I have been reading a lot lately. Mostly my codie books, but also the "Rethinking Drinking" series by Linda Burlison. These books speak to me, because I have a science background, and I have always loved science. Show me some facts/research and I can relate much better. Probably why religion has always been a sticking point for me... but I regress.
It has been said that AA takes a hard-line to recovery assisted by medication. After all the research, I am not sure why. Why wouldn't someone want to use all modalities to help them recover? Anyway, I decided to buy the "How to Guide" in the series for my husband. BEFORE I bought it, I tried to use my Al-Anon tools and asked myself, "Why am I doing this?"
I came to the realization that since my AH thinks he is stuck b/c he can't enter a program (due to missed work), and can't avail himself of work-offered help (afraid he might get fired - although that is illegal), and has tried to do it himself cold- turkey (without success)... he doesn't know, or hasn't spoken about medication facilitated recovery. And certainly he didn't get anything from his last hospital stay except a bunch of papers on alcohol abuse and programs (none of which talked about medication). So I chose to buy this book knowing that:
1. I cannot make him read it, and shouldn't have any expectations that he will.
2. All his "reasons" for not getting help may just be excuses.
3. That I have come to the point that I don't want to live this life anymore... so this is my "last-ditch" effort in preserving our marriage. It is not up to me if he will take this path and embrace it. In all probability he will never even open this book. But if there is a chance that he will and then will go and have an honest conversation with his doctor, then at least I will feel like I am not enabling him to slowly kill himself.
I KNOW that I can't control this outcome. In examining my "motives," I began to see that giving my AH this information actually makes ME feel better - regardless of what he does with it. Because he is the type of person who doesn't read... he literally doesn't have the desire to expand his mind. Not sure if that is an addiction behavior or one that is is just him, but he won't actively seek other options. Maybe it's too much work... don't know, don't even really care. I just know that if he chooses to do nothing and things continue as they are, I can't live this way. He's not physically abusive and my kid is one year from going to college... so sometimes I think I can hold on. But then I remember something someone posted as a response to someone... "Think of your life 10, 15, 20 years from now... are you willing to be living this same life?" (paraphrase). And I've decided that despite all the financial hardships, I cannot. I am just not happy - not that it's his job to make me happy, but he doesn't have to make my life a miserable hell either!
I am going to explain to him that I know I can't control this disease, but It cuts to the bone knowing that he is slowly killing himself. I am also going to remind him that my Al-Anon program has shown me that 'Nothing Changes, If Nothing Changes,' and I can't see myself living this life 5 or 10 years from now. My only goal for this is that he knows about options. What he does about it is his choice. It must be his choice.
hotrod said
Jun 27, 2017
Good Luck PP sending prayers and positive thougths for a desired outcome
shrnp said
Jun 27, 2017
It is nice that you took the time to read about other options. I think AA is against things like atavan but there is campral that some people have had some temporary success with.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 27, 2017
Thank you, Betty and shrnp. I am actually not even worrying about which drugs. I am truly handing this over to my AH and his doctor... he just feels like there is no hope for him. And maybe there isn't if he isn't willing to work on himself. Only time will tell.
sunmustshine said
Jun 28, 2017
I can relate to your need for facts and evidence. I'm like that. I used to research as though I was going to uncover the cure, or at least the one for my AH. I think in the end it was just taking the action to research so I would feel in control. Unfortunately it was just an illusion. I can't control him, alcoholism...any of it. It's only in realizing this that I felt peace. It wasn't my fault and it wasn't my burden. I was as free as I was going to allow myself all along. Perfect? No, MIP for sure. That being said, the drugs these days do work and how. My AH needed the longer term dose to get lasting sobriety because he figured out the daily dose is only a decision for the day. Start drinking and it will kick in eventually. He also figured out, I will kick him out eventually and gave the long term dose a shot trying to come home. He achieved months and months of sobriety without the awful angry sober person side effects and then threw it all away when his doc had him stop taking it temporarily for another medical test. I don't know the future, good or bad. I'm done trying to imagine it, control it, coax a different result. The only way I have peace is to live in today. Today is a mixed one. Lots of wonderful but my AH has pissed me off and I'm allowing myself to feel it but not focus on it. The wonderful things do me more good than the lousy parts of life anyway. What is my future with my AH? Who knows. I don't need that much information. I'm just going to focus on my today and how to make myself and my little one happy. Big picture thinking gets tough when you have an A in your life. I have a feeling big picture thinking can be tough for anyone with any issue though. Just focusing on today and knowing it's okay to not have the answers brings me calm and let's me feel the joys that are constantly trying to steal my attention. I hope you find a way to feel happy for yourself today too and each day as it comes.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 28, 2017
Thank you, sunmustshine for your ESH. I can really relate to your sentence, "Big picture thinking gets tough when you have an A in your life." Don't I know it!! I have spent the last 5 months mourning the loss of my future plans. Well, maybe not that long. I have gotten really good at learning how to do things on my own. In the end, it really is more pleasant than having a drunk husband or (perhaps worse?) a angry, sober, white-knuckling husband in tow. Case in point... I have had Queen + Adam Lambert tickets since early Feb. - the plan was a family outing (all big Queen fans). I was able to ask my AH if he was even interested in going a couple weeks ago. Just as I predicted, he backed out, but THIS time it wasn't at the last minute! I was able to ask a friend, and my friend, my son and I had a blast last night!
Good to hear that medication has the possibility of working... but I know that he has to work on his inner demons as well to find long-term sobriety. I am not interested in riding that not so merry-go-round, so only time will tell.
el-cee said
Jun 28, 2017
Sounds like your in a good place, accepting the things you cant change and letting go of outcomes.
I think science has its place but for me the true experts are alcoholics. Have you listened to AA speakers on youtube? I get so much understanding through listening to these men and women whose lives seemed completely hopeless, many of them at deaths door and they got recovery and have serenity at a level I can only dream of. Its inspiring to me.
One of the founders of AA got sobriety after being a patient of Carl Jung, I think his family had money and threw lots and lots of money at his alcoholism and eventually Carl Jung told him, Im sorry there is nothing I can do for you and he let him go and it was those very words that got that man recovery. It seems to be that when everyone else stops taking responsibility for the drinking and the disease and places it entirely where it belongs, in the hands of the drinker themselves, then there is hope.
Its such a tricky concept to get our heads around. We are brought up to help people, helping makes us a good person!!!! and then we are faced with a disease like alcoholism and 'helping' in the conventional sense is actually hurting. I had to really evaluate what helping actually was and my deep rooted motives for it. It was eye opening to find out that the reasons for my helping were mainly fear based, and not only fear for the drinker but fear for me, my ego was firmly in the middle of all my faulty thinking and tbh still is a lot of the time. The only difference now is my awareness of it has taken some of the power away and I can pause now much more easily before taking action.
Bo said
Jun 28, 2017
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
I have been reading a lot lately. Mostly my codie books, but also the "Rethinking Drinking" series by Linda Burlison. These books speak to me, because I have a science background, and I have always loved science. Show me some facts/research and I can relate much better. Probably why religion has always been a sticking point for me... but I regress.
It has been said that AA takes a hard-line to recovery assisted by medication. After all the research, I am not sure why. Why wouldn't someone want to use all modalities to help them recover? Anyway, I decided to buy the "How to Guide" in the series for my husband. BEFORE I bought it, I tried to use my Al-Anon tools and asked myself, "Why am I doing this?"
I came to the realization that since my AH thinks he is stuck b/c he can't enter a program (due to missed work), and can't avail himself of work-offered help (afraid he might get fired - although that is illegal), and has tried to do it himself cold- turkey (without success)... he doesn't know, or hasn't spoken about medication facilitated recovery. And certainly he didn't get anything from his last hospital stay except a bunch of papers on alcohol abuse and programs (none of which talked about medication). So I chose to buy this book knowing that:
1. I cannot make him read it, and shouldn't have any expectations that he will.
2. All his "reasons" for not getting help may just be excuses.
3. That I have come to the point that I don't want to live this life anymore... so this is my "last-ditch" effort in preserving our marriage. It is not up to me if he will take this path and embrace it. In all probability he will never even open this book. But if there is a chance that he will and then will go and have an honest conversation with his doctor, then at least I will feel like I am not enabling him to slowly kill himself.
I KNOW that I can't control this outcome. In examining my "motives," I began to see that giving my AH this information actually makes ME feel better - regardless of what he does with it. Because he is the type of person who doesn't read... he literally doesn't have the desire to expand his mind. Not sure if that is an addiction behavior or one that is is just him, but he won't actively seek other options. Maybe it's too much work... don't know, don't even really care. I just know that if he chooses to do nothing and things continue as they are, I can't live this way. He's not physically abusive and my kid is one year from going to college... so sometimes I think I can hold on. But then I remember something someone posted as a response to someone... "Think of your life 10, 15, 20 years from now... are you willing to be living this same life?" (paraphrase). And I've decided that despite all the financial hardships, I cannot. I am just not happy - not that it's his job to make me happy, but he doesn't have to make my life a miserable hell either!
I am going to explain to him that I know I can't control this disease, but It cuts to the bone knowing that he is slowly killing himself. I am also going to remind him that my Al-Anon program has shown me that 'Nothing Changes, If Nothing Changes,' and I can't see myself living this life 5 or 10 years from now. My only goal for this is that he knows about options. What he does about it is his choice. It must be his choice.
Personally, I've been through it all with the disease of alcoholism and addiction. Professionally, I've dealt with this as well, with clients, their children, etc. In addition, I've attended seminars, classes, sessions, IOP family nights, counselling, therapy, and in the real world, day to day.
That said, I once sat in a seminar with one of the leading experts in the US and he opened and closed his talk with the following commentary -- he said when an alcoholic/addicts wants to get better, truly, sincerely, authentically, without any question or discussion wants to get better...they will do anything and everything possible. Period. They won't do it "their way" and there will be nothing they won't do. They won't have any excuses or denial. Their efforts will be 100% focused and centered on stopping, quitting, getting better. There efforts, intentions, and actions will be obvious and won't be up for discussion. In addition, they will have already surrendered their will, their desire as to how to do it, and will do everything, not what they want. They will embrace all avenues of efforts and recovery, do what professionals suggest, follow professional's' advice, and not "fight" or "oppose" any option. The expert said this will (usually) look like detox (if need be), then in-patient rehab. If de-tox is not necessary, then it's simply in-patient rehab. He said that's a 30 day stay minimum. After that, depending on the specific situation, discharge comes with a very specific treatment plan -- always involving AA. It could be discharge home and AA, a step-down facility and AA, IOP and AA, a half-way house and AA, some similar type of sober living and AA, etc. This expert said, this is person A. There is no other anything other than stopping, quitting, getting better, abstinence, and living a life in recovery, because that is how they stay clean, sober and healthy, every day, one day at a time.
He said that this happens when the alcoholic/addict WANTS to get better. For themselves. They want it, more than anything in the world. It is an absolute and pure want. This is person A. They want it not to avoid jail, not to avoid getting fired, avoid getting thrown out of their house, or avoid a spouse divorcing them. He said if the addict/alcoholic chooses to get better for the wrong reasons, the efforts, the desires, etc., are inauthentic. He said, there is person A, and then there is everything and everyone else. It is one or the other. Period. Of course, he was a very avid proponent and supporter of Al-Anon, and he attended regularly, and had done so for decades.
He went on to say -- when the alcoholic/addict has a slip, you will immediately know what the truth is. Either they will stop, re-group, call their sponsor, go to a meeting, get immediately and intensely back facing the right direction and moving in the right direction of recovery and abstinence...and again, it will not be "their way" and all that...and that desire, want, effort will be the most important thing in the world, no excuses, no denial, etc. -- or the denial and excuses will start. He said that again, nothing else in the world will matter, other than getting better, again. Or another person will appear -- person B. They will want to do it their way. They will believe and convince everyone that they know, know better, can and will do it, will do it their way, they are fine and they know better, and they know what they need. It will be fact -- in their mind -- and they will speak it as fact, and will convince you or try to convince you as well. Why? Because they are no longer person A, and they are now person B and they want what they want...and at that point...what they want is to no longer get better, period. That absolute want is no longer present. It is gone. They are a new person, person B. Whether it is the alcoholic/addict using, or it's after a slip -- they are either person A, or person B. Person A is absolute, and it is not up for discussion...and then there is everyone else.
How is the alcoholic/addict going to live their life...in that moment, every day. Who are they? Who are they being?
I listened and this was so enlightening. I listened and learned and had a paradigm shift in my own thinking and mindset. After many years of "trying" everything -- you name it, I did it -- I decided to stop. That is when I got better. That moment. It was the convergence of acceptance, surrender, letting go, detachment, not enabling, no longer being a participant, no longer contributing, no longer being involved with, a partner in, any of it, the drama, chaos, turmoil, and so on. So, I then watched. Which person was my AW? Who was she going to be? Did she want to be and was she going to be person A or something/someone/anyone else? There was no discussion. Black or white. I didn't have to talk to her. I just had to watch. The answer would be and was simple, right there, immediately, and obvious. I wouldn't have to look for it or wait for it. My wife was the alcoholic who -- didn't have a problem, only occasionally drank, on a very rare occasion would drink too much, just enjoyed having a drink or two every so often, could easily have a drink or two once or twice a week, and there was nothing to talk about or address. OK, that's fine. But while untrue, a complete fabrication, I could not live with everything that resulted from her drinking. Forget about the police, the attorneys, the doctors, hospitals, therapists, and so on. Forget about destroying the entire kitchen and almost burning the house down, parking the car on the front lawn. Forget about passing out, sometimes clothed, sometimes naked, in various parts of the house, the social events where she fell down, passed out, had to go to the hospital, or simply was incoherent, belligerent, unintelligible, and/or comatose. Forget about every single thing that happened as a result of her drinking.
It is not about any of that. It is about me. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Was this the way I wanted to live my life? Is this the way I wanted to live my life.
Thank you for letting me share.
Enigmatic said
Jun 28, 2017
"Personally, I've been through it all with the disease of alcoholism and addiction."
Actually Bo, you have not. No one has. Each of us has only our own experience that we have, can hopefully learn from and grow, and eventually share what we learned and how AlAnon principles helped us in the form of our strength and hope.
Also, in AlAnon, Tradition Two suggests that we have but one authority, and that is not you, nor the "leading experts in the US"; it is a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience.
AlAnon is a group of equals, not a group where we take turns bringing in the opinions of anonymous or known "experts" to make a point. Nor is it suggested that we or anyone else but the god of our understanding knows motives, intent, or "right, sincere, authentic" way to do anything.
shrnp said
Jun 28, 2017
Addiction is not a choice and for some it really takes an illness or legal troubles for them to stop. Homelessness might do it. Some do not ever stop. I always wondered why my father did not stop drinking, truly his children were more important than his drinking. He had five children and at one time only two of us were talking to him. He had grandchildren he did not see, it really did not matter to him. He finally stopped when he was 70 years old because he had developed nueropathy in his feet and he could barely walk. It is not personal.
shrnp said
Jun 28, 2017
I agree with Paul, AA was formed because nothing else worked and the fellowship of other alcoholics and a higher power were having some successes that doctors and experts were not.
-- Edited by shrnp on Wednesday 28th of June 2017 07:50:08 AM
Iamhere said
Jun 28, 2017
PnP - I work real hard, just for today, to keep things as simple as possible. I too used to research and 'suggest' things to my A(s). When I got serious about my own sanity and serenity, and worked the program + steps, I had to stop that. My sponsor would say very gently, are their fingers broke? I would answer No, But...................................... and then she would say I was enabling because if they wanted to research about recovery, they had access to google and the internet just as I did. Pfffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt....even my best attempts to 'help' were not that - they were actually my controlling person raising up - my EGO too.
For me, and most I know who have success in AA, How it Works in Chapter 5 is the solution. My first sponsor had me memorize it my first year in recovery, and that comes into my head often. You can find it easily enough using Google - almost, if not all AA literature is available online for free.
For me, I have an addictive personality. It's always present and I actually will do all that I can to AVOID any medicine - mind/mood altering or other. I don't even take tylenol, advil, etc. because my addictive brain still says, "If one works well, three would work better." Addiction is about wanting more, more, more - now, now, now. Whether it's a mental or physical obsession/need, it works in the mind the same way. Alcoholics/addicts can justify and rationalize everything - denial and self-pity as well as blaming other people, places and things are huge blocks to success.
Others in recovery can take pills/medication as prescribed and not be affected mentally as I am. I don't envy them or wonder why - it just is and I'm OK with that. I have more exposure to recovery, relapse, treatment, counseling, alternatives, self-help, etc. than I care to even consider and none of it helps me keep my serenity/sanity, just for today. For me, it's about a daily reprieve from this disease made entirely possible by staying in my own lane and trusting a higher power, whom I prefer to call God. Any/Every time I venture out of my lane, I am putting my serenity/sanity at risk and I try hard to not do that - just for today. (((Hugs)))
Iamhere said
Jun 28, 2017
As I was writing, there are/were other posts in front of me. I too agree with Paul - there are no authorities in recovery. There are no experts either. As part of keeping my program simple, I do try to stick with program literature as all other can lead me down the, "What if...." "If only..." path.
That addictive part of me can take a book by an 'expert' and become a dog with a bone - trying to force solutions again. I'm content today working on me, and allowing others to experience life as they see fit.
hotrod said
Jun 28, 2017
Hi IAH and Paul As a follow- up to this posting I need to note that I agree completely. This is a fellowship of equals and Tradition 2 restates the fact that we have one authority- a loving HP and our leaders are simply trusted servants.
Tradiition 8 points our that our 12 Step work must be non- profesional. This is because we meet as equals share our ESH, grow and change with the process outlined by the program and HP . We are uniquely able to help each other because we have experienced the pain of the disease and responded in a like manner .
I too thought I had experienced all the disease could offer when I walked though 10 rehabs with my husband, left him returned when he entered AA and stayed-- only to have him die 6 years into sobriety, NOT SO-- when I experienced the relapse of my son into the disease after 12 years in AA and his eventual death from this disease- a whole new depth of feelings and pain surfaced. The wisdom, acceptance and compassion that grew within me as a result of these painful experiences taught me more than any expert could. We learn by sharing and experience that is why we do not give advice. As I read the ESH of others here and at meetings, I can identify but never compare with the pain another is enduring. The best I can do is offer program tools to help ease the pain and provide support.
The best way to help each other is by providing our own esh because in this manner our negative experiences can be used for positive learning for ourselves and another.
You are doing well PP
Freetime said
Jun 28, 2017
I can relate to this topic. When I first started with this program, I read all the Al-Anon literature I could get my hands on. I read the AA big book. I benefited from the "non-professional" wisdom shared in my Al-Anon meetings. It was only after my late AH passed away that I came upon more scientific literature about the "brain disease" of alcoholism.
Learning the scientific information was very helpful to me in my recovery. It got me to truly understand Step 1, and the "serenity to accept the things I cannot change." It underscored that I really had been powerless, and so had he. I'm actually glad I didn't discover this information while he was alive, as it's very likely I would have gone into "Look, honey, here's a book that explains what's wrong with you!" That would not have gone over well. So I am glad that I learned about the research at the right time for me. It helped me with the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I cannot.
Aline said
Jun 28, 2017
This is a great thread, thank you all for your shares! I know I've sometimes considered buying AA Big book for my abf (although I've already sent him the link to it online after reading the chapter "To the wives" in the Big book... Each time I considered "helping" him with the info, literature I thankfully checked my motives and whether I was trying to do something in his stead, and each time it turned out I was, because as far as I know he already has knowledge of and access to a lot of great resources...
SerenityRUS said
Jun 28, 2017
PnP .. I don't know if you have read the book Under the Influence however if you are interested in the concept of alcoholism and how it affects the brain and body. I did that for ME in terms of educating myself .. I need to understand the workings and it helps me a great deal to do that because I can follow some kind of logic to this completely illogical disease. It spoke to me and it made sense in terms of ohhh .. now I really get how sick this person is and they have a long road if they are looking to recover. That's not my side of the street .. what they do or don't do .. on them .. not me. I still am interested in lit that helps me have greater compassion and understanding for the A. I'm not inside a box in terms of Alanon lit only. My sponsor was and that worked for her .. I'm my own person and that's ok.
Hugs S :)
Iamhere said
Jun 28, 2017
I just want to add that in my quest to better understand the disease, I read anything/everything I could get my hands on. We saw countless therapists, professionals, and experienced more than 12 treatment centers. AA & Al-Anon do prefer CAL - Conference Approved Literature for a reason. It helps us relate and discuss recovery and solutions with like-minded language.
Believe me when I say that nobody will ever get sober for long-term for another person, place or thing. Each A must reach their own bottom. For me, suggestions that I needed help fell on deaf ears over and over and over again. I had to go through each and every event and experience before I got sick and tired or being sick and tired. Nobody else could ever get me to seek sobriety - even though seeds were planted. I resented each and every person who tried to 'help me' by suggesting I was a drunk and was crazy. I did not 'see' them as being helpful or supportive - I saw them as a nuisance and someone to avoid.
I could talk over and around any professional and/or therapist and then I went right back to my addictive behaviors. I was forced into treatment and counseling by my own parents and nothing worked because I was not ready to get sober. Nobody could ever make me get sober or suggest recovery to me until I was ready. In my case, it took nudges from judges. I had to hit a bottom that woke me up that I was on a fast path to death or prison. Nothing anyone else spoke to me helped including counselors, interventions, family, loved ones, friends, etc. I threw away a marriage to a lovely person as the booze was more important in my mind/body at the time.
So - there is a line in the Big Book that suggest, "No human power could have relieved me of my alcoholism, but God could and would if he were sought." THIS has been my experience as an A as well as an ALA. For me and my recovery, it is simpler (and I'm all about keeping it simple) to just focus on the literature we use in program. I've certainly ventured beyond that, but more for perspective and opinion vs. recovery.
hotrod said
Jun 28, 2017
I agree completely IAH . I love the alanon slogan that suggests that when i try too hard to analyze and understand,it leads to inaction and paralysis. I have experienced this inaction so that now i accept the wisdom of alanon and the principles presented.
I love the table card at meetings that states: "alanon spoken here". I try to do the same here at MIP
Iamhere said
Jun 28, 2017
We have a saying in the AA rooms - you are either moving forward in recovery or you are going backwards. With this disease, there is no 'resting on our laurels'. I believe this to to be true in my Al-Anon program too. I am one who unintentionally complicated so many, many things looking for the 'solution'.... It took Al-Anon for me to understand seeking solutions for others is not personal recovery - I'm still attached vs. detached.
I have a ton of books around here and I will say, for both aspects of the program, program literature speaks to me most 'pure'. It registers in my mind/heart and I find myself nodding. Parts of the other are good for reference but I struggle as I am so far from a 'square peg' trying to fit in to a 'round hole'.
We as humans are unique, fantastic, dynamic, individuals. I looked long and hard for a OSFA (One Size Fits All) solution and spent a ton of time over-analyzing everything. I honestly didn't want to accept Al-Anon mostly because I had experience in the other 'half' of the program. I fought recovery for me long and hard and wasted a ton of time - I'm grateful I finally admitted I was powerless over this disease in others, and embraced Al-Anon recovery!
milkwood said
Jun 28, 2017
Hello PP,
You are sounding strong and clear, yay!!
One thought that came to my mind as I read to the end of your post was that if I had told my husband that I couldn't live like this in five years time I suspect he might have thought that five more years of drinking would do just fine (and that he'd probably be dead anyway by the time I left). I found that I had to keep my messages about me and very much in the here and now if I could.
I could relate to AH's resistance to being told what he needed when I imagined what my reaction was likely to be if he told me how to drive!! When I talked to my husband it helped if I could keep my focus on me, about what I needed to do for my health and well-being.
Jerry F said
Jun 28, 2017
Mahalo to my MIP Ohana (family) for your ESH as expressed here. It isn't perfect and it is exactly what I need to hear today and keep hearing tomorrow as I so choose. What comes to mind and experience for me is the importance of sponsorship including the program events ("program") I choose to attend "WITH AND OPEN MIND" as a main condition. My ego and pride keeps my mind and spirit closed thinking only I have the solutions resulting from each and every event that has touched me over the past 39 years of recovery. Of course that is not true. My latest meeting was this morning and I went to it not because I was "had to" and because I was "lead to". Being here now for the same reason gives me more assurance that I will be a positive, productive piece of my community in spite of what my community knows about me. I am being supportive as I am also being supported. I remember times I was choosing to leave the program and then faced the fear of trying to keep what I had which was given to me without payment other than for myself need.
In early program from many sources including therapy and college and literature and mostly a Power Greater than Myself who led me to the sources I accepted the need as mentioned in the closing of our face to face groups. "If you keep an OPEN MIND you will find help" and that was my first endeavor...Keeping and OPEN MIND. I learned how and why my sponsorship and the fellowship said to me what they said to me and how they said it what was their intentions. They had what I didn't have and they wanted me to experience it and then embrace it as I could.
Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...those who manufacture, produce, distribute and sell it know that. It alters reality and sells us the altered reality as better than any other we would desire. As a mind and mood are also part and parcel to my behaviors self esteem it owns me totally which is what happened to me. I could not do anything other than with the disease of alcoholism...I didn't know how and didn't know that I didn't know. I could not dream up a program of recovery I had to have you all and all other brothers and sisters (mostly sisters) I heard and read from in order to have something I could duplicate once I had the desire to have what you now have and I had to want it. My experiences before, during and after very closely duplicate Bo's share here...close but not exactly and God works with the tools God has without stalling the work. One of the things I fully believe in recovery is that Humility is being teachable and that God will do for me what I cannot do for myself for myself at that moment.
I formerly carried and attitude that I was fearless based upon false evidence until my sponsor related to me and a sponsee that what he fears most is the feeling of hopelessness (the absence of a power greater than himself). As long as I have the fellowship with the willingness to share their ESH without ego and pride I will not have as deep an emotion of fear. The opposite of fear is love. Thank you for your love...I leave mine with MIP. ((((hugs))))
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 30, 2017
Well, I think that there is nothing but good ESH here! We may not all have the same ideas on how this can work, but the common denominator here IMHO, is that the addicted person MUST WANT to get better. There may be drugs that help facilitate healing, but having the support from AA or therapists or both, and the OPENNESS to accept help is what is key. Of course, one cannot control or cure the alcoholic, so my approach to my AH was based on NO EXPECTATIONS. And I even explained to him that is where I was coming from... all in a loving, supportive way. I could not have done this even a month ago, due to my bitterness!! It is my work with my program that has enabled this!
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 30, 2017
Serenity - Thank you for the book reference... I am going to look that up now... b/c I truly believe that alcoholism begins as a choice, but due to chemical changes in the brain and neuroplasticity (the brain's capability to rewire itself in response to both internal and external environmental factors), it soon becomes an actual disease of the brain... and can and should, be treated like a disease (just like Type II Diabetes, Bi-Polar etc) by the medical community. To borrow a well-known phrase, "When we know better, we do better!"
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Friday 30th of June 2017 11:02:17 PM
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Friday 30th of June 2017 11:02:38 PM
Iamhere said
Jul 1, 2017
PnP - I would vehemently disagree that alcoholism is a choice.....there is not any human being I know that would choose to become reliant on a mind/mood altering substance. For me, from the first drink I ever took I felt 'normal' for the first time. I just wrote another post in another thread that after 30 years of being sober and working the program, I have no doubt that I was born an alcoholic and my mind/body were just waiting for the first drink to 'come alive'....
I know no alcoholic that would suggest it begins as a choice. For all that I know, as they became of age, they had a drink/two/more. Many start out like earth people, social drinking. Many don't.....the disease is called a disease for a reason - I have sat with many people that were out of their minds wondering why they could not get/stay sober, many of whom have passed.
shrnp said
Jul 1, 2017
I don't think that we should be discussing the science of alcoholism. I am sure there are a lot of lectures and books about it but that is not the principle that AA was founded for. There is a line that gets crossed in Alanon when you start talking about alcoholics and there are recovering alcoholics/drug addicts in a group like myself. You are literally talking about me or someone like me, and you are right that there is a mental health aspect to addiction because many people self medicate. People like me do not come to Alanon to talk about brain chemistry. Sure, there is the saying "take what you want and leave the rest" but this conversation is getting out of line when you keep making diagnosis to make yourself feel better trying to prove something that is personal. If it makes you feel better that is great but you cannot expect other people to not voice their opinion or say this subject is not for Alanon.
-- Edited by shrnp on Saturday 1st of July 2017 03:58:42 PM
hotrod said
Jul 1, 2017
I agree Sharon
PosiesandPuppies said
Jul 2, 2017
Then I apologize for having/voicing my opinion.
DavidG said
Jul 2, 2017
Hmmm... Maybe at a F2F Alanon meeting, there would not be time to discuss the nature of the illness in great depth.
However here, there is unlimited space and time.
P&P... I appreciated the topic you raised. For the life of me I cannot see how you would be breaching Alanon principals.
In my alcoholic home I was closed down constantly- not just my emotions- but any opinion I had too... forbidden.
I DO NOT see your postings, and the many responses being in breach of Tradition 10- not at all.
DavidG.
DavidG said
Jul 2, 2017
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
I am going to explain to him that I know I can't control this disease, but It cuts to the bone knowing that he is slowly killing himself. I am also going to remind him that my Al-Anon program has shown me that 'Nothing Changes, If Nothing Changes,' and I can't see myself living this life 5 or 10 years from now. My only goal for this is that he knows about options. What he does about it is his choice. It must be his choice.
Ma'am... this is the key to your posting on the thread you started here...
A classic Step One... with footsteps...
hotrod said
Jul 2, 2017
PP the discussion has moved completely from your original statement to another regarding reading outside literature in order to understand how alcohol works on the brain, No one suggested that this was not acceptable and that your approach was wrong. I do believe that the discussion took a different turn and that was why people (Myself included) voiced concern the following statement on the thread
but this conversation is getting out of line when you keep making diagnosis to make yourself feel better
Alanon suggests that we should keep the focus on ourselves and attempt to see why we do what we do (examine our motives) and say what we say--- even with out alochol being involved
Bo said
Jul 2, 2017
DavidG wrote:
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
I am going to explain to him that I know I can't control this disease, but It cuts to the bone knowing that he is slowly killing himself. I am also going to remind him that my Al-Anon program has shown me that 'Nothing Changes, If Nothing Changes,' and I can't see myself living this life 5 or 10 years from now. My only goal for this is that he knows about options. What he does about it is his choice. It must be his choice.
Ma'am... this is the key to your posting on the thread you started here...
A classic Step One... with footsteps...
Thank you for the reminder David. This was always a stumbling block for me in my early days of al-anon and recovery. Trying to apply and use logical with an illogical person. Thanks again.
KT2015 said
Jul 2, 2017
Hey PnP
I really wanted my AH to know certain things when I started Al Anon too. When I focus on the Alcoholic my life becomes unmanageable each and every time. One night I called a friend from my face to face group and I kept talking about my AH how he needs to understand this, and he needs to understand that about his drinking so that I could then help him seek support. She very kindly pointed out that he's a capable adult with just as much access to information as me. If he wanted to find out about alcoholism and if his drinking was a problem he could find that out just as easily as I did. Then she calmly brought the focus back to me. I found it a little embarrassing at first but I realized she was right. I know you want to help him. I know you want him to know you might leave and I can completely relate to where you are coming from. I thought my AH chose his drinking over me for a long time and it hurt a lot. But as I worked the program and took the focus off of him and put it back on me I have changed my opinion about his drinking and other's. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning thinking "I'm going to ruin everyone's day today by getting wasted" Now that I have detached more and been able to see my AH from a bit of an emotional distance I can really see how he can't control it. Once he starts it is very difficult if not impossible for him to stop. I don't have that reaction to alcohol but I see it in my AH. And I can have empathy for him. I actually think "wow that must be hard" and I also am thankful that I don't have such a terrible disease.
I used to threaten to leave all the time. Tell him if he doesn't get better I'm out but I didn't actually leave and so it didn't really mean much. I've come to realize that he knows all too well that I may leave he doesn't need a reminder, or a warning or anything. I've said more than enough about my dissatisfaction with his drinking and now I don't threaten to leave at all. I've decided that if I leave I will just make the decision and peacefully leave. If he could change he would but he can't at least not right now. So each day I try to focus on what went well and if I am happy. I've built quite a nice life that isn't completely wrapped up in him. Surprisingly our lives have become much more peaceful. I've learn to adapt myself to what is happening in a day instead of fighting against it. I have hobbies, and friends, and meetings, and work and family that fulfil me and build me up. I have seen positive changes in him the more progress I make it rubs off somehow and then it's really tempting to focus on him again and my life soon becomes unmanageable. I have to stop and take a deep breath and ask myself what I need right there in that moment. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Junenine said
Jul 2, 2017
Iamhere wrote:
PnP - I would vehemently disagree that alcoholism is a choice.....there is not any human being I know that would choose to become reliant on a mind/mood altering substance. For me, from the first drink I ever took I felt 'normal' for the first time. I just wrote another post in another thread that after 30 years of being sober and working the program, I have no doubt that I was born an alcoholic and my mind/body were just waiting for the first drink to 'come alive'....
I know no alcoholic that would suggest it begins as a choice. For all that I know, as they became of age, they had a drink/two/more. Many start out like earth people, social drinking. Many don't.....the disease is called a disease for a reason - I have sat with many people that were out of their minds wondering why they could not get/stay sober, many of whom have passed.
thank you for sharing this, Iamhere. i've been wrestling with this issue (the foundation of everything, really)... and your description perfectly matches the way my ex describes his experience with alcohol. it's a lot for a novice to fully understand, with all its implications and its cunning and baffling manifestations.
Iamhere said
Jul 2, 2017
My experience here at MIP is that we align as best we can with Al-Anon traditions and guidelines, yet not so much that we edit posts, or even dissuade outside literature. However, when we (Al-Anon members) stray too far from our primary purpose, there is a greater risk of slippage and disagreement - hence why healthy Al-Anon groups stick with approved literature, refrain from discussing outside influences, etc.
I fully understand how a loved one does not understand the disease of alcoholism. I truly do get it. In spite of the pain, tragedy, chaos and insanity I experienced before finding AA, I feel now and always have that I have benefited from that life experience in my Al-Anon program. For an alcoholic or addict, taking a drink/drug is as natural as cheating on a diet, biting fingernails, smoking cigarettes, etc. It's an obsession of the mind and a compulsion of the body. It's not a choice.
I too read outside literature and with each contemplated how best o 'serve it up' for my loved ones for a long while. What I did not see and did not want to see is those actions are detrimental to my recovery, and me still trying to lead with my will instead of surrendering. I will be the first to admit I get a bit touchy when posts are more about what the alcoholic is doing that how we are working recovery, especially if they are condescending or blaming or just mean/nasty. It hurts my heart in ways that are beyond words.
I know today that I can not teach anyone how that obsession/compulsion feels or drives another. I also know today that there are many who will never accept, understand or believe that it's not a choice. What I can say is my only way to truly restore my sanity and find some level of peace was to truly surrender and own what powerlessness means.
I embrace everyone's choice to seek support and help however they feel the need to yet I also believe that it's important to realize that some of the outside resources may not align with what our program suggests we do for our recovery.
shrnp said
Jul 3, 2017
I am sorry, if I did not explain what I said further. I agree that the subject had gotten slightly changed, and I am sorry if I did not word what I said in a better way. If you read the big book it begins by explaining how Bill and his friends began AA. They were successful intelligent men. They talked to doctors to try and figure out why they drank and how could they could stop drinking. One man in particular had been in rehab at a medical facility, and as soon as he got out he started drinking again. This baffled them that the medical community could not help cure them. That was when they began bible studies and found that God and their fellowship of other alcoholics had a better chance of keeping them sober than the doctors.
If you go to a rehab facility they teach you brain chemistry, and what happens to your brain cells after abusing drugs or alcohol for a longtime. AA does not do that they do not claim anything medically. Not because it is untrue but because the program is about your HP and what you can learn from other people because of their experience.
el-cee said
Jul 3, 2017
I think I must try hard to remember that this is an Alanon forum and really anger, control, bitterness towards the alcoholic is a big part of this. Its how I came in to Alanon, surely its how we all come in, that's the main symptom for us Alanoners, bitterness, anger, resentful, controlling etc and all with no or little understanding of the nature of the disease. We are only experts on the horrible symptoms of this disease.
I remember going to my first AA convention with women from my Alanon group, I had been in Alanon about 5 months. They told me it would be good for my recovery to listen to the experience from the point of view of the drinker. So I went and I sat there and got angrier and angrier. Afterwards I told the women that I cant believe how ignorant the alcoholics are of what we have been through, how its all about their pain and how bad things got for them and don't they know what they have put their family through? Do they have a clue of what this disease feels like day after day and SOBER!!!! I could hardly contain how angry I felt.
It was interesting to me that some of the women agreed with me and then others, (today I can see it was those truly working this) told me that its impossible to fully see from each others perspective and we are all doing the best with what we have got in this day and as we progress in our own recovery then we get more awareness and understanding and then we see differently one day at a time.
We could spend a long time insisting we see from our own perspective, Ive spent my whole life insisting everybody see the world through my eyes and my perspective.
Through attending meetings, working the steps, sponsor, literature, reading of other things that have interested me through becoming spiritual. All this got me the understanding and awareness I needed to open my mind enough to see that this disease is cunning and baffling and part of that obscures any inkling of the pain the other person is in.
P an P thinks its a choice, so did I and so did every one of us here at some point, I'm sure. Its hard to not see it as a choice as you listen to the lies and excuses the drinker has to go drink, I was left at home with three kids and I believed every single time he was choosing to drink over me and over our beautiful kids and over our life and family and slowly but surely the hopes and dreams that seemed so do-able slip away. If we are all looking to understand each other then its important that double winners try to understand the pain from this place. It really really hurts and it breeds anger, resentment, hate, the whole shebang. It also takes a slice of self worth over and over again until I truly believed I was just not good enough for him to chose not to drink.
It took me a long time to accept that alcoholism was a disease, I thought that was an excuse and I also thought it gave permission to continue so I resisted for a while inside my mind but I trusted Alanon so deeply so soon that I let in each and every idea on some level and wow the benefits to me of that have been a miracle to me. The compassion forgiveness understanding peace I have got is amazing and I know I will keep getting more and more of that good stuff as I keep going.
Its funny to me because I spent years unwilling and unable to see from the perspective of the drinker and then I could see and then I spent quite a lot of time unwilling to see from the perspective of the Alanon person. I suppose its about balance and opening up our minds to the point of view of people, just people where they are at in this day. Step 1 - I am powerless over ...other people's journeys and there view of the world today.
-- Edited by el-cee on Monday 3rd of July 2017 01:26:57 AM
Bo said
Jul 3, 2017
Very good post -- thank you for reminding me, and sharing your perspective.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jul 3, 2017
I wasn't going to post again, but in waiting a few days, I realized that is my codie behavior... I get my feelings hurt and I retreat... but I harbor resentment. So to break that cycle...
I think that there are persons here that are "stuck" on me claiming that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease. That isn't entirely what I said. Here is my quote:
"I truly believe that alcoholism begins as a choice, but due to chemical changes in the brain and neuroplasticity (the brain's capability to rewire itself in response to both internal and external environmental factors), it soon becomes an actual disease of the brain... and can and should, be treated like a disease (just like Type II Diabetes, Bi-Polar etc) by the medical community. To borrow a well-known phrase, 'When we know better, we do better!'"
As you can see, my opinion states that it BEGINS as a choice... whether the first drink is in your teens or as an adult... whether you have addiction "genes" or not... somewhere the person has to make a conscience decision to take that first drink. What happens after seems to be a combination of things that is different for every person - but the commonality is that there ARE chemical changes occurring in the brain of the drinker.
The point really, was that the brain is an organ of the body that is just now becoming fully explored. There are many neurological/chemical processes going on that the medical community are just now beginning to truly understand. When understanding that, it is much easier for the non-alcoholic to discard the "antiquated" thinking of "it's a choice" and accept this as a disease, plain, but not so simple - the brain is THE most complex organ of the body. I think with better understanding of this, it is easier for the newbie in Al-Anon to keep the focus on themselves... b/c at first it is very easy to fall back into the "why are they doing this? Why can't they just stop for me/family/kids?" type of thinking. It is hard for the newbie to wrap their heads around this family disease until they find peace from working on themselves through Al-Anon steps and principles... and that DOES take time.
BTW, I DID run this by my sponsor to kind of double-check my motives, and she told me, "As long as you do this with NO EXPECTATIONS, and remember that if he truly wanted to, he could take the time to research this." I was told if I posted this I would be met with some resistance, but I never expected this much push-back!
Thank you, David, for understanding my true intent of my post.
In conclusion, I am NOT sorry for having/voicing my opinion. I do feel bad that perhaps it may have been misconstrued. I am doing what I need to do for MY health, no one else. Take what you like, and please leave the rest. Thank you to all those who contribute to this forum... I always seem to find what I need to help ME find my sanity.
DavidG said
Jul 3, 2017
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
Thank you, David, for understanding my true intent of my post. .
I have been reading a lot lately. Mostly my codie books, but also the "Rethinking Drinking" series by Linda Burlison. These books speak to me, because I have a science background, and I have always loved science. Show me some facts/research and I can relate much better. Probably why religion has always been a sticking point for me... but I regress.
It has been said that AA takes a hard-line to recovery assisted by medication. After all the research, I am not sure why. Why wouldn't someone want to use all modalities to help them recover? Anyway, I decided to buy the "How to Guide" in the series for my husband. BEFORE I bought it, I tried to use my Al-Anon tools and asked myself, "Why am I doing this?"
I came to the realization that since my AH thinks he is stuck b/c he can't enter a program (due to missed work), and can't avail himself of work-offered help (afraid he might get fired - although that is illegal), and has tried to do it himself cold- turkey (without success)... he doesn't know, or hasn't spoken about medication facilitated recovery. And certainly he didn't get anything from his last hospital stay except a bunch of papers on alcohol abuse and programs (none of which talked about medication). So I chose to buy this book knowing that:
1. I cannot make him read it, and shouldn't have any expectations that he will.
2. All his "reasons" for not getting help may just be excuses.
3. That I have come to the point that I don't want to live this life anymore... so this is my "last-ditch" effort in preserving our marriage. It is not up to me if he will take this path and embrace it. In all probability he will never even open this book. But if there is a chance that he will and then will go and have an honest conversation with his doctor, then at least I will feel like I am not enabling him to slowly kill himself.
I KNOW that I can't control this outcome. In examining my "motives," I began to see that giving my AH this information actually makes ME feel better - regardless of what he does with it. Because he is the type of person who doesn't read... he literally doesn't have the desire to expand his mind. Not sure if that is an addiction behavior or one that is is just him, but he won't actively seek other options. Maybe it's too much work... don't know, don't even really care. I just know that if he chooses to do nothing and things continue as they are, I can't live this way. He's not physically abusive and my kid is one year from going to college... so sometimes I think I can hold on. But then I remember something someone posted as a response to someone... "Think of your life 10, 15, 20 years from now... are you willing to be living this same life?" (paraphrase). And I've decided that despite all the financial hardships, I cannot. I am just not happy - not that it's his job to make me happy, but he doesn't have to make my life a miserable hell either!
I am going to explain to him that I know I can't control this disease, but It cuts to the bone knowing that he is slowly killing himself. I am also going to remind him that my Al-Anon program has shown me that 'Nothing Changes, If Nothing Changes,' and I can't see myself living this life 5 or 10 years from now. My only goal for this is that he knows about options. What he does about it is his choice. It must be his choice.
Good to hear that medication has the possibility of working... but I know that he has to work on his inner demons as well to find long-term sobriety. I am not interested in riding that not so merry-go-round, so only time will tell.
I think science has its place but for me the true experts are alcoholics. Have you listened to AA speakers on youtube? I get so much understanding through listening to these men and women whose lives seemed completely hopeless, many of them at deaths door and they got recovery and have serenity at a level I can only dream of. Its inspiring to me.
One of the founders of AA got sobriety after being a patient of Carl Jung, I think his family had money and threw lots and lots of money at his alcoholism and eventually Carl Jung told him, Im sorry there is nothing I can do for you and he let him go and it was those very words that got that man recovery. It seems to be that when everyone else stops taking responsibility for the drinking and the disease and places it entirely where it belongs, in the hands of the drinker themselves, then there is hope.
Its such a tricky concept to get our heads around. We are brought up to help people, helping makes us a good person!!!! and then we are faced with a disease like alcoholism and 'helping' in the conventional sense is actually hurting. I had to really evaluate what helping actually was and my deep rooted motives for it. It was eye opening to find out that the reasons for my helping were mainly fear based, and not only fear for the drinker but fear for me, my ego was firmly in the middle of all my faulty thinking and tbh still is a lot of the time. The only difference now is my awareness of it has taken some of the power away and I can pause now much more easily before taking action.
Personally, I've been through it all with the disease of alcoholism and addiction. Professionally, I've dealt with this as well, with clients, their children, etc. In addition, I've attended seminars, classes, sessions, IOP family nights, counselling, therapy, and in the real world, day to day.
That said, I once sat in a seminar with one of the leading experts in the US and he opened and closed his talk with the following commentary -- he said when an alcoholic/addicts wants to get better, truly, sincerely, authentically, without any question or discussion wants to get better...they will do anything and everything possible. Period. They won't do it "their way" and there will be nothing they won't do. They won't have any excuses or denial. Their efforts will be 100% focused and centered on stopping, quitting, getting better. There efforts, intentions, and actions will be obvious and won't be up for discussion. In addition, they will have already surrendered their will, their desire as to how to do it, and will do everything, not what they want. They will embrace all avenues of efforts and recovery, do what professionals suggest, follow professional's' advice, and not "fight" or "oppose" any option. The expert said this will (usually) look like detox (if need be), then in-patient rehab. If de-tox is not necessary, then it's simply in-patient rehab. He said that's a 30 day stay minimum. After that, depending on the specific situation, discharge comes with a very specific treatment plan -- always involving AA. It could be discharge home and AA, a step-down facility and AA, IOP and AA, a half-way house and AA, some similar type of sober living and AA, etc. This expert said, this is person A. There is no other anything other than stopping, quitting, getting better, abstinence, and living a life in recovery, because that is how they stay clean, sober and healthy, every day, one day at a time.
He said that this happens when the alcoholic/addict WANTS to get better. For themselves. They want it, more than anything in the world. It is an absolute and pure want. This is person A. They want it not to avoid jail, not to avoid getting fired, avoid getting thrown out of their house, or avoid a spouse divorcing them. He said if the addict/alcoholic chooses to get better for the wrong reasons, the efforts, the desires, etc., are inauthentic. He said, there is person A, and then there is everything and everyone else. It is one or the other. Period. Of course, he was a very avid proponent and supporter of Al-Anon, and he attended regularly, and had done so for decades.
He went on to say -- when the alcoholic/addict has a slip, you will immediately know what the truth is. Either they will stop, re-group, call their sponsor, go to a meeting, get immediately and intensely back facing the right direction and moving in the right direction of recovery and abstinence...and again, it will not be "their way" and all that...and that desire, want, effort will be the most important thing in the world, no excuses, no denial, etc. -- or the denial and excuses will start. He said that again, nothing else in the world will matter, other than getting better, again. Or another person will appear -- person B. They will want to do it their way. They will believe and convince everyone that they know, know better, can and will do it, will do it their way, they are fine and they know better, and they know what they need. It will be fact -- in their mind -- and they will speak it as fact, and will convince you or try to convince you as well. Why? Because they are no longer person A, and they are now person B and they want what they want...and at that point...what they want is to no longer get better, period. That absolute want is no longer present. It is gone. They are a new person, person B. Whether it is the alcoholic/addict using, or it's after a slip -- they are either person A, or person B. Person A is absolute, and it is not up for discussion...and then there is everyone else.
How is the alcoholic/addict going to live their life...in that moment, every day. Who are they? Who are they being?
I listened and this was so enlightening. I listened and learned and had a paradigm shift in my own thinking and mindset. After many years of "trying" everything -- you name it, I did it -- I decided to stop. That is when I got better. That moment. It was the convergence of acceptance, surrender, letting go, detachment, not enabling, no longer being a participant, no longer contributing, no longer being involved with, a partner in, any of it, the drama, chaos, turmoil, and so on. So, I then watched. Which person was my AW? Who was she going to be? Did she want to be and was she going to be person A or something/someone/anyone else? There was no discussion. Black or white. I didn't have to talk to her. I just had to watch. The answer would be and was simple, right there, immediately, and obvious. I wouldn't have to look for it or wait for it. My wife was the alcoholic who -- didn't have a problem, only occasionally drank, on a very rare occasion would drink too much, just enjoyed having a drink or two every so often, could easily have a drink or two once or twice a week, and there was nothing to talk about or address. OK, that's fine. But while untrue, a complete fabrication, I could not live with everything that resulted from her drinking. Forget about the police, the attorneys, the doctors, hospitals, therapists, and so on. Forget about destroying the entire kitchen and almost burning the house down, parking the car on the front lawn. Forget about passing out, sometimes clothed, sometimes naked, in various parts of the house, the social events where she fell down, passed out, had to go to the hospital, or simply was incoherent, belligerent, unintelligible, and/or comatose. Forget about every single thing that happened as a result of her drinking.
It is not about any of that. It is about me. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Was this the way I wanted to live my life? Is this the way I wanted to live my life.
Thank you for letting me share.
Actually Bo, you have not. No one has. Each of us has only our own experience that we have, can hopefully learn from and grow, and eventually share what we learned and how AlAnon principles helped us in the form of our strength and hope.
Also, in AlAnon, Tradition Two suggests that we have but one authority, and that is not you, nor the "leading experts in the US"; it is a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience.
AlAnon is a group of equals, not a group where we take turns bringing in the opinions of anonymous or known "experts" to make a point. Nor is it suggested that we or anyone else but the god of our understanding knows motives, intent, or "right, sincere, authentic" way to do anything.
I agree with Paul, AA was formed because nothing else worked and the fellowship of other alcoholics and a higher power were having some successes that doctors and experts were not.
-- Edited by shrnp on Wednesday 28th of June 2017 07:50:08 AM
For me, and most I know who have success in AA, How it Works in Chapter 5 is the solution. My first sponsor had me memorize it my first year in recovery, and that comes into my head often. You can find it easily enough using Google - almost, if not all AA literature is available online for free.
For me, I have an addictive personality. It's always present and I actually will do all that I can to AVOID any medicine - mind/mood altering or other. I don't even take tylenol, advil, etc. because my addictive brain still says, "If one works well, three would work better." Addiction is about wanting more, more, more - now, now, now. Whether it's a mental or physical obsession/need, it works in the mind the same way. Alcoholics/addicts can justify and rationalize everything - denial and self-pity as well as blaming other people, places and things are huge blocks to success.
Others in recovery can take pills/medication as prescribed and not be affected mentally as I am. I don't envy them or wonder why - it just is and I'm OK with that. I have more exposure to recovery, relapse, treatment, counseling, alternatives, self-help, etc. than I care to even consider and none of it helps me keep my serenity/sanity, just for today. For me, it's about a daily reprieve from this disease made entirely possible by staying in my own lane and trusting a higher power, whom I prefer to call God. Any/Every time I venture out of my lane, I am putting my serenity/sanity at risk and I try hard to not do that - just for today. (((Hugs)))
That addictive part of me can take a book by an 'expert' and become a dog with a bone - trying to force solutions again. I'm content today working on me, and allowing others to experience life as they see fit.
Hi IAH and Paul As a follow- up to this posting I need to note that I agree completely. This is a fellowship of equals and Tradition 2 restates the fact that we have one authority- a loving HP and our leaders are simply trusted servants.
Tradiition 8 points our that our 12 Step work must be non- profesional. This is because we meet as equals share our ESH, grow and change with the process outlined by the program and HP . We are uniquely able to help each other because we have experienced the pain of the disease and responded in a like manner .
I too thought I had experienced all the disease could offer when I walked though 10 rehabs with my husband, left him returned when he entered AA and stayed-- only to have him die 6 years into sobriety, NOT SO-- when I experienced the relapse of my son into the disease after 12 years in AA and his eventual death from this disease- a whole new depth of feelings and pain surfaced. The wisdom, acceptance and compassion that grew within me as a result of these painful experiences taught me more than any expert could. We learn by sharing and experience that is why we do not give advice. As I read the ESH of others here and at meetings, I can identify but never compare with the pain another is enduring. The best I can do is offer program tools to help ease the pain and provide support.
The best way to help each other is by providing our own esh because in this manner our negative experiences can be used for positive learning for ourselves and another.
You are doing well PP
I can relate to this topic. When I first started with this program, I read all the Al-Anon literature I could get my hands on. I read the AA big book. I benefited from the "non-professional" wisdom shared in my Al-Anon meetings. It was only after my late AH passed away that I came upon more scientific literature about the "brain disease" of alcoholism.
Learning the scientific information was very helpful to me in my recovery. It got me to truly understand Step 1, and the "serenity to accept the things I cannot change." It underscored that I really had been powerless, and so had he. I'm actually glad I didn't discover this information while he was alive, as it's very likely I would have gone into "Look, honey, here's a book that explains what's wrong with you!" That would not have gone over well. So I am glad that I learned about the research at the right time for me. It helped me with the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I cannot.
Hugs S :)
Believe me when I say that nobody will ever get sober for long-term for another person, place or thing. Each A must reach their own bottom. For me, suggestions that I needed help fell on deaf ears over and over and over again. I had to go through each and every event and experience before I got sick and tired or being sick and tired. Nobody else could ever get me to seek sobriety - even though seeds were planted. I resented each and every person who tried to 'help me' by suggesting I was a drunk and was crazy. I did not 'see' them as being helpful or supportive - I saw them as a nuisance and someone to avoid.
I could talk over and around any professional and/or therapist and then I went right back to my addictive behaviors. I was forced into treatment and counseling by my own parents and nothing worked because I was not ready to get sober. Nobody could ever make me get sober or suggest recovery to me until I was ready. In my case, it took nudges from judges. I had to hit a bottom that woke me up that I was on a fast path to death or prison. Nothing anyone else spoke to me helped including counselors, interventions, family, loved ones, friends, etc. I threw away a marriage to a lovely person as the booze was more important in my mind/body at the time.
So - there is a line in the Big Book that suggest, "No human power could have relieved me of my alcoholism, but God could and would if he were sought." THIS has been my experience as an A as well as an ALA. For me and my recovery, it is simpler (and I'm all about keeping it simple) to just focus on the literature we use in program. I've certainly ventured beyond that, but more for perspective and opinion vs. recovery.
I agree completely IAH . I love the alanon slogan that suggests that when i try too hard to analyze and understand,it leads to inaction and paralysis. I have experienced this inaction so that now i accept the wisdom of alanon and the principles presented.
I love the table card at meetings that states: "alanon spoken here". I try to do the same here at MIP
I have a ton of books around here and I will say, for both aspects of the program, program literature speaks to me most 'pure'. It registers in my mind/heart and I find myself nodding. Parts of the other are good for reference but I struggle as I am so far from a 'square peg' trying to fit in to a 'round hole'.
We as humans are unique, fantastic, dynamic, individuals. I looked long and hard for a OSFA (One Size Fits All) solution and spent a ton of time over-analyzing everything. I honestly didn't want to accept Al-Anon mostly because I had experience in the other 'half' of the program. I fought recovery for me long and hard and wasted a ton of time - I'm grateful I finally admitted I was powerless over this disease in others, and embraced Al-Anon recovery!
You are sounding strong and clear, yay!!
One thought that came to my mind as I read to the end of your post was that if I had told my husband that I couldn't live like this in five years time I suspect he might have thought that five more years of drinking would do just fine (and that he'd probably be dead anyway by the time I left). I found that I had to keep my messages about me and very much in the here and now if I could.
I could relate to AH's resistance to being told what he needed when I imagined what my reaction was likely to be if he told me how to drive!! When I talked to my husband it helped if I could keep my focus on me, about what I needed to do for my health and well-being.
Mahalo to my MIP Ohana (family) for your ESH as expressed here. It isn't perfect and it is exactly what I need to hear today and keep hearing tomorrow as I so choose. What comes to mind and experience for me is the importance of sponsorship including the program events ("program") I choose to attend "WITH AND OPEN MIND" as a main condition. My ego and pride keeps my mind and spirit closed thinking only I have the solutions resulting from each and every event that has touched me over the past 39 years of recovery. Of course that is not true. My latest meeting was this morning and I went to it not because I was "had to" and because I was "lead to". Being here now for the same reason gives me more assurance that I will be a positive, productive piece of my community in spite of what my community knows about me. I am being supportive as I am also being supported. I remember times I was choosing to leave the program and then faced the fear of trying to keep what I had which was given to me without payment other than for myself need.
In early program from many sources including therapy and college and literature and mostly a Power Greater than Myself who led me to the sources I accepted the need as mentioned in the closing of our face to face groups. "If you keep an OPEN MIND you will find help" and that was my first endeavor...Keeping and OPEN MIND. I learned how and why my sponsorship and the fellowship said to me what they said to me and how they said it what was their intentions. They had what I didn't have and they wanted me to experience it and then embrace it as I could.
Alcohol is a mind and mood altering chemical...those who manufacture, produce, distribute and sell it know that. It alters reality and sells us the altered reality as better than any other we would desire. As a mind and mood are also part and parcel to my behaviors self esteem it owns me totally which is what happened to me. I could not do anything other than with the disease of alcoholism...I didn't know how and didn't know that I didn't know. I could not dream up a program of recovery I had to have you all and all other brothers and sisters (mostly sisters) I heard and read from in order to have something I could duplicate once I had the desire to have what you now have and I had to want it. My experiences before, during and after very closely duplicate Bo's share here...close but not exactly and God works with the tools God has without stalling the work. One of the things I fully believe in recovery is that Humility is being teachable and that God will do for me what I cannot do for myself for myself at that moment.
I formerly carried and attitude that I was fearless based upon false evidence until my sponsor related to me and a sponsee that what he fears most is the feeling of hopelessness (the absence of a power greater than himself). As long as I have the fellowship with the willingness to share their ESH without ego and pride I will not have as deep an emotion of fear. The opposite of fear is love. Thank you for your love...I leave mine with MIP. ((((hugs))))
Serenity - Thank you for the book reference... I am going to look that up now... b/c I truly believe that alcoholism begins as a choice, but due to chemical changes in the brain and neuroplasticity (the brain's capability to rewire itself in response to both internal and external environmental factors), it soon becomes an actual disease of the brain... and can and should, be treated like a disease (just like Type II Diabetes, Bi-Polar etc) by the medical community. To borrow a well-known phrase, "When we know better, we do better!"
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Friday 30th of June 2017 11:02:17 PM
-- Edited by PosiesandPuppies on Friday 30th of June 2017 11:02:38 PM
I know no alcoholic that would suggest it begins as a choice. For all that I know, as they became of age, they had a drink/two/more. Many start out like earth people, social drinking. Many don't.....the disease is called a disease for a reason - I have sat with many people that were out of their minds wondering why they could not get/stay sober, many of whom have passed.
I don't think that we should be discussing the science of alcoholism. I am sure there are a lot of lectures and books about it but that is not the principle that AA was founded for. There is a line that gets crossed in Alanon when you start talking about alcoholics and there are recovering alcoholics/drug addicts in a group like myself. You are literally talking about me or someone like me, and you are right that there is a mental health aspect to addiction because many people self medicate. People like me do not come to Alanon to talk about brain chemistry. Sure, there is the saying "take what you want and leave the rest" but this conversation is getting out of line when you keep making diagnosis to make yourself feel better trying to prove something that is personal. If it makes you feel better that is great but you cannot expect other people to not voice their opinion or say this subject is not for Alanon.
-- Edited by shrnp on Saturday 1st of July 2017 03:58:42 PM
Hmmm... Maybe at a F2F Alanon meeting, there would not be time to discuss the nature of the illness in great depth.
However here, there is unlimited space and time.
P&P... I appreciated the topic you raised. For the life of me I cannot see how you would be breaching Alanon principals.
In my alcoholic home I was closed down constantly- not just my emotions- but any opinion I had too... forbidden.
I DO NOT see your postings, and the many responses being in breach of Tradition 10- not at all.
DavidG.
Ma'am... this is the key to your posting on the thread you started here...
A classic Step One... with footsteps...
PP the discussion has moved completely from your original statement to another regarding reading outside literature in order to understand how alcohol works on the brain, No one suggested that this was not acceptable and that your approach was wrong.
I do believe that the discussion took a different turn and that was why people (Myself included) voiced concern the following statement on the thread
but this conversation is getting out of line when you keep making diagnosis to make yourself feel better
Alanon suggests that we should keep the focus on ourselves and attempt to see why we do what we do (examine our motives) and say what we say--- even with out alochol being involved
Thank you for the reminder David. This was always a stumbling block for me in my early days of al-anon and recovery. Trying to apply and use logical with an illogical person. Thanks again.
I really wanted my AH to know certain things when I started Al Anon too. When I focus on the Alcoholic my life becomes unmanageable each and every time. One night I called a friend from my face to face group and I kept talking about my AH how he needs to understand this, and he needs to understand that about his drinking so that I could then help him seek support. She very kindly pointed out that he's a capable adult with just as much access to information as me. If he wanted to find out about alcoholism and if his drinking was a problem he could find that out just as easily as I did. Then she calmly brought the focus back to me. I found it a little embarrassing at first but I realized she was right. I know you want to help him. I know you want him to know you might leave and I can completely relate to where you are coming from. I thought my AH chose his drinking over me for a long time and it hurt a lot. But as I worked the program and took the focus off of him and put it back on me I have changed my opinion about his drinking and other's. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning thinking "I'm going to ruin everyone's day today by getting wasted" Now that I have detached more and been able to see my AH from a bit of an emotional distance I can really see how he can't control it. Once he starts it is very difficult if not impossible for him to stop. I don't have that reaction to alcohol but I see it in my AH. And I can have empathy for him. I actually think "wow that must be hard" and I also am thankful that I don't have such a terrible disease.
I used to threaten to leave all the time. Tell him if he doesn't get better I'm out but I didn't actually leave and so it didn't really mean much. I've come to realize that he knows all too well that I may leave he doesn't need a reminder, or a warning or anything. I've said more than enough about my dissatisfaction with his drinking and now I don't threaten to leave at all. I've decided that if I leave I will just make the decision and peacefully leave. If he could change he would but he can't at least not right now. So each day I try to focus on what went well and if I am happy. I've built quite a nice life that isn't completely wrapped up in him. Surprisingly our lives have become much more peaceful. I've learn to adapt myself to what is happening in a day instead of fighting against it. I have hobbies, and friends, and meetings, and work and family that fulfil me and build me up. I have seen positive changes in him the more progress I make it rubs off somehow and then it's really tempting to focus on him again and my life soon becomes unmanageable. I have to stop and take a deep breath and ask myself what I need right there in that moment. Take what you like and leave the rest.
thank you for sharing this, Iamhere. i've been wrestling with this issue (the foundation of everything, really)... and your description perfectly matches the way my ex describes his experience with alcohol. it's a lot for a novice to fully understand, with all its implications and its cunning and baffling manifestations.
I fully understand how a loved one does not understand the disease of alcoholism. I truly do get it. In spite of the pain, tragedy, chaos and insanity I experienced before finding AA, I feel now and always have that I have benefited from that life experience in my Al-Anon program. For an alcoholic or addict, taking a drink/drug is as natural as cheating on a diet, biting fingernails, smoking cigarettes, etc. It's an obsession of the mind and a compulsion of the body. It's not a choice.
I too read outside literature and with each contemplated how best o 'serve it up' for my loved ones for a long while. What I did not see and did not want to see is those actions are detrimental to my recovery, and me still trying to lead with my will instead of surrendering. I will be the first to admit I get a bit touchy when posts are more about what the alcoholic is doing that how we are working recovery, especially if they are condescending or blaming or just mean/nasty. It hurts my heart in ways that are beyond words.
I know today that I can not teach anyone how that obsession/compulsion feels or drives another. I also know today that there are many who will never accept, understand or believe that it's not a choice. What I can say is my only way to truly restore my sanity and find some level of peace was to truly surrender and own what powerlessness means.
I embrace everyone's choice to seek support and help however they feel the need to yet I also believe that it's important to realize that some of the outside resources may not align with what our program suggests we do for our recovery.
If you go to a rehab facility they teach you brain chemistry, and what happens to your brain cells after abusing drugs or alcohol for a longtime. AA does not do that they do not claim anything medically. Not because it is untrue but because the program is about your HP and what you can learn from other people because of their experience.
I think I must try hard to remember that this is an Alanon forum and really anger, control, bitterness towards the alcoholic is a big part of this. Its how I came in to Alanon, surely its how we all come in, that's the main symptom for us Alanoners, bitterness, anger, resentful, controlling etc and all with no or little understanding of the nature of the disease. We are only experts on the horrible symptoms of this disease.
I remember going to my first AA convention with women from my Alanon group, I had been in Alanon about 5 months. They told me it would be good for my recovery to listen to the experience from the point of view of the drinker. So I went and I sat there and got angrier and angrier. Afterwards I told the women that I cant believe how ignorant the alcoholics are of what we have been through, how its all about their pain and how bad things got for them and don't they know what they have put their family through? Do they have a clue of what this disease feels like day after day and SOBER!!!! I could hardly contain how angry I felt.
It was interesting to me that some of the women agreed with me and then others, (today I can see it was those truly working this) told me that its impossible to fully see from each others perspective and we are all doing the best with what we have got in this day and as we progress in our own recovery then we get more awareness and understanding and then we see differently one day at a time.
We could spend a long time insisting we see from our own perspective, Ive spent my whole life insisting everybody see the world through my eyes and my perspective.
Through attending meetings, working the steps, sponsor, literature, reading of other things that have interested me through becoming spiritual. All this got me the understanding and awareness I needed to open my mind enough to see that this disease is cunning and baffling and part of that obscures any inkling of the pain the other person is in.
P an P thinks its a choice, so did I and so did every one of us here at some point, I'm sure. Its hard to not see it as a choice as you listen to the lies and excuses the drinker has to go drink, I was left at home with three kids and I believed every single time he was choosing to drink over me and over our beautiful kids and over our life and family and slowly but surely the hopes and dreams that seemed so do-able slip away. If we are all looking to understand each other then its important that double winners try to understand the pain from this place. It really really hurts and it breeds anger, resentment, hate, the whole shebang. It also takes a slice of self worth over and over again until I truly believed I was just not good enough for him to chose not to drink.
It took me a long time to accept that alcoholism was a disease, I thought that was an excuse and I also thought it gave permission to continue so I resisted for a while inside my mind but I trusted Alanon so deeply so soon that I let in each and every idea on some level and wow the benefits to me of that have been a miracle to me. The compassion forgiveness understanding peace I have got is amazing and I know I will keep getting more and more of that good stuff as I keep going.
Its funny to me because I spent years unwilling and unable to see from the perspective of the drinker and then I could see and then I spent quite a lot of time unwilling to see from the perspective of the Alanon person. I suppose its about balance and opening up our minds to the point of view of people, just people where they are at in this day. Step 1 - I am powerless over ...other people's journeys and there view of the world today.
-- Edited by el-cee on Monday 3rd of July 2017 01:26:57 AM
Very good post -- thank you for reminding me, and sharing your perspective.
I wasn't going to post again, but in waiting a few days, I realized that is my codie behavior... I get my feelings hurt and I retreat... but I harbor resentment. So to break that cycle...
I think that there are persons here that are "stuck" on me claiming that alcoholism is a choice, not a disease. That isn't entirely what I said. Here is my quote:
"I truly believe that alcoholism begins as a choice, but due to chemical changes in the brain and neuroplasticity (the brain's capability to rewire itself in response to both internal and external environmental factors), it soon becomes an actual disease of the brain... and can and should, be treated like a disease (just like Type II Diabetes, Bi-Polar etc) by the medical community. To borrow a well-known phrase, 'When we know better, we do better!'"
As you can see, my opinion states that it BEGINS as a choice... whether the first drink is in your teens or as an adult... whether you have addiction "genes" or not... somewhere the person has to make a conscience decision to take that first drink. What happens after seems to be a combination of things that is different for every person - but the commonality is that there ARE chemical changes occurring in the brain of the drinker.
The point really, was that the brain is an organ of the body that is just now becoming fully explored. There are many neurological/chemical processes going on that the medical community are just now beginning to truly understand. When understanding that, it is much easier for the non-alcoholic to discard the "antiquated" thinking of "it's a choice" and accept this as a disease, plain, but not so simple - the brain is THE most complex organ of the body. I think with better understanding of this, it is easier for the newbie in Al-Anon to keep the focus on themselves... b/c at first it is very easy to fall back into the "why are they doing this? Why can't they just stop for me/family/kids?" type of thinking. It is hard for the newbie to wrap their heads around this family disease until they find peace from working on themselves through Al-Anon steps and principles... and that DOES take time.
BTW, I DID run this by my sponsor to kind of double-check my motives, and she told me, "As long as you do this with NO EXPECTATIONS, and remember that if he truly wanted to, he could take the time to research this." I was told if I posted this I would be met with some resistance, but I never expected this much push-back!
Thank you, David, for understanding my true intent of my post.
In conclusion, I am NOT sorry for having/voicing my opinion. I do feel bad that perhaps it may have been misconstrued. I am doing what I need to do for MY health, no one else. Take what you like, and please leave the rest. Thank you to all those who contribute to this forum... I always seem to find what I need to help ME find my sanity.