How do you stick to your boundaries if your AH won't abide by them?
I understand boundaries are for YOU, not the alcoholic. So here is my examples:
My AH is angry that I took my teen son and the dog to my mom & dad's house last night. I have told him in the past that I can't handle being in the house when he is drinking/angry etc. His answer to that is, "HOw do you even know I was drinking... you DON'T!"
When he exhibits addict behaviors and/or smells of alcohol, I really lean into detachment, but that makes him sad/angry/confused and it makes the household not fun to be in. Again, b/c he says that I don't know FOR SURE if he's been drinking, and he says he hasn't so it MUST be true!
I want to tell him it's because he smells of alcohol, is slurring is words, cannot follow a reasonable conversation, is stumbling on his feet... but i don't. I've learned that kind of exchange just gets him angrier. Plus, I have learned here that you don't engage in that.
Yesterday I actually told him that I couldn't take this anymore and I want to separate. I don't think that even registered he was so focused on his indignation of being "accused" of eating the chicken I made for dinner ( He did, & lied about it initially).
He forgets so much of what he says, or I say, it's frightening. Mostly b/c he denies that it ever has occurred and gets mad at me for pointing it out! I bet he doesn't even remember that I said I wanted to separate.
I can't believe he can live with so much righteous anger about me thinking he has been drinking when it is obvious he has been. Even if I stick to doing just me, and not even worry about him, he is still affecting my ability to utilize my boundaries. How do you go about changing that? Or better yet, how do I handle myself in these situations better so that I may utilize my boundaries?
Aline said
May 6, 2017
I'm working on boundaries as well. Example - recently my abf imposed the immense importance of lying to his family about his drinking, stating he would be completely screwed if I said anything. To cut it short - he probably wouldn't get finances for some important equipment he needed/wanted. Well, I didn't call his family but finally got so sick about this lie (and enabling - since my lies would enable him to not experience consequences) I told the family. I was prepared to get diched and blamed a betrayer, since I knew the equipment was really important to him. You know what - they are still gonna help him with the money, and all I had to endure was being called a liar, which I technically wasn't - I didn't lie to him, I just didn't tell him anything. I don't regret "telling on" him, and wouldn't regret even if we did break up over this. I can't live peacefully and lie to the family about the drinking at the same time. I'm proud for taking care of myself and not continuing to enable, but it was really really hard.
I also have a lot of experience with forgetfullness and worse - him making things up about what I've said... I then try to simply remind it was so and so and leave it at that, not try to convince him of my "truth". There's no point as far as I have seen.
el-cee said
May 6, 2017
Do you go to meetings? The reason I ask is its difficult to pick up bits and pieces of the program and put it all together without the full experience. It's all interdependent. What I mean is in order to understand boundaries I had to get self esteem first and believe that I deserved better behaviour. I also had to have more understanding of the disease in both him and me. It kind of all links I think to try and get snippets and make sense of it is difficult. If you want change then go for it as fully as you can. Meetings sponsor readings steps. Without the foundations it's very difficult.
-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 6th of May 2017 07:49:01 AM
Enigmatic said
May 6, 2017
Hi Posies...In my experience, there was no doubt that if I continued to handle the challenges of living with an active drinker on my own, using my strategies and strength, I would fail again, as I had for three years before finding AlAnon. I did not get a sniff of sanity until I began using the wisdom and tools of the program every day and give up 'my way'.
When things were particularly challenging, I ramped up my face to face meetings, read more in my AlAnon literature on the topics I was struggling with, more time meditating, and fellowship with program members. This approach never failed to bring me the peace, clarity, and strength to get through it and see where I could make adjustments to improve things going forward.
Hang in there, keep working the program, and keep coming back
2HP said
May 6, 2017
I am reminded of a bit of guidance I received from my early Al- anon meetings. They had an acronym for DETACH:
DON'T
EVEN
THINK
ABOUT
CHANGING
HIM
and when I practiced that... when I stopped expecting HIM to change, I began to get a taste of the peace they were talking about. Detachment doesn't necessarily mean separation, it means acceptance of who and what they are. Everyone wants to be accepted as they are but when I resist... because I just can't get them to conform to my wishes... it creates ill will in the relationship, on top of the dis-ease.
I see you doing what I had been doing too... trying to fight a battle I could not win. but when I began to practice ACCEPTANCE that he really and truly is very very sick, and even insane... I began to let go of the thought that makes ME absolutely insane, the thought that an alcoholic addict SHOULD NOT ACT LIKE ONE.
That thought is insane and when I believe it, I am insane too. It's like insisting a paralytic person should walk.... !!!
Thankfully the al-anon tools steps restore my sanity. and when I actually saw others working and getting results from them, I was empowered to make them work for me too.
I hope to hear about your meetings and the messages your Higher Power is bringing to you there. when I suit up and show up, the teacher appears..... (God!)
(((hugs)))
p.s indeed, BOUNDARIES are about you and NOT a demand on others in hopes they will change. If your motive is to change him, it is a bad motive.... it assumes you have power. Boundaries are about self-care and protection and so you do not need him to agree or "register" with him, it only has to register with you. You may try stating it to him in a way that he cannot argue, you might just say, "I cannot be around you if I BELIEVE you are using." and then follow through with protecting your sanity regardless of how he feels about it. Your sponsor will help you understand these ideas.
shrnp said
May 6, 2017
Some alcoholics are persistent. I would just not talk about it anymore, and keep doing the things you are doing. Maybe, your actions will sink in eventually. The saying if you give them an inch they will take a mile comes to mind. It is not a conversation where two people can talk to one another.
Mcat54 said
May 6, 2017
I had to go back to a post from the summer to remind myself how I handled this kind of thing. We are living apart now and nearly divorced.
Keeping the focus on myself and what's acceptable to me, I said "I don't know what was happening this afternoon, but you were falling asleep like you have in the past when you've had several drinks. I don't want to ride in the car with you tonight." I didn't accuse him of drinking. I said the actions and behaviors were reminiscent of times when he had. I can notice the effects without witnessing the actual consumption. It's like saying, "I can't be bleeding because you didn't see me cut myself." Sheesh.
If he argued or pushed for answers, I would say, "I'm sharing what I am experiencing." Let's talk about this later when I'm in a better place, not upset, had some time to think, etc.
I learned with practice not to fix everything for both of us or spout answers and solutions on command.
I've found so much wisdom on this site and in the program. I hope you will also. Hugs.
PosiesandPuppies said
May 6, 2017
Thank you all for your ESH. I have indeed gone to F2F meetings. But I have yet to feel comfortable. That is probably why I am on here almost every night. As to my question, Mct54 & HP2, thank you. I will work on saying that I don't want to be here, or I don't want to engage if I believe you've had a drink. And perhaps just mentioning the behavior(s)... saying that the slurring and/or stumbling is impossible for me to watch. Something like that. I think taking the focus off just saying, "i think you've been drinking" will work wonders. I know I don't have to prove to anyone that he is drinking...and now I know how to "handle" his questioning of my boundaries as well.
Sometimes it is hard to stick to your boundaries when those very boundaries make your AH angry.
Peace to you, Aline... you sound like you know parts of my life very well.
el-cee said
May 7, 2017
I hope you get comfortable at a meeting soon it would be good to watch things get better for you.
Iamhere said
May 7, 2017
My sponsor happens to also be a counselor so ... her suggestions for me are often priceless!!! When my A(s) are upset, angry or spouting off, the fastest way to have them simmer down is to acknowledge their feelings....even if they appear to be misguided or insane, I will say, I am sorry that you are angry or I am sorry that you are hurting. She made me learn compassion as I did not have much for my A(s) when I arrived.
I've also been told that, "Yes", "No" are complete answers. If I say what I mean, mean what I say and don't say it mean, I stop and no longer JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. I was the woman with 1000 words, excuses, reasons and justifications for everything I said and did and it was exhausting for me and annoyed them to no end. For me, fewer words, excuses, reasons, etc. have brought about peace much sooner.
It's hard to sit still when someone is pushing your buttons. Yet, I have done this and been able to calmly say, "Are you done now?" and then not say a word. When we change, they must change as arguing, debating, etc. alone is not fun - even for those affected by this disease.
I statements work very well for me. I am doing what I believe is best. I respect that you have a different opinion. I will drive home. I will drive myself. It was suggested that I stop asking questions and instead formulate my plan for me and then state that. I use this even for simple things like dinner - I am cooking hamburgers tonight, and they will be ready at x:xx.
My son was recently released from jail. Believe it or not, the jail gave him back prescription pills that were in his pocket when he was picked up. He had no bottle, no script - loose pills floating around in there....and they returned him. After 3 weeks in jail and full detox, he popped pills that first night.
The next morning, he was nodding off at the counter. He was slurring his words and I knew, without asking, that he was under the influence. I asked one time, to give him an opportunity to share and he lied. I just stood there, considering what if anything I should say and just stated, I don't believe you. I left the room and prayed for the patience to not choke him and boot his butt right out of my house. Trust me when I say, the old me would have pushed, ranted, raved, and badgered him to the point of extreme anger on both sides.
I walked away and we both knew he was dishonest. Yet, I was given the grace and dignity to not engage in the moment and instead let him own his own state of affairs. A few hours later, he did share what happened, and was in tears - I had taken him to a meeting, he had selected a sponsor and he had an interview with an Oxford house (sober living) and yet the temptation of those pills were greater than him in that moment on that evening.
*Sigh* - his choice not mine. His future, not mine. I had to just listen and allow him/God to determine what would happen next. What this experience and each I've had since working the Al-Anon program - when I step out of the way, and allow another to experience their journey/choices, it fairs better for me. I wish they'd not returned the pills, I wish he'd not popped them in his mouth. I wish he'd called someone from the meeting instead. I wish for so many things - yet, I am truly powerless over what anyone else thinks, says, does, does not do. My best response sometimes is no response at all, beyond taking care of me.
(((Hugs))) - you deserve, as we all do, to have a safe, joyful life. I have to keep this in my mind always - yet my happiness can not be attained by beating down another. They too deserve their own path/journey and their own happiness (as they define it). Lean into recovery and allow the process to work for you!!
PosiesandPuppies said
May 7, 2017
Iamhere - I lOVE that acronym... JADE. Because I try to Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain all the time... even with my teen-aged son! I also like the use of the "I" statements. I have actually done that on a couple occasions, and now that I can look back on it, that alone simply took all the power from my AH!!! Ah, Ha moment!!!! Thank you!
I am so sorry to hear about your son. I can't imagine the pain, nor do I ever want to. May your son find his strength to lean on his sponsor.
It's funny, I seem to be stuck on Step 2, b/c I just can't believe my HP would put me through this again. I have indeed lost faith, so I have completed Step 1, but I just cannot "do" Step 2. I begin, and then I just end up crying and giving up. I don't even want to THINK that my HP is offering this up to me. So I have heard on here 'Lean into the program." I have tried to utilize the slogans, but for some reason many of them don't resonate with me.
"One day at a time?" I am angry that I even have to live my life that way.
"Let go and let God?" Yes I am learning to let go, but let God? How can I when I feel God has abandoned me?
"Practice the Pause" This is a great one, and I am trying hard with this, but it's not one that I feel can sustain me daily to keep me grounded.
"Act As If" Now this one I am beginning to embrace... b/c of the ESH shared here (thank you!). I am acting "As If" I am separated. I am acting "As If" my AH is stone cold crazy and I can't possibly have a reasonable conversation with him.
But this new one...
JADE... I think I can practice this every day. Why? Because I feel that if I just explain it a little better, people will see my point of view. By practicing JADE, I then am able to get it out of my head that anyone HAS to see my POV all the time, in every instance.
I am going to go chew on this some more... thank you, Iamhere!!!
Iamhere said
May 7, 2017
(((PnP))) - I love where we say, more will be revealed. I can relate to all that you share and recall thinking many of the slogans were silly or not applicable to me. In time, each has had a purpose as I've grown in recovery.
As far as Step 2, the top right has the Step Board. Hotrod (Betty) posts a new step every 2 weeks. You might get some insight into other's shares by doing some reading there....and you can join in at any time with the step you are working on.
I too loved JADE when I heard it. It made me almost stop in my tracks because every statement I made including some form of JADE. I felt that was 'polite' and 'necessary' to explain my thinking about every statement I made. Phew....................what a gift to realize I did not have to do that any longer!
Keep doing what you're doing. Literature helped me tons too when I first started....it kept my brain more focused on putting me first and using the tools, steps, program, etc. You are doing just fine where you are!
PosiesandPuppies said
May 7, 2017
(((Iamhere)))
Mattie said
May 8, 2017
Remember that whenever we want to make a change, the person involved will have a "Change back!" reaction. In the case of alcoholics, they desperately want everyone around them to pretend that their drinking has no effect. They want everyone to pretend as hard as they can, so they can keep denying it to themselves. So they start in with the "Change back!" really strongly. They try to control us by getting angry.
The good news about this is that all we have to do is not care if they get angry, and we are not controlled. That is assuming they are not prone to violence. If they're violent, then we need to figure out how to get away from them. But I'm assuming your A is not violent, as you didn't mention anything about that.
In my experience, after a while of trying the "Change back!", my A just gave up. He would try that denial and arguing too. "I'm not drunk! Why are you always so paranoid? What's wrong with you? You should get some help for that paranoia!"
What I would say is, "I have no idea whether or not you've been drinking. But when you have the same behaviors, that's enough for me. I can't be around those behaviors. It's too much for me. I just can't do it, I don't have the stamina. So I have to take the actions to protect myself when I see those behaviors. That's all there is to it." And I'd take the actions.
At first he fumed and ranted and accused and guilted and all the rest. After a couple of weeks he saw that nothing was going to make any difference, I was going to do what I was going to do. So then I'd say, "You're doing those behaviors again, I can't be around this," and he'd do a bit eye-rolling thing, but he wouldn't get angry or engage with me about it. So my experience is that it's a matter of showing them what the new reality is.
Eventually I showed him the reality that I wouldn't be around his drinking at all, and we separated. That is right for some people and not for others. But my practice in setting boundaries gave me more confidence that I could follow through with whatever I decided.
Jazzie18 said
May 8, 2017
I found that when my AH was drinking he was more angrier with himself than me but turned his anger on me. I found boundaries to be really hard to enforce at first. I did hear in the f2f meetings that it was pointless to put a boundary in place if you aren't ready to abide by them myself. I would tell my husband, if you are actively drinking than you need to leave only for him to lie to my face, and for me to feel very resentful because I knew he was lying and I didn't go through with the boundary. I finally reached a tipping point went I actually went through with my boundary and asked him to leave. Let me tell you he threw a temper tantrum fit for a 2 year old. It did show him that a) I was serious, and b) he had to deal with the fall out of his disease and drinking.
I think you leaving for the night to give you and your son some peace was great. One thing that helped me with my anxiety was having a backup plan in my head. I started to look for houses to rent if he didn't move out. I also had the option to live with my parents too so it was helpful to know what my options were.
Sending you positive thoughts.
PosiesandPuppies said
May 9, 2017
Mattie and Jazzie - so much good ESH here!!
Mattie, I really identified with your post... I think that this anger/pushback is exactly because I am not acting like he wants me to. Your quotes of your qualifier just had to make me smile, b/c they could've been spoken by my AH!!!
I am totally going to borrow the "behaviors" line... that way he can't tell me I have no proof of his alcohol use.... it will be a moot point, b/c it's more about the behaviors!
Jazzie, my AH lies to me all the time. Little things, big things, especially alcohol things. That is why I choose to leave when he is drinking... he just won't leave & calls me paranoid. So me leaving until he passes out is the best option for now.
I think the next step is to actually see about what I can do should I HAVE to leave. Then like you said, my anxiety level will probably lower. Thank you!
How do you stick to your boundaries if your AH won't abide by them?
I understand boundaries are for YOU, not the alcoholic. So here is my examples:
My AH is angry that I took my teen son and the dog to my mom & dad's house last night. I have told him in the past that I can't handle being in the house when he is drinking/angry etc. His answer to that is, "HOw do you even know I was drinking... you DON'T!"
When he exhibits addict behaviors and/or smells of alcohol, I really lean into detachment, but that makes him sad/angry/confused and it makes the household not fun to be in. Again, b/c he says that I don't know FOR SURE if he's been drinking, and he says he hasn't so it MUST be true!
I want to tell him it's because he smells of alcohol, is slurring is words, cannot follow a reasonable conversation, is stumbling on his feet... but i don't. I've learned that kind of exchange just gets him angrier. Plus, I have learned here that you don't engage in that.
Yesterday I actually told him that I couldn't take this anymore and I want to separate. I don't think that even registered he was so focused on his indignation of being "accused" of eating the chicken I made for dinner ( He did, & lied about it initially).
He forgets so much of what he says, or I say, it's frightening. Mostly b/c he denies that it ever has occurred and gets mad at me for pointing it out! I bet he doesn't even remember that I said I wanted to separate.
I can't believe he can live with so much righteous anger about me thinking he has been drinking when it is obvious he has been. Even if I stick to doing just me, and not even worry about him, he is still affecting my ability to utilize my boundaries. How do you go about changing that? Or better yet, how do I handle myself in these situations better so that I may utilize my boundaries?
Do you go to meetings? The reason I ask is its difficult to pick up bits and pieces of the program and put it all together without the full experience. It's all interdependent. What I mean is in order to understand boundaries I had to get self esteem first and believe that I deserved better behaviour. I also had to have more understanding of the disease in both him and me. It kind of all links I think to try and get snippets and make sense of it is difficult. If you want change then go for it as fully as you can. Meetings sponsor readings steps. Without the foundations it's very difficult.
-- Edited by el-cee on Saturday 6th of May 2017 07:49:01 AM
When things were particularly challenging, I ramped up my face to face meetings, read more in my AlAnon literature on the topics I was struggling with, more time meditating, and fellowship with program members. This approach never failed to bring me the peace, clarity, and strength to get through it and see where I could make adjustments to improve things going forward.
Hang in there, keep working the program, and keep coming back
DON'T
EVEN
THINK
ABOUT
CHANGING
HIM
and when I practiced that... when I stopped expecting HIM to change, I began to get a taste of the peace they were talking about. Detachment doesn't necessarily mean separation, it means acceptance of who and what they are. Everyone wants to be accepted as they are but when I resist... because I just can't get them to conform to my wishes... it creates ill will in the relationship, on top of the dis-ease.
I see you doing what I had been doing too... trying to fight a battle I could not win. but when I began to practice ACCEPTANCE that he really and truly is very very sick, and even insane... I began to let go of the thought that makes ME absolutely insane, the thought that an alcoholic addict SHOULD NOT ACT LIKE ONE.
That thought is insane and when I believe it, I am insane too. It's like insisting a paralytic person should walk.... !!!
Thankfully the al-anon tools steps restore my sanity. and when I actually saw others working and getting results from them, I was empowered to make them work for me too.
I hope to hear about your meetings and the messages your Higher Power is bringing to you there. when I suit up and show up, the teacher appears..... (God!)
(((hugs)))
p.s indeed, BOUNDARIES are about you and NOT a demand on others in hopes they will change. If your motive is to change him, it is a bad motive.... it assumes you have power. Boundaries are about self-care and protection and so you do not need him to agree or "register" with him, it only has to register with you. You may try stating it to him in a way that he cannot argue, you might just say, "I cannot be around you if I BELIEVE you are using." and then follow through with protecting your sanity regardless of how he feels about it. Your sponsor will help you understand these ideas.
Keeping the focus on myself and what's acceptable to me, I said "I don't know what was happening this afternoon, but you were falling asleep like you have in the past when you've had several drinks. I don't want to ride in the car with you tonight." I didn't accuse him of drinking. I said the actions and behaviors were reminiscent of times when he had. I can notice the effects without witnessing the actual consumption. It's like saying, "I can't be bleeding because you didn't see me cut myself." Sheesh.
If he argued or pushed for answers, I would say, "I'm sharing what I am experiencing." Let's talk about this later when I'm in a better place, not upset, had some time to think, etc.
I learned with practice not to fix everything for both of us or spout answers and solutions on command.
I've found so much wisdom on this site and in the program. I hope you will also. Hugs.
Sometimes it is hard to stick to your boundaries when those very boundaries make your AH angry.
Peace to you, Aline... you sound like you know parts of my life very well.
I've also been told that, "Yes", "No" are complete answers. If I say what I mean, mean what I say and don't say it mean, I stop and no longer JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. I was the woman with 1000 words, excuses, reasons and justifications for everything I said and did and it was exhausting for me and annoyed them to no end. For me, fewer words, excuses, reasons, etc. have brought about peace much sooner.
It's hard to sit still when someone is pushing your buttons. Yet, I have done this and been able to calmly say, "Are you done now?" and then not say a word. When we change, they must change as arguing, debating, etc. alone is not fun - even for those affected by this disease.
I statements work very well for me. I am doing what I believe is best. I respect that you have a different opinion. I will drive home. I will drive myself. It was suggested that I stop asking questions and instead formulate my plan for me and then state that. I use this even for simple things like dinner - I am cooking hamburgers tonight, and they will be ready at x:xx.
My son was recently released from jail. Believe it or not, the jail gave him back prescription pills that were in his pocket when he was picked up. He had no bottle, no script - loose pills floating around in there....and they returned him. After 3 weeks in jail and full detox, he popped pills that first night.
The next morning, he was nodding off at the counter. He was slurring his words and I knew, without asking, that he was under the influence. I asked one time, to give him an opportunity to share and he lied. I just stood there, considering what if anything I should say and just stated, I don't believe you. I left the room and prayed for the patience to not choke him and boot his butt right out of my house. Trust me when I say, the old me would have pushed, ranted, raved, and badgered him to the point of extreme anger on both sides.
I walked away and we both knew he was dishonest. Yet, I was given the grace and dignity to not engage in the moment and instead let him own his own state of affairs. A few hours later, he did share what happened, and was in tears - I had taken him to a meeting, he had selected a sponsor and he had an interview with an Oxford house (sober living) and yet the temptation of those pills were greater than him in that moment on that evening.
*Sigh* - his choice not mine. His future, not mine. I had to just listen and allow him/God to determine what would happen next. What this experience and each I've had since working the Al-Anon program - when I step out of the way, and allow another to experience their journey/choices, it fairs better for me. I wish they'd not returned the pills, I wish he'd not popped them in his mouth. I wish he'd called someone from the meeting instead. I wish for so many things - yet, I am truly powerless over what anyone else thinks, says, does, does not do. My best response sometimes is no response at all, beyond taking care of me.
(((Hugs))) - you deserve, as we all do, to have a safe, joyful life. I have to keep this in my mind always - yet my happiness can not be attained by beating down another. They too deserve their own path/journey and their own happiness (as they define it). Lean into recovery and allow the process to work for you!!
I am so sorry to hear about your son. I can't imagine the pain, nor do I ever want to. May your son find his strength to lean on his sponsor.
It's funny, I seem to be stuck on Step 2, b/c I just can't believe my HP would put me through this again. I have indeed lost faith, so I have completed Step 1, but I just cannot "do" Step 2. I begin, and then I just end up crying and giving up. I don't even want to THINK that my HP is offering this up to me. So I have heard on here 'Lean into the program." I have tried to utilize the slogans, but for some reason many of them don't resonate with me.
"One day at a time?" I am angry that I even have to live my life that way.
"Let go and let God?" Yes I am learning to let go, but let God? How can I when I feel God has abandoned me?
"Practice the Pause" This is a great one, and I am trying hard with this, but it's not one that I feel can sustain me daily to keep me grounded.
"Act As If" Now this one I am beginning to embrace... b/c of the ESH shared here (thank you!). I am acting "As If" I am separated. I am acting "As If" my AH is stone cold crazy and I can't possibly have a reasonable conversation with him.
But this new one...
JADE... I think I can practice this every day. Why? Because I feel that if I just explain it a little better, people will see my point of view. By practicing JADE, I then am able to get it out of my head that anyone HAS to see my POV all the time, in every instance.
I am going to go chew on this some more... thank you, Iamhere!!!
As far as Step 2, the top right has the Step Board. Hotrod (Betty) posts a new step every 2 weeks. You might get some insight into other's shares by doing some reading there....and you can join in at any time with the step you are working on.
I too loved JADE when I heard it. It made me almost stop in my tracks because every statement I made including some form of JADE. I felt that was 'polite' and 'necessary' to explain my thinking about every statement I made. Phew....................what a gift to realize I did not have to do that any longer!
Keep doing what you're doing. Literature helped me tons too when I first started....it kept my brain more focused on putting me first and using the tools, steps, program, etc. You are doing just fine where you are!
Remember that whenever we want to make a change, the person involved will have a "Change back!" reaction. In the case of alcoholics, they desperately want everyone around them to pretend that their drinking has no effect. They want everyone to pretend as hard as they can, so they can keep denying it to themselves. So they start in with the "Change back!" really strongly. They try to control us by getting angry.
The good news about this is that all we have to do is not care if they get angry, and we are not controlled. That is assuming they are not prone to violence. If they're violent, then we need to figure out how to get away from them. But I'm assuming your A is not violent, as you didn't mention anything about that.
In my experience, after a while of trying the "Change back!", my A just gave up. He would try that denial and arguing too. "I'm not drunk! Why are you always so paranoid? What's wrong with you? You should get some help for that paranoia!"
What I would say is, "I have no idea whether or not you've been drinking. But when you have the same behaviors, that's enough for me. I can't be around those behaviors. It's too much for me. I just can't do it, I don't have the stamina. So I have to take the actions to protect myself when I see those behaviors. That's all there is to it." And I'd take the actions.
At first he fumed and ranted and accused and guilted and all the rest. After a couple of weeks he saw that nothing was going to make any difference, I was going to do what I was going to do. So then I'd say, "You're doing those behaviors again, I can't be around this," and he'd do a bit eye-rolling thing, but he wouldn't get angry or engage with me about it. So my experience is that it's a matter of showing them what the new reality is.
Eventually I showed him the reality that I wouldn't be around his drinking at all, and we separated. That is right for some people and not for others. But my practice in setting boundaries gave me more confidence that I could follow through with whatever I decided.
I think you leaving for the night to give you and your son some peace was great. One thing that helped me with my anxiety was having a backup plan in my head. I started to look for houses to rent if he didn't move out. I also had the option to live with my parents too so it was helpful to know what my options were.
Sending you positive thoughts.
Mattie, I really identified with your post... I think that this anger/pushback is exactly because I am not acting like he wants me to. Your quotes of your qualifier just had to make me smile, b/c they could've been spoken by my AH!!!
I am totally going to borrow the "behaviors" line... that way he can't tell me I have no proof of his alcohol use.... it will be a moot point, b/c it's more about the behaviors!
Jazzie, my AH lies to me all the time. Little things, big things, especially alcohol things. That is why I choose to leave when he is drinking... he just won't leave & calls me paranoid. So me leaving until he passes out is the best option for now.
I think the next step is to actually see about what I can do should I HAVE to leave. Then like you said, my anxiety level will probably lower. Thank you!