Something I have really been struggling with lately is feeling like I need for my son(adult son) to admit he has been using when he stops by.It's obvious to me that he's high,I already know he is,yet I still call him out on it,even though I already know he's going to deny it.
I am causing arguments with him because of it.I don't understand why I feel I need for him to admit it.
Could it be that it's not that I really am seeking the truth but instead I just want to be right?Is it that I already know that his using is going to most likely lead him back to jail and this is my shady,sneaky way of trying to convey that to him,hoping he will stop using since the cat is out of the bag,a form of manipulation and control?Or is it just my fear and anxiety getting the best of me?
I know that none of you can answer those questions for me.I guess I am trying to figure this out myself,understand my own motives in order to make changes.
Fooled said
Nov 29, 2016
Examining your motives is a big part of self awareness and is achieved in the steps. First things first, the 3 c's You didn't cause it, you cant control it and you cant cure it and let Go and let God were all very important to me in the beginning.
Often times I did the same thing with my qualifiers, I have two. My self righteous, judgmental approach to their activity and the need for them to acknowledge I was right and they were wrong only led to them denying more and my being hypervigilent. Always looking for clues to prove my point. With detachment, I was able to put myself in a state of mind to always be prepared for they were active and respond to any interactions accordingly. I was able to lean into steps 1, 2 and 3 and turn things over to someone with my power than I. In the beginning, detachment let me handle the day to day things regarding myself rather than focusing on them and what they were or were not doing.
((Tessa B)) thanks for posting, keep coming back.
SerenityRUS said
Nov 29, 2016
I think it was a combination of needing to be validated that I wasn't crazy .. My eyes saw what they saw and that goes hand in hand with needing to be right. My ex constantly told me I was crazy and was gas lighting big time. So I was constantly looking for a scrap of my truth not the truth according to the alcoholic.
Jerry F said
Nov 29, 2016
Tessa you already know..."Could it be that it's not that I really am seeking the truth but instead I just want to be right?" Knowing never ever told me I was right. It only told me I needed a lot of help to get "ME" out of the picture and when I didn't the picture was always ugly.
It's okay to let go and let God. Practice, practice, practice. ((((hugs))))
Rinn said
Nov 29, 2016
TessaB What a great way to step back and evaluate the thing you can control... your actions. I think a good question to ask your self is, would your son saying yes he was using actually change anything? Because it sounds like you already know he is using due to his behaviors and actions.
For me, I used to feel like I didn't trust my intuition, because my addict would deny it. manipulate their way around it. I wanted so desperately to believe them. I almost had to hear them to confess to know 100%. But I had to tell myself, if it looks like a duck, quakes like a duck... Does someone have to tell me its a duck?
I am glad you are trying to figure yourself out, and your actions. Keep working on you, it will get better.
LinSC said
Nov 29, 2016
I think for me it was not exactly validation I needed, but wanted to let the qualifier know
"Im not stupid, I know whats going" ...... linsc
andromeda said
Nov 29, 2016
I agree with LinSC. I hated the fact that I knew and he didn't know that I knew. I didn't want him to think I was stupid or that he was smarter than me. In the end, it didn't matter and I had to come to that realization on my own. I had to let it go because it wasn't going to change the facts. He was going to drink whether I knew it, proved it, ignored it, whatever.....
I finally learned to let go.
Iamhere said
Nov 29, 2016
My reasons for wanting to know before recovery were all about being right and wanting to control him....in my way of thinking (quite insane most days), if I knew the truth, then I could fix it or help cure him. As I read your post, and my mind went back there, I had one of those heavy sigh moment because it was just so exhausting.
I am a double-winner so once I started in Al-Anon and got a bit more clear-headed, I had to take a good, hard look at this and my motives. A huge part of me was deeply concerned as this was my child, one I gave birth to and did not want him to die from this disease. Having come to this realization that my concern was valid, my actions were not. In my 'let's get honest and look at this' process, I came to realize he is no different than I was before I came to recovery for my addictions - there is no way in the world I would have ever admitting I was using anything to my parents. And of course, I certainly lied to everyone about how much because that's what we do!!!
I had to accept that no matter what I asked, how I asked it, no matter my motive, he was not going to be honest with me. Dishonesty is a tool of self-preservation for addicts/alcoholics. That dishonesty starts from within and becomes easier than the truth - cold, hard facts are even disputed.
With my sponsor, I came to understood that most questions I asked led to arguments. So - I stopped asking them. It was harder than when I quit alcohol or cigarettes. I had no choice but to deploy long pauses and just fill that time with prayer as it was so new to me.
I felt I had a right to know, I felt I had a need to know and by golly - I was going to find out. Well - now I just stay with my own truth, never spout off my suspicions and let them do what they need to do - knowing that God (HP) doesn't have grandchildren. I slip at times and catch myself and apologize. My sons are both adult age - I really have no right to know what they are doing and have a huge history of non-disclosure with my own parents so ..... had to just let go and let God.
I love the way you are processing. I found it easier to attach from my AH than my sons - there is something about birthing them that made it lots harder but for me, I could only get peace in my brain by acting as if they were just another qualifier in my life instead of my flesh/blood! HTH - take what ya like and leave the rest.
Fooled said
Nov 29, 2016
I found it easier to attach from my AH than my sons - there is something about birthing them that made it lots harder but for me, I could only get peace in my brain by acting as if they were just another qualifier in my life instead of my flesh/blood!
I was the exact opposite. I could detach from my son because I dealt with it for soooooo long I was just tired. My AH although we had been together for 5 years when his disease became most evident we had only been married 5 months. With him it was OMG what have I done? I was determined I was going to whip him into shape. By golly. My son is 24 and he started when he was 13. By the time I got to Ala-non and learned the word detached, it was like someone gave me a gift. I was so over him and his using. I think it was a blessing because tbh I just didn't give a shi* anymore. I was D O N E. Thankfully, he moved in with his father when my AH hit the skids. He recently came back though because his probation officer told him it was here or a new apartment in the county jail. Now I can detach from him and him be here.
slogan_jim said
Nov 29, 2016
SerenityRUS wrote:
I think it was a combination of needing to be validated that I wasn't crazy .
I like this answer.....I think my propensity to call people on their crap, or what I perceive as crap, is rooted in always calling my dad on his crap.
With that, it all comes back to me wondering if I am really crazy.....I have actually told friends in the past 'don't flipping lie to me!' because that is what I would always say to the alcoholic. They'd look at me like ....'ok, dude, relax Jim....'. It's turned into mundane stuff that doesn't affect me as well. Calling people on their 'happy' relationships when their was clearly a tension in the air...calling people out on their salaries when it's so obvious they don't make half that....calling people out on their life advice when they are not in a position to be giving life advice....
Am I crazy?....Is that what a happy relationships looks like?......Maybe he is really more successful than I think........I don't doubt the third one that's not really one you can hide.
It has me constantly questioning myself and everything i do..questioning my status....questioning my approach....the manipulation I suffered as a child/young-adult has me questioning what is real and what is perceived and it seems like I'm on a constant quest to find out.
Fooled said
Nov 29, 2016
When I finally learned to stop questioning my own reality that kept getting skewed from the manipulation and gaslighting that's when I was finally able to let go. Maybe I was getting tired, maybe I just had enough of banging my head into the wall. But, finally, I was able to pause and say hey, what's real here. Truth is I wasnt crazy.
TessaB said
Nov 29, 2016
Thank you for all the replies here!They're all so very helpful.
My son popped in again today for only about 10 minutes,and I just felt so heartbroken,it hurt so deep down in my soul to see him so obviously wasted.He avoided eye contact,he kind of kept his head down too,and I just wanted to grab him and give him such a tight hug and tell him that I love him.And I also wanted to call him out on being high but I didn't.I KNOW he was.
But I also realized he knows I know.And by the way he had his head down I could tell he was ashamed of it.That made me feel differently about it and the urge to confront him left.
Sometimes I forget that my son is in there still,underneath all the drugs.Sometimes the drugs are all I see,no,the drugs ARE all I have been seeing,not just sometimes,but all the time.
e_i_m said
Nov 29, 2016
I think this desire to know "the truth" is very common in al-anoners. I think that for me I used to think that if I knew "the truth" then something would change -- that my not knowing "the truth" was what stood in the way of things being okay somehow. I grew up with two alcoholic parents and life was very confusing due to broken promises, forgotten promises, shifting priorities, etc. I used to spy on my parents, mark their bottles, and give them the third degree to try to find "the truth". I carried this into my relationships with men as an adult -- i would snoop and question and try to find "the truth" -- and I was sure that if I knew it, something would just change. I now don't believe there really is such a thing as "the truth" and I don't believe that snooping or spying or asking why anybody does anything will get me anywhere. I've made this change thanks to al-anon -- I have my vision of life and my HP and other people have theirs, and all I can do is focus on myself and find happiness and peace through steps and HP and gratitude. What anybody else is or isn't doing isn't my business and I don't need to find "the truth", which I no longer even quite believe matters.
serenity47 said
Nov 29, 2016
Great post. I clearly remember badgering my AD about what she was doing, expressing my thoughts that she was lying which of course she was again and again and again. It was exhausting to say the least. I look back and think to myself what was I thinking!!Of course she was going to lie, of course it was going to start arguments, of course she was going to avoid me as much as possible . At the time , my motive was born out of incredible fear and desperation to save her life. I deluded myself into thinking she was gong to magically open up and suddenly say yes mom you are right and I will go immediatly and do what you say I need to do . I thought I had all the answers and thought it was my job to have all the answers . Not one thing I said, repeated over and over and over again, nor how many ways I phrased it, made a bit of difference at the time. The only thing it did was literally drive me into a state of sheer exhaustion and stress. It was incredibly difficult detaching from my child, excruciating actually but I had to do it to save my sanity. She found her way into recovery on her own and is making her way on her own. I don't like or approve of many choices she still makes but that's ok because she is now an adult and it is none of my business any longer. Some days I am better then others at staying on my side of the street. Be gentle with yourself. It takes time and healing to navigate . Hugs.
el-cee said
Nov 30, 2016
I love your awareness in your post and welcome. I can relate to the need to know and I believe its fear based. Believing if we know, then the solutions will reveal themselves and we can save our children from the life we perceive as dangerous, life threatening, painful in fact for me its the worst kind of life our children can have.
In reality, there is nothing we can do to prevent this journey, it doesnt belong to us to make the changes, its theirs. Our children when they are grown are making their own way and walking their own path, learning their own lessons. This life of addiction and alcoholism is scary to watch from the sidelines and being right in the middle of it is almost unbearable. Alanon has given me tools to cope with this. I now believe my son has a higher power working in his life and even if it looks horrendous to me the lessons are there for him and if I can keep out of it then my son will gain valuable assets that he needs. It goes wrong and is prolonged when I step in with my Mrs fixit hat on, I take away his lesson, his dignity and I reconfirm to him that I believe he does not have what it takes to sort it out and to help himself. Its wrong and its enabling the sorry conditions to continue to even worse outcomes.
I can trust that my son is right where he needs to be and that crisis's are learning opportunities, bigger than me and my own understanding of them. I also have to remember that my son has many assets that he has had from a very young age, he knows what to do and how to do it, he knows, so I cant go down the road of 'there is something wrong with him and that makes him not responsible' or 'he needs me' kind of self talk. I also know that the life he chooses to lead is never as bad as my imagination will invent.
He needs me to back off, not judge or try to solve, that to me is appropriate love and its the hardest love to give but its the right love to give. Ive been conditioned to think that being a Mother means I'm all powerful and its my job to fix, sort out, make better etc. Its been this thinking that has got me in trouble and led my relationship to become abusive and dysfunctional. Alanon gave me a brilliant gift, teaching me about enabling, detaching with love, its saved me and its gave me back a relationship with my son regardless of his drinking or not. I hope you can get back to meetings and get back into this amazing program, if you have children affected by this disease then its a lifeline.x
MeTwo2 said
Nov 30, 2016
I am causing arguments with him because of it.I don't understand why I feel I need for him to admit it.
for me the other flipside to this although it included much of the 'above .. i felt since i was being hurt by the addict in my life .. only the addict in my life could take away 'my hurt (too) .. it seemed to make sense to me until i realised if i waited for this person to make an amends to me or to change his life (without others in recovery) i would be waiting forever .. i also had to realise that trying to reason with my unreasonable addict ? would 'never lead 'me toward serenity or inner peace .. oy .. i was depending on an addict to fill me with love and hope (the very things we can only get through the fellowship by others who understand what it's like living with addiction) .. i very much needed a higher power . a power greater than myself alone and definitely greater (kinder with more loving understanding) than my addict .. by reasoning with others who understand instead we have a much better chance of being 'led to serenity and sanity .. (greater solutions)
KennyFenderjazz said
Nov 30, 2016
For me, the want for my qualifier to admit it was so I could have reassurance that I'm not crazy. She is a binger, and when she hits the bottle she can hold it together for a while, but I can tell something is wrong within 15-20 minutes after she has hit. I am almost always right in my experience.
But I don't want to believe it. And I don't want to have to think I am crazy. So I want to find that bottle.
Oh yeah, and if she hasn't hit all 750 ml of it yet, I can throw it away before she gets the rest. There is that as well. I know that once she has hit it, she will deny hitting it, and won't tell me that she has a bottle. Usually it's because she's half passed out before i ask her.
I finally had to get to the place where I know what I know, and that's all i get. I often look for it, but don't let it consume me. And if I don't find it, and she's passed out on the bed unable to speak at 7 o'clock in the evening, then she has probably hit the bottle. That keeps me from thinking I am crazy, and gets me to a place of compassion with consequences.
This is how it works for me. At least most of the time. Occasionally I am a mess, and do the whole "j'accuse!" thing. I try to keep to the progress, and don't beat myself up to bad for slips.
Something I have really been struggling with lately is feeling like I need for my son(adult son) to admit he has been using when he stops by.It's obvious to me that he's high,I already know he is,yet I still call him out on it,even though I already know he's going to deny it.
I am causing arguments with him because of it.I don't understand why I feel I need for him to admit it.
Could it be that it's not that I really am seeking the truth but instead I just want to be right?Is it that I already know that his using is going to most likely lead him back to jail and this is my shady,sneaky way of trying to convey that to him,hoping he will stop using since the cat is out of the bag,a form of manipulation and control?Or is it just my fear and anxiety getting the best of me?
I know that none of you can answer those questions for me.I guess I am trying to figure this out myself,understand my own motives in order to make changes.
Often times I did the same thing with my qualifiers, I have two. My self righteous, judgmental approach to their activity and the need for them to acknowledge I was right and they were wrong only led to them denying more and my being hypervigilent. Always looking for clues to prove my point. With detachment, I was able to put myself in a state of mind to always be prepared for they were active and respond to any interactions accordingly. I was able to lean into steps 1, 2 and 3 and turn things over to someone with my power than I. In the beginning, detachment let me handle the day to day things regarding myself rather than focusing on them and what they were or were not doing.
((Tessa B)) thanks for posting, keep coming back.
Tessa you already know..."Could it be that it's not that I really am seeking the truth but instead I just want to be right?" Knowing never ever told me I was right. It only told me I needed a lot of help to get "ME" out of the picture and when I didn't the picture was always ugly.
It's okay to let go and let God. Practice, practice, practice. ((((hugs))))
For me, I used to feel like I didn't trust my intuition, because my addict would deny it. manipulate their way around it. I wanted so desperately to believe them. I almost had to hear them to confess to know 100%. But I had to tell myself, if it looks like a duck, quakes like a duck... Does someone have to tell me its a duck?
I am glad you are trying to figure yourself out, and your actions. Keep working on you, it will get better.
I think for me it was not exactly validation I needed, but wanted to let the qualifier know
"Im not stupid, I know whats going" ...... linsc
I finally learned to let go.
I am a double-winner so once I started in Al-Anon and got a bit more clear-headed, I had to take a good, hard look at this and my motives. A huge part of me was deeply concerned as this was my child, one I gave birth to and did not want him to die from this disease. Having come to this realization that my concern was valid, my actions were not. In my 'let's get honest and look at this' process, I came to realize he is no different than I was before I came to recovery for my addictions - there is no way in the world I would have ever admitting I was using anything to my parents. And of course, I certainly lied to everyone about how much because that's what we do!!!
I had to accept that no matter what I asked, how I asked it, no matter my motive, he was not going to be honest with me. Dishonesty is a tool of self-preservation for addicts/alcoholics. That dishonesty starts from within and becomes easier than the truth - cold, hard facts are even disputed.
With my sponsor, I came to understood that most questions I asked led to arguments. So - I stopped asking them. It was harder than when I quit alcohol or cigarettes. I had no choice but to deploy long pauses and just fill that time with prayer as it was so new to me.
I felt I had a right to know, I felt I had a need to know and by golly - I was going to find out. Well - now I just stay with my own truth, never spout off my suspicions and let them do what they need to do - knowing that God (HP) doesn't have grandchildren. I slip at times and catch myself and apologize. My sons are both adult age - I really have no right to know what they are doing and have a huge history of non-disclosure with my own parents so ..... had to just let go and let God.
I love the way you are processing. I found it easier to attach from my AH than my sons - there is something about birthing them that made it lots harder but for me, I could only get peace in my brain by acting as if they were just another qualifier in my life instead of my flesh/blood! HTH - take what ya like and leave the rest.
I was the exact opposite. I could detach from my son because I dealt with it for soooooo long I was just tired. My AH although we had been together for 5 years when his disease became most evident we had only been married 5 months. With him it was OMG what have I done? I was determined I was going to whip him into shape. By golly. My son is 24 and he started when he was 13. By the time I got to Ala-non and learned the word detached, it was like someone gave me a gift. I was so over him and his using. I think it was a blessing because tbh I just didn't give a shi* anymore. I was D O N E. Thankfully, he moved in with his father when my AH hit the skids. He recently came back though because his probation officer told him it was here or a new apartment in the county jail. Now I can detach from him and him be here.
I like this answer.....I think my propensity to call people on their crap, or what I perceive as crap, is rooted in always calling my dad on his crap.
With that, it all comes back to me wondering if I am really crazy.....I have actually told friends in the past 'don't flipping lie to me!' because that is what I would always say to the alcoholic. They'd look at me like ....'ok, dude, relax Jim....'. It's turned into mundane stuff that doesn't affect me as well. Calling people on their 'happy' relationships when their was clearly a tension in the air...calling people out on their salaries when it's so obvious they don't make half that....calling people out on their life advice when they are not in a position to be giving life advice....
Am I crazy?....Is that what a happy relationships looks like?......Maybe he is really more successful than I think........I don't doubt the third one that's not really one you can hide.
It has me constantly questioning myself and everything i do..questioning my status....questioning my approach....the manipulation I suffered as a child/young-adult has me questioning what is real and what is perceived and it seems like I'm on a constant quest to find out.
My son popped in again today for only about 10 minutes,and I just felt so heartbroken,it hurt so deep down in my soul to see him so obviously wasted.He avoided eye contact,he kind of kept his head down too,and I just wanted to grab him and give him such a tight hug and tell him that I love him.And I also wanted to call him out on being high but I didn't.I KNOW he was.
But I also realized he knows I know.And by the way he had his head down I could tell he was ashamed of it.That made me feel differently about it and the urge to confront him left.
Sometimes I forget that my son is in there still,underneath all the drugs.Sometimes the drugs are all I see,no,the drugs ARE all I have been seeing,not just sometimes,but all the time.
I love your awareness in your post and welcome. I can relate to the need to know and I believe its fear based. Believing if we know, then the solutions will reveal themselves and we can save our children from the life we perceive as dangerous, life threatening, painful in fact for me its the worst kind of life our children can have.
In reality, there is nothing we can do to prevent this journey, it doesnt belong to us to make the changes, its theirs. Our children when they are grown are making their own way and walking their own path, learning their own lessons. This life of addiction and alcoholism is scary to watch from the sidelines and being right in the middle of it is almost unbearable. Alanon has given me tools to cope with this. I now believe my son has a higher power working in his life and even if it looks horrendous to me the lessons are there for him and if I can keep out of it then my son will gain valuable assets that he needs. It goes wrong and is prolonged when I step in with my Mrs fixit hat on, I take away his lesson, his dignity and I reconfirm to him that I believe he does not have what it takes to sort it out and to help himself. Its wrong and its enabling the sorry conditions to continue to even worse outcomes.
I can trust that my son is right where he needs to be and that crisis's are learning opportunities, bigger than me and my own understanding of them. I also have to remember that my son has many assets that he has had from a very young age, he knows what to do and how to do it, he knows, so I cant go down the road of 'there is something wrong with him and that makes him not responsible' or 'he needs me' kind of self talk. I also know that the life he chooses to lead is never as bad as my imagination will invent.
He needs me to back off, not judge or try to solve, that to me is appropriate love and its the hardest love to give but its the right love to give. Ive been conditioned to think that being a Mother means I'm all powerful and its my job to fix, sort out, make better etc. Its been this thinking that has got me in trouble and led my relationship to become abusive and dysfunctional. Alanon gave me a brilliant gift, teaching me about enabling, detaching with love, its saved me and its gave me back a relationship with my son regardless of his drinking or not. I hope you can get back to meetings and get back into this amazing program, if you have children affected by this disease then its a lifeline.x
I am causing arguments with him because of it.I don't understand why I feel I need for him to admit it.
by reasoning with others who understand instead we have a much better chance of being 'led to serenity and sanity .. (greater solutions)
for me the other flipside to this although it included much of the 'above .. i felt since i was being hurt by the addict in my life .. only the addict in my life could take away 'my hurt (too) .. it seemed to make sense to me until i realised if i waited for this person to make an amends to me or to change his life (without others in recovery) i would be waiting forever .. i also had to realise that trying to reason with my unreasonable addict ? would 'never lead 'me toward serenity or inner peace .. oy .. i was depending on an addict to fill me with love and hope (the very things we can only get through the fellowship by others who understand what it's like living with addiction) .. i very much needed a higher power . a power greater than myself alone and definitely greater (kinder with more loving understanding) than my addict ..
But I don't want to believe it. And I don't want to have to think I am crazy. So I want to find that bottle.
Oh yeah, and if she hasn't hit all 750 ml of it yet, I can throw it away before she gets the rest. There is that as well. I know that once she has hit it, she will deny hitting it, and won't tell me that she has a bottle. Usually it's because she's half passed out before i ask her.
I finally had to get to the place where I know what I know, and that's all i get. I often look for it, but don't let it consume me. And if I don't find it, and she's passed out on the bed unable to speak at 7 o'clock in the evening, then she has probably hit the bottle. That keeps me from thinking I am crazy, and gets me to a place of compassion with consequences.
This is how it works for me. At least most of the time. Occasionally I am a mess, and do the whole "j'accuse!" thing. I try to keep to the progress, and don't beat myself up to bad for slips.
Kenny