I was wondering if you would provide some wisdom on this...
This morning I got a text from my AH. It read "I just wanted to tell you I love you." Now, we are not separated, but I am living "As IF" in the house. I have told him I think we should separate, but I don't think he remembers my statement (he was drinking at the time) and I haven't followed through b/c I really don't want to uproot my son.
When I got the text I didn't know what to respond with. I was tempted to just ignore it and tell him later that I didn't get it. But a little voice in my head said that would be "old behavior" for me and I should just sit and try to find an appropriate answer for his text. It actually took me awhile.
This is what I ended up responding with: "I love the real you too. And I am proud of how you still financially support us! I just hate the addiction and all the fallout/chaos that surrounds it. I just can't roll with that anymore. I long for tranquility and stability.
His response... "I know, I am working on it."
So my question to all of you is -
What do you do when their version of "working on it" doesn't jive with your version of "working on it?"
Is it wrong for me to even have a version? Better yet, to enforce that version on him? I am wondering when does my boundary of having a program and really working it begin to be trying to "impose" my will on the Qualifier? When have you (if you've experienced this) told your Qualifier that their version of "working on it" just doesn't cut it for you?
Because if my AH and I are being honest, he's been trying to work on it for 5 months! But he doesn't go to meetings, doesn't have a sponsor, doesn't even open his BIg Book that he got from his last rehab from meth. I feel like we could just go on forever like this if I allow it.
Thank you for any ESH!
Mattie said
May 22, 2017
I bet the news that his "working on it" is not great for you would not actually be news to him. I'm sure he knows that if you got to decide how things went, his drinking wouldn't be something you'd choose.
But on the other hand, his verison of "working on it" is not bad enough to cause you to leave, because you haven't left. So in a way your actions have already said how you feel about it. Our actions really speak louder than words. My guess is that he wouldn't believe that you like it enough to leave unless you left. I told my A how much I hated it so many times, but my actions said "I'll put up with it even if I don't like it." That was the actual truth, until my truth changed.
I don't mean to tell you what your truth should be. It's different for everyone. Just that you are probably "speaking" to him already. Take good care of yourself.
2HP said
May 22, 2017
There is a wonderful story about a mother who brings her son to meet with Gandhi, she is all upset that her son is obsessed with eating too much sugar and she fears for his health. Gandhi listens to the concerned mother and after thinking for awhile, he tells them to come back in two weeks.
After two weeks had passed, they come back and Gandhi looks at the boy and says, "my son, you should not eat so much sugar, it is bad for your health."
The mother was curious and asked, "Why did you not tell him this two weeks ago????"
He said, "because I had an obsession with sugar myself. And I had to stop it first."
This story illustrates how I try to change my loved ones today - by working on freeing myself. I practice living the life I want to live, regardless of what they are doing.
-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 22nd of May 2017 02:55:29 PM
SerenityRUS said
May 22, 2017
If I'm having to state something more than once and I have already stated it clearly then I have to go back to my issues of control.
It's one of those things that comes back to me of what do I want vs what the other person is or isn't doing.
Those are hard habits to let go of and be ok .. I have been learning to let go and trust what my HP's plan is for me. I agree with IAM .. it is MY actions the A is paying attention to .. not my words .. where I am paying attention to the A's words and not their actions.
Hugs S :)
Iamhere said
May 22, 2017
In my world, I am tickled pink with progress. When my sons went from falling down, unemployable, nodding off at dinner, poor hygiene and the like to just smoking pot, I was still very concerned but grateful. When my AH stopped stumbling around, raging at everyone and instead was sneaking/drinking until his heart disease began, I was grateful.
To expect an alcoholic to begin recovery, stay sober and be attentive, loving, employed and caring - is probably too much. This is a disease and without treatment, progress is about as good as it gets. I also fully understand that this disease kills people. I've watched it, and for me, it would be a hard pill to swallow if I wasn't able to be me and speak my heart.
So - when they are 'behaving badly', and reach out, I say what I mean, mean what I say and don't say it mean. I don't dwell on the past nor do I forecast the future. If/when I get an I Love You text, I answer I Love You Too. Because, at the end of the day, I do - disease and dysfunction. I might add, have a good day. I might not.
Where I've had to work is the I'm Sorry texts. The people-pleaser in me used to say, It's OK. I then graduated to, "Thank you for apologizing." And my latest response added to the 'possible responses' is "You Should Be."
Nobody is perfect and nobody will ever meet my expectations, especially if they are unrealistic. When I am honest with myself, most of mine are unrealistic. In my best effort to KIS (Keep it Simple), I hope to be treated with respect, I hope to be treated kindly and I hope they find a happy journey some day. I expect to live spiritually in spite of what they do/don't do and I expect my faith to carry me when I fall down.
When I stay focused on me and my journey, all just goes much better. Unless it's extremely important, I don't ask questions or pressure mine for anything. What I have learned in recovery is we each need to hit our own bottom and then we recover and change. I can not tell another what their bottom is or should be and don't want to hear what others think of my bottom (ha.ha.ha.....- I mean program bottom).
I am always well within recovery in sharing what I want and need using I statements. As soon as the word YOU enters my throat, I've slipped and am taking another's inventory. That's not healthy for me as it starts a snowball process where I keep piling on, blaming others, allowing ego back in which means I'm Edging God Out.
So - choices are a wonderful gift in recovery. You can choose to respond. You can choose to wait. You can choose to not respond. You get to decide if/how as well as intent/content. Growing up in recovery becomes joyful and quite fun when we are putting self first instead of others...
The less I say (in recovery), the more they hear. I agree that actions speak loudly - good and bad. Theirs and ours. I do love that you paused and considered what/when/if about your response. Huge growth right there!! Keep working it!
pumkin26 said
May 22, 2017
PosiesandPuppies, great topic and share! Your questions at the end are things I have thought or think about too. I don't ask my A if he is in recovery, or if he's drinking, etc. My world doesn't revolve around him anymore. But he will sometimes bring it up, but (and this is great, along the same lines as "working on it") he says "I am not drinking as much, I've cut wayyyy back". Takes every once of restraint in me not to retort and give him my opinion on that statement. I just say ok and keep my mouth shut.
We started attending a church a few years ago, family church, and this was at the beginning of the active alcoholism (I say that bc for the longest time it was pot, not alcohol) anyways, he only went a couple times bc what was being said really hit home. And I would sit there and with my MIND POWERS say "YES! I hope he is listening, YES! Did he hear THAT?" haha And then when he stopped going the boys and I would still go and I would sit there resentful, listening and thinking "Why isn't he here!?!?!? He NEEEEDSSS to hear this!!"... Eventually I stopped going for various reasons.
Everyone's response to this topic is so helpful and I am hearing "nothing changes if nothing changes". I see that now in My recovery. My A texted me out of the blue one day while he was out hanging with the boys and he said "You don't seem like yourself" (wow, isn't that powerful!) I said "What do you mean?"... And that week in my F2F meeting we had a reading about "who am I?" I am changing and he can tell. Some days I feel like a mess, the changes are small (to me) but for him must seem huge.
I also struggle with response to texts. My friend in Al-Anon says "Pumkin, you don't have to answer right away! You can make a choice" This is super hard for me. I can respond with a simple "I love you too" because I do, I love the Man hate the disease (I've said that once to him, in person and his response was "that is fair"). The I'm sorry text (Iamhere) is a trickier one. Is it really an apology or is it manipulation. If I say I am sorry "no you aren't" and on and on... right? But when he says he's sorry I am just supposed to forgive. That's why "I'm sorry" is tricky. I like the "you should be" haha I might try that one next time!
Sorry for taking over your post... haha
(((Hugs))) to all! Thank you!
PosiesandPuppies said
May 23, 2017
Mattie, there is truth in what you say... I am not leaving, so he is seeing that I am willing to put up with a certain amount of crap. I will have to think more on this. Thank you.
Serenity - I liked your share... I always have to be aware of my underlying need to control what others are doing. That is something that Al-Anon keeps me aware of.
IamHere - thank you for your wise words... i like the say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean... and I think I did that with my response. I just feel like I needed to say something about how I felt to him, not just repeating his words back to him.
pumkin - you did not take over my post, so don't worry! I see a lot of my situation in what you post.
Thank you all. Tonight my AH seemed off. A little mad, a little sad & a little tipsy. Just as I figured b/c I know that he hates to hear the truth from me. At least he wasn't wasted beyond comprehension.t A weird thing is happening with him. He is coughing a lot and he says he is coughing up blood. "I thought it was because of the drinking, but i have been sober 14 days now" he tells me. Wow. Really. So I just said, "Perhaps it is something caused by the drinking." He kind of half-heartedly agreed. LOL! "I need to see a doctor!"
"Well, I still have the check I wrote for your doctor's visit you decided to not go to, so use that."
"Yea, I guess."
I swear, I think he creates these "symptoms" for attention! After a year of doctors and tests - all costing so much - then to find out it's all caused by the alcohol, I am hesitant to put a lot of credence in each new "symptom" of his! I need to work on me so that I don't get sucked into this.
pumkin26 said
May 23, 2017
OMG the symptoms! Yes! "Something is wrong with my heart, my heart hurts, my chest hurts, My calf hurts I must have a blod clot, I'm having a heart attack" oh the litany! Yes, its called withdrawal symptoms... and then sometimes I get "well it can't possibly be withdrawal I haven't drank in 4 days" RIGHT bc it's just magically OK. I had to take him to the ER in the middle of the night, yep- get our two sons out of bed- and take him" Guess what, heart was normal- shocking. This was long before I found Al-anon... We waited in the car, but I just KNEW he wasn't telling them the truth in there. So they sent him home with Valium. Haha so he says he doesn't want to take those bc he doesn't want to get addicted. I get it. He's to the point where I really feel he needs in treatment (safe) detox bc the physical symptoms are real- they start just hours after drinking. He's playing a dangerous game that I have no control over. But he swears when he's ready he can just stop. Ya, ok, whatever. He swears all his "symptoms" are from the stress of his (important) job and such... oh but that's why he drinks too!
2HP said
May 24, 2017
This thread illustrates the problem we share with the alcoholic...
He just couldn't stop drinking
and I just couldn't stop thinking
... about his drinking.
I had him under a microscope, watching his every move every day.
Eventually I was given my marching orders, I was told to start doing everything I wanted Him to do....
when I wanted HIM to get to a meeting ... I went to a meeting.
when I wanted HIM to get a sponsor... I got a sponsor.
when I wanted him to "work on it".... I worked on it.
whenever I want others to do something, I apply our slogan LET IT BEGIN WITH ME
because nothing changes until something changes (((hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 24th of May 2017 07:23:18 PM
pumkin26 said
May 24, 2017
Wow! Great (simple) way to look at it! Thank you 2HP!!
Iamhere said
May 24, 2017
Love that share 2HP - so simple, yet so profound and spot on......all my words were intended to say what you just said - I never had to vacate my home to find my peace because I changed me/my focus/my outlook and my attitude. And - the best gift of all - if I ever decide leaving is the answer, that's OK too! I got my own home, my own finances and now a super sonic support group that would not only support me - they'd help me move if needed!
The hardest part of recovery is finding the humility to just ask for help from others....I so struggled and now, I hardly go without consulting another or inviting another along for the journey!
(((Hugs))) - this is a great thread!
2HP said
May 24, 2017
@IAM, I can't tell you how many meetings I had been to where someone would stand up and ask for help with moving.... I never thought the day would come that I would have to ask. You would not believe the army that showed up that day, Higher Power is so very generous, giving His children what they need, when they need it.
...And your post reminds me of "unconditional happiness," I am smiling all over. I had heard of unconditional happiness at a conference long ago, where the speaker believed it is our "spiritual duty" to be happy.
I so wish I could drive to PosiesandPuppies house to pick her up for a meeting tomorrow night... we like to go out for french fries afterwards (((hugs)))
Iamhere said
May 24, 2017
I have to confess.....French Fries are my all-time favorite food!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would fit in well.....ha.ha.ha.ha.... I actually love potatoes in all forms - baked, fried, boiled, mashed - you name it...I'm down!!
I'm hearing a road trip - I have to collect myself from my parent trip then I'm down! I still think we need to do a MIP reunion in Jerry's area - Hawaii!!!
KT2015 said
May 24, 2017
Posies
I think you got brilliant answers here already. I agree that the answer for me was focusing on myself. The first clue that I have to go back to step one about something is when I start focusing on what someone else is doing or I am taking their inventory. That is what makes my life unmanageable. I have opinions on what my husband should and shouldn't do to find sobriety but it's not my place or my journey to advise or judge. When I find myself focusing on him I go back to step one two and three. There's usually something about me I could or should be focusing on.
KT2015 said
May 24, 2017
Road trip and french fries....I'm in!!
PosiesandPuppies said
May 25, 2017
Pumkin - our lives with our AH's sound very similiar!
2HP - I love your share (poem?)! it is so true! I would love some French fries! Actually, I am with Iamhere... I love potatoes any way they are fixed!
Good morning MIP peeps!
I was wondering if you would provide some wisdom on this...
This morning I got a text from my AH. It read "I just wanted to tell you I love you." Now, we are not separated, but I am living "As IF" in the house. I have told him I think we should separate, but I don't think he remembers my statement (he was drinking at the time) and I haven't followed through b/c I really don't want to uproot my son.
When I got the text I didn't know what to respond with. I was tempted to just ignore it and tell him later that I didn't get it. But a little voice in my head said that would be "old behavior" for me and I should just sit and try to find an appropriate answer for his text. It actually took me awhile.
This is what I ended up responding with: "I love the real you too. And I am proud of how you still financially support us! I just hate the addiction and all the fallout/chaos that surrounds it. I just can't roll with that anymore. I long for tranquility and stability.
His response... "I know, I am working on it."
So my question to all of you is -
What do you do when their version of "working on it" doesn't jive with your version of "working on it?"
Is it wrong for me to even have a version? Better yet, to enforce that version on him? I am wondering when does my boundary of having a program and really working it begin to be trying to "impose" my will on the Qualifier? When have you (if you've experienced this) told your Qualifier that their version of "working on it" just doesn't cut it for you?
Because if my AH and I are being honest, he's been trying to work on it for 5 months! But he doesn't go to meetings, doesn't have a sponsor, doesn't even open his BIg Book that he got from his last rehab from meth. I feel like we could just go on forever like this if I allow it.
Thank you for any ESH!
I bet the news that his "working on it" is not great for you would not actually be news to him. I'm sure he knows that if you got to decide how things went, his drinking wouldn't be something you'd choose.
But on the other hand, his verison of "working on it" is not bad enough to cause you to leave, because you haven't left. So in a way your actions have already said how you feel about it. Our actions really speak louder than words. My guess is that he wouldn't believe that you like it enough to leave unless you left. I told my A how much I hated it so many times, but my actions said "I'll put up with it even if I don't like it." That was the actual truth, until my truth changed.
I don't mean to tell you what your truth should be. It's different for everyone. Just that you are probably "speaking" to him already. Take good care of yourself.
There is a wonderful story about a mother who brings her son to meet with Gandhi, she is all upset that her son is obsessed with eating too much sugar and she fears for his health. Gandhi listens to the concerned mother and after thinking for awhile, he tells them to come back in two weeks.
After two weeks had passed, they come back and Gandhi looks at the boy and says, "my son, you should not eat so much sugar, it is bad for your health."
The mother was curious and asked, "Why did you not tell him this two weeks ago????"
He said, "because I had an obsession with sugar myself. And I had to stop it first."
This story illustrates how I try to change my loved ones today - by working on freeing myself. I practice living the life I want to live, regardless of what they are doing.
-- Edited by 2HP on Monday 22nd of May 2017 02:55:29 PM
It's one of those things that comes back to me of what do I want vs what the other person is or isn't doing.
Those are hard habits to let go of and be ok .. I have been learning to let go and trust what my HP's plan is for me. I agree with IAM .. it is MY actions the A is paying attention to .. not my words .. where I am paying attention to the A's words and not their actions.
Hugs S :)
To expect an alcoholic to begin recovery, stay sober and be attentive, loving, employed and caring - is probably too much. This is a disease and without treatment, progress is about as good as it gets. I also fully understand that this disease kills people. I've watched it, and for me, it would be a hard pill to swallow if I wasn't able to be me and speak my heart.
So - when they are 'behaving badly', and reach out, I say what I mean, mean what I say and don't say it mean. I don't dwell on the past nor do I forecast the future. If/when I get an I Love You text, I answer I Love You Too. Because, at the end of the day, I do - disease and dysfunction. I might add, have a good day. I might not.
Where I've had to work is the I'm Sorry texts. The people-pleaser in me used to say, It's OK. I then graduated to, "Thank you for apologizing." And my latest response added to the 'possible responses' is "You Should Be."
Nobody is perfect and nobody will ever meet my expectations, especially if they are unrealistic. When I am honest with myself, most of mine are unrealistic. In my best effort to KIS (Keep it Simple), I hope to be treated with respect, I hope to be treated kindly and I hope they find a happy journey some day. I expect to live spiritually in spite of what they do/don't do and I expect my faith to carry me when I fall down.
When I stay focused on me and my journey, all just goes much better. Unless it's extremely important, I don't ask questions or pressure mine for anything. What I have learned in recovery is we each need to hit our own bottom and then we recover and change. I can not tell another what their bottom is or should be and don't want to hear what others think of my bottom (ha.ha.ha.....- I mean program bottom).
I am always well within recovery in sharing what I want and need using I statements. As soon as the word YOU enters my throat, I've slipped and am taking another's inventory. That's not healthy for me as it starts a snowball process where I keep piling on, blaming others, allowing ego back in which means I'm Edging God Out.
So - choices are a wonderful gift in recovery. You can choose to respond. You can choose to wait. You can choose to not respond. You get to decide if/how as well as intent/content. Growing up in recovery becomes joyful and quite fun when we are putting self first instead of others...
The less I say (in recovery), the more they hear. I agree that actions speak loudly - good and bad. Theirs and ours. I do love that you paused and considered what/when/if about your response. Huge growth right there!! Keep working it!
We started attending a church a few years ago, family church, and this was at the beginning of the active alcoholism (I say that bc for the longest time it was pot, not alcohol) anyways, he only went a couple times bc what was being said really hit home. And I would sit there and with my MIND POWERS say "YES! I hope he is listening, YES! Did he hear THAT?" haha And then when he stopped going the boys and I would still go and I would sit there resentful, listening and thinking "Why isn't he here!?!?!? He NEEEEDSSS to hear this!!"... Eventually I stopped going for various reasons.
Everyone's response to this topic is so helpful and I am hearing "nothing changes if nothing changes". I see that now in My recovery. My A texted me out of the blue one day while he was out hanging with the boys and he said "You don't seem like yourself" (wow, isn't that powerful!) I said "What do you mean?"... And that week in my F2F meeting we had a reading about "who am I?" I am changing and he can tell. Some days I feel like a mess, the changes are small (to me) but for him must seem huge.
I also struggle with response to texts. My friend in Al-Anon says "Pumkin, you don't have to answer right away! You can make a choice" This is super hard for me. I can respond with a simple "I love you too" because I do, I love the Man hate the disease (I've said that once to him, in person and his response was "that is fair"). The I'm sorry text (Iamhere) is a trickier one. Is it really an apology or is it manipulation. If I say I am sorry "no you aren't" and on and on... right? But when he says he's sorry I am just supposed to forgive. That's why "I'm sorry" is tricky. I like the "you should be" haha I might try that one next time!
Sorry for taking over your post... haha
(((Hugs))) to all! Thank you!
Serenity - I liked your share... I always have to be aware of my underlying need to control what others are doing. That is something that Al-Anon keeps me aware of.
IamHere - thank you for your wise words... i like the say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean... and I think I did that with my response. I just feel like I needed to say something about how I felt to him, not just repeating his words back to him.
pumkin - you did not take over my post, so don't worry! I see a lot of my situation in what you post.
Thank you all. Tonight my AH seemed off. A little mad, a little sad & a little tipsy. Just as I figured b/c I know that he hates to hear the truth from me. At least he wasn't wasted beyond comprehension.t A weird thing is happening with him. He is coughing a lot and he says he is coughing up blood. "I thought it was because of the drinking, but i have been sober 14 days now" he tells me. Wow. Really. So I just said, "Perhaps it is something caused by the drinking." He kind of half-heartedly agreed. LOL! "I need to see a doctor!"
"Well, I still have the check I wrote for your doctor's visit you decided to not go to, so use that."
"Yea, I guess."
I swear, I think he creates these "symptoms" for attention! After a year of doctors and tests - all costing so much - then to find out it's all caused by the alcohol, I am hesitant to put a lot of credence in each new "symptom" of his! I need to work on me so that I don't get sucked into this.
This thread illustrates the problem we share with the alcoholic...
He just couldn't stop drinking
and I just couldn't stop thinking
... about his drinking.
I had him under a microscope, watching his every move every day.
Eventually I was given my marching orders, I was told to start doing everything I wanted Him to do....
when I wanted HIM to get to a meeting ... I went to a meeting.
when I wanted HIM to get a sponsor... I got a sponsor.
when I wanted him to "work on it".... I worked on it.
whenever I want others to do something, I apply our slogan LET IT BEGIN WITH ME
because nothing changes until something changes (((hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 24th of May 2017 07:23:18 PM
The hardest part of recovery is finding the humility to just ask for help from others....I so struggled and now, I hardly go without consulting another or inviting another along for the journey!
(((Hugs))) - this is a great thread!
...And your post reminds me of "unconditional happiness," I am smiling all over. I had heard of unconditional happiness at a conference long ago, where the speaker believed it is our "spiritual duty" to be happy.
I so wish I could drive to PosiesandPuppies house to pick her up for a meeting tomorrow night... we like to go out for french fries afterwards (((hugs)))
I'm hearing a road trip - I have to collect myself from my parent trip then I'm down! I still think we need to do a MIP reunion in Jerry's area - Hawaii!!!
2HP - I love your share (poem?)! it is so true! I would love some French fries! Actually, I am with Iamhere... I love potatoes any way they are fixed!
Thank you for your ESH, KT2015!