court date thurs - would love ESH from anyone who has been through this
oceanpine said
May 9, 2017
hi friends -
have been lurking lots but not posting. Started a full-time job in Feb, and between that and full-time parenting 2 kids, I have less energy than I ever have.
This week, my STBX AH and I go to court for the first time. I am very very grateful that our children are both away on a school trip all week, so are spared their mother being on edge and their father being - who knows. This court date is for our temporary orders, which is the custody and financial issues that will be in place until our divorce is finalized. I have asked for full custody during this time, which just legally would continue what I have been doing since September, when my AH got in a hit and run accident, and the lies and associated stuff that accompanied it. (Before that, we were sharing kids 50/50).
So for the past 7 months, I have been driving the kids everywhere since he will not do anything to build trust or show me he is sober before driving them. When they are going to spend time at his house, I drive them up there, and I pick them up after. I have endured many unpleasant or uncomfortable situations in doing so - sometimes he is fine, but other times, I go in to pick the kids up, and he says provocative stuff (i.e., not keeping all this crap away from the kids). Or, if I stay in my car and ask the kids to come out, he will walk out too, and I have to talk to him while I sit in my car. I really hate it. I feel like a sitting duck. Anyhow, my biggest hope and prayer with this parenting plan during temporary orders is that it will help me by establishing guidelines, and/or consequences on him. However, we have very little "proof" to back us up - mostly my testimony. No DUIs - just the hit and run that was reduced to reckless driving, thanks to his charming persuasive skills, I am sure. No job losses, etc.
So the parenting plan says that:
he must be alcohol free for 24 hours before, and during, his time with the kids (which is every other weekend on this plan).
I will provide all transportation.
If I have a "reasonable belief" that he has consumed alcohol prior or during parenting time, I may request he submit to a breathalyzer to test for substances...if positive, parenting time immediately ends.
Both parents shall obtain a breathalyzer app on their phones, which will send test results to me and show him completing the test.
------
I know I will never get everything I want. I might not get any of this. Who knows what the judge will decide. BUT -- as I read it, I have this sinking feeling. I will still have to drive them to and from his house. It isn't a 'pull up at the curb' house - I have to turn into a driveway, and walk up to the house, and do a multi-point turn to get out of there.
In terms of a "reasonable belief" -- he is so sneaky. It is often really hard to tell if he has been drinking. I have a terrible sense of smell. He doesn't slur or stumble - I mostly suspect he has been drinking by his behavior. He is a verbal master at talking in circles - the times I have had doubts and asked him to breathalyze (which he originally suggested, asking me to buy us each a breathalyzer), he has refused, and made things difficult and unpleasant in front of the kids, where I end up looking like the bad guy.
I have to get back to my attorney today, regarding if this plan is ok with me. I can't shake this feeling that this is just a bunch of words, and I will be left in the same place I am now, which is having to be a policeman, and a chauffeur who dreads more and more my trips to drop the kids off and pick them up.
Would appreciate any thoughts on this, sharing of your experience, etc. Thank you!
oceanpine said
May 9, 2017
by the way: I attend Alanon meetings here as regularly as I can - which has been challenged by this job. However, nobody in my local groups has this issue (the drinking and driving of kids). My sponsor had this issue over ten years ago - and her experience was that the court system really did nothing to protect her or the kids - he had 50/50, there was nothing she could do about him driving them, etc. I may end up in the same place as her, based on my experience, but at this point, I want to give it my best shot, and hope the court helps me in some way. If it doesn't, she will (continue to) be a great support in living the serenity prayer: accepting what I can't change, and changing what I can, but right now I am trying to change what I can using the legal system, if that makes any sense.
SerenityRUS said
May 9, 2017
Hugs .. I recommend that you keep a timeline of dropping off the kids what has been going on and I keep dates and times. I show the long blocks of time with no contact.
For me I DID get everything I wanted I honestly just waited for him to screw up and acted accordingly. His attorney just looked at him and said .. S is going to get everything and more if you continue .. sign the papers and be done. Soooo .. all I can say is keep it reasonable (safety is completely reasonable) focus on safety for the kids and in mine I was able to add that the kids had the right to decide when visitation was over .. that means if they believed or witnessed him drinking visitation was DONE. If the police showed up daughter showed the parenting agreement he would have to blow and that was the end of it.
Everything works out the way it is suppose to I DO encourage you to have a support system so you can get a break .. in my case my X just completely dropped off the map.
Big hugs it sounds like you are doing everything you need to do for peace of mind.
S :)
Mattie said
May 9, 2017
I would find out how other people have done the breathalyzer requirement - for instance, what happens if it fails to do it?
In my own situation, I assumed my A was drinking and would continue to drink. All of these turned out to be true. What I required was that he come to take our child out, and that they spend 2 hours together, and that they walk (no driving). We could do this because we live in a city where they could easily walk to a pizza place, the park, etc. But that meant that I didn't have to drive our child to him, and that if he got too drunk to do custody, he would just fail to show up, which happened a couple of times.
I would worry that the breathalyzer thing would backfire, with him refusing to do it, or yelling "This thing is wrong!", or refusing to hand the kids over, or whatever. I fully sympathize with your wanting a way to withdraw the kids, and wanting to make sure he's not drunk.
I think in your shoes I would reduce the visitation to a couple of hours a week, and put it on him to take the initiative (which he might not do). Don't know if that would work, but that would be my Plan A.
SerenityRUS said
May 9, 2017
I was very lucky in that regard and Mattie totally has points spot on about assuming the issue of active drinking (which I assume is why you are driving the kids) .. because it took forever to get a parenting agreement pretty much I called the shots .. if nothing is in writing there are pluses and minuses to those situations .. thankfully my X was just to out of it to know his rights or to act on them. He was completely terrified of me (I'm not bragging that's just a simple fact .. lol all 5'4" of me he's 6'5").
There are direct consequences to these things that I didn't realize .. I did ALL of the driving which was hard .. he did NONE of the visitation even when we got the parenting agreement signed he did not take the kids overnight (awful visitation that wound him up in jail, no I don't feel I was "wrong" the kids were scared he had hurt himself after they left). He could however he did not that made me the primary parent. It made me the primary everything. So moving out of state for me it's a norm the kids did not go with him on the weekends. I have found friends and their families that in the name of giving me peace for a moment they allowed me time to breathe when I would be in tears and at my limits which I had 2 kids .. 5 years apart .. I have had moments of hot mess.
Have a back up plan for visitation because you have to have ways to do your own caretaking and self care without relying on visitation as a break .. that was my reality.
The other thing is know if you are the driver expect visitation to end early .. I found out later that was my X's way of exerting control. He knew in 2 hours what was I going to do .. get my hair done? Go out to dinner? I mean seriously, 2 hours every other weekend was no time to do anything even cleaning was not the norm during that time. So I did other things .. I went to a coffee shop, met a friend, played on the computer, .. it was zone out time.
I didn't expect that as a consequence .. it wasn't all bad .. the non breaks were the hardest.
A happy healthy mom means happy healthy kids. So self care during this time is critical. I am truly sorry things have come to this it's not easy to experience the death of a dream/fantasy .. it does get better and yes, sometimes some days are harder than others .. I don't know that I would change much.
Hugs S :)
Iamhere said
May 9, 2017
I have no experience in this but just a thought - if the breathalyzer works with an app. on phones and you both get the results, and you are just starting the court process, shoot for the moon and settle on the above. For example, I would ask that 1 hour prior to the start of visitation, he must do a breathalyzer test....this may save you from the drive-way confrontation if it's perfectly clear you aren't even getting in the car unless he's alcohol-free.
As a recovering A who was very, very good at manipulation, I would have gotten around this by using other substances on visitation weekends. Sad, but true - I never went a single day without mind/mood altering substances. Could not drink actively at work, so used other things. I guess my point - as you embark on this next phase of your journey with a good sponsor and program under your belt, trust your gut and listen to your children.
(((Hugs))) - sending you prayers for a positive outcome...
Mattie said
May 9, 2017
That's a good idea about getting him to do the breathalyzer an hour in advance - however, be aware that if you are not present, he will probably get someone else to breathe into it for him.
My experience is that they will simply drink anyway and to heck with the consequences. So really the question is not how to tell "Is he drinking?", but how to be able to prove it and call off the visitation, or to make it so the visitation is harmless to the children even if he's drinking. For instance, someone I know had court-supervised visitation where she delivered the kids and someone from the court supervised her ex's visitation with them. I don't think that's common (because it's expensive for the court) but it's sometimes done.
But on the whole, the more effort required from him to make the visitation happen, the better the chance that if he's drinking he'll just opt out of it and save you the aggravation. That's my experience.
Stan1 said
May 9, 2017
Hello oceanpine. During our separation, I had 50/50 will the understanding that any visits with the kids would be sober or he would lose his 50%. This was agreeable to my then AH as well as absolutely no taking them anywhere that adult beverages were served. The judge also required him to place a breathalyzer on his vehicle. They usually ended up going to the movies or to a car show. I made sure that my requests were respectful and reasonable as he is their father.
a4l said
May 9, 2017
Hugs oceanpine. I spent around seven years slugging stuff out in family court and it sucked. My best esh would be as much as possible not to let it consume you if that's in any way possible. Up the self care to quadruple, do stuff for yourself, and stay as innerly grounded as you can. That, and document, document,document. A pitbull for a lawyer helps, too, or at least someone who takes you seriously and puts forth everything relevant. Court is a marathon not a sprint, so even if it takes time to get what you want in place, just stay as healthy as you can and document in the meantime. Lots of love and prayers your way.
hotrod said
May 9, 2017
((OceanPine)) I do understand your concerns . Why not mention them to your attorney and then trust HP with the outcome. Positive thoughts on the way.
Helpangel said
May 9, 2017
You do not have to agree to drive them or any of that! In fact it would be better if u didn't bc if he showed up drunk you could refuse to give them to him. I doubt he will go for any of the stuff you are asking for bc then he would admit he was a alcoholic. Is there any witnesses you could bring? An expert like therapist that could write a letter. My advice is to try and get to full custody until an evaulation can be done with a therapist to evaluate Your concerns. It is his reasponsiblity to pick up his own children and if he is drunk do not give them have the police come or a friend neighbor witness it and have him take you back to court for a contempt of court violation. It will be dismissed. No judge would order you to be the transportation unless u volunteer to do it! I can't believe your attorney is ok for you to do this. If you want email me I have been in court several times for mine bc he's crazy. Honestly please email me. I refused to do 50/50. When you are in court leave emotion out it. State the facts and be as calm as possible. The judges want that. Don't give up or in. Do not settle u have more power than you know. I would ask for sole custody with scheduled visitation as long as he is deem sober. Also do not let the kids be away for more than 7 days at a time for their sakes over the summer. Do not make consecutive weeks. I'll email you my court order Just message me if you want a copy. My heart goes out to you! Ask for sole custody because you have done everything all doctors appointments, all visits, everything. Do not share to much with the judge and stay as calm as you can. Very important!!!
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:07:19 PM
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:10:43 PM
Helpangel said
May 9, 2017
many prayers
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:59:21 PM
Stan1 said
May 9, 2017
Hi again, I just have to clarify that I didn't file for full custody because I didn't need to. The children were living with me and my then AH was not interested in the children living with him. Everyone's situation is different and I agree with the above ESH's regarding it is helpful to have a good lawyer, upping self care and meetings.
oceanpine said
May 9, 2017
Thank you everyone for your input and ESH. I appreciate it and am sitting with it. A few quick replies:
Betty, I have shared my concerns with my attorney. She has modified this draft parenting plan several times in response to my concerns, but this last time, she added that I will be responsible for all driving, and I had a gut reaction against that because it forces me to go to his house etc. I will turn it over to my HP but I think my HP also wants me to use this time to make my intents and wishes as clear as possible, before my attorney and I finalize what I am proposing tomorrow. And then, thy will be done. This is just for the temporary situation that guides us til the divorce is final, but I am asking for full custody and for him to have the kids every other weekend. I cannot see any situation that really works, but time will tell.
Help angel, it is very difficult to tell if he is drunk/drinking. There is nothing obvious like slurring or stumbling. The last time he drove our son (after I told him not to, and that I would come pick our son up), I caught a whiff of alcohol on him. So I got out the breathalyzer and he refused. He denied that I smelled alcohol, and turned the tables of blame on me. This lack of proof has been so confusing that I often doubt myself.
I have a messy house I have to clean before a friend comes tomorrow, but I think I will invoke self care and go to bed instead! I am so grateful - my friend is driving 4 hours to be with me the night before my court date, accompany me to court, and stay 2 more nights. Her support, and all of yours, means so much to me.
a4l said
May 9, 2017
Another thought oceanpine. Is a third party an option? Like handovers to a third party who does the breathalyzing? In my time, I had supervisors and then there was one who just did handovers, parents dont see each other. We also did handovers in malls which was so awful, but might be OK with you? I wonder what is making you feel so uncomfortable. I hope you can work out what it is amongst all this stuff going on. I remember it as a very anxious time for me,fear of the unknown and having to let go against every instinct. You most definitely will be in my thoughts my friend. You've come so far already. Not to be dropped mid flight either, believe me on that one.
hi friends -
have been lurking lots but not posting. Started a full-time job in Feb, and between that and full-time parenting 2 kids, I have less energy than I ever have.
This week, my STBX AH and I go to court for the first time. I am very very grateful that our children are both away on a school trip all week, so are spared their mother being on edge and their father being - who knows. This court date is for our temporary orders, which is the custody and financial issues that will be in place until our divorce is finalized. I have asked for full custody during this time, which just legally would continue what I have been doing since September, when my AH got in a hit and run accident, and the lies and associated stuff that accompanied it. (Before that, we were sharing kids 50/50).
So for the past 7 months, I have been driving the kids everywhere since he will not do anything to build trust or show me he is sober before driving them. When they are going to spend time at his house, I drive them up there, and I pick them up after. I have endured many unpleasant or uncomfortable situations in doing so - sometimes he is fine, but other times, I go in to pick the kids up, and he says provocative stuff (i.e., not keeping all this crap away from the kids). Or, if I stay in my car and ask the kids to come out, he will walk out too, and I have to talk to him while I sit in my car. I really hate it. I feel like a sitting duck. Anyhow, my biggest hope and prayer with this parenting plan during temporary orders is that it will help me by establishing guidelines, and/or consequences on him. However, we have very little "proof" to back us up - mostly my testimony. No DUIs - just the hit and run that was reduced to reckless driving, thanks to his charming persuasive skills, I am sure. No job losses, etc.
So the parenting plan says that:
he must be alcohol free for 24 hours before, and during, his time with the kids (which is every other weekend on this plan).
I will provide all transportation.
If I have a "reasonable belief" that he has consumed alcohol prior or during parenting time, I may request he submit to a breathalyzer to test for substances...if positive, parenting time immediately ends.
Both parents shall obtain a breathalyzer app on their phones, which will send test results to me and show him completing the test.
------
I know I will never get everything I want. I might not get any of this. Who knows what the judge will decide. BUT -- as I read it, I have this sinking feeling. I will still have to drive them to and from his house. It isn't a 'pull up at the curb' house - I have to turn into a driveway, and walk up to the house, and do a multi-point turn to get out of there.
In terms of a "reasonable belief" -- he is so sneaky. It is often really hard to tell if he has been drinking. I have a terrible sense of smell. He doesn't slur or stumble - I mostly suspect he has been drinking by his behavior. He is a verbal master at talking in circles - the times I have had doubts and asked him to breathalyze (which he originally suggested, asking me to buy us each a breathalyzer), he has refused, and made things difficult and unpleasant in front of the kids, where I end up looking like the bad guy.
I have to get back to my attorney today, regarding if this plan is ok with me. I can't shake this feeling that this is just a bunch of words, and I will be left in the same place I am now, which is having to be a policeman, and a chauffeur who dreads more and more my trips to drop the kids off and pick them up.
Would appreciate any thoughts on this, sharing of your experience, etc. Thank you!
by the way: I attend Alanon meetings here as regularly as I can - which has been challenged by this job. However, nobody in my local groups has this issue (the drinking and driving of kids). My sponsor had this issue over ten years ago - and her experience was that the court system really did nothing to protect her or the kids - he had 50/50, there was nothing she could do about him driving them, etc. I may end up in the same place as her, based on my experience, but at this point, I want to give it my best shot, and hope the court helps me in some way. If it doesn't, she will (continue to) be a great support in living the serenity prayer: accepting what I can't change, and changing what I can, but right now I am trying to change what I can using the legal system, if that makes any sense.
For me I DID get everything I wanted I honestly just waited for him to screw up and acted accordingly. His attorney just looked at him and said .. S is going to get everything and more if you continue .. sign the papers and be done. Soooo .. all I can say is keep it reasonable (safety is completely reasonable) focus on safety for the kids and in mine I was able to add that the kids had the right to decide when visitation was over .. that means if they believed or witnessed him drinking visitation was DONE. If the police showed up daughter showed the parenting agreement he would have to blow and that was the end of it.
Everything works out the way it is suppose to I DO encourage you to have a support system so you can get a break .. in my case my X just completely dropped off the map.
Big hugs it sounds like you are doing everything you need to do for peace of mind.
S :)
I would find out how other people have done the breathalyzer requirement - for instance, what happens if it fails to do it?
In my own situation, I assumed my A was drinking and would continue to drink. All of these turned out to be true. What I required was that he come to take our child out, and that they spend 2 hours together, and that they walk (no driving). We could do this because we live in a city where they could easily walk to a pizza place, the park, etc. But that meant that I didn't have to drive our child to him, and that if he got too drunk to do custody, he would just fail to show up, which happened a couple of times.
I would worry that the breathalyzer thing would backfire, with him refusing to do it, or yelling "This thing is wrong!", or refusing to hand the kids over, or whatever. I fully sympathize with your wanting a way to withdraw the kids, and wanting to make sure he's not drunk.
I think in your shoes I would reduce the visitation to a couple of hours a week, and put it on him to take the initiative (which he might not do). Don't know if that would work, but that would be my Plan A.
There are direct consequences to these things that I didn't realize .. I did ALL of the driving which was hard .. he did NONE of the visitation even when we got the parenting agreement signed he did not take the kids overnight (awful visitation that wound him up in jail, no I don't feel I was "wrong" the kids were scared he had hurt himself after they left). He could however he did not that made me the primary parent. It made me the primary everything. So moving out of state for me it's a norm the kids did not go with him on the weekends. I have found friends and their families that in the name of giving me peace for a moment they allowed me time to breathe when I would be in tears and at my limits which I had 2 kids .. 5 years apart .. I have had moments of hot mess.
Have a back up plan for visitation because you have to have ways to do your own caretaking and self care without relying on visitation as a break .. that was my reality.
The other thing is know if you are the driver expect visitation to end early .. I found out later that was my X's way of exerting control. He knew in 2 hours what was I going to do .. get my hair done? Go out to dinner? I mean seriously, 2 hours every other weekend was no time to do anything even cleaning was not the norm during that time. So I did other things .. I went to a coffee shop, met a friend, played on the computer, .. it was zone out time.
I didn't expect that as a consequence .. it wasn't all bad .. the non breaks were the hardest.
A happy healthy mom means happy healthy kids. So self care during this time is critical. I am truly sorry things have come to this it's not easy to experience the death of a dream/fantasy .. it does get better and yes, sometimes some days are harder than others .. I don't know that I would change much.
Hugs S :)
As a recovering A who was very, very good at manipulation, I would have gotten around this by using other substances on visitation weekends. Sad, but true - I never went a single day without mind/mood altering substances. Could not drink actively at work, so used other things. I guess my point - as you embark on this next phase of your journey with a good sponsor and program under your belt, trust your gut and listen to your children.
(((Hugs))) - sending you prayers for a positive outcome...
That's a good idea about getting him to do the breathalyzer an hour in advance - however, be aware that if you are not present, he will probably get someone else to breathe into it for him.
My experience is that they will simply drink anyway and to heck with the consequences. So really the question is not how to tell "Is he drinking?", but how to be able to prove it and call off the visitation, or to make it so the visitation is harmless to the children even if he's drinking. For instance, someone I know had court-supervised visitation where she delivered the kids and someone from the court supervised her ex's visitation with them. I don't think that's common (because it's expensive for the court) but it's sometimes done.
But on the whole, the more effort required from him to make the visitation happen, the better the chance that if he's drinking he'll just opt out of it and save you the aggravation. That's my experience.
((OceanPine)) I do understand your concerns . Why not mention them to your attorney and then trust HP with the outcome. Positive thoughts on the way.
You do not have to agree to drive them or any of that! In fact it would be better if u didn't bc if he showed up drunk you could refuse to give them to him. I doubt he will go for any of the stuff you are asking for bc then he would admit he was a alcoholic. Is there any witnesses you could bring? An expert like therapist that could write a letter. My advice is to try and get to full custody until an evaulation can be done with a therapist to evaluate Your concerns. It is his reasponsiblity to pick up his own children and if he is drunk do not give them have the police come or a friend neighbor witness it and have him take you back to court for a contempt of court violation. It will be dismissed. No judge would order you to be the transportation unless u volunteer to do it! I can't believe your attorney is ok for you to do this. If you want email me I have been in court several times for mine bc he's crazy. Honestly please email me. I refused to do 50/50. When you are in court leave emotion out it. State the facts and be as calm as possible. The judges want that. Don't give up or in. Do not settle u have more power than you know. I would ask for sole custody with scheduled visitation as long as he is deem sober. Also do not let the kids be away for more than 7 days at a time for their sakes over the summer. Do not make consecutive weeks. I'll email you my court order Just message me if you want a copy. My heart goes out to you! Ask for sole custody because you have done everything all doctors appointments, all visits, everything. Do not share to much with the judge and stay as calm as you can. Very important!!!
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:07:19 PM
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:10:43 PM
many prayers
-- Edited by Helpangel on Tuesday 9th of May 2017 09:59:21 PM
Betty, I have shared my concerns with my attorney. She has modified this draft parenting plan several times in response to my concerns, but this last time, she added that I will be responsible for all driving, and I had a gut reaction against that because it forces me to go to his house etc. I will turn it over to my HP but I think my HP also wants me to use this time to make my intents and wishes as clear as possible, before my attorney and I finalize what I am proposing tomorrow. And then, thy will be done. This is just for the temporary situation that guides us til the divorce is final, but I am asking for full custody and for him to have the kids every other weekend. I cannot see any situation that really works, but time will tell.
Help angel, it is very difficult to tell if he is drunk/drinking. There is nothing obvious like slurring or stumbling. The last time he drove our son (after I told him not to, and that I would come pick our son up), I caught a whiff of alcohol on him. So I got out the breathalyzer and he refused. He denied that I smelled alcohol, and turned the tables of blame on me. This lack of proof has been so confusing that I often doubt myself.
I have a messy house I have to clean before a friend comes tomorrow, but I think I will invoke self care and go to bed instead! I am so grateful - my friend is driving 4 hours to be with me the night before my court date, accompany me to court, and stay 2 more nights. Her support, and all of yours, means so much to me.