H left early this a.m. for a brunch 1.5 hrs away with son. I found his money clip on kitchen counter. He misplaces keys, glasses, wallet, etc., frequently. I have been Ms. Find It for way too long. His son gave him a set of tags and an app to help him find stuff but he hasn't set it for anything besides keys. I stopped myself from texting him about money clip, but now I'm wondering -- what's kind and what's enabling? He is very likely not to notice and will have to retrace steps between son's house, restaurant, etc. a quick note would save him a lot of time.
Program tools and slogans: let go and let God. How important is it? Keep it simple. I didn't cause and can't control it but I can cure it in this case with one text. Thoughts?
Minor in scheme of things but trying to change behavior patterns, you know.
hotrod said
Jan 14, 2017
In my opinion (and that is all it is) i would examine my motive for not wanting to tell him. If I thought that withholding the information would" teach him a lesson", I would know that this was my old" controlling defect" in action. I see nothing enabling about texting someone that their money clip is at home as this kindness would certainly relieve their anxiety.
MissM said
Jan 14, 2017
Not leaving a quick note might prompt him to take steps to avoid a repeat occurrence (like setting the ap for the money clip). Not that we are bound in any way to "teach people a lesson" but, by not getting in the way of the natural consequences of his actions you allow him the dignity of experiencing them himself and adjusting accordingly..people tend to "need" us to do things for them until they have to do them alone and then, surprisingly, they can and do do for themselves...just my 10c.
What is best for you? People within relationships have strengths and weaknesses and compensate for each other so it really comes down to whether or not it's a big deal for you and whether you like or dislike being Ms Find It. I personally get my feathers very ruffled when I am expected to take on that role (but mind you I am also the one who will ask my child to help me find my glasses when they are on my face so, you know...lol).
Mcat54 said
Jan 14, 2017
This is the dichotomy -- I want to relieve anxiety but I am very much relied upon and would like to resign as the finder. I like to think I'm beyond the stage of wanting to teach lessons. Betty, I will use your words as a guide in future to check for the controlling defect, which is very much alive. Thanks. I knew I'd get exactly the helpful ESH I needed. Cathy
Iamhere said
Jan 14, 2017
My program suggests I'm on a spiritual journey. Part of my journey suggests I Keep it Simple. I also believe in Service work - big and small. I believe that service work expands way beyond the program and would have no issue sending a text or calling to share my findings.
I was told early on that it's my motives that help me determine if I am being helpful or I am enabling. If I expect nothing in exchange, no praise/recognition/other in exchange and I have no hidden agenda, it's service to others. If I can't clearly check those things off, it may not be.
My AH and my oldest are scattered and have always been......sober or not. It's just who they are. They've taken off for baseball games without cleats - which blows my mind. I used to eye-roll over these kinds of things and lecture. I know have come to accept it's just who they are. I happen to have a character asset of being organized. They don't. God made us all different to complement each other, not tear each other apart.
So - share away! Save someone some stress and time! Service work comes in many shapes and forms in my program....make it a great day!
2HP said
Jan 14, 2017
I remember a woman sharing at a meeting once... She told of how a thunderstorm was fast approaching, and her alcoholic son was sleeping upstairs. She noticed that, in the driveway, he had left all the windows down in his pickup truck from the night before. She was confused about whether or not she should roll up his windows. She wondered if this would be enabling and caretaking but then decided that she would be doing for him what he should have done for himself. So she decided NOT to roll up the windows and the rain poured into his truck. To my dismay, the group applauded.
A second wave of storms was about to blow through the region and her son was still sleeping, which angered her, "How could he sleep through these storms?!!!"
Her husband (who was NOT in recovery) insisted this time he would roll up the windows. She then had a fight with him, telling him he was "enabling" their son.
His question to her was, "If that was my car, would you roll up my windows?? If our son was NOT alcoholic, would you roll up his windows??"
I am reminded of the countless times my sponsor had asked me, "Are you powerless yet?"
To me, Mother Teresa had a way of saying Let Go and Let God when she said that people are going to be (the way they are going to be.) Be kind anyway... Do good anyway, she said. "In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway." so hard to remember, right?!
I am powerless over the effects that living with alcoholism had on me, but I'm going to keep coming back (((big hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 14th of January 2017 02:49:13 PM
Jerry F said
Jan 14, 2017
How I learned enabling was if it by consequence lengthened the alcoholic drinking. Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you doesn't defy that. It is something I would do for anyone if I could so I do it where and when I can. "Place me where you want me...tell me what to do" ....keep it simple and then turn it over. Great post.
((((hugs))))
oceanpine said
Jan 14, 2017
So much great ESH in this thread! For some reason, this is hitting a deep nerve with me and has brought tears to the surface. Especially the example with the son and the rain storm. I am just feeling a lot of compassion for myself and for all of us, who so want to be kind people and yet are confronted with these confounding situations day after day after day. I place kindness above just about every other human trait, and I really really struggle with the dichotomy posed by the OP of golden rule vs enabling. I like Jerry's share of if it is something that will lengthen the drinking (does that also mean, make the drinking easier/more likely to continue?) Perhaps I will make my own post on this.
I also really like the "check your motives." Look inside your heart. As someone above said, it's ultimately between me and God. So many good nuggets to remember.
ada58 said
Jul 26, 2018
Awesome.
DavidG said
Jul 26, 2018
Good topic here, ma'am... ... ...
I am 67 years old and used to have the same problem, as your son...
I got extra help- which I can put down to mindfulness- which had helped me a lot.
I have a backboard- in my room here- which is a great help too.
I grew up in an alcoholic home which was messy and chaotic. The boundaries were messy too, as we all can appreciate.
For me self-care is the key to serenity. Self care for ourselves, I keep reminding myself. I had to learn to do this on a daily basis. And then on a minute to minute basis.
I am doing it right now- sharing to your topic! It all adds up.
One day at a time. One time at a time. With my son and two daughters- it comes down to my gut. My gut reaction. Do I treat them like an adult- or as a child?
And the answer always is:- it depends.
Sometimes I know I need to mend family stuff. After I have managed to mend myself.
Sometimes i have to urge them on- to take on adult responsibility themselves...
...it is a balance... sharing this around does help enormously... thanks for the topic...
Aloha said
Jul 27, 2018
My roommate used to burn food a lot. They'd put something in the oven or on the stove and set the timer then wander far off to another portion of the house where they couldn't hear it when the timer went off.
Of course, I could hear it. I'd give them maybe 5 minutes to show up and if they didn't then I went ahead and took the food out of the oven or off the stove so it wouldn't burn.
One time, their timer was going off and I yelled out to them that their food was ready. The roommate was apparently having a bad day and snapped at me "well then take it out!"
That really angered me, so I decided if that was the response I was going to get, then I'm not going to say a word next time. Twice I allowed their food to just burn. The problem with that is it then stank up the house.
Finally, I had a conversation with the person and said "I feel like I've been involuntarily put in charge of whether or not your food gets ruined. I suggest you set a timer that you can hear in the other room with you."
After their food getting burned twice my roommate agreed that perhaps that was a good idea.
I think the point of my story here is that every situation is unique. Could i keep taking their food out for them? Sure, I guess, but then, as I said, it seemed to start to form a habit with this person that they expected me to take care of their food without asking first. There were times where I was in the middle of a phone call, etc. and would have to drop what I was doing to take care of their food. Getting snapped at when I told them their stuff was ready is what told me this situation wasn't going to work for me. But I learned neither was smelling burned food, so I took a risk and communicated a suggestion, which fortunately they agreed to. I've not had to take care of their food ever again, unless on some rare occasions where they have the courtesy to realize they may be in the middle of something and they ask kindly "hey, if you hear the timer go off, could you take that out for me? I'd appreciate it."
Learn as you go along. This is all an experiment.
And I echo Jerry - the main thing with not enabling is to not continue doing activities that allow the A to keep drinking or not face the consequences of their actions as a result of their drinking.
You get to feel out "how important is it?" with each situation. And yes, often it comes down to Mother Theresa's suggestion to "be kind anyways."
Bo said
Jul 27, 2018
I don't see why this is not a "look at yourself" situation. Being Ms. Find It for way too long is your baggage, and while it may have been enabling "back then" -- today is here and now. Today. This moment. Stop looking through the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror. You know what he has and hasn't set the app for, and you are wondering? Do the next right thing in front of you. Check your motives!!! Past? Baggage? Anger? Whatever it is. You don't have to keep being the person to "find it" -- but in this case, telling him he forgot his money...it's the next right thing in front of you.
Bo said
Jul 27, 2018
And, BTW, to further share my experience -- Keep it simple. I don't agree with all of the "spirituality" as it relates to every single thing that happens. Last night at a meeting, someone sneezed. Someone else said god bless you. The person who sneezed said thanks, and the person who said god bless you said you're welcome. All that? Sometimes a sneeze is just a sneeze. I don't see any reason to overcomplicate a one off. The past is the past. You learn from the past, but you live in the present.
I also don't agree with the motives telling you a or b or c. I always say check your motives because that tells you about who you are being. People fool themselves for years saying how important is it. Or they live in denial because of whatever reasons exist. So be it. But checking your motives -- if you are open and honest with yourself -- tells you exactly who you are being. Period. Want to think differently about that -- close your eyes and imagine your child marrying someone just like you. There's an honesty and clarity check for you.
If your husband keeps forgetting things -- you can tell him. If you want to. However, you don't have to keep accommodating the fact that he keeps forgetting things. You don't have to change your plans, bring it to him, wait for him, etc. Tell him, if you want, and you are done. If he keeps asking you to look, find it, let him know -- time for a boundary! LOL. All the best.
JerryF said
Jul 27, 2018
Aloha Bo and welcome to the program. I was blessed to have a sponsor, who is now passed away, who use to ask questions of me after I would give my staunch opinions to him, my alcoholic/addict and everyone else in the area. After he asked the question he would expect me to consider and then answer and here has one very powerful one that must have come out of his humility experience files.
"Could you be wrong"?
The first time he posed that question to me I choked...couldn't respond because a "No" answer could never be appropriate. I would never dare answer no and instead I would inventory what I was doing and make my changes as necessary.
How dare he. How dare he not.
(((((hugs)))))
Bo said
Jul 27, 2018
Jerry, thanks, and welcome to you too. Thank you for the insight. I too currently have a sponsor who takes me through a similar exercise. I agree with you in that it's self-inventory, self-reflection, etc. I also agree that the end result was change -- in me. What makes it work for me is the objectivity. Without that, it's me and the "glasses" I look through. I find those glasses can be all I know, see, feel, etc. -- hence, objectivity, others' perspective has always been key to me, for me.
That said, my initial post is my experience and what I learned about me. That may or may not apply to someone else as people are different. However, it is my experience and what I learned. My second post, while the same really is about my experience in self-inventory -- keep it simple, and the role "spirituality" may play in my day to day life, experiences, incidents, occurrences, and so on. While I certainly consider myself a very spiritual person, and spirituality plays a major role in my life -- it doesn't in every single thing that happens. Hence, my "sometimes a sneeze is just a sneeze" analogy; and that's all it was, an analogy. My experience also has been that many people tend to have the very powerful desire to "arrive in the answer of the why" -- and many times, for me, related to the alcoholic, there is no why. The more I try and figure it out so to speak, the more I drove myself crazy. I always remember the "you can't apply logic to an illogical person and situation" and I learned it well throughout my life with an alcoholic. The check your motives too is my experience and I am sure everyone's is different. For me, as I said, it always tells me "who" I am "being" and is it really me or is there something else going own -- anger, resentment, and the whole litany of other character defects that can exist.
Be that as it may -- if you are asking me to ask myself, can I be wrong. Certainly. Always. However, sharing my experience and what that experience has taught me, is, I guess, simply, mine. What each of us learn from our experiences is part, just part of what makes us who we are. Just my perspective. I guess the take what you like and leave the rest always applies. Thanks again.
H left early this a.m. for a brunch 1.5 hrs away with son. I found his money clip on kitchen counter. He misplaces keys, glasses, wallet, etc., frequently. I have been Ms. Find It for way too long. His son gave him a set of tags and an app to help him find stuff but he hasn't set it for anything besides keys. I stopped myself from texting him about money clip, but now I'm wondering -- what's kind and what's enabling? He is very likely not to notice and will have to retrace steps between son's house, restaurant, etc. a quick note would save him a lot of time.
In my opinion (and that is all it is) i would examine my motive for not wanting to tell him. If I thought that withholding the information would" teach him a lesson", I would know that this was my old" controlling defect" in action.
I see nothing enabling about texting someone that their money clip is at home as this kindness would certainly relieve their anxiety.
What is best for you? People within relationships have strengths and weaknesses and compensate for each other so it really comes down to whether or not it's a big deal for you and whether you like or dislike being Ms Find It. I personally get my feathers very ruffled when I am expected to take on that role (but mind you I am also the one who will ask my child to help me find my glasses when they are on my face so, you know...lol).
I was told early on that it's my motives that help me determine if I am being helpful or I am enabling. If I expect nothing in exchange, no praise/recognition/other in exchange and I have no hidden agenda, it's service to others. If I can't clearly check those things off, it may not be.
My AH and my oldest are scattered and have always been......sober or not. It's just who they are. They've taken off for baseball games without cleats - which blows my mind. I used to eye-roll over these kinds of things and lecture. I know have come to accept it's just who they are. I happen to have a character asset of being organized. They don't. God made us all different to complement each other, not tear each other apart.
So - share away! Save someone some stress and time! Service work comes in many shapes and forms in my program....make it a great day!
I remember a woman sharing at a meeting once... She told of how a thunderstorm was fast approaching, and her alcoholic son was sleeping upstairs. She noticed that, in the driveway, he had left all the windows down in his pickup truck from the night before. She was confused about whether or not she should roll up his windows. She wondered if this would be enabling and caretaking but then decided that she would be doing for him what he should have done for himself. So she decided NOT to roll up the windows and the rain poured into his truck. To my dismay, the group applauded.
A second wave of storms was about to blow through the region and her son was still sleeping, which angered her, "How could he sleep through these storms?!!!"
Her husband (who was NOT in recovery) insisted this time he would roll up the windows. She then had a fight with him, telling him he was "enabling" their son.
His question to her was, "If that was my car, would you roll up my windows?? If our son was NOT alcoholic, would you roll up his windows??"
I am reminded of the countless times my sponsor had asked me, "Are you powerless yet?"
To me, Mother Teresa had a way of saying Let Go and Let God when she said that people are going to be (the way they are going to be.) Be kind anyway... Do good anyway, she said. "In the final analysis, it is between you and God. It was never between you and them anyway." so hard to remember, right?!
I am powerless over the effects that living with alcoholism had on me, but I'm going to keep coming back (((big hugs)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 14th of January 2017 02:49:13 PM
How I learned enabling was if it by consequence lengthened the alcoholic drinking. Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you doesn't defy that. It is something I would do for anyone if I could so I do it where and when I can. "Place me where you want me...tell me what to do" ....keep it simple and then turn it over. Great post.
((((hugs))))
I also really like the "check your motives." Look inside your heart. As someone above said, it's ultimately between me and God. So many good nuggets to remember.
Good topic here, ma'am... ...
...
I am 67 years old and used to have the same problem, as your son...
I got extra help- which I can put down to mindfulness- which had helped me a lot.
I have a backboard- in my room here- which is a great help too.
I grew up in an alcoholic home which was messy and chaotic. The boundaries were messy too, as we all can appreciate.
For me self-care is the key to serenity. Self care for ourselves, I keep reminding myself. I had to learn to do this on a daily basis. And then on a minute to minute basis.
I am doing it right now- sharing to your topic!
It all adds up.
One day at a time. One time at a time. With my son and two daughters- it comes down to my gut. My gut reaction. Do I treat them like an adult- or as a child?
And the answer always is:- it depends.
Sometimes I know I need to mend family stuff. After I have managed to mend myself.
Sometimes i have to urge them on- to take on adult responsibility themselves...
...it is a balance... sharing this around does help enormously...
thanks for the topic...
Of course, I could hear it. I'd give them maybe 5 minutes to show up and if they didn't then I went ahead and took the food out of the oven or off the stove so it wouldn't burn.
One time, their timer was going off and I yelled out to them that their food was ready. The roommate was apparently having a bad day and snapped at me "well then take it out!"
That really angered me, so I decided if that was the response I was going to get, then I'm not going to say a word next time. Twice I allowed their food to just burn. The problem with that is it then stank up the house.
Finally, I had a conversation with the person and said "I feel like I've been involuntarily put in charge of whether or not your food gets ruined. I suggest you set a timer that you can hear in the other room with you."
After their food getting burned twice my roommate agreed that perhaps that was a good idea.
I think the point of my story here is that every situation is unique. Could i keep taking their food out for them? Sure, I guess, but then, as I said, it seemed to start to form a habit with this person that they expected me to take care of their food without asking first. There were times where I was in the middle of a phone call, etc. and would have to drop what I was doing to take care of their food. Getting snapped at when I told them their stuff was ready is what told me this situation wasn't going to work for me. But I learned neither was smelling burned food, so I took a risk and communicated a suggestion, which fortunately they agreed to. I've not had to take care of their food ever again, unless on some rare occasions where they have the courtesy to realize they may be in the middle of something and they ask kindly "hey, if you hear the timer go off, could you take that out for me? I'd appreciate it."
Learn as you go along. This is all an experiment.
And I echo Jerry - the main thing with not enabling is to not continue doing activities that allow the A to keep drinking or not face the consequences of their actions as a result of their drinking.
You get to feel out "how important is it?" with each situation. And yes, often it comes down to Mother Theresa's suggestion to "be kind anyways."
I don't see why this is not a "look at yourself" situation. Being Ms. Find It for way too long is your baggage, and while it may have been enabling "back then" -- today is here and now. Today. This moment. Stop looking through the magnifying glass and pick up the mirror. You know what he has and hasn't set the app for, and you are wondering? Do the next right thing in front of you. Check your motives!!! Past? Baggage? Anger? Whatever it is. You don't have to keep being the person to "find it" -- but in this case, telling him he forgot his money...it's the next right thing in front of you.
I also don't agree with the motives telling you a or b or c. I always say check your motives because that tells you about who you are being. People fool themselves for years saying how important is it. Or they live in denial because of whatever reasons exist. So be it. But checking your motives -- if you are open and honest with yourself -- tells you exactly who you are being. Period. Want to think differently about that -- close your eyes and imagine your child marrying someone just like you. There's an honesty and clarity check for you.
If your husband keeps forgetting things -- you can tell him. If you want to. However, you don't have to keep accommodating the fact that he keeps forgetting things. You don't have to change your plans, bring it to him, wait for him, etc. Tell him, if you want, and you are done. If he keeps asking you to look, find it, let him know -- time for a boundary! LOL. All the best.
Aloha Bo and welcome to the program. I was blessed to have a sponsor, who is now passed away, who use to ask questions of me after I would give my staunch opinions to him, my alcoholic/addict and everyone else in the area. After he asked the question he would expect me to consider and then answer and here has one very powerful one that must have come out of his humility experience files.
"Could you be wrong"?
The first time he posed that question to me I choked...couldn't respond because a "No" answer could never be appropriate. I would never dare answer no and instead I would inventory what I was doing and make my changes as necessary.
How dare he. How dare he not.
(((((hugs)))))
That said, my initial post is my experience and what I learned about me. That may or may not apply to someone else as people are different. However, it is my experience and what I learned. My second post, while the same really is about my experience in self-inventory -- keep it simple, and the role "spirituality" may play in my day to day life, experiences, incidents, occurrences, and so on. While I certainly consider myself a very spiritual person, and spirituality plays a major role in my life -- it doesn't in every single thing that happens. Hence, my "sometimes a sneeze is just a sneeze" analogy; and that's all it was, an analogy. My experience also has been that many people tend to have the very powerful desire to "arrive in the answer of the why" -- and many times, for me, related to the alcoholic, there is no why. The more I try and figure it out so to speak, the more I drove myself crazy. I always remember the "you can't apply logic to an illogical person and situation" and I learned it well throughout my life with an alcoholic. The check your motives too is my experience and I am sure everyone's is different. For me, as I said, it always tells me "who" I am "being" and is it really me or is there something else going own -- anger, resentment, and the whole litany of other character defects that can exist.
Be that as it may -- if you are asking me to ask myself, can I be wrong. Certainly. Always. However, sharing my experience and what that experience has taught me, is, I guess, simply, mine. What each of us learn from our experiences is part, just part of what makes us who we are. Just my perspective. I guess the take what you like and leave the rest always applies. Thanks again.