. I have nothing more to give to it. Remember, this is his second round of addiction merry-go-round, and so my second ride as well. So I really do hope that he seeks treatment FOR HIMSELF. Because he was a great guy...and he deserves to be able to live in his own skin without self-medication.
What you said about the anger is very insightful for me. I think that is where QTIP is the best slogan! It is interesting, when I had to have this rehash, he told me "Getting fired WAS my bottom!" But yet, he is still fighting his family in regards to going to treatment... deflecting, lying, putting things off. So I think that really wasn't his bottom. He still has some odd idea that he is going to use his 401K money from his lost job to pay for months of rent, probably get another job, and the merry-go-round will keep spinning.
As always, thank you MIP family for giving me strength!
An Update: I have been away from my computer for a few days now. After an exhausting week, I came home from my son's band performance (football game) to find AH was still up and watching TV. He wanted to talk about his visit to DPSS. I guess his mom came and took him for his appointment. I guess b/c he filled the online form with the same address as I did, MY application was delayed (serious eye-roll here). I told him the day I had my appointment (almost 2 weeks ago) to please make sure and NOT put the same address. Put the rehab address, a family members address anything but this one, or my and his son's application may be denied. Well, I guess they got it all fixed, and the worker told him everyone's applications should move forward now. Whew! He then began talking about taking his 401K money from his last job (~$9,000) and he was going to use it to pay rent for a few months to give us some breathing room. I explained that this wasn't a good idea, b/c he really doesn't know what will be required after rehab (sober-house living etc), and he may need some money to get out there on his own. What? What do you mean? he asked. "Are you asking me for a divorce?"
"No, I have never said, "divorce," but I told you I thought I needed to be separated from all this and son and I were moving out. His first reaction was anger... I could see it on his face. But then he broke down crying. It was all the emotions I didn't want to feel/experience. He ran to the bathroom and stayed in there crying. I told him I had to go walk the dog... I walked, and walked! I KNEW THAT THIS WAS THE NEXT RIGHT THING! Yet, I began to have doubts b/c I felt so bad for making him feel this sad. I couldn't get a hold of my sponsor, so I just kept walking! I called my brother, my mother, and finally my sponsor called me back and was actually on her way to meet me. She found me in my neighborhood, not far from my house in hysterics. Luckily she was able to calm me down and talk some sense into me. She helped me formulate the words I needed to say to him, and helped me make a list of things to "grab and go." She also waited in her car outside my home to make sure I was OK. Eventually I was able to grab stuff for me, son and the dog and get it all in the car. We did have another discussion outside on the front lawn and I just told him that I am just sorry that this is the way it is, but living with this disease for so long has left me empty... I have nothing more to give, and to please respect me enough to let me have a few days away to get a handle on my emotions. Because our son needs a stable parent, and right now I feel like I am having an emotional breakdown. He said he understood.
So my son and I have spent the weekend at my parent's house (who are out of town) and we worked our butts off cleaning the tiny house on my parents' property. We feel a great sense of accomplishment as well as hope for a peaceful future! I did ask one of his family members to do a welfare check on AH... he was fine. His nephew told me he seemed like he didn't really "get" that we were out for the weekend, but eventually the nephew said he began to see why this was needed. He told the nephew that I seemed to "have it all together, and didn't realize the extent of my pain." I told nephew that was probably true b/c Kid needs to have at least one parent who is stable, but I am at the end of my emotional tether!!! AH did call me later that night and told me he never meant to hurt me, and he doesn't want me to feel like he will always be making me feel guilty about leaving. If I need to get stuff, feel free to come and get it, he will help (If I need it), or take a walk so that he will be out of the house. Even though my sponsor feels I should've stayed "moved out," by Sunday night, my son and I were itching to get back... our work was done & we had nothing but some clothes in the new house. We both needed stuff to get ready for the upcoming week. So we went back to the house tonight.
All seems "OK" considering what happened this weekend, and now my focus will be on getting stuff moved over, and other stuff packed up for storage. I did send his sister a text just kind of reminding them that my goal was to be out by the 30th of Sept., and they may need to start getting packing boxes etc. just in case he is not capable of packing his stuff. I know their focus is getting him into rehab, but in a few days it will be a month! They are kind of just sitting on their duffs waiting for him to do it all. I just wanted to make it clear gently, that I was not going to be "in charge" of his stuff.
Anyway, thank you to all my MIP family who in one way or another gave me the strength to take this leap of faith! Keep me in your thoughts as my son and I move through the month and try and put 29 years of stuff in boxes.
Peace!
As I read your post -- I am saying, yes, that's what happened to me. I was focused on me and what I had to do, what was best, healthy for me. And my AW was doing little to nothing -- on going to rehab, which she agreed, but then fought, on packing and moving, discussions as far as options with her family, etc. She wanted to know where she was moving and what she was doing. Her family tried to explain that depending on how rehab went, she might stay longer, go to outpatient, go to sober living, who knows. She wanted to know! She couldn't understand why this was happening. In her mind the only known option was for her to "come live with me" -- because everything else was an unknown. She was angry, crying, sad, desperate, and accused me of some underhanded way of leaving her permanently, covertly filing for divorce, and so on.
When she kept asking me why, what did this mean, and so on -- I made sure I didn't get back into it with her. But, I was kind and very compassionate. I wanted to be there for her, but in a healthy and compassionate way. I would be there for her but would not be her partner in the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc. I would not be her partner in the disease or anything that came from that disease. When I got out for that first day or so, moving some stuff, etc. -- I needed to get space and distance. I needed to detach both emotionally and physically. So as much as I was itching...I stayed out another two days. I brought some clothes, but had to do laundry at my parents. LOL.
I had to remind her parents about the packing, time-frame, storage, etc. I explained the house had to be empty -- empty, empty, empty -- by such and such a date. The consequences if it didn't happen would all fall on her (my AW), but her family would have to deal with it. Everyone's focus was getting her into rehab. But having dealt with this for many years -- I realized how unprepared they were. Wow. They were trying to be logical, trying to make sense to her and with her, trying to rationalize with her, they expected normal and healthy behavior from her. What was shocking is when she lied to them or manipulated a situation, they didn't realize what happened. She danced, deflected, blamed it on miscommunication or misunderstanding -- and they just didn't see it. They caught her in so many lies and their denial was so deep, they just couldn't see it. They didn't want to. That was them wanting to avoid pain.
Anyway...keep focusing on YOU. Keep up the great work! You are an inspiration to those who have been there and those who are currently there. I admire and respect what you are doing and how you are doing it. Keep it up!!!
I am reminded by your share how HP does do for us what we need when we need it. I love that you + Kid were able to work together for the next chapter of your journey. I love that you are doing 'the next right thing' and trusting the process and your plan.
Just keep doing you and keep trusting....it's looking great on you! (((Hugs)))