My AD calls me often. She doesn't drink every day, nor does she take too many anti-anxiety meds every day, so there are some days when she is somewhat rational.
Her life/emotions are very chaotic, but she is starting to work a couple days a week (didn't work for years) and starting to make some progress.
I attempt to try to remain supportive of any positive actions she takes.
I try very hard not to give unsolicited advice (a hard one for me but here;s an example: in a recent situation, she lent her car to a neighbor who has a serious drinking/drugging problem because he lost his phone and needed to go find it. He didn't return it and she needed it. When she tried to track him down, she ended up learning that he didn't have a license due to DUIs. I told her I would never lend my car to anyone as there is too much at stake. If the car is wrecked, I am the one who loses out. She said, Well I didn't know he didn't have a license. I thought about the car being wrecked after I lent it when he didn't bring it back).
Boundaries I have set are turning phones off after 8 pm (or 5 pm, or earlier depending on how I feel or whether her calls have become abusive, delusional, or the topics too drug/alcohol story focused).
If she isn't sober, and calls me, I end the call.
If she leaves rambling voice mails or texts, I don't listen, respond to or read.
When she and I talk, when he topics move to the "unsavory" I try first to change to a more positive, productive, or neutral topic. If this doesn't work, i tell her I need to go.
However, here is the issue I am dealing with today. She has called numerous times today. Sober, and trying to think through one of her boyfriend/life issues (he is jealous, harasses her, spies on her, etc). The conversation was getting emotional for her, so we talked of other things. And, then, out of the blue she makes a false statement about my past (something she said a relative told her I did 50 years ago). I was completely taken aback. The action she said I engaged in was so totally out of character for me, or for the time I lived in. I was offended, and told her that I couldn't believe she would say something like that, or believe something like that (she was talking about when I was 15 years old and in high school). She said, Oh I must have misheard. I told her that to hear such a thing was offensive and hurtful. She said said F%@$ you. it wasn't a big deal, why was I upset.
To me, she just crossed an absolute line. I am her mother. I am 65 years old. This does not fit in any way with what I consider an acceptable statement to make to a parent, no matter what the circumstances. I told her this and hung up.
Now what?
SerenityRUS said
Jun 28, 2017
Hugs,
It sounds very stressful and drama filled, .. I am watching a situation play out that indirectly involves me and I get to stay out of it which is nice. On the observational side I go with you can't argue with a fence post and sometimes people who are the fence post really believe the garbage they are spewing. I am often saying know your truth and stand in that .. you can stand there quietly while the storm rages.
Expecting a fence post not to act like a fence post is where I get into insanity of my own behavior. What this other person says is hateful, hurtful and completely inappropriate. All I can say is that not engaging, limiting engaging, and knowing when that line is crossed and the my anger kicks in is key for me. I can then work through what I need to work through before I choose to engage.
This other person has found out that their current behavior is not getting them what they want and the tactic changing that has occurred has been interesting. The reality is no one has the right to speak to a fellow human being in such a way that it is demeaning, hate filled and think that is ok. If they think that is the best way to handle the situation then they can go figure out something else .. it's not on me.
I don't know .. I don't get into the whole I'm the mother and you can't .. I tell my kids I am a person and I have feelings too, just because I'm your mother doesn't give you leave to not think about what comes out of your mouth. They DO know the difference .. a fence post can't see past being a fence post and that's the only way I know how to explain it. IF that makes any sense. I don't expect good behavior from someone who doesn't know the difference. I do respect myself enough to take leave of said situation which you did and that's a good on you for stating your truth and ending the conversation.
Hugs S :)
lgnutah said
Jun 28, 2017
I understand that people of a younger generation use the "F" word like turning on a faucet......but my thought was they use it in situations where the listener also uses the word as a part of conversation. In other words, even though young people use this word as a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, whatever, they don't do so all the time (they refrain when talking with a parent, an employer, a religious leader, a policeman, etc).
So, since the word was used with me, and given my AD is fully aware of how I feel about the use of the F word, her intention was clearly aimed at hurting me.
The other issue, of making a statement about a behavior she "heard" I engaged in at age 15, which caught me off guard, so initially was hurtful, and perplexing, I now attribute to her brain disease as a result of her alcohol/drug use. Alcohol/drugs have somehow contributed to a loss of a grasp on reality, where she re-trieves "memories" which may have been dreams, or totally imagined.
I guess both her strange focus on illegal/immoral behaviors and her lack of boundaries are all part of her disease.
My job right now is to protect, support and take care of myself.
Step 1 I turned off all my phones.
Next I came here. I shared, got support.
Then read some other people's message board posts and tried to give support to others'
I am repeating the serenity prayer. I can't control other people. I can work on protecting my boundaries.
In a minute I will go do some yoga.
I'm OK
Bo said
Jun 28, 2017
It sounds like you are off to a good start with some basic, fundamental boundaries. Congratulations. I tried the time thing, but it ended up being simply when the unacceptable behavior started, the verbal attacks/assaults, the name calling, blame, sarcastic or passive aggressive comments, etc. And, it worked! I love the if not sober end the call one. That one restored, maintained and kept my peace and serenity at least a thousand times. I also like the voice mail and text one. Good for you.
So, onto the now what? That's up to you. Is an apology in order? Sure it is. Is it a dealbreaker? That's up to you. Being that you feel she's crossed a line, perhaps you need to decide what it is that is needed/wanted by you so that this is now acceptable to you moving forward. What are you feeling here? That there must be an apology?
lgnutah said
Jun 28, 2017
The way I feel about apologies is if a person pushed me down and said 'sorry' , but then pushed me down the next day......actions speak louder than words. The person wasn't sorry in the least because the person continued to push me down.
For now, I will do nothing. Phones will stay off. I just need some time to have serenity as the focus of my spirit.
One moment at a time.
SerenityRUS said
Jun 28, 2017
BIG hugs ..
I agree the F word is thrown around a LOT, I call it verbal vomit. Personally how I think and how my brain works is if there is no cost benefit to continuing the conversation and it is an emotionally expensive conversation I those conversations I keep in pennies not in dollars. Meaning .. I'm not going to invest my time and energy. When the conversation changes I am then invested however not while it's going down that road.
The situation I am watching unfold there is a LOT of FU, you are scum, you are a SOB, verbal vomit here verbal vomit there .. it's utterly ridiculous in my mind for two grown ups to engage in that kind of conversation. I'm grateful it is one sided because I would question my choices if it was not.
The other thing is if I'm going to truly insult someone I prefer they have to actually think and goggle what I'm saying vs throw slang out. Slang is easy to throw and not have to think or accept responsibility for the fall out.
It's great that you are taking care of YOU because the verbal stuff can be an assault of sorts on the senses. I mean there are movies I won't watch because of the language it's just to much. So good for you and I agree with your assessment of apologies as well .. it's the actions not words I'm looking at so that's great thanks for the apology how are you going to show me things are different.
Hugs S :)
mamalioness said
Jun 28, 2017
lgnutah wrote:
The way I feel about apologies is if a person pushed me down and said 'sorry' , but then pushed me down the next day......actions speak louder than words. The person wasn't sorry in the least because the person continued to push me down. For now, I will do nothing. Phones will stay off. I just need some time to have serenity as the focus of my spirit. One moment at a time.
its tough when its your kid or any one close to you, but self care has to be priority for us alanons or we get back into the stinking thinking real quick....CoDa having to absorb their problems b/c we think we have to (oh because it is family)
I have an adopted daughter who treats me with passive aggressive abuse....like your analogy..she will figuratively push me down, apologize then do it AGAIN soon thereafter...I finally stopped listening to her words and watching her actions and I put some distance between me and her...oh yea, I will always care about her, she is mom to my grandkids, but I don't have to be her victim either...so I just don't put me in situations where she can slap me down....I don't ask her for any favors, I don't expect to do any holidays with her, I have ZERO expectations of her.....the status now is I go see the kids, I chat with her, treat her nice because I am done being pissed and resentful, that is gone, so yea, I just put her on an outer circle, farther from my heart , however I still , when I see her, keep it casual, nice, friendly and I take care of me.....
Bo said
Jun 28, 2017
lgnutah wrote:
The way I feel about apologies is if a person pushed me down and said 'sorry' , but then pushed me down the next day......actions speak louder than words. The person wasn't sorry in the least because the person continued to push me down. For now, I will do nothing. Phones will stay off. I just need some time to have serenity as the focus of my spirit. One moment at a time.
I agree. When I look at me, and that person pushes me down, the the next day, and the next day, and so on...if I keep going back, "allowing" myself to get pushed down, expecting the other person to change, etc. -- then I am shopping for bread in a hardware store. Not me. Not since I've gotten better and healthy.
Enjoy your time and serenity.
Mattie said
Jun 28, 2017
The way I see it, it's not offensive for someone to be wrong. She's just wrong. She believed the thing, she was wrong to believe it, end of story. I think maybe trying to control what someone else believes is a way to set ourselves up for disappointment. I am put in mind of the Al-Anon saying "What other people think of me is none of my business." She may have gotten your character wrong. People make mistakes all the time. I think maybe I'd aim at saying calmly, "No, it actually wasn't like that, I did [whatever]." And then you move on to the next topic...
One thing I've learned is about this thing called emotional contagion, where the person with the stronger emotion automatically "passes" the strong emotion on to the other person. So if you are upset, she will become upset too. If you are angry, she will become angry in response. And so on. It takes great awareness and strength of will to resist this happening. Because it's designed in us, so that groups will stick together. However, in times of stress it's definitely a disadvantage. What I see about your conversation is that things seemed pretty calm until she brought up this topic, and you had a lot of emotions about it, and then she "caught" the emotions and the conversation started being very difficult. I think we probably always think more clearly when things are calmer, and so you can also "set" the calmness of the conversation by staying calm and sticking to calmness even if she's trying to fly off the handle.
But basically I've observed that things go better when we stick to our own side of the street and don't let ourselves be drawn into trying to make people have the opinions of us that we want them to have. Even if we think they are being very unfair. That's upsetting to our serenity.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
Iamhere said
Jun 28, 2017
As I sit here with my oldest who has no filter, I must say I can relate.....there are a few things at play in my scenario - age/generational difference as well as sober/serene vs. active insanity. He and his brother often drop 'things' for the sheer purpose of shock value. I am reminded that at the age/stage one begins abusing substances, their maturity stops. When I can recall that they are pre-teen/teen-age in adult size bodies, I can usually keep from reacting - the reaction is what mine enjoyed most before I went to Al-Anon.
As I worked on me, found my truth and restored my self-esteem and sanity, I was able to truly practice what's in my signature - Pausing. When I can pause and consider the source, the circumstance and the insanity - I am able to pull strength from my HP to re-frame my response. It doesn't always work well for me, but it's improved drastically - I think mine wanted me to react just so they could point to my insanity and then take the focus off of them. Sounds crazy, but I did it too way back in the day when I was active.
I am sorry you are hurting and angry. My youngest said a few things the other day that hurt my feelings; I've been distant since....not to punish but to reconsider my own boundaries and my reactions to his words. I can recall being a teen-ager and young adult and thinking my parents were insane, strict, mean, etc. So - I can let some things slide - I will advocate for me as I choose and when I am ready using calm words when necessary.
(((Hugs))) - I hear you....
2HP said
Jun 29, 2017
I think what she did was classic manipulation. my former AH would often shift attention AWAY from him and his BS and make me the problem somehow.
This is precisely how I thought I would go insane. But its NOT that he did it.... I can insist people "shouldn't" act this way all day long, the fact remains I cannot control others and what they do. I was always thrown off center because I'd start BELIEVING IT. that was my part in it....
I'd start questioning and doubting myself and the truth so now the attention was on ME and not him. His manipulations were very effective until I caught onto it. Al-anon encourages us to understand alcoholism and when I began to recognize he was turning the tables on me as another way to protect HIMSELF and what he was doing, I didn't let it happen anymore. I stopped letting his disease control me.
You're doing great protecting YOU today, however its gotta look... let go... let go... let go... by getting with God today (((big hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 29th of June 2017 10:58:40 AM
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 29th of June 2017 11:07:52 AM
My AD calls me often. She doesn't drink every day, nor does she take too many anti-anxiety meds every day, so there are some days when she is somewhat rational.
Her life/emotions are very chaotic, but she is starting to work a couple days a week (didn't work for years) and starting to make some progress.
I attempt to try to remain supportive of any positive actions she takes.
I try very hard not to give unsolicited advice (a hard one for me but here;s an example: in a recent situation, she lent her car to a neighbor who has a serious drinking/drugging problem because he lost his phone and needed to go find it. He didn't return it and she needed it. When she tried to track him down, she ended up learning that he didn't have a license due to DUIs. I told her I would never lend my car to anyone as there is too much at stake. If the car is wrecked, I am the one who loses out. She said, Well I didn't know he didn't have a license. I thought about the car being wrecked after I lent it when he didn't bring it back).
Boundaries I have set are turning phones off after 8 pm (or 5 pm, or earlier depending on how I feel or whether her calls have become abusive, delusional, or the topics too drug/alcohol story focused).
If she isn't sober, and calls me, I end the call.
If she leaves rambling voice mails or texts, I don't listen, respond to or read.
When she and I talk, when he topics move to the "unsavory" I try first to change to a more positive, productive, or neutral topic. If this doesn't work, i tell her I need to go.
However, here is the issue I am dealing with today. She has called numerous times today. Sober, and trying to think through one of her boyfriend/life issues (he is jealous, harasses her, spies on her, etc). The conversation was getting emotional for her, so we talked of other things. And, then, out of the blue she makes a false statement about my past (something she said a relative told her I did 50 years ago). I was completely taken aback. The action she said I engaged in was so totally out of character for me, or for the time I lived in. I was offended, and told her that I couldn't believe she would say something like that, or believe something like that (she was talking about when I was 15 years old and in high school). She said, Oh I must have misheard. I told her that to hear such a thing was offensive and hurtful. She said said F%@$ you. it wasn't a big deal, why was I upset.
To me, she just crossed an absolute line. I am her mother. I am 65 years old. This does not fit in any way with what I consider an acceptable statement to make to a parent, no matter what the circumstances. I told her this and hung up.
Now what?
It sounds very stressful and drama filled, .. I am watching a situation play out that indirectly involves me and I get to stay out of it which is nice. On the observational side I go with you can't argue with a fence post and sometimes people who are the fence post really believe the garbage they are spewing. I am often saying know your truth and stand in that .. you can stand there quietly while the storm rages.
Expecting a fence post not to act like a fence post is where I get into insanity of my own behavior. What this other person says is hateful, hurtful and completely inappropriate. All I can say is that not engaging, limiting engaging, and knowing when that line is crossed and the my anger kicks in is key for me. I can then work through what I need to work through before I choose to engage.
This other person has found out that their current behavior is not getting them what they want and the tactic changing that has occurred has been interesting. The reality is no one has the right to speak to a fellow human being in such a way that it is demeaning, hate filled and think that is ok. If they think that is the best way to handle the situation then they can go figure out something else .. it's not on me.
I don't know .. I don't get into the whole I'm the mother and you can't .. I tell my kids I am a person and I have feelings too, just because I'm your mother doesn't give you leave to not think about what comes out of your mouth. They DO know the difference .. a fence post can't see past being a fence post and that's the only way I know how to explain it. IF that makes any sense. I don't expect good behavior from someone who doesn't know the difference. I do respect myself enough to take leave of said situation which you did and that's a good on you for stating your truth and ending the conversation.
Hugs S :)
So, since the word was used with me, and given my AD is fully aware of how I feel about the use of the F word, her intention was clearly aimed at hurting me.
The other issue, of making a statement about a behavior she "heard" I engaged in at age 15, which caught me off guard, so initially was hurtful, and perplexing, I now attribute to her brain disease as a result of her alcohol/drug use. Alcohol/drugs have somehow contributed to a loss of a grasp on reality, where she re-trieves "memories" which may have been dreams, or totally imagined.
I guess both her strange focus on illegal/immoral behaviors and her lack of boundaries are all part of her disease.
My job right now is to protect, support and take care of myself.
Step 1 I turned off all my phones.
Next I came here. I shared, got support.
Then read some other people's message board posts and tried to give support to others'
I am repeating the serenity prayer. I can't control other people. I can work on protecting my boundaries.
In a minute I will go do some yoga.
I'm OK
So, onto the now what? That's up to you. Is an apology in order? Sure it is. Is it a dealbreaker? That's up to you. Being that you feel she's crossed a line, perhaps you need to decide what it is that is needed/wanted by you so that this is now acceptable to you moving forward. What are you feeling here? That there must be an apology?
For now, I will do nothing. Phones will stay off. I just need some time to have serenity as the focus of my spirit.
One moment at a time.
I agree the F word is thrown around a LOT, I call it verbal vomit. Personally how I think and how my brain works is if there is no cost benefit to continuing the conversation and it is an emotionally expensive conversation I those conversations I keep in pennies not in dollars. Meaning .. I'm not going to invest my time and energy. When the conversation changes I am then invested however not while it's going down that road.
The situation I am watching unfold there is a LOT of FU, you are scum, you are a SOB, verbal vomit here verbal vomit there .. it's utterly ridiculous in my mind for two grown ups to engage in that kind of conversation. I'm grateful it is one sided because I would question my choices if it was not.
The other thing is if I'm going to truly insult someone I prefer they have to actually think and goggle what I'm saying vs throw slang out. Slang is easy to throw and not have to think or accept responsibility for the fall out.
It's great that you are taking care of YOU because the verbal stuff can be an assault of sorts on the senses. I mean there are movies I won't watch because of the language it's just to much. So good for you and I agree with your assessment of apologies as well .. it's the actions not words I'm looking at so that's great thanks for the apology how are you going to show me things are different.
Hugs S :)
its tough when its your kid or any one close to you, but self care has to be priority for us alanons or we get back into the stinking thinking real quick....CoDa having to absorb their problems b/c we think we have to (oh because it is family)
I have an adopted daughter who treats me with passive aggressive abuse....like your analogy..she will figuratively push me down, apologize then do it AGAIN soon thereafter...I finally stopped listening to her words and watching her actions and I put some distance between me and her...oh yea, I will always care about her, she is mom to my grandkids, but I don't have to be her victim either...so I just don't put me in situations where she can slap me down....I don't ask her for any favors, I don't expect to do any holidays with her, I have ZERO expectations of her.....the status now is I go see the kids, I chat with her, treat her nice because I am done being pissed and resentful, that is gone, so yea, I just put her on an outer circle, farther from my heart , however I still , when I see her, keep it casual, nice, friendly and I take care of me.....
I agree. When I look at me, and that person pushes me down, the the next day, and the next day, and so on...if I keep going back, "allowing" myself to get pushed down, expecting the other person to change, etc. -- then I am shopping for bread in a hardware store. Not me. Not since I've gotten better and healthy.
Enjoy your time and serenity.
The way I see it, it's not offensive for someone to be wrong. She's just wrong. She believed the thing, she was wrong to believe it, end of story. I think maybe trying to control what someone else believes is a way to set ourselves up for disappointment. I am put in mind of the Al-Anon saying "What other people think of me is none of my business." She may have gotten your character wrong. People make mistakes all the time. I think maybe I'd aim at saying calmly, "No, it actually wasn't like that, I did [whatever]." And then you move on to the next topic...
One thing I've learned is about this thing called emotional contagion, where the person with the stronger emotion automatically "passes" the strong emotion on to the other person. So if you are upset, she will become upset too. If you are angry, she will become angry in response. And so on. It takes great awareness and strength of will to resist this happening. Because it's designed in us, so that groups will stick together. However, in times of stress it's definitely a disadvantage. What I see about your conversation is that things seemed pretty calm until she brought up this topic, and you had a lot of emotions about it, and then she "caught" the emotions and the conversation started being very difficult. I think we probably always think more clearly when things are calmer, and so you can also "set" the calmness of the conversation by staying calm and sticking to calmness even if she's trying to fly off the handle.
But basically I've observed that things go better when we stick to our own side of the street and don't let ourselves be drawn into trying to make people have the opinions of us that we want them to have. Even if we think they are being very unfair. That's upsetting to our serenity.
Hope you will take good care of yourself.
As I worked on me, found my truth and restored my self-esteem and sanity, I was able to truly practice what's in my signature - Pausing. When I can pause and consider the source, the circumstance and the insanity - I am able to pull strength from my HP to re-frame my response. It doesn't always work well for me, but it's improved drastically - I think mine wanted me to react just so they could point to my insanity and then take the focus off of them. Sounds crazy, but I did it too way back in the day when I was active.
I am sorry you are hurting and angry. My youngest said a few things the other day that hurt my feelings; I've been distant since....not to punish but to reconsider my own boundaries and my reactions to his words. I can recall being a teen-ager and young adult and thinking my parents were insane, strict, mean, etc. So - I can let some things slide - I will advocate for me as I choose and when I am ready using calm words when necessary.
(((Hugs))) - I hear you....
I think what she did was classic manipulation. my former AH would often shift attention AWAY from him and his BS and make me the problem somehow.
This is precisely how I thought I would go insane. But its NOT that he did it.... I can insist people "shouldn't" act this way all day long, the fact remains I cannot control others and what they do. I was always thrown off center because I'd start BELIEVING IT. that was my part in it....
I'd start questioning and doubting myself and the truth so now the attention was on ME and not him. His manipulations were very effective until I caught onto it. Al-anon encourages us to understand alcoholism and when I began to recognize he was turning the tables on me as another way to protect HIMSELF and what he was doing, I didn't let it happen anymore. I stopped letting his disease control me.
You're doing great protecting YOU today, however its gotta look... let go... let go... let go... by getting with God today (((big hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 29th of June 2017 10:58:40 AM
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 29th of June 2017 11:07:52 AM