Last night was hellish for me. In fact, the last 7 days has been difficult to hellish. I have an AH that currently thinks that I am unsupportive and unloving.
Today I am trying to stay in my own lane and not engage with my AH about last night's drink-fest. He is pissed at me because I wouldn't sleep in the bedroom. I didn't engage him last night, didn't accuse, didn't do anything but sleep on the couch and when he kept bugging me about why i was out there, I finally just said, "I just don't like the smell in the bedroom... it's hard to get to sleep." Nothing else.
He just kept pushing me... "What does it smell like?"
I just repeated what does it matter? Eventually I had to say it smells like alcohol.... just to shut him up!! By then it was around 2 am!!! Then of course he was pissed off and slammed and banged around and eventually got in bed, loudly calling me names and such (so I could hear). Sheesh!
Today he is swearing he was not drinking. Are you kidding me????
I told him I don't want to fight about this.... my perception is my own and yours is yours. He kept after me, and eventually I had to say, "You were sleeping while sitting up, slurring your words, stumbling around... I don't know... sounds like some sort of substance to me." I also said that he was not a nice person to me last night, and I just can't handle that anymore.
I know that most of what he tells me is just quacking... lies... but he is actually mad at me for not believing him!!! Is it possible for an alcoholic to actually forget that they drank the night before?
I don't know... I told him that when I was hounding him about drinking, obsessing etc, you were mad at me. Now that I have a program and am working it and I don't fight with you, I don't try and guilt you or any of that other stuff, you still are mad at me.... what the hell? He just said he was sorry.
I hate paydays!!!!!
As usual, thanks for letting me vent here.
KennyFenderjazz said
Jun 2, 2017
I have had times when I could produce any kind of evidence I could think of to tell my wife that she had been drinking. All denied, explained away, or passed back to me as being my fault. I finally stopped bothering to tell her, or if I would tell her, stopped bothering to listen to her afterwards. JADE came in pretty handy at those times, no need to Justify, Argue, Defend, or Explain. And no was a complete sentence for me at those points. Once she finally got into serious recovery things got much better on that front.
Kenny
WestMan said
Jun 2, 2017
At the end you say he said he was sorry. Not that that makes up for the atrocious behavior but was that different than usual? Kind of sounded like maybe you cut through his fog on some level....
I'm just starting to read "Al Anon Works" and one part comes to mind. That sometimes the A feels guilty about their problem and will start fights. Or uses a loved one's obsessive nagging about their drinking to then go out and drink. They come to depend on us to provide them with the rationale they need. Then when we start to work on ourselves and we stop engaging in this behavior it screws up their routine. The book mentions that they may come up with some very crafty ways to suck us into a new argument.
Aline said
Jun 2, 2017
(((Posies))). So sorry you're going through this... Sounds terribly similar to what I was experiencing sometimes when living with my abf, especially after going to Alanon meetings for a while. I tried, and, as I was getting into the program more, often succeeded in not answering insanely to the insanity. Two or three times when he was obviously lying big to my face I had told him simply "don't lie" and that surprisingly made him stop clinging to whatever it was. I didn't accuse, I just refused to pretend that I bought his big fat lie when he knew what happened and he knew that I knew that as well... Still, in the long run I suppose this didn't matter much anyway, because he just found something to argue about without lies as well... Sigh. Alcoholism is really cunning. Take care, one day at a time.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 3, 2017
Kenny - yes, I have been reading a lot lately about JADE'ing...I am really trying to utilize that slogan, but my AH is always wanting some sort of explanation. If I leave it at a "no" or "it's nothing" answer, he gets so angry. So I have been trying to be as honest as I can without trying to lay blame. Occasionally it works, many times it doesn't.
WestMan - Actually, my AH tends to say "sorry" a lot. After the drunkeness, comes anger, and then usually some sort of depression and that is when he will usually see his errors and apologize. But at this point I am really tired of "sorry's" that don't truly mean anything.
Aline - thank you for the support. It is indeed a cunning disease. I can't even say "Don't Lie," because he is so angry in his convictions and I am always at fault, no matter what I do.
MissM said
Jun 3, 2017
I came to the conclusion that my "he" demanded explanations for everything so that he could use them as ammunition. Every single time I tried to JADE anything with him and answer to his abusive interrogations, I was just handing him more and more ways to ensnare me in the crazy (and as long as he had me down there in his crazy hell with him, he was OK, right?) When I realised this, I really, really didn't want to do it any more.
No is a complete sentence and "I do not want to discuss this with you right now" does pretty well too. Following you around the house and demanding that you participate in his bullying IS abuse and in my case, I had to remove myself from it and live separately because I could no longer willingly subject myself to that. He would not accept my refusal to engage and I would not accept being subjugated like that any more.
Yet, I have to admit that while I was still living with him, but after I had spent my first couple of years learning and practicing al-anon tools- I was at a point where I KNEW that arguing with him was pointless and exhausting yet sometimes I did it anyway just to shut him up...if he thought he could still get me to engage, he tended to leave me alone for a while after that. Crazy but true; in a calculated way I would engage with his crazy drunken nonsense every once in a while to allow him to let off steam and calm himself down. Why? Because I was afraid of him. It's very sad, when I look back.
My point is, have you considered what your motives might be for continuing to engage and argue with an irrational, abusive drunk person? Is it that you literally can't escape it and feel that you are in danger? That's a pretty big red flag. Or is it a means of keeping him calm/managing his mood swings? Or do you still feel as if the "right words" will magically change his ways and make him see the light? Examining our motives can be a pretty helpful tool to use when we are stuck in a loop. You are worth so much more than a life dominated by someone else's imaginary anger.
milkwood said
Jun 3, 2017
Trusting my own instincts and reality is my mantra these days!
As for blaming - I think I've said this before, but since I remember and use it regularly perhaps it is worth repeating here as well - a dear friend of mine once said to me "of course its your fault Milkwood, who's else could it possibly be?' I hope that helps a little.
Sending ((((hugs))))
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 3, 2017
MissM and Milkwood - thank you for your ESH.
Sometimes laughingly telling myself "of course" does work... but I guess as things build up it becomes harder to laugh it off.
Examining MY motives... hmmmmm. I have seen this a lot on the forum lately, so I guess my HP is telling me something, huh? LOL! I have took a long hard look at my part in all this. In other words, why do I stay? 5 years ago, when my AH went to rehab for meth abuse, I relied on my parents and state assistance to get by. The process to obtain assistance was an eye-opener to be sure. I am a petite, blonde white girl... so to say I was out of place was an understatement - I was literally the ONLY white person in those lines (on those days)...a good example was that everything handed to me (and I do mean EVERYTHING) in terms of paperwork was in Spanish. I would have to wait in line again, just to ask them to please give me paperwork that i could read. Then I had other caseworkers tell me "Honey, why are you even here?" just by looking at me. I made it through, but I was shell-shocked. In fact, I still have some sort of weird PTSD reaction when I think about being completely on my own, and having to go through that again (hyperventilating). With the help of my parents (helping pay rent) and food stamps, my then 10 year old son and I really thrived without our qualifier!! But once my recovering husband returned to our lives and our home, I vowed to never again put myself through that.
So in examining my motives, I guess the CRAZY has not gotten bad enough yet. Sad. So sad and pathetic when I read this back. I've spent a year going to doctor's visits, helping him through crisis after health crisis, hoping he could get better... secretly knowing that there was a larger problem I wasn't willing to acknowledge yet. It finally got so bad that it was blatantly staring me in the face and I had to accept I am now married to an alcoholic. I came back to Al-Anon and began to see some light. But the fact remains... I am scared to be poor - not that we are doing well now, but I find a way to creatively manage money and save for the things I know we need! And I love the house we rent... not big by anyone's standards, but in a good city, close to my parents, and very good schools for my son.
So yea, I guess I am choosing to stay in the crazy. Ack! Perhaps that is why it has taken me so long to look hard at this...it fills me with despair to be honest.
My head is not in a good place right now... going outside to enjoy my newly planted garden and my long awaited "me space" (my patio).
SerenityRUS said
Jun 3, 2017
I know I need to keep the focus on me .. again .. it helps me to understand what is transpiring .. this is a ME thing .. LOL .. it is not for everyone ... what I have learned about the disease is the blackouts can start happening when there is no drinking involved this can be at the later stages of the addiction. Again .. alcoholism is a progressive disease .. so the same behavior continues .. guess what .. it gets worse memory lapses .. the whole "wet brain" that is straight up brain damage that may or may not be reversible .. there are so many factors to this disease that are mental and physical .. I am talking beyond just addiction being a 4 fold issue of bankruptcy. So can they forget? Of course. Does it matter? Depends on if my safety or that of my children's are involved then yes .. for me .. that is the hard boundary that I have in taking action. I will tolerate a LOT as an adult .. when I see it hurting my children who at the time had no choice and no voice THEN I have issue .. a big one .. LOL. Outside of that I have learned to leave things alone. My daughter and I were talking about relationships in general .. and one thing is the nagging, I know I'm right attitude is destructive behavior that I exhibit .. allowing someone to be where they are and loving them anyway is where I seem to be .. now .. I choose not to have the alcoholic in my life at this point and someday that might change .. not today. I am learning so much about me at this point I don't have time for singing the him's at this point and time.
That is amazingly great about your garden I hope you enjoy it. :)
Iamhere said
Jun 3, 2017
PnP - in my home, as I began to use the tools of detachment and boundary setting, my 'people' and their reactions got worse before the got better. We all had done the same dance for so very long, that when I changed, it totally screwed up the dance of the family. They behaved and reacted badly and I did all that I could, using the tools to stay on my course.
In scenarios like you describe, I used to repeat to myself, do not react - let go and let god. If they were persistent (and ... they ... were ...), my sponsor suggested I statements only with no reference to them. Including - I am really tired and comfortable where I am - I need good sleep tonight please. Or I am sorry you aren't ready for bed, I am - can I have some quiet time to rest? I ignored their questions and just kept speaking my truth as calmly as possible.
When mine are active, nothing I say or do will suffice any question they ask. I know this as the insanity of the disease. Things end faster here when I just act as if I am an island and do what I can to separate me from them - emotionally, spiritually and physically if possible/necessary. I have actually walked out of the home, gotten into my car and drove to a parking lot to nap/meditate/pray/call a program friend. I used the same strategy as before - if they came badgering upon return, I needed some air. I needed some processing time. I did all that I could to speak with a gentle voice (very contrary to me before recovery....I was either bossy, loud, condescending or just plain hateful/sarcastic). When mine figured out that my buttons had been moved/uninstalled, it got better.
The disease brings a whole host of insanity for all parties in a family. For me, considering what I could actually change/control (me) and a great sponsor made all the difference!! (((Hugs)))
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 3, 2017
Thank you, Serenity for your insight. My hard boundary is my child as well. I can put up with a lot... but for him, no way!!
Iamhere... I think that is what is happening. I am using tools, and the status quo has been changed... so the push-back is stronger. I am really trying to use "I statements" to try and keep him from thinking that I am blaming him. It just makes things easier IMHO. I have to just keep concentrating on myself.
Thank you for your support.
shrnp said
Jun 4, 2017
I read Westman's comment and I had to say that I never knew this was actually in a book, my A ex-bf was constantly starting stupid arguments so he could leave and go out with his friends and drink. Other times, when we were not living together and I went to visit him, he would just tell me he was going to get really drunk knowing I would leave.
"I'm just starting to read "Al Anon Works" and one part comes to mind. That sometimes the A feels guilty about their problem and will start fights. Or uses a loved one's obsessive nagging about their drinking to then go out and drink. They come to depend on us to provide them with the rationale they need. Then when we start to work on ourselves and we stop engaging in this behavior it screws up their routine. The book mentions that they may come up with some very crafty ways to suck us into a new argument. "
Bo said
Jun 4, 2017
I am not being cold -- but yes, I've seen numerous alcoholics forget vis a vis blackouts. Forget they actually drank? I don't know, and not to sound cold, I don't care. Their decisions are their decisions -- and my life and how I live it is my life. Even if my AW "forgot" she drank, what happened still happened. It still comes down to...me...how do I want to live my life.
Even if he "forgot" he drank the night before -- is that the real issue? You have your program. Let him either have his or not. Don't get into the back and forth with him. Why would you? To be right? To prove to him? My thinking is that it's an effort -- a good intention one -- to help, fix, control, etc., however, he doesn't want to get better. That is his decision. Even keeping it in the "I" -- that can still be done in a way where you are trying for force your will, give your opinion, be right, make him out to be wrong, prove something to him, get him to to what you want, to stop doing what he's doing, and so on. Take what you like and leave the rest.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 4, 2017
Sharon, thank you for your ESH.
Bo - I am guessing you are a man, correct? Only b/c IMHO, it is easier to have the "I don't care, I am living my life attitude" when the non-alcoholic is not financially dependent on the qualifier. And I am not saying there aren't women out there completely financially capable of taking care of themselves... it's just the statistics say they are in the minority - even in this day and age! But I do like to read your straightforward ESH... makes me feel like I can do it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
The only reason I was questioning the forgetting is b/c he is so adamant about not having ANY alcohol. Yet, day after day he is incapacitated in some way! It is just crazy! The old me would take videos of him to prove my truth... but now I just don't even bother. But I hate it when he tells me I am crazy to think he is "using" when he hasn't had a drink in X number of days. I really believe that the alcohol has and is affecting his cognitive abilities, so why even bother?
Probably one of these days he'll blow up at me, and I will tell him GTFO! That will be the end of that.
milkwood said
Jun 5, 2017
As I was about to type a message to you Posies I saw your footnote about 'music makes my soul soar' and it reminded me of the concert in Manchester, UK that I watched last night. It was full of love and such a wonderful event - a reminded that how we react to events is our choice - thank you for the reminder!
When considering my own sanity I prefer not to take into account the thoughts of my alcoholic, or any others come to think of it since I know enough not to trust their judgement. I might well seem crazy to my husband since we clearly have very different realities - but that doesn't have to alter my experiencing of me. It is empowering to trust my own perceptions.
It would be drop in finances for me if my husband and I split up and I would loose a home that I love - but part of my recovery has been to train in some skills that will help me to get work if I need to set out on my own. This has the benefit of getting me out of the house, thinking about positive and empowering steps of my own and I have met up with a wonderful bunch of fellow students as well. Keeping the focus on me has been helpful and I do find that what my husband is or isn't doing is less important to me now. How he treats me is my benchmark, regardless of drinking, poor mental health or anything else. Before I used to walk on eggshells to keep the peace, now I just walk!!
I hope this makes sense! Sending (((((hugs)))))
Bo said
Jun 5, 2017
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
Sharon, thank you for your ESH.
Bo - I am guessing you are a man, correct? Only b/c IMHO, it is easier to have the "I don't care, I am living my life attitude" when the non-alcoholic is not financially dependent on the qualifier. And I am not saying there aren't women out there completely financially capable of taking care of themselves... it's just the statistics say they are in the minority - even in this day and age! But I do like to read your straightforward ESH... makes me feel like I can do it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
The only reason I was questioning the forgetting is b/c he is so adamant about not having ANY alcohol. Yet, day after day he is incapacitated in some way! It is just crazy! The old me would take videos of him to prove my truth... but now I just don't even bother. But I hate it when he tells me I am crazy to think he is "using" when he hasn't had a drink in X number of days. I really believe that the alcohol has and is affecting his cognitive abilities, so why even bother?
Probably one of these days he'll blow up at me, and I will tell him GTFO! That will be the end of that.
Yes, I am a man. My I don't care attitude isn't really simply just that. It more comes from focusing on me so that I get better, independent of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. Certainly I don't propose ignoring this entire situation. However, there is a difference between ignoring and detaching. Yes, the financial aspect can certainly have an impact, and it can change the situation. So, does it have an impact, yes. Does it make things impossible -- well, it can appear that way, however, there's always a way. Something.
It is very common for the alcoholic to deny any and all drinking. For many reasons. The old way, with you taking videos -- that is a very unhealthy you. That is your sickness. So, congratulations on getting better from being that person! Good for you, great for you. I did the video thing too! I was very unhealthy. Now go to the next step -- don't even get into it with him. If you find him incapacitated, as you called it, detach, physically and emotionally -- and go do what you are going to do; go to a movie, go out, go sleep in another bedroom, take the kids and go to the mall, whatever. Just go. Now, he is by himself, and he will experience all of the consequences, ramifications, etc., of his own actions, decisions and drinking. It's all on and about him. You are out of it. And -- most of all -- you don't even address it with him. Now, he won't be telling you that you are crazy, wrong, whatever. No debate, no argument, etc. He doesn't have anything to be adamant about.
Does this mean you ignore this? No, it doesn't have to mean that. Establish some boundaries -- and they don't have to do with "drinking" per se. Also, you don't have to sleep in the bedroom. So he'll be pissed at you? Tough. You don't have to. You can have some boundaries around that too. Are you living your life to not make him angry? Are you living your life so that he is convinced you are loving and supportive? If so, you have other issues to address and work on. You don't engage, don't get into it with him, and don't sleep in the bedroom -- and if he keeps pushing you, you keep saying "I am not going to get into this with you right now" and after you establish a clear and focused boundary -- you can then revert to that. Don't argue about smell. LOL. Don't argue with him about "perception" and all that, LOL.
If the answer, or the ultimate eventuality, is you throwing him out. Good, so be it. Just make sure you get there and you do it in a healthy way. I think some further detachment and boundaries are the answer for you. You are doing a great job and keep up the good work -- the work on you.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 5, 2017
Thank you, Milkwood for your ESH. I have also looked into costs of furthering my skills so that I could be more marketable. What you shared made great sense to me!
Bo - What you shared was very important. I have worked harder on detaching than is probably conveyed with what I type. I DO leave the house when he is very drunk. But eventually I have to return. And sometimes I just can't leave b/c of my kid. Many times, my teen and I have headed out for the night together, but I always have to get him home so he can get some quality sleep before school. Still, I no longer engage this issue with my AH... when he asks why, I just say I didn't want to be here. Period. The bedroom thing is difficult, b/c we don't have another bedroom for me to retreat to, and the couch in the living room is a double-recliner thing... so not comfortable at all! That's not to say that I haven't done it... I have, many times. But I am the one that ends up suffering (back issues, lack of sleep etc), not him!!! I have used the "I don't want to discuss this with you now" statement. Most of the time it works, so it's my go-to for now. I have resorted to using ear-plugs when I sleep b/c I don't want to listen to him and all his drunk noises while he sleeps... I was surprised how well they work and how much I was formally affected (read obsessing while asleep!). Now if I could find a way to keep me from smelling him! LOL! Thank you for your support, Bo, I truly appreciate your ESH!!
This thread was started not as a focus of how I am obsessing over him (b/c I think I have worked my way past that), but more about getting first-hand information or ESH on the brain processes of the alcoholic. Because I have thought for a long time that my AH has lost some cognitive function, and I was trying to figure out how much of what he says is quacking, and how much is loss of brain function.
But as I read this and reread Bo's share, I guess it doesn't really matter why or how much... b/c even if I got a definitive answer, my AH would never believe me if I pointed it out. And knowing wouldn't really change MY reality!
milkwood said
Jun 5, 2017
And it is YOUR reality we care about!!
I put lavender oil on my pillow
Jerry F said
Jun 5, 2017
Learning from AA literature and meeting and of course from the Al-Anon Fellowship I came to and accepted the understanding of the "It's all about me" attitude. They need to engage with persistence because "it's all about me"...The process keeps them engaged and as long as they are engaged of course it's "all about me".
Some of the most difficult recovery for me was keeping detached, out of the blame game, the "discussion" the figuring it out with her as if I was her sponsor "NOT!!". I forced myself with repetition of the 1step to detach which is a great recovery tool. Do what I needed to stay away from it and out of it which included getting my own apartment and then my own singular life a divorce. Did it work out perfect? No I needed to practice daily until I got it and still have it.
When I enabled my alcoholics and addicts I also enabled myself to remain sick. Been there and done that no more. Keep coming back and practice, practice, practice. (((((hugs)))))
KT2015 said
Jun 5, 2017
((Posies)) I can really relate to your post. The dynamics you describe are so very familiar to me. You have received lots of ESH here so much amazing stuff. My AH denies drinking and at the end of the day it doesn't matter if he realizes he was drinking or not. He is going to believe what he wants to believe no matter what I do because the illness will always be stronger than me. I refuse to engage in discussions with my AH when he's drunk. I outright refuse now after many incidents like the one you describe I just keep repeating myself "I don't want to talk about this right now can we talk about it in the morning". My AH doesn't argue with me nearly as much as he used to. But in the past he would argue with me and pester me just the way you described. My perception of it is my AH believed that he was fooling me. Before Al Anon he could easily take the focus off his drinking by starting an argument with me or debating the small issues or pestering me until I snapped. He was able to manipulate me like that so he did. I also think he felt that if he could convince me that he hadn't been drinking when he had been drinking then his problems would go away. I find it interesting how you describe that he wasn't happy when you were on him about his drinking and now that you aren't he isn't happy. I have come to the conclusion that my AH is just not happy. Period. It doesn't matter what I do or don't do. I can't make him happy and I probably never could and I probably never will. That realization was kind of a relief. It allowed me to stop trying to make him happy, get his approval or recognition or whatever it was I wanted from him. The only person who's happiness I can change is me. So that is where I focus things on. Am I happy with my behaviour? Am I happy with how I handled things? etc. I know that's easier said than done but I did get there and I really am a lot happier. Being happier because I take care of myself and focus on myself has allowed me to deal with my AH in a better way. It also allows me to detach from him in a more healthy and loving way. I am able to enjoy time with him when it is pleasant and step away when it isn't. I don't do it perfectly but I am making progress.
el-cee said
Jun 5, 2017
You have some great responses here and I hope your getting more awareness because for me that was the beginning of change when I could see the reality and not my own distorted view of reality. When I read your post I thought, hes getting worse. Alanon tells us that alcoholism is progressive, it sounds ike hes doing less to hide it and its coming more and more out in the open. That makes sense and most of us here would agree with the idea of it getting either gradually or dramatically worse. Either way, it could mean the thing that keeps you locked in, the finances, may not be a barrier for you for long. How long can an alcoholic keep a job when the disease ramps up or goes into full throttle? Not sure and this program is one day at a time, its good to have a back up plan though. Your financial dependence on him keeps you trapped in whatever is to come and I think of what was going on in my mind that kept me trapped in, it wasnt financial for me because he ost jobs over and over so I knew I didnt need him to support me and he was never completely reliable on that front. It was other faulty beliefs that kept me locked in like, my kids needed their father! wrong! my kids needed peace form the dysfunction and unpredictability of living in alcoholic home, another faulty belief for me was he needed me, wrong! he actually needed me to let him go because when I finally did he got long lasting sobriety. I thought I loved him, I was wrong, I loved being the good one the fixer in control, I loved not having to take responsibility for my own life and the big prize for me I had my very own live in scape goat. I blamed him for every part of my own unhappiness and focused all my attention on changing him because when he change I would have a better life. It was all wrong, this is why we work on us, our thinking is distorted and disturbed. I suggest, get a sponsor who can take you through the steps.
Bethany66 said
Jun 5, 2017
This thread really resounds with me. I have felt it all at some point. I do believe now that almost always the lesson for me is acceptance. I have to quit fighting against windmills and accept that this person is who they are, I cannot change them or control them and I need to go back to step one again. I seem to be doing a waltz of step one, step two, step three, repeat. But this is a gentle program and I can survive for a long time just on those three steps. I hope that you are able to carve out some peace for yourself by remembering the steps and understanding that this disease is bigger than any of us. The denial that is birthed by the disease of alcoholism lives in an alternate reality and will do anything and say anything to maintain the status quo. Accepting the truth of the matter, that we cannot control our alcoholics leaves us the opportunity to take the focus off of them and place it on the one thing we can control, ourselves. Once we move the focus, we experience the freedom of making decisions based on our needs, wants and desires instead of the alcoholics. It is a daily struggle to keep myself in the moment and focused on myself, but that is where "One Day at a Time" comes in. Every now and then I find myself stepping in to the ring to defend myself against my alcoholic. I lose in one way or another every time. I had to make amends on Sunday for allowing myself to get caught in the heat of the moment and say things that were contrary to my belief of how I want to treat people. I don't want to be in the position of needing to make amends anymore. That to me is a big enough reason to drop the rope, and walk out of the conversation. Next time, I hope I will remember to let it go and not engage. As always, progress not perfection.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 6, 2017
You are all so wonderful!! Sharing your support, your experiences... that means so much to me! Thank you, from the bottom of my heart!
KT2015 said
Jun 6, 2017
(((Hugs))) I hope you are having a better day.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 6, 2017
KT - thank you. The last couple days have been better . I love your Avatar... is it an original picture of yours?
I am very interested in nature photography... although I don't have a super camera, I am forever taking aesthetic nature pics! :)
KT2015 said
Jun 9, 2017
Hi PosiesandPuppies
Yes it is a picture I took myself. I took it on my cell phone and I have a million more but I won't bore you with them. There is this park near us that has these beautiful cherry blossom trees and they only bloom for a very short period of time each year. I had always meant to go see them when they are in bloom yet I had lived in this city for over 10 years and never made the 20 minute drive to the park to see them.....until this year when I took my mom and daughter along. We had the best day that day and the trees were so beautiful. Connecting with nature is one of the ways I connect with my Higher Power . After I had this wonderful day I came across this info about them and it said that the Japanese believe that Cherry Blossoms represent the beauty and fragility of life. So I thought it would be the best picture I could find to represent myself :) I'm glad to hear the last couple of days have been better for you.
PosiesandPuppies said
Jun 9, 2017
KT - I too connect with my HP in this way!!! Even though cherry blossoms are this wonderful pastel pink color and the contrast between the pink and new green leaves is incredible, there is something mesmerizing about black and white photography that I love! My camera has a feature that allows me to choose to change a color photo to B&W, or highlight a certain color on B&W. So I have many, many photos similar to yours! ;)
Regarding the cherry blossoms - I know many people who have cherry blossom tats...
Last night was hellish for me. In fact, the last 7 days has been difficult to hellish. I have an AH that currently thinks that I am unsupportive and unloving.
Today I am trying to stay in my own lane and not engage with my AH about last night's drink-fest. He is pissed at me because I wouldn't sleep in the bedroom. I didn't engage him last night, didn't accuse, didn't do anything but sleep on the couch and when he kept bugging me about why i was out there, I finally just said, "I just don't like the smell in the bedroom... it's hard to get to sleep." Nothing else.
He just kept pushing me... "What does it smell like?"
I just repeated what does it matter? Eventually I had to say it smells like alcohol.... just to shut him up!! By then it was around 2 am!!! Then of course he was pissed off and slammed and banged around and eventually got in bed, loudly calling me names and such (so I could hear). Sheesh!
Today he is swearing he was not drinking. Are you kidding me????
I told him I don't want to fight about this.... my perception is my own and yours is yours. He kept after me, and eventually I had to say, "You were sleeping while sitting up, slurring your words, stumbling around... I don't know... sounds like some sort of substance to me." I also said that he was not a nice person to me last night, and I just can't handle that anymore.
I know that most of what he tells me is just quacking... lies... but he is actually mad at me for not believing him!!! Is it possible for an alcoholic to actually forget that they drank the night before?
I don't know... I told him that when I was hounding him about drinking, obsessing etc, you were mad at me. Now that I have a program and am working it and I don't fight with you, I don't try and guilt you or any of that other stuff, you still are mad at me.... what the hell? He just said he was sorry.
I hate paydays!!!!!
As usual, thanks for letting me vent here.
Kenny
WestMan - Actually, my AH tends to say "sorry" a lot. After the drunkeness, comes anger, and then usually some sort of depression and that is when he will usually see his errors and apologize. But at this point I am really tired of "sorry's" that don't truly mean anything.
Aline - thank you for the support. It is indeed a cunning disease. I can't even say "Don't Lie," because he is so angry in his convictions and I am always at fault, no matter what I do.
No is a complete sentence and "I do not want to discuss this with you right now" does pretty well too. Following you around the house and demanding that you participate in his bullying IS abuse and in my case, I had to remove myself from it and live separately because I could no longer willingly subject myself to that. He would not accept my refusal to engage and I would not accept being subjugated like that any more.
Yet, I have to admit that while I was still living with him, but after I had spent my first couple of years learning and practicing al-anon tools- I was at a point where I KNEW that arguing with him was pointless and exhausting yet sometimes I did it anyway just to shut him up...if he thought he could still get me to engage, he tended to leave me alone for a while after that. Crazy but true; in a calculated way I would engage with his crazy drunken nonsense every once in a while to allow him to let off steam and calm himself down. Why? Because I was afraid of him. It's very sad, when I look back.
My point is, have you considered what your motives might be for continuing to engage and argue with an irrational, abusive drunk person? Is it that you literally can't escape it and feel that you are in danger? That's a pretty big red flag. Or is it a means of keeping him calm/managing his mood swings? Or do you still feel as if the "right words" will magically change his ways and make him see the light? Examining our motives can be a pretty helpful tool to use when we are stuck in a loop. You are worth so much more than a life dominated by someone else's imaginary anger.
As for blaming - I think I've said this before, but since I remember and use it regularly perhaps it is worth repeating here as well - a dear friend of mine once said to me "of course its your fault Milkwood, who's else could it possibly be?'
Sending ((((hugs))))
Sometimes laughingly telling myself "of course" does work... but I guess as things build up it becomes harder to laugh it off.
Examining MY motives... hmmmmm. I have seen this a lot on the forum lately, so I guess my HP is telling me something, huh? LOL! I have took a long hard look at my part in all this. In other words, why do I stay? 5 years ago, when my AH went to rehab for meth abuse, I relied on my parents and state assistance to get by. The process to obtain assistance was an eye-opener to be sure. I am a petite, blonde white girl... so to say I was out of place was an understatement - I was literally the ONLY white person in those lines (on those days)...a good example was that everything handed to me (and I do mean EVERYTHING) in terms of paperwork was in Spanish. I would have to wait in line again, just to ask them to please give me paperwork that i could read. Then I had other caseworkers tell me "Honey, why are you even here?" just by looking at me. I made it through, but I was shell-shocked. In fact, I still have some sort of weird PTSD reaction when I think about being completely on my own, and having to go through that again (hyperventilating). With the help of my parents (helping pay rent) and food stamps, my then 10 year old son and I really thrived without our qualifier!! But once my recovering husband returned to our lives and our home, I vowed to never again put myself through that.
So in examining my motives, I guess the CRAZY has not gotten bad enough yet. Sad. So sad and pathetic when I read this back. I've spent a year going to doctor's visits, helping him through crisis after health crisis, hoping he could get better... secretly knowing that there was a larger problem I wasn't willing to acknowledge yet. It finally got so bad that it was blatantly staring me in the face and I had to accept I am now married to an alcoholic. I came back to Al-Anon and began to see some light. But the fact remains... I am scared to be poor - not that we are doing well now, but I find a way to creatively manage money and save for the things I know we need! And I love the house we rent... not big by anyone's standards, but in a good city, close to my parents, and very good schools for my son.
So yea, I guess I am choosing to stay in the crazy. Ack! Perhaps that is why it has taken me so long to look hard at this...it fills me with despair to be honest.
My head is not in a good place right now... going outside to enjoy my newly planted garden and my long awaited "me space" (my patio).
That is amazingly great about your garden I hope you enjoy it. :)
In scenarios like you describe, I used to repeat to myself, do not react - let go and let god. If they were persistent (and ... they ... were ...), my sponsor suggested I statements only with no reference to them. Including - I am really tired and comfortable where I am - I need good sleep tonight please. Or I am sorry you aren't ready for bed, I am - can I have some quiet time to rest? I ignored their questions and just kept speaking my truth as calmly as possible.
When mine are active, nothing I say or do will suffice any question they ask. I know this as the insanity of the disease. Things end faster here when I just act as if I am an island and do what I can to separate me from them - emotionally, spiritually and physically if possible/necessary. I have actually walked out of the home, gotten into my car and drove to a parking lot to nap/meditate/pray/call a program friend. I used the same strategy as before - if they came badgering upon return, I needed some air. I needed some processing time. I did all that I could to speak with a gentle voice (very contrary to me before recovery....I was either bossy, loud, condescending or just plain hateful/sarcastic). When mine figured out that my buttons had been moved/uninstalled, it got better.
The disease brings a whole host of insanity for all parties in a family. For me, considering what I could actually change/control (me) and a great sponsor made all the difference!! (((Hugs)))
Iamhere... I think that is what is happening. I am using tools, and the status quo has been changed... so the push-back is stronger. I am really trying to use "I statements" to try and keep him from thinking that I am blaming him. It just makes things easier IMHO. I have to just keep concentrating on myself.
Thank you for your support.
"I'm just starting to read "Al Anon Works" and one part comes to mind. That sometimes the A feels guilty about their problem and will start fights. Or uses a loved one's obsessive nagging about their drinking to then go out and drink. They come to depend on us to provide them with the rationale they need. Then when we start to work on ourselves and we stop engaging in this behavior it screws up their routine. The book mentions that they may come up with some very crafty ways to suck us into a new argument. "
Even if he "forgot" he drank the night before -- is that the real issue? You have your program. Let him either have his or not. Don't get into the back and forth with him. Why would you? To be right? To prove to him? My thinking is that it's an effort -- a good intention one -- to help, fix, control, etc., however, he doesn't want to get better. That is his decision. Even keeping it in the "I" -- that can still be done in a way where you are trying for force your will, give your opinion, be right, make him out to be wrong, prove something to him, get him to to what you want, to stop doing what he's doing, and so on. Take what you like and leave the rest.
Bo - I am guessing you are a man, correct? Only b/c IMHO, it is easier to have the "I don't care, I am living my life attitude" when the non-alcoholic is not financially dependent on the qualifier. And I am not saying there aren't women out there completely financially capable of taking care of themselves... it's just the statistics say they are in the minority - even in this day and age! But I do like to read your straightforward ESH... makes me feel like I can do it. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.
The only reason I was questioning the forgetting is b/c he is so adamant about not having ANY alcohol. Yet, day after day he is incapacitated in some way! It is just crazy! The old me would take videos of him to prove my truth... but now I just don't even bother. But I hate it when he tells me I am crazy to think he is "using" when he hasn't had a drink in X number of days. I really believe that the alcohol has and is affecting his cognitive abilities, so why even bother?
Probably one of these days he'll blow up at me, and I will tell him GTFO! That will be the end of that.
When considering my own sanity I prefer not to take into account the thoughts of my alcoholic, or any others come to think of it since I know enough not to trust their judgement. I might well seem crazy to my husband since we clearly have very different realities - but that doesn't have to alter my experiencing of me. It is empowering to trust my own perceptions.
It would be drop in finances for me if my husband and I split up and I would loose a home that I love - but part of my recovery has been to train in some skills that will help me to get work if I need to set out on my own. This has the benefit of getting me out of the house, thinking about positive and empowering steps of my own and I have met up with a wonderful bunch of fellow students as well. Keeping the focus on me has been helpful and I do find that what my husband is or isn't doing is less important to me now. How he treats me is my benchmark, regardless of drinking, poor mental health or anything else. Before I used to walk on eggshells to keep the peace, now I just walk!!
I hope this makes sense! Sending (((((hugs)))))
Yes, I am a man. My I don't care attitude isn't really simply just that. It more comes from focusing on me so that I get better, independent of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not. Certainly I don't propose ignoring this entire situation. However, there is a difference between ignoring and detaching. Yes, the financial aspect can certainly have an impact, and it can change the situation. So, does it have an impact, yes. Does it make things impossible -- well, it can appear that way, however, there's always a way. Something.
It is very common for the alcoholic to deny any and all drinking. For many reasons. The old way, with you taking videos -- that is a very unhealthy you. That is your sickness. So, congratulations on getting better from being that person! Good for you, great for you. I did the video thing too! I was very unhealthy. Now go to the next step -- don't even get into it with him. If you find him incapacitated, as you called it, detach, physically and emotionally -- and go do what you are going to do; go to a movie, go out, go sleep in another bedroom, take the kids and go to the mall, whatever. Just go. Now, he is by himself, and he will experience all of the consequences, ramifications, etc., of his own actions, decisions and drinking. It's all on and about him. You are out of it. And -- most of all -- you don't even address it with him. Now, he won't be telling you that you are crazy, wrong, whatever. No debate, no argument, etc. He doesn't have anything to be adamant about.
Does this mean you ignore this? No, it doesn't have to mean that. Establish some boundaries -- and they don't have to do with "drinking" per se. Also, you don't have to sleep in the bedroom. So he'll be pissed at you? Tough. You don't have to. You can have some boundaries around that too. Are you living your life to not make him angry? Are you living your life so that he is convinced you are loving and supportive? If so, you have other issues to address and work on. You don't engage, don't get into it with him, and don't sleep in the bedroom -- and if he keeps pushing you, you keep saying "I am not going to get into this with you right now" and after you establish a clear and focused boundary -- you can then revert to that. Don't argue about smell. LOL. Don't argue with him about "perception" and all that, LOL.
If the answer, or the ultimate eventuality, is you throwing him out. Good, so be it. Just make sure you get there and you do it in a healthy way. I think some further detachment and boundaries are the answer for you. You are doing a great job and keep up the good work -- the work on you.
Bo - What you shared was very important. I have worked harder on detaching than is probably conveyed with what I type. I DO leave the house when he is very drunk. But eventually I have to return. And sometimes I just can't leave b/c of my kid. Many times, my teen and I have headed out for the night together, but I always have to get him home so he can get some quality sleep before school. Still, I no longer engage this issue with my AH... when he asks why, I just say I didn't want to be here. Period. The bedroom thing is difficult, b/c we don't have another bedroom for me to retreat to, and the couch in the living room is a double-recliner thing... so not comfortable at all! That's not to say that I haven't done it... I have, many times. But I am the one that ends up suffering (back issues, lack of sleep etc), not him!!! I have used the "I don't want to discuss this with you now" statement. Most of the time it works, so it's my go-to for now. I have resorted to using ear-plugs when I sleep b/c I don't want to listen to him and all his drunk noises while he sleeps... I was surprised how well they work and how much I was formally affected (read obsessing while asleep!). Now if I could find a way to keep me from smelling him! LOL! Thank you for your support, Bo, I truly appreciate your ESH!!
This thread was started not as a focus of how I am obsessing over him (b/c I think I have worked my way past that), but more about getting first-hand information or ESH on the brain processes of the alcoholic. Because I have thought for a long time that my AH has lost some cognitive function, and I was trying to figure out how much of what he says is quacking, and how much is loss of brain function.
But as I read this and reread Bo's share, I guess it doesn't really matter why or how much... b/c even if I got a definitive answer, my AH would never believe me if I pointed it out. And knowing wouldn't really change MY reality!
I put lavender oil on my pillow
Learning from AA literature and meeting and of course from the Al-Anon Fellowship I came to and accepted the understanding of the "It's all about me" attitude. They need to engage with persistence because "it's all about me"...The process keeps them engaged and as long as they are engaged of course it's "all about me".
Some of the most difficult recovery for me was keeping detached, out of the blame game, the "discussion" the figuring it out with her as if I was her sponsor "NOT!!". I forced myself with repetition of the 1step to detach which is a great recovery tool. Do what I needed to stay away from it and out of it which included getting my own apartment and then my own singular life a divorce. Did it work out perfect? No I needed to practice daily until I got it and still have it.
When I enabled my alcoholics and addicts I also enabled myself to remain sick. Been there and done that no more. Keep coming back and practice, practice, practice. (((((hugs)))))
I am very interested in nature photography... although I don't have a super camera, I am forever taking aesthetic nature pics! :)
Yes it is a picture I took myself. I took it on my cell phone and I have a million more but I won't bore you with them. There is this park near us that has these beautiful cherry blossom trees and they only bloom for a very short period of time each year. I had always meant to go see them when they are in bloom yet I had lived in this city for over 10 years and never made the 20 minute drive to the park to see them.....until this year when I took my mom and daughter along. We had the best day that day and the trees were so beautiful. Connecting with nature is one of the ways I connect with my Higher Power . After I had this wonderful day I came across this info about them and it said that the Japanese believe that Cherry Blossoms represent the beauty and fragility of life. So I thought it would be the best picture I could find to represent myself :) I'm glad to hear the last couple of days have been better for you.
Regarding the cherry blossoms - I know many people who have cherry blossom tats...