Yesterday evening I came home from work to find an empty vodka bottle on the living room floor. I wasn't surprised, yesterday was payday. I just picked it up and went into our bedroom where my AH was lying on the bed with the food and drink (that I've asked him before to not have b/c he spills it all the time). I could tell that he drank that whole bottle earlier.
I actually had written out exactly what happened, but it was so long... I decided let's focus on my question, not on what my AH did. Suffice it to say that a long text rant occurred.
What really pushed my buttons was that he said he couldn't take this "bullshit anymore... I can't take all the guilt or ridicule anymore." He started to blame our son for saying something. I took a deep breathe, and thought about what I wanted to say...
I said, "I am sorry you feel that way. I am trying very hard not to ridicule you, or make you angry when you drink. I am working my Al-Anon program VERY hard. I am trying to stick only to my stuff, & control only that which I can control... me. As for DS, I don't want to discuss this right now. He has no reason to lie... you are his father and he loves you."
I tried to explain that I didn't think he should leave & drive drunk...I was going to do my own thing & try not to worry about you, and you do what you think you need. I don't know what it is he should do but we love him and will support sobriety.
He basically then told me that he guessed he was on his own and blamed me for not supporting him. He then said, "Maybe I can get support from somebody else."
Let me tell you... that sent my blood to boil! What I wanted to say was... if you could find somebody more supportive than me, than don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!!!!
I actually had to get online from my phone and read some posts here so that I can remind myself on how to act. Thank God for this forum! So what I actually said was, "Why do you think I don't support you... because I am taking care of myself? My sanity?" He accused me of hating him, and I said, "I do not hate YOU, I hate addiction, & I am just trying to stay sane. B/c when I obsess over the drinking or whatever, my mind is in a bad place. Like I said, I am really trying to work my Al-Anon tools."
So now to the question... If you were in a similar position (Qualifier saying that you weren't being supportive enough), what was your answer to that? Can it be something as simple as, "Well, that's your opinion?"
TIA!
MissM said
May 26, 2017
"I totally understand; I feel the same way and it really does suck". Good or bad, that'd be (and has been) my response, lol.
But only because it makes me feel better, not because anything I say has an impact on another person really, especially not someone who really seems to want to interpret everything I say a certain way that suits their own needs....in fact it's kind of pointless trying to formulate the "right" words when you see it like that, isn't it? You can say whatever you need to say to validate yourself, for you, but if the aim is to get him to "see things differently" then, wasted breath most likely.
Hugs.
shrnp said
May 27, 2017
I would say something smart, it would be hard to refrain from doing that. I cannot imagine having a decent conversation with someone who just drank a bottle of vodka. I think you handled it really well telling him you are doing your thing to handle his addiction by using the Alanon program. What else can you say to him in the frame of mind?
Stan1 said
May 27, 2017
"Why should I react to criticism and accusation, justified or not? What can I gain by heated denials and irrational discussions? In a neurotic environment, anything can start a row. I need not take part in it; I will ignore it --cheerfully if I can. This is an excellent technique for avoiding dissention. Our calm unconcern may make him think seriously about finding sobriety. " ODAT p.189. When my RAH was drinking I refused to get into any discussion with him regarding drinking. I sure would not be picking up any bottles that I hadn't left or any other mess not created by me. I do remember one night finding my passed out spouse curled up by the front door so I put a blanket over him and went to bed. I know it hurts but expecting a irrational person to say or do rational things is not possible, so please don't take words personally. (((Hugs)))
-- Edited by Stan1 on Saturday 27th of May 2017 12:15:17 AM
a4l said
May 27, 2017
Hey PNP. My own responses were usually exasperated: when do you start taking responsibility for your own misery? And " don't you think its a bit weird that in all of your life experiences of chaos, its always some one else's fault yet the only common factor is you?". Then I reversed the first one and walked out. No matter what we say, it doesn't change them. But if it helps you to feel honest and expressed and aware, without hurting someone else, its all good, is my experience.
Aline said
May 27, 2017
Hi, Posies. I was blamed for exactly that yesterday. Since I feel I'm supportive enough and the accusation is untrue, I try to ignore the words completely, saying I'm sorry you feel that way or similar.
Iamhere said
May 27, 2017
I typically do not engage as suggested above.....I also don't pick up or clean up unless it affects me directly (I want to cook and crap is in my prep area).
If I slip and engage, I bow out as quickly and kindly as I can. Short, easy statements work best, "I am sorry you feel that way." I don't bother to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain (JADE) as it is a pointless effort when the disease is active. I know that those in active addiction can not identify their own feelings, and are in huge denial of any part they play in the chaos and will NOT hear anything I say about me, them, us, etc.
I will go to any lengths to protect my serenity today and I'd much rather be happy that be right. My sponsor used to ask me that often - would you rather be right or would you rather be angry? For a long time, I wanted to be right.....being right in the midst of chaos/drama is overrated.....
(((Hugs)))
Mine made all kinds of messes - spills, stains, burns, etc....it really bothered me as I want to be/live in a clean, pretty place. I just set up a separate area for me, and locked the door when I was gone. I put the oldest sheets/comforter I had on the beds and let go. I stopped buying new/replacements as it drove me crazy! Exception = my space!
PosiesandPuppies said
May 27, 2017
Wonderful answers all! Thank you for sharing your ESH!
So reading back, and then reading your responses, I think part of me did well, but I still let some of what he said get under my skin. More work on detachment!
I like the saying, "I am sorry you feel that way." I've used it before, I don't know why I couldn't think to say that this time... I guess b/c I was so flabbergasted he would accuse me of that. And perhaps b/c it came just 2 days after he made a big deal of telling me that an ex-high school GF was Facebooking him. Back in the day I was very jealous of her... but I just told him, "I have no problem with her contacting you. It's no big deal, we're all adults now." B/c frankly, if he wants to give all this sh*t to another women, I say go for it! I'd be so thankful! LOL!!!But now I get it... I have stopped acting in the manner that 1. He's used to, and 2. One that coddles and baby's him so it can appear cold and unfeeling.
I try not to clean up his stuff, but we live in a very tiny house. So vomit, or blood or bottles I can't stand "in my face." I do not have, and cannot create my "own space." And really, I just picked it up and gave to him to throw away. But I think I didn't want my son to see it - that was before I knew that DS walked in on him guzzling it down!
I just wish I could have another portion of the house that is almost entirely separate (like a basement) so that he can just live down there when he drinks. I guess I can feel that I no longer want to live this way, despite using detachment, and despite the good periods. I keep coming back to the phrase, "Nothing changes if nothing changes." I mean, I am making changes for myself - but they are tiny changes - they do make life a little easier, but I am finding I want A LOT easier!
SerenityRUS said
May 27, 2017
Sometimes while nothing changes for the A everything changes for the other person. Keep coming back .. You are right he's screaming change back because you are changing .. So I don't see this as a nothing changes situation .. HE may not be however YOU are and he sees it. Hugs s;)
PosiesandPuppies said
May 28, 2017
Thank you, Serenity. I hope I am changing for the better!
Enjoy your holiday weekend!
KT2015 said
May 29, 2017
Hmmm that sounds so very familiar. The first thing that strikes me is that he was drunk and a boundary I have is I don't get into serious discussions when he is drinking because it makes him say and do things he wouldn't normally say and do and it never ends well. Instead I say "can we talk about this in the morning". Then when he's not drinking and he seems to be in a good space to discuss things I ask to discuss them. My AH feels that way sometimes about my program too because I changed so much. When he's in a good space he appreciates the changes in me (that took a while to get to) when he's not in a good space he does NOT appreciate the changes in me. When he's in a bad space and saying I'm not supportive I say "I'm sorry you feel that way". And I try my best to let it go. Easier said than done. Good luck!
Jerry F said
May 30, 2017
Aloha PNP and thanks for the memories...I loved everyone I had cause most came from the recovery portion of my life. Yahooo those were and still are powerful times as I took control of myself and exercised self love. I remembered about keeping my responses during these times "short and simple" and so with the help of my sponsor I collected one that would work each and every time my alcoholic/addict wife was trying to overpower me with shame and guilt and it was "No...you're wrong" (quietly and without much reaction) and then walk away nicely. I refused to take part in the push/pull alcoholic arguments and they went away.
Refuse to participate.
I can still hear the lesson and my sponsors laugh when he got to the part "and words can really hurt me"....remember the poem Sticks and Stones.? Pat yourself on the back cause you've done good. (((((hugs)))))
milkwood said
May 30, 2017
When I first came to these boards it was to try to find out how I could be there for my husband, because I was convinced that he must have been right when he told me 'you're not there for me.'
The gift that I received was to read and read and while doing so I came across five other posts from women who were being told the exact same thing. They too were being told that they weren't there for their spouses even though the worry and concern that came through in their posts completely contradicted what they were being told. That cured me of believing everything my husband said!!!
I learnt to trust my own reality and then I started to learn how I could shape my own reality for the better as well. By putting my own sanity at the top of my priority list I was better able to help my husband, although the alcohol gremlins spent a couple of years telling him otherwise. My thinking was 'I can't join you where you are just now, but I'm aiming to be healthy and happy and to be content in my own life. That way, when you get better, I'll be there to celebrate alongside you.' I didn't tell my husband any of this, these are just the reasons why I chose to stand aside from chaos as best I could. What I did say to my husband was, as others have said above, 'I'm sorry you feel that way' or 'I disagree'. Walking away from a tantrum or bad behaviour seemed good. I had a right to my own calm space. Really, I did!!
I think that those hurtful words I was hearing were actually my husband projecting his thoughts about himself onto others because accepting his own behaviour at the time was more than he could bear. Doesn't make it ok though, and they do bruise so I had to find ways of counteracting those bruises. But letting those words hang in the air rather than trying to defend myself unnecessarily left him having to pick some of them up himself eventually.
It took a lot of strength to let someone I love hurt so much, but I resolved to set an example of how positive life could be by doing things I enjoyed.
As Jerry says, you've done good, great in fact! (((((Hugs)))))
Bo said
May 30, 2017
This sounds like you are trying to have a logical, intellect-based, normal, healthy conversation...with someone who is not logical, not able to have an intellect-based conversation, not normal and healthy...and so on. See? You can't apply logic to an illogical person and illogical situation. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Perhaps it's time for you to change?
Now, you say, focus on your question? Check your motives. It sounds like you are trying to be right, trying to prove a point, several of them actually, trying to get him to see what you see, etc.
I would never engage to the extent and depth that you are -- my boundary is that I will not engage with my AS when she's been drinking. I detach, completely, both physically and emotionally. I am not trying to prove my point or have her see my perspective, or anything of the like.
I would meet with your sponsor and talk about this. Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes.
KT2015 said
May 30, 2017
milkwood I really loved your share. Those words "I resolved to set an example of how positive life could be by doing things I enjoyed". So true!> Thank you.
vampvet69 said
Jul 4, 2017
So Hi everyone! I just joined the group this evening. Happy 4th of July! I am at work and my A is in rehab in Atlanta. He recently got his 6 month chip, which he mailed to me. Told me to hold on to it and he will exchange it when he gets his year. This is his second attempt at rehab. The first was a half-hearted 60 day "manipulation of everybody to just get through what I need to" per his statement. He has been in rehab this time around for 7 months now. We are making plans for him to transition to a half way/sober living house. Has anyone had experience with this? Do you know if the A actually gains long term sobriety from this option? It has been a long rough tumultuous 2 1/2 years with my A that I love so much. Thanks for any advice!
mamalioness said
Jul 4, 2017
PosiesandPuppies wrote:
Thank you, Serenity. I hope I am changing for the better! Enjoy your holiday weekend!
I think you did good....my AH #1 used to toss that at me and i never engaged....i used the J A D E i never justified myself...didn't argue.....didn't defend my actions...and did not explain myself....didn't have to......AND kept it short and simple when I did have to talk...like "sorry you feel that way" and get the hell out or in my own room (we had separate bedrooms becuz of his snoring when smashed) and that was BEFORE alanon...I just didn't want to talk with him..so it was natural to keep it at minimum...i do that with folks I do not like or want to be around....keep it minimal and leave when I can......and you did good!!!!!!
Mattie said
Jul 4, 2017
Welcome, Vampvet. I think more people will see your post if you post it as a seperate thread instead of in the middle of this one. Glad you have found the Board!
Iamhere said
Jul 4, 2017
I too send welcomes Vampvet - glad you found us and glad that you shared. I also agree with Mattie - starting a new thread may get more comments!
hotrod said
Jul 4, 2017
Hello Vampvet Welcome , Alcoholism is a chronic progressive disease over which we powerless Alanon is a recovery program for family members who have lived with the insanity of the disease and do hold face to face meetings in most communities. There is hope and help so please check out the face to face meetings in your community and attend. The hot line # can be found in the white pages.
Keep coming back
mamalioness said
Jul 4, 2017
Mattie wrote:
Welcome, Vampvet. I think more people will see your post if you post it as a seperate thread instead of in the middle of this one. Glad you have found the Board!
hello Vampvet....I agree...I almost didn't see you to welcome you.....glad you found us as well......as to your A, it depends on his heart and his commitment....doesn't matter if recovery is basic or fancy, they gotta HUNGER for recovery...be obsessed with arresting this disease and working their program....90 meets in 90 days, and then??? at least 3x per week ...working the steps, slogans...if hes really reeeeeely serious, he will glom onto the program like a python...........hoping THIS time is it...meantime??? I hope you hang out with us and work YOUR program to take care of you........we are here..........we are listening
Yesterday evening I came home from work to find an empty vodka bottle on the living room floor. I wasn't surprised, yesterday was payday. I just picked it up and went into our bedroom where my AH was lying on the bed with the food and drink (that I've asked him before to not have b/c he spills it all the time). I could tell that he drank that whole bottle earlier.
I actually had written out exactly what happened, but it was so long... I decided let's focus on my question, not on what my AH did. Suffice it to say that a long text rant occurred.
What really pushed my buttons was that he said he couldn't take this "bullshit anymore... I can't take all the guilt or ridicule anymore." He started to blame our son for saying something. I took a deep breathe, and thought about what I wanted to say...
I said, "I am sorry you feel that way. I am trying very hard not to ridicule you, or make you angry when you drink. I am working my Al-Anon program VERY hard. I am trying to stick only to my stuff, & control only that which I can control... me. As for DS, I don't want to discuss this right now. He has no reason to lie... you are his father and he loves you."
I tried to explain that I didn't think he should leave & drive drunk...I was going to do my own thing & try not to worry about you, and you do what you think you need. I don't know what it is he should do but we love him and will support sobriety.
He basically then told me that he guessed he was on his own and blamed me for not supporting him. He then said, "Maybe I can get support from somebody else."
Let me tell you... that sent my blood to boil! What I wanted to say was... if you could find somebody more supportive than me, than don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!!!!
I actually had to get online from my phone and read some posts here so that I can remind myself on how to act. Thank God for this forum! So what I actually said was, "Why do you think I don't support you... because I am taking care of myself? My sanity?" He accused me of hating him, and I said, "I do not hate YOU, I hate addiction, & I am just trying to stay sane. B/c when I obsess over the drinking or whatever, my mind is in a bad place. Like I said, I am really trying to work my Al-Anon tools."
So now to the question... If you were in a similar position (Qualifier saying that you weren't being supportive enough), what was your answer to that? Can it be something as simple as, "Well, that's your opinion?"
TIA!
But only because it makes me feel better, not because anything I say has an impact on another person really, especially not someone who really seems to want to interpret everything I say a certain way that suits their own needs....in fact it's kind of pointless trying to formulate the "right" words when you see it like that, isn't it? You can say whatever you need to say to validate yourself, for you, but if the aim is to get him to "see things differently" then, wasted breath most likely.
Hugs.
"Why should I react to criticism and accusation, justified or not? What can I gain by heated denials and irrational discussions? In a neurotic environment, anything can start a row. I need not take part in it; I will ignore it --cheerfully if I can. This is an excellent technique for avoiding dissention. Our calm unconcern may make him think seriously about finding sobriety. " ODAT p.189.
When my RAH was drinking I refused to get into any discussion with him regarding drinking. I sure would not be picking up any bottles that I hadn't left or any other mess not created by me. I do remember one night finding my passed out spouse curled up by the front door so I put a blanket over him and went to bed. I know it hurts but expecting a irrational person to say or do rational things is not possible, so please don't take words personally. (((Hugs)))
-- Edited by Stan1 on Saturday 27th of May 2017 12:15:17 AM
If I slip and engage, I bow out as quickly and kindly as I can. Short, easy statements work best, "I am sorry you feel that way." I don't bother to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain (JADE) as it is a pointless effort when the disease is active. I know that those in active addiction can not identify their own feelings, and are in huge denial of any part they play in the chaos and will NOT hear anything I say about me, them, us, etc.
I will go to any lengths to protect my serenity today and I'd much rather be happy that be right. My sponsor used to ask me that often - would you rather be right or would you rather be angry? For a long time, I wanted to be right.....being right in the midst of chaos/drama is overrated.....
(((Hugs)))
Mine made all kinds of messes - spills, stains, burns, etc....it really bothered me as I want to be/live in a clean, pretty place. I just set up a separate area for me, and locked the door when I was gone. I put the oldest sheets/comforter I had on the beds and let go. I stopped buying new/replacements as it drove me crazy! Exception = my space!
So reading back, and then reading your responses, I think part of me did well, but I still let some of what he said get under my skin. More work on detachment!
I like the saying, "I am sorry you feel that way." I've used it before, I don't know why I couldn't think to say that this time... I guess b/c I was so flabbergasted he would accuse me of that. And perhaps b/c it came just 2 days after he made a big deal of telling me that an ex-high school GF was Facebooking him. Back in the day I was very jealous of her... but I just told him, "I have no problem with her contacting you. It's no big deal, we're all adults now." B/c frankly, if he wants to give all this sh*t to another women, I say go for it! I'd be so thankful! LOL!!!But now I get it... I have stopped acting in the manner that 1. He's used to, and 2. One that coddles and baby's him so it can appear cold and unfeeling.
I try not to clean up his stuff, but we live in a very tiny house. So vomit, or blood or bottles I can't stand "in my face." I do not have, and cannot create my "own space." And really, I just picked it up and gave to him to throw away. But I think I didn't want my son to see it - that was before I knew that DS walked in on him guzzling it down!
I just wish I could have another portion of the house that is almost entirely separate (like a basement) so that he can just live down there when he drinks. I guess I can feel that I no longer want to live this way, despite using detachment, and despite the good periods. I keep coming back to the phrase, "Nothing changes if nothing changes." I mean, I am making changes for myself - but they are tiny changes - they do make life a little easier, but I am finding I want A LOT easier!
Enjoy your holiday weekend!
Aloha PNP and thanks for the memories...I loved everyone I had cause most came from the recovery portion of my life. Yahooo those were and still are powerful times as I took control of myself and exercised self love. I remembered about keeping my responses during these times "short and simple" and so with the help of my sponsor I collected one that would work each and every time my alcoholic/addict wife was trying to overpower me with shame and guilt and it was "No...you're wrong" (quietly and without much reaction) and then walk away nicely. I refused to take part in the push/pull alcoholic arguments and they went away.
Refuse to participate.
I can still hear the lesson and my sponsors laugh when he got to the part "and words can really hurt me"....remember the poem Sticks and Stones.? Pat yourself on the back cause you've done good. (((((hugs)))))
The gift that I received was to read and read and while doing so I came across five other posts from women who were being told the exact same thing. They too were being told that they weren't there for their spouses even though the worry and concern that came through in their posts completely contradicted what they were being told. That cured me of believing everything my husband said!!!
I learnt to trust my own reality and then I started to learn how I could shape my own reality for the better as well. By putting my own sanity at the top of my priority list I was better able to help my husband, although the alcohol gremlins spent a couple of years telling him otherwise. My thinking was 'I can't join you where you are just now, but I'm aiming to be healthy and happy and to be content in my own life. That way, when you get better, I'll be there to celebrate alongside you.' I didn't tell my husband any of this, these are just the reasons why I chose to stand aside from chaos as best I could. What I did say to my husband was, as others have said above, 'I'm sorry you feel that way' or 'I disagree'. Walking away from a tantrum or bad behaviour seemed good. I had a right to my own calm space. Really, I did!!
I think that those hurtful words I was hearing were actually my husband projecting his thoughts about himself onto others because accepting his own behaviour at the time was more than he could bear. Doesn't make it ok though, and they do bruise so I had to find ways of counteracting those bruises. But letting those words hang in the air rather than trying to defend myself unnecessarily left him having to pick some of them up himself eventually.
It took a lot of strength to let someone I love hurt so much, but I resolved to set an example of how positive life could be by doing things I enjoyed.
As Jerry says, you've done good, great in fact! (((((Hugs)))))
This sounds like you are trying to have a logical, intellect-based, normal, healthy conversation...with someone who is not logical, not able to have an intellect-based conversation, not normal and healthy...and so on. See? You can't apply logic to an illogical person and illogical situation. Nothing changes if nothing changes. Perhaps it's time for you to change?
Now, you say, focus on your question? Check your motives. It sounds like you are trying to be right, trying to prove a point, several of them actually, trying to get him to see what you see, etc.
I would never engage to the extent and depth that you are -- my boundary is that I will not engage with my AS when she's been drinking. I detach, completely, both physically and emotionally. I am not trying to prove my point or have her see my perspective, or anything of the like.
I would meet with your sponsor and talk about this. Remember, nothing changes if nothing changes.
I think you did good....my AH #1 used to toss that at me and i never engaged....i used the J A D E i never justified myself...didn't argue.....didn't defend my actions...and did not explain myself....didn't have to......AND kept it short and simple when I did have to talk...like "sorry you feel that way" and get the hell out or in my own room (we had separate bedrooms becuz of his snoring when smashed) and that was BEFORE alanon...I just didn't want to talk with him..so it was natural to keep it at minimum...i do that with folks I do not like or want to be around....keep it minimal and leave when I can......and you did good!!!!!!
Welcome, Vampvet. I think more people will see your post if you post it as a seperate thread instead of in the middle of this one. Glad you have found the Board!
Hello Vampvet Welcome , Alcoholism is a chronic progressive disease over which we powerless Alanon is a recovery program for family members who have lived with the insanity of the disease and do hold face to face meetings in most communities. There is hope and help so please check out the face to face meetings in your community and attend. The hot line # can be found in the white pages.
Keep coming back
hello Vampvet....I agree...I almost didn't see you to welcome you.....glad you found us as well......as to your A, it depends on his heart and his commitment....doesn't matter if recovery is basic or fancy, they gotta HUNGER for recovery...be obsessed with arresting this disease and working their program....90 meets in 90 days, and then??? at least 3x per week ...working the steps, slogans...if hes really reeeeeely serious, he will glom onto the program like a python...........hoping THIS time is it...meantime??? I hope you hang out with us and work YOUR program to take care of you........we are here..........we are listening