a vent and asking for suggestions on how to share with an A about their behavior
oceanpine said
Jan 1, 2017
The truly "baffle"ng part of my AH's behavior, for me, is that I just really have no idea when he has been drinking, or hasn't. I see behavior that I correlate with his drinking, but, I am not sure... maybe he is acting that way anyhow.
The only reason it matters, is that in the course of human relationships, we usually are able to assume that the other person is fully aware and remembers what they said and did. Even in a nasty fight - when we remember what we said, we can own it, and repair the relationship, or not... but if we don't even know we said it, or did it.... how the heck do we ever get past it?!
Last night (NYE) was my son's 14th birthday. He has been living with me for 3 months, and just got back from a 2-night trip with me. He wanted to be with his dad, at his dad's house (our family home that I no longer live in... sorry... just cannot get past this fact, try as I might). I understood. I worked out an arrangement where his dad would make him dinner, and then his younger brother and I would come up for cake and presents afterwards.
So, I called at about 8:15 pm, and my A said they were just about to eat dinner. I said we would come in awhile, after they were finished. He insisted I come NOW, because they were literally ready to eat. We came about a half hour later, and my A wasn't even home. My son wasn't sure where he had gone. With not much open on NYE, I was a little confused, but thought he probably went to get a drink. I said we would wait ten more minutes, and if he didn't show up, I would take the kids back to my house and make my son dinner.
Sooo... he came back right in time, with a big container of propane. He said he needed it to bbq the meatballs -- which was BS because a) the meatballs were already cooked, and just needed heating and b) he also has a stove and a microwave...so needing to buy propane was likely an excuse. Anyhow, his behavior continued to deteriorate, which antagonized both my kids. After he made a mess of slapping together some dinner, my older son asked if we could leave. After my A lay on top of my younger son on the couch, he also was ready to leave. We left as mellowly as we could, but not before my A blamed us leaving on me and my "darkness". I did not say our son wanted to leave too. It was a crappy way to end a birthday, and the boys were both angry, sad and confused. We stayed up very late and eventually had our (delicious) bday cake and presents, so it ended ok.
So, today, birthday boy wanted to go up to Dad's again. He has video games and stuff he can only do there. I told him he could go up there, but I did not feel like dealing with his dad, so he would have to make the plans, and I would not come in the house. He spoke with his dad, and told him I did not want to see him today. I didn't press for any details, but my son did say it seemed his dad did not remember what happened last night, or why I would not want to see him. (I have just hit my limit. I tried to have happy family time on Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day, and he sabotaged me both times. NYE was the last time I will try this, til something changes to convince me that it can work, happily for all, including me.)
So, that was my vent. I am so sad to have started the new year in this way. I feel awful for my kids. I do not know how to meet their emotional needs around this situation. I know they were both angry and sad, and then they take it out on me if I try to talk about it. I told them that their dad loves them very much, and this has nothing to do with them or me, and my son snapped that I have told him this 1000 times. I just don't know what the balance is.
Now, my question. I have read, in Al-Anon literature, and heard others suggest, that if you are going to mention the A's behavior to them (that they likely don't remember), it is best to stay away from guilt-provoking messages, and just simply state factually what they did. This is an area of my personality where I struggle - I am aware that I often speak in a guilt-provoking way in the best of times. Can anyone give me some suggestions of what to say, to share with my A about his behavior and how it affected our children, and why I don't want to even go in the house when I drop off/pick up because I have had enough?
Iamhere said
Jan 1, 2017
My best recommendation is to allow your children to come to you instead of you going to them. Encourage them to speak their peace with their father when they want to or when they are ready/able to. My sons also would get angry at me for trying to explain my AH's behavior to them. They didn't want to hear excuses from me or him. They, just like us, needed to feel their feelings and process.
My sons are 24 and 22. They just within the last year/so have been able/willing to tell their father a few things that hurt them or angered them when they were growing up. He does take it way better from them than from me - perhaps because he's drinking less, or because they are less emotional, or they were the ones directly hurt - who knows. All I know is when I stepped out of the middle and instead just kept offering recovery, counseling, an ear or other support instead of empty words, they were less angry.
I found no value EVER in telling any of my qualifiers how their actions affected another. It always got twisted or I was just accused of being witchy, nitpicking, nosey, etc. No good ever came from these scenarios. I do fully understand how hard it is to watch your children be affected by the disease - it's almost more than our heart can take. I only found strength to handle it through Al-Anon as well as tons of support when I wasn't sure how to best respond.
(((Hugs)))
hiraeth said
Jan 2, 2017
I just want to acknowledge your heartbreak and distress ((hugs))
Yeah, look, I've never had an experience with telling an alcoholic what they did, and how it affected anyone, that was productive and painless. The alcoholics I know and love, don't tend to hear things the way we might assume they will, even if they are sober. That didn't stop me from telling them though! I don't bother now because I don't need to. But if that's part of your process right now, just blurt it out and let the chips fall where they may. Please accept: there is no right formula. If you are going to tell him, be clear that you are doing that for YOU. It is not going to compute, change him or wake him up. Ever. He has the equivalent of invisible earphones and goggles on that scramble messages according to his inner reality, so he is hearing and seeing and thinking in ways that are mysterious to you, and vice versa. Do not expect a common sense response, though he may know and understand more than you realize. He has the right to be who he is. Plus, don't underestimate the severe, crippling shame, guilt and terror that is a daily part of the disease of alcoholism.
If you are looking for acknowledgment, don't bark up the wrong tree for it. Don't look for it from your AH or your boys, that will lead to more frustration and pain for you. You can take some quiet time, 10 mins, and sit with yourself. Access the parts of you who are crying and tense and afraid and hurt, and nurture them. Comfort them, soothe them, give them space to communicate freely and be heard and seen. See it all, be in touch with it, and become your own best friend. Then you will come up with your own solutions that are really deeply nourishing and empowering to you, totally aligned with your inner self and truth, because they will be your own amazing wisdom. The 'next right thing'.
In an ideal world, you would talk to your AH about all this and he would say (what?) and you would then feel (what?) and the outcome would be (what?) Find out the essence of what you want from this, and then give it to yourself within yourself. That's where your power is. You can totally do that. It's really fun and exciting learning how. It really dwarfs the power the alcoholic has over us. It's amazing. New life can start!
Don't forget that the point of leaving was to be free of this. You've gone through a lot, including leaving the family home and sharing your beautiful sons, in an attempt to free yourself and your life of this dynamic. What an excellent role model for your kids! So follow through all the way, baby! You made a burst for personal peace, you took a huge leap to assert your own authority over your own life and to claim the right to live in joy, you paid a huge price to do it. Obviously you have plenty of bravery and other incredible qualities available. And everything that is happening after that is designed to take you to your best life. I'm sure of it. When I have tried things, with the best intentions, like having happy Christmas and New Years and it has been sabotaged, I know that is HP continuing to teach me. We're here to shine, nothing less.
I ran away from my family, cut them off physically, but still lived tormented by it all for a long time. Old habits. I hadn't changed inside yet. Eventually I got sick of it. I had to be pushed quite far by my own dysfunction before I could see it. Doesn't sound like it will take you as long as it took me.
My experience of alcoholics is in the role of your sons. Kids learn by our subtle cues, body language, tone of voice, vibes, reactions, what we emanate, way more than what we say. When turmoil is afoot, words seem really empty to kids, which may be why your little ones have outbursts.
Our words are the last of the teaching tools when it comes to parenting. They are absorbing who we ARE, not what we are saying. Especially if what we are saying and what we are being or what is happening, are out of sync. So, when I was feeling huge intense distress and trauma but saying soothing things to my kids and keeping a mask of calm plastered on, they were registering and learning the trauma in me. Kids with an alcoholic parent become super sensitive to invisible vibes because we need to know at all times when the alcoholic is going to be drunk and what they might do next. So I reckon these boys are very lucky to have a sober, loving, real parent like you, who is aware of Alanon. Because they will learn subtly from you, the best thing to do for them is your own 100% authentic recovery. Show them. What lucky kids. They stand to learn a heck of a lot through all of this that other kids don't have the opportunity to learn. I reckon you're doing a great job and I really mean that. Teenage boys can be a bit tetchy at the best of times, regardless! Letting go of trying to control others experiences is really hard, especially with kids, but the focus on yourself will benefit them hugely.
Fedora said
Jan 6, 2017
hiraeth, thank you for your wise posts. (I've read a couple others.)
I too have struggled with the idea of how much exposure I can or cannot control between my sons and my AH. It makes me sick whenever we talk to him and he's buzzed/drunk. He gets a certain way where he makes no sense, gets mopey, and says stupid, stupid things.
I can tell my older son gets confused by daddy at times. I am not sure how much the younger one notices. It makes me so sad. When I notice these things, I fantasize about AH being hit by a bus. Then I feel sorry for the bus. So I change my fantasy to a telephone pole. You get the drift. On a couple of occasions I have told my AH what he did with the kids. I get the sense he thinks I am making it up. Because he is sure I am making it up when I tell him I see a counselor, and participate in Al-Anon.Once I told him that he should look up the definitions of the term, instead of the porn that he likes to look at. (Here's a good one for you: I know he has a porn habit. But the alcohol is So much worse that I think of the porn just like some people like to watch sports.) He of course refuses. I'm finally coming around to the understanding that if he wanted to know, he would have looked it up. But he doesn't, sooooo .... I should just look after me.
Oceanpine, everyone I have met that has experience with this disease tells me that all children know what is going on. You can't hide it. That said, you can provide (as much as is possible) a safe place/person to be with. It sounds like you are doing very well with that, considering what you have to deal with. Hugs to you.
The truly "baffle"ng part of my AH's behavior, for me, is that I just really have no idea when he has been drinking, or hasn't. I see behavior that I correlate with his drinking, but, I am not sure... maybe he is acting that way anyhow.
The only reason it matters, is that in the course of human relationships, we usually are able to assume that the other person is fully aware and remembers what they said and did. Even in a nasty fight - when we remember what we said, we can own it, and repair the relationship, or not... but if we don't even know we said it, or did it.... how the heck do we ever get past it?!
Last night (NYE) was my son's 14th birthday. He has been living with me for 3 months, and just got back from a 2-night trip with me. He wanted to be with his dad, at his dad's house (our family home that I no longer live in... sorry... just cannot get past this fact, try as I might). I understood. I worked out an arrangement where his dad would make him dinner, and then his younger brother and I would come up for cake and presents afterwards.
So, I called at about 8:15 pm, and my A said they were just about to eat dinner. I said we would come in awhile, after they were finished. He insisted I come NOW, because they were literally ready to eat. We came about a half hour later, and my A wasn't even home. My son wasn't sure where he had gone. With not much open on NYE, I was a little confused, but thought he probably went to get a drink. I said we would wait ten more minutes, and if he didn't show up, I would take the kids back to my house and make my son dinner.
Sooo... he came back right in time, with a big container of propane. He said he needed it to bbq the meatballs -- which was BS because a) the meatballs were already cooked, and just needed heating and b) he also has a stove and a microwave...so needing to buy propane was likely an excuse. Anyhow, his behavior continued to deteriorate, which antagonized both my kids. After he made a mess of slapping together some dinner, my older son asked if we could leave. After my A lay on top of my younger son on the couch, he also was ready to leave. We left as mellowly as we could, but not before my A blamed us leaving on me and my "darkness". I did not say our son wanted to leave too. It was a crappy way to end a birthday, and the boys were both angry, sad and confused. We stayed up very late and eventually had our (delicious) bday cake and presents, so it ended ok.
So, today, birthday boy wanted to go up to Dad's again. He has video games and stuff he can only do there. I told him he could go up there, but I did not feel like dealing with his dad, so he would have to make the plans, and I would not come in the house. He spoke with his dad, and told him I did not want to see him today. I didn't press for any details, but my son did say it seemed his dad did not remember what happened last night, or why I would not want to see him. (I have just hit my limit. I tried to have happy family time on Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day, and he sabotaged me both times. NYE was the last time I will try this, til something changes to convince me that it can work, happily for all, including me.)
So, that was my vent. I am so sad to have started the new year in this way. I feel awful for my kids. I do not know how to meet their emotional needs around this situation. I know they were both angry and sad, and then they take it out on me if I try to talk about it. I told them that their dad loves them very much, and this has nothing to do with them or me, and my son snapped that I have told him this 1000 times. I just don't know what the balance is.
Now, my question. I have read, in Al-Anon literature, and heard others suggest, that if you are going to mention the A's behavior to them (that they likely don't remember), it is best to stay away from guilt-provoking messages, and just simply state factually what they did. This is an area of my personality where I struggle - I am aware that I often speak in a guilt-provoking way in the best of times. Can anyone give me some suggestions of what to say, to share with my A about his behavior and how it affected our children, and why I don't want to even go in the house when I drop off/pick up because I have had enough?
My sons are 24 and 22. They just within the last year/so have been able/willing to tell their father a few things that hurt them or angered them when they were growing up. He does take it way better from them than from me - perhaps because he's drinking less, or because they are less emotional, or they were the ones directly hurt - who knows. All I know is when I stepped out of the middle and instead just kept offering recovery, counseling, an ear or other support instead of empty words, they were less angry.
I found no value EVER in telling any of my qualifiers how their actions affected another. It always got twisted or I was just accused of being witchy, nitpicking, nosey, etc. No good ever came from these scenarios. I do fully understand how hard it is to watch your children be affected by the disease - it's almost more than our heart can take. I only found strength to handle it through Al-Anon as well as tons of support when I wasn't sure how to best respond.
(((Hugs)))
Yeah, look, I've never had an experience with telling an alcoholic what they did, and how it affected anyone, that was productive and painless. The alcoholics I know and love, don't tend to hear things the way we might assume they will, even if they are sober. That didn't stop me from telling them though! I don't bother now because I don't need to. But if that's part of your process right now, just blurt it out and let the chips fall where they may. Please accept: there is no right formula. If you are going to tell him, be clear that you are doing that for YOU. It is not going to compute, change him or wake him up. Ever. He has the equivalent of invisible earphones and goggles on that scramble messages according to his inner reality, so he is hearing and seeing and thinking in ways that are mysterious to you, and vice versa. Do not expect a common sense response, though he may know and understand more than you realize. He has the right to be who he is. Plus, don't underestimate the severe, crippling shame, guilt and terror that is a daily part of the disease of alcoholism.
If you are looking for acknowledgment, don't bark up the wrong tree for it. Don't look for it from your AH or your boys, that will lead to more frustration and pain for you. You can take some quiet time, 10 mins, and sit with yourself. Access the parts of you who are crying and tense and afraid and hurt, and nurture them. Comfort them, soothe them, give them space to communicate freely and be heard and seen. See it all, be in touch with it, and become your own best friend. Then you will come up with your own solutions that are really deeply nourishing and empowering to you, totally aligned with your inner self and truth, because they will be your own amazing wisdom. The 'next right thing'.
In an ideal world, you would talk to your AH about all this and he would say (what?) and you would then feel (what?) and the outcome would be (what?) Find out the essence of what you want from this, and then give it to yourself within yourself. That's where your power is. You can totally do that. It's really fun and exciting learning how. It really dwarfs the power the alcoholic has over us. It's amazing. New life can start!
Don't forget that the point of leaving was to be free of this. You've gone through a lot, including leaving the family home and sharing your beautiful sons, in an attempt to free yourself and your life of this dynamic. What an excellent role model for your kids! So follow through all the way, baby! You made a burst for personal peace, you took a huge leap to assert your own authority over your own life and to claim the right to live in joy, you paid a huge price to do it. Obviously you have plenty of bravery and other incredible qualities available. And everything that is happening after that is designed to take you to your best life. I'm sure of it. When I have tried things, with the best intentions, like having happy Christmas and New Years and it has been sabotaged, I know that is HP continuing to teach me. We're here to shine, nothing less.
I ran away from my family, cut them off physically, but still lived tormented by it all for a long time. Old habits. I hadn't changed inside yet. Eventually I got sick of it. I had to be pushed quite far by my own dysfunction before I could see it. Doesn't sound like it will take you as long as it took me.
My experience of alcoholics is in the role of your sons. Kids learn by our subtle cues, body language, tone of voice, vibes, reactions, what we emanate, way more than what we say. When turmoil is afoot, words seem really empty to kids, which may be why your little ones have outbursts.
Our words are the last of the teaching tools when it comes to parenting. They are absorbing who we ARE, not what we are saying. Especially if what we are saying and what we are being or what is happening, are out of sync. So, when I was feeling huge intense distress and trauma but saying soothing things to my kids and keeping a mask of calm plastered on, they were registering and learning the trauma in me. Kids with an alcoholic parent become super sensitive to invisible vibes because we need to know at all times when the alcoholic is going to be drunk and what they might do next. So I reckon these boys are very lucky to have a sober, loving, real parent like you, who is aware of Alanon. Because they will learn subtly from you, the best thing to do for them is your own 100% authentic recovery. Show them. What lucky kids. They stand to learn a heck of a lot through all of this that other kids don't have the opportunity to learn. I reckon you're doing a great job and I really mean that. Teenage boys can be a bit tetchy at the best of times, regardless! Letting go of trying to control others experiences is really hard, especially with kids, but the focus on yourself will benefit them hugely.
I too have struggled with the idea of how much exposure I can or cannot control between my sons and my AH. It makes me sick whenever we talk to him and he's buzzed/drunk. He gets a certain way where he makes no sense, gets mopey, and says stupid, stupid things.
I can tell my older son gets confused by daddy at times. I am not sure how much the younger one notices. It makes me so sad. When I notice these things, I fantasize about AH being hit by a bus. Then I feel sorry for the bus. So I change my fantasy to a telephone pole. You get the drift. On a couple of occasions I have told my AH what he did with the kids. I get the sense he thinks I am making it up. Because he is sure I am making it up when I tell him I see a counselor, and participate in Al-Anon.Once I told him that he should look up the definitions of the term, instead of the porn that he likes to look at. (Here's a good one for you: I know he has a porn habit. But the alcohol is So much worse that I think of the porn just like some people like to watch sports.) He of course refuses. I'm finally coming around to the understanding that if he wanted to know, he would have looked it up. But he doesn't, sooooo .... I should just look after me.
Oceanpine, everyone I have met that has experience with this disease tells me that all children know what is going on. You can't hide it. That said, you can provide (as much as is possible) a safe place/person to be with. It sounds like you are doing very well with that, considering what you have to deal with. Hugs to you.