Just to preface, I'm new here, know little about Al-Anon (except what I've read on the web recently), and have never dealt with an A before.
My brother-in-law is an alcoholic and has been in and out of rehab for the past few years. He lives 1500 miles away, with a fiancee who is at her wit's end and is about to leave him, I fear. He has no other family except for his brother (my husband), myself, and a cousin who also lives far away.
A-in-law has drained his finances paying for rehab (and for vodka when he's in between rehabs), as well as for a number of boondoggles over the years. He's at the point where he's going to lose his housing in the next month or so due to his inability to work. His fiancee works but can't support them both.
Hubby wants to pay to help A get into detox for the fourth time (to the tune of $11k out-of-pocket since A let his insurance lapse). A is willing, but not enthusiastic. I want to help, but this is a lot of money and I'm afraid it's going straight down the drain if A isn't committed.
Another complicating factor is that A-in-law has a brain injury from a fall years ago that we think makes impulse control difficult. He's also got depression which is made worse by the 2-3 pints of vodka/day. He's lied to all of our faces about the drinking, has gotten DUIs, won't do little things to help himself even when his fiancee begs -- all the typical stuff for active As. He has also talked about suicide, and hubby is afraid he'll do it unless someone steps in. (We've had to call the police a couple of times, etc.)
I'm not against helping him, if he'll accept it, but I also want to draw a line so as not to get sucked into the financial hole that I know (from reading stories here) that alcoholism can suck people into. I also don't want to start a pattern of A-in-law looking to us for money. Maybe it would be different if A was proactively seeking detox and rehab -- then I'd have some hope that it would work. But right now he's showing little interest in it, even though he seems willing.
Hubby thinks I'm being too hard. He wants to give A another chance with detox, and then hopefully get him into a free/low-cost rehab that A can afford. He fears for A's life, and frankly I do too.
-MB11
-- Edited by makebelieve11 on Tuesday 21st of March 2017 05:52:50 PM
hotrod said
Mar 21, 2017
Hi make-believe welcome . Alcoholism is a dreadful progressive, chronic disease over which we are powerless. I can understand the feelings that you expressed and also the dilemma of what action to take in order to help . As I understand it, Detoxing is considered a medical condition for which someone cannot be refused admission to hospital, even if they cannot pay.
I would check with the hospital in his location to determine their admission policy before making any definite decisions.Your husband's intention of looking for a low-cost rehab afterwards is wise and I'm sure they can point you in the right direction
There are no guarantees with this disease and as you have experienced relapse is often experienced. I suggest that both you and your husband search out Al-Anon face-to-face meetings in your community and attend. It is at Al-Anon meetings that I learned how to focus on myself, draw appropriate boundaries and still have compassion and empathy for the alcoholic. Face-to-face meetings are held in most communities and the hotline numbers found in the white pages.
Please keep coming back here there is hope and help
Jerry F said
Mar 22, 2017
Betty has good suggestions from her experiences and from my experiences let me add that alcoholism is incurable, it can only be arrested by total abstinence. Your brother in law must be committed to sobriety or he dies with his insanity. I suggest you and your husband learn as much about this disease as your are able because it is a fatal disease. I would also suggest to you both to attend a couple open AA meetings and sit and listen to the fellowship speak of their alcoholic journeys. I am also alcoholic and a long time member of AA knowing on a daily basis that I need the fellowship and a power much more greater than myself to stay sober and alive.
You might also try to contact a central office for AA where your brother in law is living and see if some of the membership will check in on him....they refer to that as a 12th step and sometimes it works wonders. Keep coming back here to read up on the ESH that the MIP family brings. ((((hugs))))
Mattie said
Mar 22, 2017
Welcome, and I'm glad you have found us.
What I wish someone had told me before I began this journey is that only 15-25% of those who enter a formal program of recovery achieve longterm sobriety. That's how powerful addiction is. I had thought it was just a matter of sort of flipping a switch and poof, it would all be taken care of. You have experience that that's not so.
So the odds are that the $11,000 will not actually mean that your brother-in-law becomes sober this time through. Of course, he may. There are so many alcoholics that even 15-25% means thousands and thousands of people. However, they generally do it on their own timeline, which other people are powerless to influence.
So the way I see it, the $11,000 would be to give yourselves the feeling that you really did try everything you could. Sometimes that feeling is very important. It's good to understand how powerful the addiction is before deciding, though. You and your husband could find a lot of information and support at a face-to-face meeting.
The other thing to remember is that if your brother-in-law decided that he wanted sobriety, he could walk in through the doors of AA multiple times a day, almost anywhere in the English-speaking world. If he doesn't like AA, which some feel, there are other similar formal programs he could try. (Trying to go it alone is almost certainly not an option - if that were going to work, it would have worked already.) What I am getting at is that it's not this expensive rehab or nothing. There are free opportunities for sobriety every single day.
I hope you'll find a face-to-face meeting, and take good care of yourself. No one should have to handle this without support.
Mike B said
Mar 22, 2017
Hi MB11! This statement: "A is willing, but not enthusiastic" would make me think through any drastic decisions. As others have said, until the A is ready there's no long lasting recovery. Maybe he needs to drag on the bottom for a bit in order to feel the pain and desperation to change? That's what it took for me. As for you I would suggest you Pray for him then turn him over to his Higher Power.
Iamhere said
Mar 22, 2017
Welcome MB11 - glad you found us and glad that you shared...As stated by those above me, the disease is progressive and is never cured, but arrested through treatment and abstinence. My personal experience - unless one is committed to recovery, no amount of support or treatment matters. I am a double winner, and went to treatment almost 30 years ago. I never relapsed and have remained sober since.
However, my qualifiers are all still active in the disease and we've explored treatment for substance abuse and mental health more than 12 times. So - recovery is a personal journey and there are no guarantees when one will get sober if ever. It's a progressive, powerful, baffling disease and we as loved ones, family or friends are also affected more than we know at times.
I too can suggest attending Al-Anon meetings to get some more ESH (Experience, Strength & Hope). It is in the rooms of al-anon that I found support like no other and where I learned that nothing I do, say, try, suggest, mandate, etc. will change the experience of another person. I had developed warped thinking and unhealthy 'help habits' that are considered enabling and learned in al-anon to put me first and to set up boundaries and how to detach.
I wish you all well - there is hope and help in Al-Anon - please keep coming back!
makebelieve11 said
Mar 22, 2017
Thanks so much for all the replies.
Hotrod / Jerry - we are looking into a nonmedical detox that is free (for A, since he has no income) but would admit him to the hospital upon any signs of medical distress. We may either do that or have him admit himself first and then go to the detox/rehab facility after the hospital releases him. Thanks for the suggestion to look up local Al-Anon meetings. I think they might benefit hubby especially. He's taking all of this very hard. His and A's deceased mother was also an alcoholic and this is dredging up unpleasant memories and resentments, too.
Mattie - I think that's exactly what that money means to hubby - he wants the feeling that he at least tried. I do believe we've found some lower-cost alternatives at this point. I know it's really really hard to break an alcohol addiction. This would be A's fourth time in rehab, but he's been getting steadily worse ever since his first stint in rehab. He's at the worst he's ever been now.
Mike B - that's my fear, that he's not really committed. Today when we talked to him and urged him to go to the facility tonight (after his fiancee gets off work and can drive him), he said that he wasn't sure he was ready to go tonight. Note that he has no job, no real commitments, nothing to keep him from going but his own desire. I'm still hoping he has a change in attitude.
Iamhere - Wow, 30 years of sobriety. Seeing my A-in-law struggle with this, I can understand what an accomplishment that is, even with bumps along the way. Congratulations. I understand alcoholism can't really be cured and once in recovery, you're always in recovery (unless you relapse). It's a tough road to hoe. And people ask me why I never touch alcohol!
Thanks again for the support and replies.
-MB11
Iamhere said
Mar 22, 2017
Hey MB11 - my county has free detox services....it's at the county level and not too many know about it. We found out about the one here by contacting our state/county Mental Health Services. Just another thought - I know each state/city/county/etc. is slightly different and I see you've found some options - there may be a few more out there...
(((Hugs))) - 30 minutes, 30 days, 30 years - it's all still One Day at a Time....
shrnp said
Mar 22, 2017
You can get admitted into the hospital for just detox where I live, but you have to arrange your own rehab and treatment afterwards. Many hospitals have social service programs for indigent people that might pay the bill. The treatment centers for people without insurance in my area usually do not have a bed right away, but some of them do detox onsite. It is a state mental health program, and they have outpatient day treatment that you can go to everyday.
makebelieve11 said
Mar 23, 2017
A-in-law is in the Denver area. His fiancee is calling the state Medicaid program to see if there are any in-patient programs that will accept Medicaid. We found out last night that the program we were looking into only accepts Medicaid for outpatients.
He's in imminent danger of losing his housing - and the questions are starting to come up about whether we'll take him in, etc. I've said no. I'm hoping hubby will stand firm on that. Still haven't seen any evidence that A wants to get well. In fact, we found out he was trying to finish off his vodka stash before the fiancee got home last night, and he had called a friend saying he wasn't ready for rehab. So he may end up at a shelter.
Maybe at that point, recovery will start looking better to him...
SerenityRUS said
Mar 23, 2017
Hugs MB,
I have held off responding because I was curious as to what others were going to say and what you discovered on your own. It really sounds like you are in a good place.
Years ago my XAH came home and I was informed his mom and s/dad were moving in with us .. they were being kicked out of their rental .. it was a nightmare the house was falling apart not to mention they were both A's big time .. and at the bottom of their rung. For some reason it took me a moment to figure that all out .. I think because he pulled a salesman trick on me and made a closing statement .. LOL. After having a day and a half to think about it .. I calmly said no. At the time my oldest was 2 and we were having our own issues. Anyway, turns out while he was there the cops showed up because of their Friday night at the fight brawls and he came home and reluctantly agreed they were not moving in with us. I want you know the rest of the family thought we were horrible .. as I pointed out I did not see anyone else stepping up to move them in to their homes. They shut up at that point.
There are ways to support without enabling .. love without being consumed by the disease.
I did call the shelters I did do that part of the deal and they were in a shelter for about a year .. and they could not drink or be drunk .. I don't know if they did or not ... very honestly not my business. They got their own place and did very well for themselves .. his s/dad started working again, they completely stopped drinking at that point. It was sad .. his s/dad got lung cancer and passed away he had started drinking .. at that point I'm not going to stop a dying man from his vices. He had stage 4 and honestly if I was home with his wife every day I would drink too .. she's not responsible for his drinking however WOW is all I can say. The day of his funeral she started drinking again. My XAH was so upset .. you know it was what it was .. and this is how she's always dealt with death.
My point is .. had my XAH and I taken them in .. I think we would have done them a huge disservice to the quality of their life in their last years. I don't think they would have had the sobriety time they did (it was dry however at least it was sober). I also believe it would have ended our marriage sooner than later .. I wouldn't have my son .. sooo .. it all worked out as it needed too.
More will be revealed so hang tough.
makebelieve11 said
Mar 24, 2017
Thanks for the reply, SerenityRUS (I like your username). Sounds like you did the right thing. We are trying to find a program for A-in-law now before he gets released from the hospital tomorrow - and we will probably look for shelters for him, too, if it comes to that.
I just don't see anything good coming from letting him move in with us. It will delay the inevitable outcome of the drinking and drag us down with him. Plus I can't have drinking in my house. Hubby and I are both lifelong teetotalers (hubby was actually a straight-edge punk back in the day).
SerenityRUS said
Mar 24, 2017
That's really my point .. it invites chaos and it's not controlled chaos .. then it's how do you ask them to leave, etc, etc, ..
When you mentioned the issue of one min wanting help and the next not .. my XAH did that with his DUI .. it was like a very dark comedy .. LOL .. I mean as in first he's going to go away for help and then no I can't because money, blah blah blah .. if they don't go when they are what I call "hot" (basically a$$ on fire) without an act of God (my HP) it's not going to happen after they have time to think about it. I can really relate on many issues of what you are dealing with and I understand the difficultly. I have no doubt that my X was highly angry at me for not allowing his parents to move in .. it really was the right move .. people get to recovery when they are suppose to .. sometimes it's not in the cards for them to actually get there which is very sad.
Everyone is so different at what point the physical pain outweighs the emotional pain of whatever the vice is .. nothing will change .. it's a great thing about hope because HOPE (Hold On Pain Ends) does come into play and every time someone stays sober for a day that's truly a miracle.
Hugs :)
makebelieve11 said
Mar 27, 2017
So I think I've got hubby off the subject of "let's let A move in." At least for now. I read him a few of the responses I got here - not sure if the messages penetrated! I really want him to read some AA stuff, even if it's just online.
Five days dry (including his time spent in detox), and A is hanging in there. That's the good news. Hubby and I talked with him Friday night, and he was going over his plans to start sending his resume out, find a job, take care of some long-overdue stuff (regarding his DUI, etc.) and so on. His fiancee sounded elated because this is a 180 from where he was a week ago, when he could barely lift a finger for himself. She was overjoyed and, I have to admit, A did sound much better.
I'm optimistic and skeptical at the same time. Everyone seems eager to believe the hard part is over, but I feel like it's just begun. Hubby wants to send A money, of course. I still feel like we'd be "rescuing" him and perhaps even slowing down his momentum toward self-sufficiency if we start trying to cushion his landing. I'd prefer to support him in other ways. Hubby thinks I'm trying to "punish" A and "make him miserable." And honestly, I am being very firm about this - mostly because I'm afraid hubby will out-maneuver me if I waver at all. He's a clever debater.
They say alcoholism is a family disease, and it's definitely putting stress on my family (or my marriage anyway). I hope we can get on the same page about this.
Hi everyone -
Just to preface, I'm new here, know little about Al-Anon (except what I've read on the web recently), and have never dealt with an A before.
My brother-in-law is an alcoholic and has been in and out of rehab for the past few years. He lives 1500 miles away, with a fiancee who is at her wit's end and is about to leave him, I fear. He has no other family except for his brother (my husband), myself, and a cousin who also lives far away.
A-in-law has drained his finances paying for rehab (and for vodka when he's in between rehabs), as well as for a number of boondoggles over the years. He's at the point where he's going to lose his housing in the next month or so due to his inability to work. His fiancee works but can't support them both.
Hubby wants to pay to help A get into detox for the fourth time (to the tune of $11k out-of-pocket since A let his insurance lapse). A is willing, but not enthusiastic. I want to help, but this is a lot of money and I'm afraid it's going straight down the drain if A isn't committed.
Another complicating factor is that A-in-law has a brain injury from a fall years ago that we think makes impulse control difficult. He's also got depression which is made worse by the 2-3 pints of vodka/day. He's lied to all of our faces about the drinking, has gotten DUIs, won't do little things to help himself even when his fiancee begs -- all the typical stuff for active As. He has also talked about suicide, and hubby is afraid he'll do it unless someone steps in. (We've had to call the police a couple of times, etc.)
I'm not against helping him, if he'll accept it, but I also want to draw a line so as not to get sucked into the financial hole that I know (from reading stories here) that alcoholism can suck people into. I also don't want to start a pattern of A-in-law looking to us for money. Maybe it would be different if A was proactively seeking detox and rehab -- then I'd have some hope that it would work. But right now he's showing little interest in it, even though he seems willing.
Hubby thinks I'm being too hard. He wants to give A another chance with detox, and then hopefully get him into a free/low-cost rehab that A can afford. He fears for A's life, and frankly I do too.
-MB11
-- Edited by makebelieve11 on Tuesday 21st of March 2017 05:52:50 PM
Hi make-believe welcome . Alcoholism is a dreadful progressive, chronic disease over which we are powerless. I can understand the feelings that you expressed and also the dilemma of what action to take in order to help . As I understand it, Detoxing is considered a medical condition for which someone cannot be refused admission to hospital, even if they cannot pay.
I would check with the hospital in his location to determine their admission policy before making any definite decisions.Your husband's intention of looking for a low-cost rehab afterwards is wise and I'm sure they can point you in the right direction
There are no guarantees with this disease and as you have experienced relapse is often experienced. I suggest that both you and your husband search out Al-Anon face-to-face meetings in your community and attend. It is at Al-Anon meetings that I learned how to focus on myself, draw appropriate boundaries and still have compassion and empathy for the alcoholic. Face-to-face meetings are held in most communities and the hotline numbers found in the white pages.
Please keep coming back here there is hope and help
Betty has good suggestions from her experiences and from my experiences let me add that alcoholism is incurable, it can only be arrested by total abstinence. Your brother in law must be committed to sobriety or he dies with his insanity. I suggest you and your husband learn as much about this disease as your are able because it is a fatal disease. I would also suggest to you both to attend a couple open AA meetings and sit and listen to the fellowship speak of their alcoholic journeys. I am also alcoholic and a long time member of AA knowing on a daily basis that I need the fellowship and a power much more greater than myself to stay sober and alive.
You might also try to contact a central office for AA where your brother in law is living and see if some of the membership will check in on him....they refer to that as a 12th step and sometimes it works wonders. Keep coming back here to read up on the ESH that the MIP family brings. ((((hugs))))
Welcome, and I'm glad you have found us.
What I wish someone had told me before I began this journey is that only 15-25% of those who enter a formal program of recovery achieve longterm sobriety. That's how powerful addiction is. I had thought it was just a matter of sort of flipping a switch and poof, it would all be taken care of. You have experience that that's not so.
So the odds are that the $11,000 will not actually mean that your brother-in-law becomes sober this time through. Of course, he may. There are so many alcoholics that even 15-25% means thousands and thousands of people. However, they generally do it on their own timeline, which other people are powerless to influence.
So the way I see it, the $11,000 would be to give yourselves the feeling that you really did try everything you could. Sometimes that feeling is very important. It's good to understand how powerful the addiction is before deciding, though. You and your husband could find a lot of information and support at a face-to-face meeting.
The other thing to remember is that if your brother-in-law decided that he wanted sobriety, he could walk in through the doors of AA multiple times a day, almost anywhere in the English-speaking world. If he doesn't like AA, which some feel, there are other similar formal programs he could try. (Trying to go it alone is almost certainly not an option - if that were going to work, it would have worked already.) What I am getting at is that it's not this expensive rehab or nothing. There are free opportunities for sobriety every single day.
I hope you'll find a face-to-face meeting, and take good care of yourself. No one should have to handle this without support.
Hi MB11! This statement: "A is willing, but not enthusiastic" would make me think through any drastic decisions. As others have said, until the A is ready there's no long lasting recovery. Maybe he needs to drag on the bottom for a bit in order to feel the pain and desperation to change? That's what it took for me. As for you I would suggest you Pray for him then turn him over to his Higher Power.
However, my qualifiers are all still active in the disease and we've explored treatment for substance abuse and mental health more than 12 times. So - recovery is a personal journey and there are no guarantees when one will get sober if ever. It's a progressive, powerful, baffling disease and we as loved ones, family or friends are also affected more than we know at times.
I too can suggest attending Al-Anon meetings to get some more ESH (Experience, Strength & Hope). It is in the rooms of al-anon that I found support like no other and where I learned that nothing I do, say, try, suggest, mandate, etc. will change the experience of another person. I had developed warped thinking and unhealthy 'help habits' that are considered enabling and learned in al-anon to put me first and to set up boundaries and how to detach.
I wish you all well - there is hope and help in Al-Anon - please keep coming back!
Hotrod / Jerry - we are looking into a nonmedical detox that is free (for A, since he has no income) but would admit him to the hospital upon any signs of medical distress. We may either do that or have him admit himself first and then go to the detox/rehab facility after the hospital releases him. Thanks for the suggestion to look up local Al-Anon meetings. I think they might benefit hubby especially. He's taking all of this very hard. His and A's deceased mother was also an alcoholic and this is dredging up unpleasant memories and resentments, too.
Mattie - I think that's exactly what that money means to hubby - he wants the feeling that he at least tried. I do believe we've found some lower-cost alternatives at this point. I know it's really really hard to break an alcohol addiction. This would be A's fourth time in rehab, but he's been getting steadily worse ever since his first stint in rehab. He's at the worst he's ever been now.
Mike B - that's my fear, that he's not really committed. Today when we talked to him and urged him to go to the facility tonight (after his fiancee gets off work and can drive him), he said that he wasn't sure he was ready to go tonight. Note that he has no job, no real commitments, nothing to keep him from going but his own desire. I'm still hoping he has a change in attitude.
Iamhere - Wow, 30 years of sobriety. Seeing my A-in-law struggle with this, I can understand what an accomplishment that is, even with bumps along the way. Congratulations. I understand alcoholism can't really be cured and once in recovery, you're always in recovery (unless you relapse). It's a tough road to hoe. And people ask me why I never touch alcohol!
Thanks again for the support and replies.
-MB11
(((Hugs))) - 30 minutes, 30 days, 30 years - it's all still One Day at a Time....
He's in imminent danger of losing his housing - and the questions are starting to come up about whether we'll take him in, etc. I've said no. I'm hoping hubby will stand firm on that. Still haven't seen any evidence that A wants to get well. In fact, we found out he was trying to finish off his vodka stash before the fiancee got home last night, and he had called a friend saying he wasn't ready for rehab. So he may end up at a shelter.
Maybe at that point, recovery will start looking better to him...
I have held off responding because I was curious as to what others were going to say and what you discovered on your own. It really sounds like you are in a good place.
Years ago my XAH came home and I was informed his mom and s/dad were moving in with us .. they were being kicked out of their rental .. it was a nightmare the house was falling apart not to mention they were both A's big time .. and at the bottom of their rung. For some reason it took me a moment to figure that all out .. I think because he pulled a salesman trick on me and made a closing statement .. LOL. After having a day and a half to think about it .. I calmly said no. At the time my oldest was 2 and we were having our own issues. Anyway, turns out while he was there the cops showed up because of their Friday night at the fight brawls and he came home and reluctantly agreed they were not moving in with us. I want you know the rest of the family thought we were horrible .. as I pointed out I did not see anyone else stepping up to move them in to their homes. They shut up at that point.
There are ways to support without enabling .. love without being consumed by the disease.
I did call the shelters I did do that part of the deal and they were in a shelter for about a year .. and they could not drink or be drunk .. I don't know if they did or not ... very honestly not my business. They got their own place and did very well for themselves .. his s/dad started working again, they completely stopped drinking at that point. It was sad .. his s/dad got lung cancer and passed away he had started drinking .. at that point I'm not going to stop a dying man from his vices. He had stage 4 and honestly if I was home with his wife every day I would drink too .. she's not responsible for his drinking however WOW is all I can say. The day of his funeral she started drinking again. My XAH was so upset .. you know it was what it was .. and this is how she's always dealt with death.
My point is .. had my XAH and I taken them in .. I think we would have done them a huge disservice to the quality of their life in their last years. I don't think they would have had the sobriety time they did (it was dry however at least it was sober). I also believe it would have ended our marriage sooner than later .. I wouldn't have my son .. sooo .. it all worked out as it needed too.
More will be revealed so hang tough.
I just don't see anything good coming from letting him move in with us. It will delay the inevitable outcome of the drinking and drag us down with him. Plus I can't have drinking in my house. Hubby and I are both lifelong teetotalers (hubby was actually a straight-edge punk back in the day).
When you mentioned the issue of one min wanting help and the next not .. my XAH did that with his DUI .. it was like a very dark comedy .. LOL .. I mean as in first he's going to go away for help and then no I can't because money, blah blah blah .. if they don't go when they are what I call "hot" (basically a$$ on fire) without an act of God (my HP) it's not going to happen after they have time to think about it. I can really relate on many issues of what you are dealing with and I understand the difficultly. I have no doubt that my X was highly angry at me for not allowing his parents to move in .. it really was the right move .. people get to recovery when they are suppose to .. sometimes it's not in the cards for them to actually get there which is very sad.
Everyone is so different at what point the physical pain outweighs the emotional pain of whatever the vice is .. nothing will change .. it's a great thing about hope because HOPE (Hold On Pain Ends) does come into play and every time someone stays sober for a day that's truly a miracle.
Hugs :)
Five days dry (including his time spent in detox), and A is hanging in there. That's the good news. Hubby and I talked with him Friday night, and he was going over his plans to start sending his resume out, find a job, take care of some long-overdue stuff (regarding his DUI, etc.) and so on. His fiancee sounded elated because this is a 180 from where he was a week ago, when he could barely lift a finger for himself. She was overjoyed and, I have to admit, A did sound much better.
I'm optimistic and skeptical at the same time. Everyone seems eager to believe the hard part is over, but I feel like it's just begun. Hubby wants to send A money, of course. I still feel like we'd be "rescuing" him and perhaps even slowing down his momentum toward self-sufficiency if we start trying to cushion his landing. I'd prefer to support him in other ways. Hubby thinks I'm trying to "punish" A and "make him miserable." And honestly, I am being very firm about this - mostly because I'm afraid hubby will out-maneuver me if I waver at all. He's a clever debater.
They say alcoholism is a family disease, and it's definitely putting stress on my family (or my marriage anyway). I hope we can get on the same page about this.
Thanks again, everyone
MB11