Sorry if this is long. I am sitting here alone another night. I posted last week, but my AH and I had a particularly bad week last night, he was drinking every night and didn't come home after work a few times and then Friday he stayed out until 6:30 in the morning doing god knows what. He missed a family outing we planned with my brother, SIL and nephew because he was asleep all day (I still went with my daughter).
Later on Sunday my daughter got into some nail polish in my desk drawer - obviously not good but she was fine (she spilled it on herself) but he really used it to come after me "see we both make mistakes" - I was really not in the mood to be critized by him and he felt I wasn't sufficiently apologetic to him which led to him stonewalling/lashing out at me for the next few days.
One of the things he said to me was "this is why I don't come home" - about my "pridefulness and coldness" - I just feel browbeaten - he says I am so cold and removed. I am not a cold person and I forgive and forgive and move on all the time and I am not as "in love" with him as I once was I am still kind and open hearted. I know it's a way for him to blame me for his drinking. Then he goes back to the old script about how we both need to try harder.
I have seen other stories where a's are accuse people around them of coldness. What do you do about it? I don't want to defend myself and get involved with justifying myself. I guess I just let it go? It's so hard because part of me still sees the normal marriage underneath the drinking problems and I want to try to meet his needs better - but it doesn't seem possible these days without sacrificing myself.
Thanks for listening.
hotrod said
Apr 5, 2017
Hi Vicki At some point I believe that I detached with an ax or indifference (meaning the only way I could detach from my hubby was to ignore him, focus completely on myself and live my life taking care of myself with no thought of him ) Then with more time in program and working the steps I learned to" detach with love" -- there was a difference. I still kept the focus on myself, determined to treat everyone with courtesy and respect, placed these principles above personalities and stopped reacting and learned to respond in a constructive manner. Meetings helped so did the serenity prayer
I must note it is extremely difficult to feel loving to someone who stays out all night and is verbally abusive. The best I could do was to learn to validate myself and be courteous
Keep coming back
Iamhere said
Apr 6, 2017
(((Vicki))) - I too detached with indifference and through ignoring/silence at times. My sponsor suggested that detaching with Love was the goal, not the rules. It was new for me and uncomfortable for me and my self-esteem was so low that I felt mean, cold, distant as I began to practice this. My brain suggested my old way felt better (ego) and my sponsor suggested my new way (detaching) was healthier and when I got more comfortable in my skin, I realized it had nothing to do with them, their actions, their words, etc. It had everything to do with healing my soul/heart/mind.
Today, when I am detaching and meet resistance, I use the serenity prayer. A real life example - my son is in jail. He's in jail because of his decisions and this disease. He's been to treatment, jail, prison, homeless and more before. He has been exposed to the same set of tools all others in/out of recovery have to use/not use.
I made it very clear that if he went to jail, I would not bail him out - BTDT - Been There, Done That. I made it very clear that the bank of family was closed for all reasons. He called more than 30+ times yesterday trying to get me to bail him out. I held firm and he badgered his brother and his father as well. I knew I was powerless over their choices, but I spoke my boundary loud and clear to them both, and they also refused to bail him out.
He's detoxing, he's a mess and he has no home to go to....it truly makes no sense to get him out of jail as we don't know what to do with him. He's unemployed, unemployable and in trouble - he's right where he belongs.
This sounds/seems very cold to write/read in black/white. However, my experience is each time we've helped, bailed him out, got his restarted with a 'new beginning', it's fizzled out and we land right here again. I no longer want to be a part of the insanity for any reason at any time. I am sad and I am full of fear, but that's better than being insane, sad and full of fear.
Self-care, in any form, to me is the best thing we can do for ourselves to maintain/grow our sanity. I am reminded each day right now that what others think of me is not my business. (((Hugs))) - as always - take what you like and leave the rest.
ForwardMotion said
Apr 6, 2017
What stood out to me most in this was that you clearly stated that you know you are not a cold person. I want to just reach out and tell you to hold on to that knowledge. Our side of this disease is that in loving our A's, we give them pieces of ourselves to secure and keep safe as most do in relationships. But....and it's a big one, when this disease is manifesting, we have to take those pieces back and put them in safer hands, our own hands.
I just want to encourage you to know your truth and live it daily. We are all multi-faceted. We are all striving (and struggling) to be both soft and strong, loving and leading by example.
milkwood said
Apr 6, 2017
(((((Vicki)))))
You don't sound cold at all, and it feels loving to me that you can still see things that remind you of the days when your marriage felt more equal and shared.
I found that things got better for me when I tried to meet my own needs better and stayed mindful of the (sad) reality that I could not ask my husband to meet those needs since he was having to deal with the mind-mess of his own disease. I too felt lonely so I reached out and spent more time with friends. When I was living in a beautiful but isolated place I joined an on-line course and that connected me with other people as well.
I like what ForwardMotion wrote about bringing our vulnerabilities back to safe hands - our own and also placing them gently in the hands of our higher power, whatever it is for you that feels safe and protective.
That feeling of not being in love as much is familiar to me and it hurt me to think of it - I thought that it was a failing of mine. However, I found that it undermined my self esteem to love the disease when that was what I was mostly getting, perhaps that is similar to your description of sacrificing yourself? So I had to keep my distance and trust that my husband and his higher power would come out well in the end. I told myself that I would like to be as healthy as possible when things started to get better!
Sometimes, when I was feeling hurt, I imagined a beautiful protective shield around me. I imagined it in glinting gold and peppered it with beautiful jewels. When things felt tough I place that shield between me and anything that was going on that felt like it might hurt my soul. I hope this doesn't sound too weird, but for some reason it worked for me. I think it felt as if I was taking better care of myself.
VickiR said
Apr 6, 2017
Thanks for the responses everyone. It is hard to deal with two marriages - the one to my husband and to the alcoholic - that's how it feels sometimes. I get so tired of hearing about fresh starts.
It's also difficult because my mum used to call me callous all the time as a kid, when she was an active alcoholic. I'm not a yelling, emotive person when I'm upset, I do shut down a bit and pull away (when I'm happy I'm pretty outgoing and warm) but it feels so miserable to have another relationship in life criticizing me for the same things.
-- Edited by VickiR on Thursday 6th of April 2017 12:48:16 PM
SerenityRUS said
Apr 6, 2017
Hugs Vicki .. sometimes parents say really stupid things not because of the kiddo however because of their own issues. My mom is and was infamous among my limited friends for doing and saying things like that .. she wasn't isn't an alcoholic. I honestly believe she has some kind of mental issues that she's never dealt with, different subject .. just saying you aren't alone and I have constantly been called cold, unfeeling, I'm complicated .. LOL .. fill in the blank. Hang tight to your truth and find out how to validate yourself it makes a world of difference. BTW my marriage failures (I have two .. LOL) I was blamed by her for those as well my first was physically abusive and an addict the second thankfully I got out before it got really crazy and it was crazy enough. I had a part in both .. no it wasn't all my fault.
:)
2HP said
Apr 7, 2017
Him calling you "cold" is exactly how my former AH would manipulate me too, ever an expert at turning the tables, making me the impossible one.
You are not crazy, dear one. Who wouldn't pull away from a husband not coming home to his family with such lame excuses? It happened to me to. and it made me feel crazy that I could not simply do as he asked ... simply understand him and his selfish, self-absorbed, self-pitying stories. it was meant to be all about HIM.
I sometimes wonder if DETACH WITH ACCEPTANCE would have been an easier concept for me to grasp. A way of saying, "I accept you must live your life the way you are living it and I now release you... and I now give myself permission to move on and live life in the way I must" ... having respect and dignity for both views, simply disagreeing on how life should look. very similar to our slogan LIVE AND LET LIVE.
In reading your post, I could recall my sponsor giving me permission to detach from my husband by simply sleeping in another room so I could finally get some sleep and have some peace. I can still remember how wonderful that felt, detaching from that awful energy to the energy of love and care for myself in another space. No longer denying and pretending, I marched angrily upstairs to the guest room and slammed the door. we are not saints. Detaching with LOVE was a result of progress and years in recovery and I am grateful my sponsor allowed me to be right where I was in recovery...
My recovery only took off from a place of absolute honesty. and seeing what I saw in ME (the suffering) and compassionately being there for myself... was practicing something new as I was never there for myself in the past, always twisting myself into a pretzel to be there for others. I thought others were supposed to come first but that is not what al-anon taught me. I didnt know I was being a self-sacrificing martyr which is what I learned much later, I thought I was just being a good person.
So, attachment to Higher Power is what makes detachment work for me. Loving God more than anything, that is my goal.
I can no longer cry out to God to "Do something".... "Please take care of me".... while I continue to put myself in situations that hurt me over and over and over again. God can't do anything if I don't cooperate.
So I like your question, do I just let it go? I would say, yes. let your fear of him and your expectations of him go while you take good care of yourself. What is the most compassionate, most nurturing thing you can do for your mind, body and spirit right now?
I would do that. And make it a glorious day ((hugs))
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 7th of April 2017 09:56:21 AM
KT2015 said
Apr 10, 2017
wow 2HP your post brought tears to my eyes. I can so relate to your post.
VickiR-- my AH behaves in a similar manner. After at least a year in the program I realized that I was trying to win a game that was rigged to lose. Like one of those games at the fair. No matter what I do my AH will want to blame me for his bad behavior. That is a big part of the disease. So for me I stopped playing the game. I stopped trying to win, trying to please and started focusing on myself and what I needed.
I like the suggestion 2HP made about doing the most compassionate, most nurturing thing you can do for your mind, body and spirit right now. Wishing you all the best.
Bo said
Apr 12, 2017
I don't know how long you've been in Al-Anon, going to meetings, etc. -- however, I think a good place for you to start, long-term solution oriented, is ACCEPTANCE. While intellectually you understand there is nothing you can do about his drinking, his choices, him at all -- the practical application of that intellect is an obstacle. You also say part of you "sees" the normal marriage underneath the drinking problems, and you want to try and meet his needs better...OK...not to be blunt or cold...but how has that been working for you? He was drinking every night and didn't come home after work a few times, and then stayed out until 630am (doing God knows what). OK, so, if you were perfect, did everything he wanted, met all of his needs, did everything perfectly...do you think he would stop drinking? Do you think he would come home every night? While these are rhetorical questions, they should allow you to think...and understand that no matter what you do...there is nothing you can do about his drinking. This, none of this is your fault. It doesn't matter what he says. Acceptance will allow you to perhaps not feel you are cold -- independent of what he says.
Short-term, talk to your sponsor. This is not a normal, healthy marriage. Your denial is making you see it and feel it is there. You cannot fix him, control him, meet his needs better, or help him. He will only stop drinking if and when he wants to. Period. Stop buying into his manipulation and blame...saying that you are cold, removed, and so on. It doesn't matter...he will keep blaming you. He has to. That is his sickness. Act as if. Let it go and force yourself to be more "friendly" and not as cold...until you start to understand, believe, embrace, that this is not your fault...truly, and through all of you...because it is not. Do it until you need to detach, and do so with compassion. I don't want to get into this right now. I am sorry you feel that way. I understand what you are saying and I don't want this to escalate right now. Let me think about this and we'll talk later. All of those statements are possible ways to diffuse and not engage. Detachment is not punishment for him...it is a tool for you. Think about this...he stays out and doesn't come home as his way of detaching...and you do what you do to detach. Right? Not really true or my point, but perhaps that connection makes sense for you.
I was accused of -- being cold, withdrawn, detached, not caring, bailing, giving up, abandoning, not loving, and so much more. Sure, early on I believed it. Early on there was a conflict -- I knew it wasn't my fault, but I felt I was doing those things. I could never be enough -- not friendly enough, communicative enough, there enough, and so on. I was working the program, doing what was best and healthy for me, but I was being blamed. Part of what she said to me was true -- that I was detached. Because I was. She didn't like that. Well, if the alcoholic is mad at you, upset with you...then you are probably doing something right. Sounds like a joke but it is not. When you people please an alcoholic...the person you are trying to please...will never be pleased enough. It's never enough. Focus on you and do the work. You will get better. All the best.
VickiR said
Apr 12, 2017
I just wanted to say thank you for the thoughtful responses, they are really helpful, especially during the more difficult moments.
Lee51 said
Apr 13, 2017
I'm brand new here and just attended my first two group meetings this week. Prior to attending meetings, I had been reading a lot of the literature on my own, trying to figure out a way to cope with my AH's progressive disease and my response to it. I know I have a lot to learn about myself and about alcoholism. I can tell you, though, that I know first hand about being blamed for being cold. The exact words are "cold, sanctimonious, and self-righteous." I know because I've been thrashed with them for years. Nothing I say or do can stop those words. My AH uses them because he knows they hurt. He hurts and wants me to hurt, too. I guess misery does love company. Maybe part of it is he feels guilty because he knows I do care about him. In the past I have tried to calm him down, but his behavior would just escalate until he had enough to drink that he fell asleep/passed out. Like I said, I've only been to two meetings, but I already feel stronger knowing I am not alone, there are choices, and I do have a say in where I draw a line. I've decided that next time my husband starts the verbal attacks I will not subject myself to it. I have no family nearby and have been isolated from real friends for a long time. But I'm keeping gas in my car, a few dollars and a book in my purse, and will spend whatever time I have to in the parking lot at the mall or WalMart before I go home. I know I am naive in hoping that my absence will give him pause to think about his actions and prompt him to getting help. But that's MY hope, not his. I'm to the point I'm feeling he is just going to have to figure it out for himself like I am trying to do for myself. I know it has to be more difficult with a child involved and hope you can figure out a plan to help yourself and your daughter. Peace.
SerenityRUS said
Apr 13, 2017
Hugs Lee,
So glad you are attending meetings .. you know when I stepped back and listened to myself speak to my XAH .. one thing that did strike me is .. he was right. I was cold, sanctimonious and self righteous because I was so damn angry.
Alanon helped me see the difference in forcing my will and wants on others vs allowing them the dignity and grace to find their own way to their own answers. It takes time and when I'm ready to look at my part in my failed marriage .. do I own more than my share .. no .. I own my part I can move forward in a positive way.
Keep coming back it gets better and easier to find out what works and doesn't work ... living life on lives terms is so much better than trying to play God to other's in terms of what works and doesn't work for them.
Hi Vicki At some point I believe that I detached with an ax or indifference (meaning the only way I could detach from my hubby was to ignore him, focus completely on myself and live my life taking care of myself with no thought of him ) Then with more time in program and working the steps I learned to" detach with love" -- there was a difference. I still kept the focus on myself, determined to treat everyone with courtesy and respect, placed these principles above personalities and stopped reacting and learned to respond in a constructive manner. Meetings helped so did the serenity prayer
I must note it is extremely difficult to feel loving to someone who stays out all night and is verbally abusive. The best I could do was to learn to validate myself and be courteous
Keep coming back
Today, when I am detaching and meet resistance, I use the serenity prayer. A real life example - my son is in jail. He's in jail because of his decisions and this disease. He's been to treatment, jail, prison, homeless and more before. He has been exposed to the same set of tools all others in/out of recovery have to use/not use.
I made it very clear that if he went to jail, I would not bail him out - BTDT - Been There, Done That. I made it very clear that the bank of family was closed for all reasons. He called more than 30+ times yesterday trying to get me to bail him out. I held firm and he badgered his brother and his father as well. I knew I was powerless over their choices, but I spoke my boundary loud and clear to them both, and they also refused to bail him out.
He's detoxing, he's a mess and he has no home to go to....it truly makes no sense to get him out of jail as we don't know what to do with him. He's unemployed, unemployable and in trouble - he's right where he belongs.
This sounds/seems very cold to write/read in black/white. However, my experience is each time we've helped, bailed him out, got his restarted with a 'new beginning', it's fizzled out and we land right here again. I no longer want to be a part of the insanity for any reason at any time. I am sad and I am full of fear, but that's better than being insane, sad and full of fear.
Self-care, in any form, to me is the best thing we can do for ourselves to maintain/grow our sanity. I am reminded each day right now that what others think of me is not my business. (((Hugs))) - as always - take what you like and leave the rest.
I just want to encourage you to know your truth and live it daily. We are all multi-faceted. We are all striving (and struggling) to be both soft and strong, loving and leading by example.
You don't sound cold at all, and it feels loving to me that you can still see things that remind you of the days when your marriage felt more equal and shared.
I found that things got better for me when I tried to meet my own needs better and stayed mindful of the (sad) reality that I could not ask my husband to meet those needs since he was having to deal with the mind-mess of his own disease. I too felt lonely so I reached out and spent more time with friends. When I was living in a beautiful but isolated place I joined an on-line course and that connected me with other people as well.
I like what ForwardMotion wrote about bringing our vulnerabilities back to safe hands - our own and also placing them gently in the hands of our higher power, whatever it is for you that feels safe and protective.
That feeling of not being in love as much is familiar to me and it hurt me to think of it - I thought that it was a failing of mine. However, I found that it undermined my self esteem to love the disease when that was what I was mostly getting, perhaps that is similar to your description of sacrificing yourself? So I had to keep my distance and trust that my husband and his higher power would come out well in the end. I told myself that I would like to be as healthy as possible when things started to get better!
Sometimes, when I was feeling hurt, I imagined a beautiful protective shield around me. I imagined it in glinting gold and peppered it with beautiful jewels. When things felt tough I place that shield between me and anything that was going on that felt like it might hurt my soul. I hope this doesn't sound too weird, but for some reason it worked for me. I think it felt as if I was taking better care of myself.
Thanks for the responses everyone. It is hard to deal with two marriages - the one to my husband and to the alcoholic - that's how it feels sometimes. I get so tired of hearing about fresh starts.
It's also difficult because my mum used to call me callous all the time as a kid, when she was an active alcoholic. I'm not a yelling, emotive person when I'm upset, I do shut down a bit and pull away (when I'm happy I'm pretty outgoing and warm) but it feels so miserable to have another relationship in life criticizing me for the same things.
-- Edited by VickiR on Thursday 6th of April 2017 12:48:16 PM
:)
Him calling you "cold" is exactly how my former AH would manipulate me too, ever an expert at turning the tables, making me the impossible one.
You are not crazy, dear one. Who wouldn't pull away from a husband not coming home to his family with such lame excuses? It happened to me to. and it made me feel crazy that I could not simply do as he asked ... simply understand him and his selfish, self-absorbed, self-pitying stories. it was meant to be all about HIM.
I sometimes wonder if DETACH WITH ACCEPTANCE would have been an easier concept for me to grasp. A way of saying, "I accept you must live your life the way you are living it and I now release you... and I now give myself permission to move on and live life in the way I must" ... having respect and dignity for both views, simply disagreeing on how life should look. very similar to our slogan LIVE AND LET LIVE.
In reading your post, I could recall my sponsor giving me permission to detach from my husband by simply sleeping in another room so I could finally get some sleep and have some peace. I can still remember how wonderful that felt, detaching from that awful energy to the energy of love and care for myself in another space. No longer denying and pretending, I marched angrily upstairs to the guest room and slammed the door. we are not saints. Detaching with LOVE was a result of progress and years in recovery and I am grateful my sponsor allowed me to be right where I was in recovery...
My recovery only took off from a place of absolute honesty. and seeing what I saw in ME (the suffering) and compassionately being there for myself... was practicing something new as I was never there for myself in the past, always twisting myself into a pretzel to be there for others. I thought others were supposed to come first but that is not what al-anon taught me. I didnt know I was being a self-sacrificing martyr which is what I learned much later, I thought I was just being a good person.
So, attachment to Higher Power is what makes detachment work for me. Loving God more than anything, that is my goal.
I can no longer cry out to God to "Do something".... "Please take care of me".... while I continue to put myself in situations that hurt me over and over and over again. God can't do anything if I don't cooperate.
So I like your question, do I just let it go? I would say, yes. let your fear of him and your expectations of him go while you take good care of yourself. What is the most compassionate, most nurturing thing you can do for your mind, body and spirit right now?
I would do that. And make it a glorious day ((hugs))
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 7th of April 2017 09:56:21 AM
VickiR-- my AH behaves in a similar manner. After at least a year in the program I realized that I was trying to win a game that was rigged to lose. Like one of those games at the fair. No matter what I do my AH will want to blame me for his bad behavior. That is a big part of the disease. So for me I stopped playing the game. I stopped trying to win, trying to please and started focusing on myself and what I needed.
I like the suggestion 2HP made about doing the most compassionate, most nurturing thing you can do for your mind, body and spirit right now. Wishing you all the best.
I don't know how long you've been in Al-Anon, going to meetings, etc. -- however, I think a good place for you to start, long-term solution oriented, is ACCEPTANCE. While intellectually you understand there is nothing you can do about his drinking, his choices, him at all -- the practical application of that intellect is an obstacle. You also say part of you "sees" the normal marriage underneath the drinking problems, and you want to try and meet his needs better...OK...not to be blunt or cold...but how has that been working for you? He was drinking every night and didn't come home after work a few times, and then stayed out until 630am (doing God knows what). OK, so, if you were perfect, did everything he wanted, met all of his needs, did everything perfectly...do you think he would stop drinking? Do you think he would come home every night? While these are rhetorical questions, they should allow you to think...and understand that no matter what you do...there is nothing you can do about his drinking. This, none of this is your fault. It doesn't matter what he says. Acceptance will allow you to perhaps not feel you are cold -- independent of what he says.
Short-term, talk to your sponsor. This is not a normal, healthy marriage. Your denial is making you see it and feel it is there. You cannot fix him, control him, meet his needs better, or help him. He will only stop drinking if and when he wants to. Period. Stop buying into his manipulation and blame...saying that you are cold, removed, and so on. It doesn't matter...he will keep blaming you. He has to. That is his sickness. Act as if. Let it go and force yourself to be more "friendly" and not as cold...until you start to understand, believe, embrace, that this is not your fault...truly, and through all of you...because it is not. Do it until you need to detach, and do so with compassion. I don't want to get into this right now. I am sorry you feel that way. I understand what you are saying and I don't want this to escalate right now. Let me think about this and we'll talk later. All of those statements are possible ways to diffuse and not engage. Detachment is not punishment for him...it is a tool for you. Think about this...he stays out and doesn't come home as his way of detaching...and you do what you do to detach. Right? Not really true or my point, but perhaps that connection makes sense for you.
I was accused of -- being cold, withdrawn, detached, not caring, bailing, giving up, abandoning, not loving, and so much more. Sure, early on I believed it. Early on there was a conflict -- I knew it wasn't my fault, but I felt I was doing those things. I could never be enough -- not friendly enough, communicative enough, there enough, and so on. I was working the program, doing what was best and healthy for me, but I was being blamed. Part of what she said to me was true -- that I was detached. Because I was. She didn't like that. Well, if the alcoholic is mad at you, upset with you...then you are probably doing something right. Sounds like a joke but it is not. When you people please an alcoholic...the person you are trying to please...will never be pleased enough. It's never enough. Focus on you and do the work. You will get better. All the best.
I'm brand new here and just attended my first two group meetings this week. Prior to attending meetings, I had been reading a lot of the literature on my own, trying to figure out a way to cope with my AH's progressive disease and my response to it. I know I have a lot to learn about myself and about alcoholism. I can tell you, though, that I know first hand about being blamed for being cold. The exact words are "cold, sanctimonious, and self-righteous." I know because I've been thrashed with them for years. Nothing I say or do can stop those words. My AH uses them because he knows they hurt. He hurts and wants me to hurt, too. I guess misery does love company. Maybe part of it is he feels guilty because he knows I do care about him. In the past I have tried to calm him down, but his behavior would just escalate until he had enough to drink that he fell asleep/passed out. Like I said, I've only been to two meetings, but I already feel stronger knowing I am not alone, there are choices, and I do have a say in where I draw a line. I've decided that next time my husband starts the verbal attacks I will not subject myself to it. I have no family nearby and have been isolated from real friends for a long time. But I'm keeping gas in my car, a few dollars and a book in my purse, and will spend whatever time I have to in the parking lot at the mall or WalMart before I go home. I know I am naive in hoping that my absence will give him pause to think about his actions and prompt him to getting help. But that's MY hope, not his. I'm to the point I'm feeling he is just going to have to figure it out for himself like I am trying to do for myself. I know it has to be more difficult with a child involved and hope you can figure out a plan to help yourself and your daughter. Peace.
So glad you are attending meetings .. you know when I stepped back and listened to myself speak to my XAH .. one thing that did strike me is .. he was right. I was cold, sanctimonious and self righteous because I was so damn angry.
Alanon helped me see the difference in forcing my will and wants on others vs allowing them the dignity and grace to find their own way to their own answers. It takes time and when I'm ready to look at my part in my failed marriage .. do I own more than my share .. no .. I own my part I can move forward in a positive way.
Keep coming back it gets better and easier to find out what works and doesn't work ... living life on lives terms is so much better than trying to play God to other's in terms of what works and doesn't work for them.
Big hugs :)