I hope this is okay to post as it is in regards to my belief system. I am a Christian. I pray and I read the Bible. However, and this was the same issue I had years ago while in Alanon, I struggle with being obedient to my God and some of the concepts of Alanon. I know this is what kept me in my marriage far too long. As a christian, I am commanded to love and serve others. I am having a very hard time with this, as I know Alanon says to detach with love. Also, I am commanded to think of others before myself, and in a sense, this actually enabled my AH in many ways. If there are other christians here, how did you find the balance? In my opinion, some of what Alanon suggests seems contradictory to my faith.
hotrod said
Mar 11, 2017
Hi Marie. Alanon is a Spiritual program and not a Religious one. We are encouraged to "take what we like and leave the rest". I do not believe that alanon contradicts the beliefs that you expressed. I found that I had to learn to love unconditionally before I knew how to love. The love I expressed prior to alanon had strings and expectations attached.
Alanon explained that in order to love others, I had to take care of myself first. I needed to nourish my self, and not look to other to take care of me. I then learned how to love unconditionally without looking for them to reciprocate .
I do believe that alanon taught me how to love and care for others simply because I learned to not attach any expectation to them as I was taking care of myself and not judging critiquing or condemning others.
Detachment with love, focusing on myself, trusting to a God of love helps me to live my life with dignity and respect for myself and others
Jill said
Mar 11, 2017
Hello This is a good topic for me.
I think of it like the airplane announcement when they're demonstrating the oxygen mask that falls from the panel above. I have to put on my own mask first, then I can put the mask on my toddler. If I get the sequence wrong, I won't have enough oomph to save either of us.
I have to save myself first. Having gone so far astray in this family disease, I must restore myself to sanity first. Without that, I have nothing to give. Worse yet, I contaminate others with my insane frantic dance of "helping" anyone but me.
I've tried it the way of me last. That's what brought me here. It didn't work.
Marie71 said
Mar 11, 2017
Thanks ladies. The concept of putting myself first just seems so foreign to me. I don't know how many times 'no' was in my head but 'yes' came out of my mouth.
hotrod said
Mar 11, 2017
Just keep showing up at meetings, read the literature, try a slogan or two to start. One day at a time, and let go and let God worked for me It is all a process. There is hope
Rickbrins said
Mar 11, 2017
I agree with the oxygen analogy, I can better serve others if I have the energy and wisdom to take care of me first. A better me can better serve everyone around me. Also serving others in the wrong way is not really serving or helping them at all.
Kind of like the "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime." By not growing myself and continuing to enable, I am only giving a fish. By growing my own life and detaching with love, I am teaching how to fish. In my humble opinion.
Marie71 said
Mar 11, 2017
Thanks Rick. I hear what you are saying, but some of what I also heard in the church about caring for yourself didn't seem to apply when it came to marriage. (But that's a whole other story)
Jerry F said
Mar 11, 2017
((((Marie)))) Of the many many important lessons I got in recovery the one about "but" taught me sooo much, telling me that when after I heard feedback from another member regarding growth I stated "but" it mean't that I would be coming up with excuses not to follow up on the wisdom I was being handed. I also had so many justifications for "NOT" changing or replying "I Can't do that" to a suggestion that I drove my sponsor and membership crazy until my sponsor offer me this awareness; "It isn't that you can't do it...it's that you won't do it"...I was done, toast and changed by the others around me. Thank you HP for truly, If I kept an open mind...I would find help. Keeping coming back ((((hugs))))
oh...and take what you like ...you will find help.
kaotob said
Mar 11, 2017
Similar to the airplane analogy, I learned in Al-Anon to give from my excess, not from my essence. The problem was that when I got here, I didn't have an excess. I needed to get filled by meetings, readings, and talking with my sponsor and others. Once I did, the people in my life I felt I "should" be giving to benefited from the change in my giving because I stopped giving out of guilt and obligation, and started giving out of a true desire to give. Keep coming and you will find the balance you are looking for.
Marie71 said
Mar 11, 2017
I don't think my 'but' is because I don't want to, it's because I don't know how to...I want to get this...I really don't like who I am anymore. But I have no skills on navigating this, and how to reconcile it with my faith.
a4l said
Mar 11, 2017
At times i struggle with aspects of life and how it ties into certain doctrines. In alanon ive learned to hand over to my HP that which is not mine to understand, trusting always that the answers will come in Gods time which I've experienced to be perfect timing many times in my life. This program has taught me to lean on my HP, surrendering my own will to HP, things i couldn't do consciously before alanon. I've actually found alanon has reconciled me very closely to my faith and taken certain understandings to a far deeper level. Really, i think a close examination of the steps could help. There is nothing in the 12 steps that contravenes any persuasion which is in my view a marvel of the world.
Jerry F said
Mar 12, 2017
Marie I understand and when I first arrived and learned what you just mentioned of myself I knew I was going to have to chase others down who had what I wanted and ask, "Excuse me can you please help me"? The fellowship never turned me away or down. The serenity prayer says ..."and the courage to change the things I can". The literature says "Courage is fear that has said its prayers" and if you listen with an open mind you will find much much more help. There is so much value in having faith in this program and your can keep the other faith you have also. I was told "We are not a religion and if you practice the steps religiously your life will change for the better". Mine did and still does. Over time more came to change for me and none of it just over night. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
Marie71 said
Mar 13, 2017
Thank you Jerry and a4l for your comments. a4l, my friend said something similar, that alanon actually helped her faith walk. Jerry, one thing I am betting better at is asking for help, but at times I still feel stupid for having to ask.
Rickbrins said
Mar 13, 2017
Please, never feel stupid asking or sharing, we are Family and we care too much to judge like that!
Marie71 said
Mar 14, 2017
Thanks Rick.
KennyFenderjazz said
Mar 14, 2017
I am a Christian as well. When I think of this topic, I sometimes think of families in the church. In a couple of churches we have been in, there were a few families that are *always* there, and that take on *everything*. This is pretty common in churches. But then, when my wife wanted to volunteer to do something, she would always get "It's ok dear, Helen has always done this, you don't have to worry with it' or 'Fred has always done that, he doesn't need any help'.
These people were ensuring that my wife was not be able to grow in her service to the church. They were also enabling others who were effectively addicted to church life to continue on and shut others out.
So, the families that seemed to "love" the church the most in some cases were actually doing it a disservice. In addition, they weren't tending to their families as well, because they had little family time because they were always at the church building.
So, to me, that is a case where Christians are encouraged to give of themselves, but allowed to give of themselves too much to the detriment of themselves and others.
Kenny
Iamhere said
Mar 14, 2017
Good share Kenny - I too have seen all kinds of Christians....I had issues when I arrived as I had stepped away from any/all organized religion. A variety of reasons, but ultimately I believe I felt unworthy and I was more comfortable isolating from others as I spent a ton of time comparing my insides to the outsides of others. Sunday service was one place where I 'saw' everyone happy but me - which recovery taught me was part of my disease.
As I consider my religious experience with my spiritual experience, I'm able to find peace in pausing long enough to consider and listen for what God truly wants for me. While I know what's written in the bible about honor and submission and a variety of other subjects that seem to be conflicting to self-care and putting self first, I've come to accept that I am nothing if I am not spiritually whole. I can not be or become spiritually whole if I put anyone in between my direct relationship with my HP. For me, this also includes pastor or leader. Everyone I interact with - program, life, social, church, etc. is equally imperfect just as I am and all of these folks deserve equal respect from me.
I recall being a rebellious teen-ager who was sneaking into bars well below legal age. I found it fascinating to see the family patriarch sitting with wife and children in a pew during Sunday service after they were hitting on me the night before. This inability to understand the imperfections of humans vs. God was the beginning of my faith crisis. I vividly recall asking God how they were welcome in his home after the things I'd seen the night before! I was very naive and sheltered back then and the program more than anything else helped me reconcile reality vs. faith vs. trust in that which we see and don't see.
I am one who tries to keep things really simple, so view religion as an opportunity to praise in a group. I view spirituality as my personal relationship with God. Both want me to be of service and the best version of me I can be. Both want me to have faith in a power greater than I and to trust in that which I can't see. Both can enhance my recovery and my soul. The key for me was to find balance in my brain, my heart and my actions....this took a bit of patience and practice!
Marie71 said
Mar 14, 2017
Kenny, I often feel I give more of myself that I should. I have a hard time with 'no'. But, after reading Iamhere's post, this quote really struck me "While I know what's written in the bible about honor and submission and a variety of other subjects that seem to be conflicting to self-care and putting self first, I've come to accept that I am nothing if I am not spiritually whole. I can not be or become spiritually whole if I put anyone in between my direct relationship with my HP." This is something I definitely have to think about.
Rickbrins said
Mar 14, 2017
Why is it that I can't have coffee and a doughnut with you all? I love the way you all think and share, thank you!
Iamhere said
Mar 15, 2017
Rick - you are 'singing my song'.....I love doughnuts & coffee!!! Ha.ha.ha.....Happy Wednesday to one and all!
Marie - for me, that you read something written by me (God's words....not mine) is exactly how this program works for me. I grew up with good parents who did great by us. We were 'forced' into religion as that's what they knew to do. I learned many, many great things from my FOO. Then, at some point, my journey became hard, trying and insane.
I found recovery and by listening with an open mind, much of what I had learned about God, faith, joy, peace, living, etc. began to change. I realized that what I thought was faith was often self-will with a 'request' for things my way. I prayed with intent to meet my wants/needs, not for God's will and acceptance.
My concept of God, his intent and power and his will for me has changed through recovery. This is possible because of the insight/experience of others and the willingness to be open. I love when a share makes me pause and consider my own journey. The loving exchange in recovery has been an absolute game-changer for my serenity, sanity and growth!
(((Hugs)))
Miss Pearl said
Apr 14, 2017
I have a higher power it is personal to me my family is where I gain strength from and I am grateful for them each and every day.
2HP said
Apr 14, 2017
I am coming in late but really appreciate the topic. In Al-anon, I was told I should work the steps in order. And studying them, I see that BEFORE step 12, I am meant to practice and seek spiritual awareness, step 11.
I find this is exactly what Jesus told us to do, "seek FIRST the kingdom of God....."
The Bible also says, "Be still and Know I am God" ... be still because only THEN will you have any knowledge or knowing of Me.
so to me, real Christ followers embrace and know and feel His presence ... only then can we be guided by His infinite wisdom to serve others in God's way. the 12 steps were instrumental in helping me sort that out and not miss the importance because otherwise it's the Little Me going out in the world attempting service on His behalf. Better to go to the Boss and get instructions before I try to do the job. Following the steps, I make myself the instrument I am meant to be, letting go of little self.... and letting God.
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 14th of April 2017 11:17:45 AM
Jerry F said
Apr 14, 2017
I like that 2HP. The thoughts and new behaviors I can identify as coming from my own recovery also and I continue to practice consistently as a life time family member of AA and Al-Anon. The 12th step, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these step;" was and is a measuring rod of my spiritual growth and daily behavior. Today I know and can hear my HP laugh in appreciation as I live the steps in my life. Great post. (((Hugs)))
Stan1 said
Apr 14, 2017
(((Marie))) Being Christian and being in Al-Anon has just never been a problem, if anything it has just enhanced my appreciation for the world around me and my HP as I understand. Just like when I learned to drive a car, HP watches over me after I have studied the learners manual and practiced driving the vehicle with an instructor until I have the knowledge and capability to drive solo.God has a much more difficult time protecting me if I just jump in a car and try to drive without instruction; surely going to crash. Growing up I didn't learn the healthy way to navigate through life. In Al-Anon I Listen and Learn how to grow again with those who share their Experience, Hope and Strength. Just keep coming back, leaving the But's at the door might be helpful
-- Edited by Stan1 on Friday 14th of April 2017 01:26:20 PM
Marie71 said
Apr 15, 2017
Being new to the program I guess I still have to learn how the two can go together. Part of it is I just want to get it 'right now'...to understand, to know how to navigate life. I need to remember that learning is a process.
EstherElizabeth said
Feb 18, 2020
What a great topic, something I have struggled with myself!
As kids we were taught to put everyone else before ourselves, that we were responsible for other peoples choices and happiness, and it was our responsibility to convert the world and we were also to give an account to God if we failed, and that it was selfish to put ourselves first, submission meant doing whatever those in authority told you, helping others instead of yourself was godly, convincing others of the truth and changing their minds was of it most importance, because we had the truth, ect.
After being in recovery for 2 1/2 years, Im still trying to sort out the wrong teachings and unhelpful skills that I learned as a child to cope with an incredible amount of control, which stemmed from my fathers alcoholic FOO, and my mothers codependency, which were masked by Christian religion.
Several of the comments were very helpful; thank you! Im on step 4, so I know I have a ways to go. Im trying to keep perspective. As I let go of my former identity, Im stepping back from service in my church until I have a firm grasp of my purpose, healthy motives and a lot more Recovery under my belt.
Alanon has definitely revolutionized my life; Im excited to keep learning and growing stronger and being able to discern these matters.
Iamhere said
Feb 18, 2020
Welcome to MIP EstherElizabeth - glad you found us and glad that you joined right in and shared! This topic is an older one so you may/may not hear from too many members. Please keep coming back!
DavidG said
Feb 18, 2020
Nice share, EE... and welcome... ...
As a kid- I slipped between the barbed wire- and went to church across the road. My folks were drinkers, and most likely never knew was there!
so I don't really have any baggage about religion. In Alanon we get spoiled with kindness... ... and maybe feel that churches will never ever measure up- as far as listening goes- for starters!!! Cheers... ...
I hope this is okay to post as it is in regards to my belief system. I am a Christian. I pray and I read the Bible. However, and this was the same issue I had years ago while in Alanon, I struggle with being obedient to my God and some of the concepts of Alanon. I know this is what kept me in my marriage far too long. As a christian, I am commanded to love and serve others. I am having a very hard time with this, as I know Alanon says to detach with love. Also, I am commanded to think of others before myself, and in a sense, this actually enabled my AH in many ways. If there are other christians here, how did you find the balance? In my opinion, some of what Alanon suggests seems contradictory to my faith.
Hi Marie. Alanon is a Spiritual program and not a Religious one. We are encouraged to "take what we like and leave the rest". I do not believe that alanon contradicts the beliefs that you expressed. I found that I had to learn to love unconditionally before I knew how to love. The love I expressed prior to alanon had strings and expectations attached.
Alanon explained that in order to love others, I had to take care of myself first. I needed to nourish my self, and not look to other to take care of me. I then learned how to love unconditionally without looking for them to reciprocate .
I do believe that alanon taught me how to love and care for others simply because I learned to not attach any expectation to them as I was taking care of myself and not judging critiquing or condemning others.
Detachment with love, focusing on myself, trusting to a God of love helps me to live my life with dignity and respect for myself and others
Hello This is a good topic for me.
I think of it like the airplane announcement when they're demonstrating the oxygen mask that falls from the panel above. I have to put on my own mask first, then I can put the mask on my toddler. If I get the sequence wrong, I won't have enough oomph to save either of us.
I have to save myself first. Having gone so far astray in this family disease, I must restore myself to sanity first. Without that, I have nothing to give. Worse yet, I contaminate others with my insane frantic dance of "helping" anyone but me.
I've tried it the way of me last. That's what brought me here. It didn't work.
Kind of like the "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach him to fish and he eats for a lifetime." By not growing myself and continuing to enable, I am only giving a fish. By growing my own life and detaching with love, I am teaching how to fish. In my humble opinion.
((((Marie)))) Of the many many important lessons I got in recovery the one about "but" taught me sooo much, telling me that when after I heard feedback from another member regarding growth I stated "but" it mean't that I would be coming up with excuses not to follow up on the wisdom I was being handed. I also had so many justifications for "NOT" changing or replying "I Can't do that" to a suggestion that I drove my sponsor and membership crazy until my sponsor offer me this awareness; "It isn't that you can't do it...it's that you won't do it"...I was done, toast and changed by the others around me. Thank you HP for truly, If I kept an open mind...I would find help. Keeping coming back ((((hugs))))
oh...and take what you like ...you will find help.
Marie I understand and when I first arrived and learned what you just mentioned of myself I knew I was going to have to chase others down who had what I wanted and ask, "Excuse me can you please help me"? The fellowship never turned me away or down. The serenity prayer says ..."and the courage to change the things I can". The literature says "Courage is fear that has said its prayers" and if you listen with an open mind you will find much much more help. There is so much value in having faith in this program and your can keep the other faith you have also. I was told "We are not a religion and if you practice the steps religiously your life will change for the better". Mine did and still does. Over time more came to change for me and none of it just over night. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
These people were ensuring that my wife was not be able to grow in her service to the church. They were also enabling others who were effectively addicted to church life to continue on and shut others out.
So, the families that seemed to "love" the church the most in some cases were actually doing it a disservice. In addition, they weren't tending to their families as well, because they had little family time because they were always at the church building.
So, to me, that is a case where Christians are encouraged to give of themselves, but allowed to give of themselves too much to the detriment of themselves and others.
Kenny
As I consider my religious experience with my spiritual experience, I'm able to find peace in pausing long enough to consider and listen for what God truly wants for me. While I know what's written in the bible about honor and submission and a variety of other subjects that seem to be conflicting to self-care and putting self first, I've come to accept that I am nothing if I am not spiritually whole. I can not be or become spiritually whole if I put anyone in between my direct relationship with my HP. For me, this also includes pastor or leader. Everyone I interact with - program, life, social, church, etc. is equally imperfect just as I am and all of these folks deserve equal respect from me.
I recall being a rebellious teen-ager who was sneaking into bars well below legal age. I found it fascinating to see the family patriarch sitting with wife and children in a pew during Sunday service after they were hitting on me the night before. This inability to understand the imperfections of humans vs. God was the beginning of my faith crisis. I vividly recall asking God how they were welcome in his home after the things I'd seen the night before! I was very naive and sheltered back then and the program more than anything else helped me reconcile reality vs. faith vs. trust in that which we see and don't see.
I am one who tries to keep things really simple, so view religion as an opportunity to praise in a group. I view spirituality as my personal relationship with God. Both want me to be of service and the best version of me I can be. Both want me to have faith in a power greater than I and to trust in that which I can't see. Both can enhance my recovery and my soul. The key for me was to find balance in my brain, my heart and my actions....this took a bit of patience and practice!
Marie - for me, that you read something written by me (God's words....not mine) is exactly how this program works for me. I grew up with good parents who did great by us. We were 'forced' into religion as that's what they knew to do. I learned many, many great things from my FOO. Then, at some point, my journey became hard, trying and insane.
I found recovery and by listening with an open mind, much of what I had learned about God, faith, joy, peace, living, etc. began to change. I realized that what I thought was faith was often self-will with a 'request' for things my way. I prayed with intent to meet my wants/needs, not for God's will and acceptance.
My concept of God, his intent and power and his will for me has changed through recovery. This is possible because of the insight/experience of others and the willingness to be open. I love when a share makes me pause and consider my own journey. The loving exchange in recovery has been an absolute game-changer for my serenity, sanity and growth!
(((Hugs)))
I am coming in late but really appreciate the topic. In Al-anon, I was told I should work the steps in order. And studying them, I see that BEFORE step 12, I am meant to practice and seek spiritual awareness, step 11.
I find this is exactly what Jesus told us to do, "seek FIRST the kingdom of God....."
The Bible also says, "Be still and Know I am God" ... be still because only THEN will you have any knowledge or knowing of Me.
so to me, real Christ followers embrace and know and feel His presence ... only then can we be guided by His infinite wisdom to serve others in God's way. the 12 steps were instrumental in helping me sort that out and not miss the importance because otherwise it's the Little Me going out in the world attempting service on His behalf. Better to go to the Boss and get instructions before I try to do the job. Following the steps, I make myself the instrument I am meant to be, letting go of little self.... and letting God.
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 14th of April 2017 11:17:45 AM
I like that 2HP. The thoughts and new behaviors I can identify as coming from my own recovery also and I continue to practice consistently as a life time family member of AA and Al-Anon. The 12th step, "Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these step;" was and is a measuring rod of my spiritual growth and daily behavior. Today I know and can hear my HP laugh in appreciation as I live the steps in my life. Great post. (((Hugs)))
(((Marie))) Being Christian and being in Al-Anon has just never been a problem, if anything it has just enhanced my appreciation for the world around me and my HP as I understand. Just like when I learned to drive a car, HP watches over me after I have studied the learners manual and practiced driving the vehicle with an instructor until I have the knowledge and capability to drive solo.God has a much more difficult time protecting me if I just jump in a car and try to drive without instruction; surely going to crash. Growing up I didn't learn the healthy way to navigate through life. In Al-Anon I Listen and Learn how to grow again with those who share their Experience, Hope and Strength. Just keep coming back, leaving the But's at the door might be helpful
-- Edited by Stan1 on Friday 14th of April 2017 01:26:20 PM
As a kid- I slipped between the barbed wire- and went to church across the road. My folks were drinkers, and most likely never knew was there!
so I don't really have any baggage about religion. In Alanon we get spoiled with kindness...
... and maybe feel that churches will never ever measure up- as far as listening goes- for starters!!! Cheers... 
...