Reading some of these posts got me thinking. It really is important that we watch what we say around the A and how we say it. I haven't finished all of my CAL but I'm learning a lot from what I've read.
We get blamed for a lot. And then feel the need to stick up for ourselves and that just keeps the cycle going. The cycle I'm trying to escape right now.
I've been blamed for everything, including being the sole reason that they drink/drug.
I've been staying away, no contact. It just seems to be what's best for my kids and I right now. Laying low & it's keeping us all sane.
I know it can't go on like this forever though.
SO, when I do choose to pop my head back up, what are some phrases and techniques I can use? I know they're going to do a lot of finger pointing & I just don't care. I'll probably get blamed for "cutting them off" as well. I'm not, the phone works two ways.
Stuff like that. They leave everything in my court & then when I don't act accordingly, I'm _____________ (ungrateful, toxic, selfish..)
I've gotten to the point that I don't even stand up for myself anymore. What's the point? Why poke the bear?
I don't know if I'm getting my point across properly. I do want to be around my family but I have no idea how to handle the blame game.
Skorpi said
Nov 15, 2016
Have been struggling myself with that a lot lately. NOT saying what I am thinking may be resulting in some of my tension headaches, lol! And I do feel that sticking up for myself is pointless - it isn't as if I am going to change her mind - and keeps the cycle going.
This week, I am trying "I am sorry you feel that way." "That is not what I said" and "ok" "I am not going to discuss this now" is another current favorite.
Then, I leave the room or go about what I was doing.
So far what this has done for me is shorten the length of the conversation and helped me stay more balanced in my thinking. My A is more upset, but seems to calm down and return to normal after a couple hours of pouting and silent treatment.
I'm not at all certain that I have the right approach here for my situation, but at least I've stepped off the emotional roller coaster for a while.
lookingup said
Nov 15, 2016
It takes practice ,I'm currently using a lot of my tools today ,stateing clearly of my wants and needs ,this is a challenge for me also is being understood by my qaulifiers and saying what I mean in a nice way,or at least being heard clearly I have had to ask nicely to stop and listen to me plz without any interruptions ,and to plz not walk away when I'm talking to you in a nice way,voice.and stateing again in a nice voice that I have the floor now to let me finish with what I've got to say.....lots of practice this week,,,your doing great savage,love reading your threads......much I've learned from you...keep on a keeping on ,my sponsor always tells me,I love that to....((((sarahgee))))
Iamhere said
Nov 15, 2016
When I first came to Al-Anon, I was the all-knowing one with all the answers. I then kind of went to the opposite end of the spectrum as I was told if I wanted things to be different, I had to do different. I was actually told to start by doing things in a direct opposite fashion of 'normal'....for everything - which side of the bed, what I order I showered vs. coffee, etc.
So - my first course of action was not responding/reacting at all - tongue biting essentially. What I learned by stopping my part was they stopped tons sooner if/when I did not react/respond/answer. If pushed, I would just say, I really have nothing to add of value....
I never watched what I say around them, and still don't. I just stopped dancing completely. I then began to build my tool-set and got some suggested responses from Al-Anon. I retired from needing to be right and needing to be heard. I was heard in meetings and with my sponsor and that was enough for me at that point.
What I've come to 'see' in recovery is that when we change our steps, the dance stops or changes completely. I have a super-sized family and if there is gossip or ridicule happening, I quietly just get up and leave the room. I use JADE often. My family is large enough I can usually find a safe person to talk to or sit by. If not, I will get in my car and go home. I had to learn that I was not nearly as important as I thought I was (EGO) and it was easy and calmer to be one among many.
I speak my truth now when I desire. It's not about 'need' as speaking my truth to a crazy-making person is just going to multiply the craziness. The most important thing for me in the beginning was to regain my strength and my worth. I needed to love me and trust the program and just stop answering/responding to baited questions. It was culture shock for my family as I was always one who had the answers and/or very strong opinions and facts to support my opinions. When I just sat quietly or said, I need to think on that - they saw change but had no idea what was happening.
So - easy responses ....
- You may be right.
- I need to think on that.
- I see things a bit differently.
- My memories are a bit different.
- Hummmmmm.
- Yes.
- No.
- I'm still processing.
I love that our program suggest we talk to each other and 'reason' things out. This to me suggests that before I even consider a deep discussion with my qualifier, I really need to get some ESH so I am clear/concise with my needs, boundaries and detaching.
Calm Lady said
Nov 16, 2016
Coming into recovery, I thought recovering meant plainly speaking my truth in all circumstances. Finding my voice and speaking up loud!
To my relief, I soon discovered I was wrong. My first thing in had to do was keep my mouth shut and think! Not open it and spout out!
This was a massive life improver to me. I began to find peace.
el-cee said
Nov 16, 2016
I think detachment can be the whole staying away thing, I understand how that feels and space and time can be great healers. For me, I had to learn detaching with love quickly because distance or time away from my loved one isnt really an option for me. I dont believe it was ever a solution. so I learned the language but first I had to do the background work so that the language was meaningful and not patronising and forced if you know what I mean.
I had to learn that the blaming and name calling type of behaviour is the disease and is no reflection on me. I had to learn to love and trust myself enough to stop listening to any of that nonsense, so if name calling or blaming started I would state in few words that I dont want to be called names and i removed my body and ears from the room. I just stopped taking it. I used JADE a lot. Its not my job to reason with or change the minds of a sick thinker, its way too big for me so I just dont get hurt by it, thats my job.
I said things like, im sorry your feeling that way, Im sure you will work it out and stopped offering solutions, its not my job. for me this was a process and I didnt this without changing so many of my old thought processes first and it was kind of mostly linked in with learning about the disease and only then did compassion come.
Fooled said
Nov 16, 2016
I so needed this right now. As I am working hard in my own recovery and my RAH is celebrating 50 days sobriety tomorrow. I took on myself the role of the Benevolent Dictator. I was approached by a family member in my household that I had become succinct and sometimes brutally honest in some of my conversations. I felt when it came to making a decision or a response to a request I had to make a decision or a response right then and there and often my reign as Benevolent Dictator and my need to be honest and speak my truth in a holier than thou kind of way always ended badly and was self defeating. Thanks for the responses I am putting them in my tool box right now. I have noticed that I get a better response from my RAH as I started to "allow" him back into the decision making process regarding financial decisions and household decisions we are communicating better and there is less conflict. I am able to suggest something and I am able to take his response of I need to think about that and vice versa. I was a little ashamed of my Queen like role I had assumed, it was a definite eye opener when I realized my ego got the best of me. Thanks for the good stuff in this topic.
2HP said
Nov 16, 2016
I never have to give words so much power.... giving power away... but we do, right? My family also holds me excessively responsible for their emotions, their happiness and their misery too. This unhealthy belief gave me an illusion of power.... and then GUILT when I failed to deliver.
This is a perfect post for me as I am about to head out the door to visit my parents for the day. I'm leaning on the wisdom of step three and don't feel the need to do much more as step three is all about ACTING on my belief in Higher Power (step 2.)
I am blissed out from my morning meditation, talking and communing since awakening with Higher Power. The quote "in quietness and confidence will be your strength" is very true for me. My heart feels open and I am eager to express my love for my parents. I know that they FEEL the energy of my heart, whether open or closed. when it's closed, it stirs up their fears that I'm judging them and that's when they become defensive and snarky. I want to give them the dignity to live their life as they choose... "Live and let live" because we all long for love and acceptance.
I recall doing exactly as you are doing, not knowing how to respond to them and needing a few ideas. It certainly helps and yet for me today, it's more about attitude because human conduct is ever unreliable. My goal is to simply stay anchored in Higher Power.... Making the decision (fierce determination sometimes) to turn my will (my thoughts) and my life (my behavior) over to Higher Power and then leaving the outcome. When they're talking, it has worked very well to just pretend that I'm listening...in my head I'm saying the Serenity Prayer over and over.... they have no idea and the remarkable thing is..... the words that do come out of my mouth are "not me." Desiring Higher Power's Will brings grace I could never fashion on my own.
I try to find ways that I can be helpful while I am there. I am the first to set the table, do the dishes, clean out drawers, handle the recycling, mulch the garden, play piano for my dad, etc. I want my actions that I love them to speak LOUD.
Ill let you know how it goes, this is helpful "bookending" for me today, thank you (((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 16th of November 2016 10:36:08 AM
Bethany66 said
Nov 16, 2016
Wow, this entire thread has spoke right to my heart today. I especially hear you 2HP. What beautiful ESH. Your quote "in quietness and confidence will be your strength" is written now in my journal for safekeeping. It is going to be my mantra for the rest of the week. And your words about wanting your actions to speak love to them LOUD, are exactly what I want for myself with my parents, children and spouse. I know my AH has not felt heard so I am working on actively listening. I found myself tuning him out the other day and so I asked him to repeat what he had said because even though I responded, I have no idea what he said. I had to force myself to be honest and listen, even if it was about football and I couldn't care less about the game!!
Small acts done with great love.
sarahGee said
Nov 16, 2016
WOW!
Thank you all for your responses! I always learn so much from this group, so grateful for everyones willingness to share with us newbies.
I am in transition with my FOO and finding it really difficult because I don't have enough recovery under my belt to handle it with grace. The way that those who live the program act/react with their families, I want that.
To be able to hang out with them and not participate in "the dance". I still participate although slightly different than I did before, which is causing all of this upheaval for me.
The other day one of my A came into my store. Was drinking. I tried to keep the conversation light. A asked me something about my kids, didn't like the answer I gave. Turned and faced the wall, and sat there facing the wall freezing me out.
Old me would have JADE'd in a hot minute.
New me let them sit facing the wall. I asked once "you're upset, do you want to tell me why" - "no" and continued facing the wall.
I'm at work, so I can't leave, I just had to continue working around it. The more I didn't jump into the argument, the colder the freeze out became. The silence lasted a good long while.
In situations like that I have NO idea how to react! I'm stuck there, can't leave my store and there's someone making sure I'm uncomfortable in my own space.
I've been avoiding my family because I can't handle this stuff just yet. It still makes me angry, I still have the urge to want to get to the bottom of it. Also learning that there is no "bottom" there will always be the next thing I've done wrong in the next conversation.
I want to learn how to interact. Yes my ego sure needs a lot of work. I have to allow them to feel what they're feeling even if it angers me to the core.
I am not good at avoiding the dance. I still want to jump right in and defend myself.
El said
Nov 16, 2016
Really great thread for me. I think my focus for now is JADE. Not to JADE! I am a huge defender and explainer /over-explainer and explainer ad nauseam. For what? To have it disputed, denied, ridiculed? It is exhausting.
Thank you for all your comments; it helps so much!
2HP said
Nov 17, 2016
Sarah: "I have NO idea how to react! I'm stuck there..... still makes me angry....... still have the urge to want to get to the bottom of it...... there is no bottom......"
Look at this amazing growth!
Our literature says, THEY ACT AND WE REACT. Look at how you didn't react! It's a miracle... putting down the microscope and picking up the mirror to WATCH what is going on between your ears... even if it's a bunch of fireworks... and then wondering how to RESPOND to this. It's a miracle! (to me, a "miracle" is a shift or a change in thinking...... and you're doing it!)
We have been affected by insanity, we got sick too and developed these fears and reactions. In Al-anon we learn that our reactions are now OUR responsibility...... however they originated, it no longer matters.
Yesterday with my parents, there were triggers of course, Mom is not going to change. Me keeping my focus on Higher Power prevented me from going down the same road, falling into the same hole again and again, over and over. Mom said her usual things. I've had years of practicing restraint and pausing and still I could notice the reactions in my head. My brain just doing it's job of "re-minding" me of what is stored from the past... and my body tensing all over again. With years of practice, I just observed my internal reactions. And with God's grace, I did not react.
I'm not perfect, though. I considered saying something, twice! Both times, the phone rang, it happened TWICE. And I sat there recognizing God's divine intervention, lol
I love you God!!!!!!! Today I can see that what I considered saying to Mom would have hurt her... and me.
After a beautiful day of sitting in the park, watching the ducks and geese and children playing.... listening to Mom and Dad reminiscing, to all their stories... and going out to dinner (including Mom's usual drinks) we managed to exchange hugs and kisses when we parted. Pulling out of their driveway at the end of the day, I had peace in my heart, fully recognizing God's unfailing power. All I ever have to do is provide willingness.
Which is what I see YOU doing, Sarah.
So relax, easy does it. Your acceptance and your willingness are enough... miracles already!!
As an artist, I cannot help myself here as your words have provided a visual treat for me......... of your brother, one of God's own... "icing out" another.... while staring at a wall inside of an art gallery... this is a very interesting piece of art to ponder!!!
Our goal is recovery is to just do our best while playing our part in the "art."
sending you ripples of (((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 17th of November 2016 11:50:19 AM
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 17th of November 2016 12:09:04 PM
Reading some of these posts got me thinking. It really is important that we watch what we say around the A and how we say it. I haven't finished all of my CAL but I'm learning a lot from what I've read.
We get blamed for a lot. And then feel the need to stick up for ourselves and that just keeps the cycle going. The cycle I'm trying to escape right now.
I've been blamed for everything, including being the sole reason that they drink/drug.
I've been staying away, no contact. It just seems to be what's best for my kids and I right now. Laying low & it's keeping us all sane.
I know it can't go on like this forever though.
SO, when I do choose to pop my head back up, what are some phrases and techniques I can use? I know they're going to do a lot of finger pointing & I just don't care. I'll probably get blamed for "cutting them off" as well. I'm not, the phone works two ways.
Stuff like that. They leave everything in my court & then when I don't act accordingly, I'm _____________ (ungrateful, toxic, selfish..)
I've gotten to the point that I don't even stand up for myself anymore. What's the point? Why poke the bear?
I don't know if I'm getting my point across properly. I do want to be around my family but I have no idea how to handle the blame game.
This week, I am trying "I am sorry you feel that way." "That is not what I said" and "ok" "I am not going to discuss this now" is another current favorite.
Then, I leave the room or go about what I was doing.
So far what this has done for me is shorten the length of the conversation and helped me stay more balanced in my thinking. My A is more upset, but seems to calm down and return to normal after a couple hours of pouting and silent treatment.
I'm not at all certain that I have the right approach here for my situation, but at least I've stepped off the emotional roller coaster for a while.
So - my first course of action was not responding/reacting at all - tongue biting essentially. What I learned by stopping my part was they stopped tons sooner if/when I did not react/respond/answer. If pushed, I would just say, I really have nothing to add of value....
I never watched what I say around them, and still don't. I just stopped dancing completely. I then began to build my tool-set and got some suggested responses from Al-Anon. I retired from needing to be right and needing to be heard. I was heard in meetings and with my sponsor and that was enough for me at that point.
What I've come to 'see' in recovery is that when we change our steps, the dance stops or changes completely. I have a super-sized family and if there is gossip or ridicule happening, I quietly just get up and leave the room. I use JADE often. My family is large enough I can usually find a safe person to talk to or sit by. If not, I will get in my car and go home. I had to learn that I was not nearly as important as I thought I was (EGO) and it was easy and calmer to be one among many.
I speak my truth now when I desire. It's not about 'need' as speaking my truth to a crazy-making person is just going to multiply the craziness. The most important thing for me in the beginning was to regain my strength and my worth. I needed to love me and trust the program and just stop answering/responding to baited questions. It was culture shock for my family as I was always one who had the answers and/or very strong opinions and facts to support my opinions. When I just sat quietly or said, I need to think on that - they saw change but had no idea what was happening.
So - easy responses ....
- You may be right.
- I need to think on that.
- I see things a bit differently.
- My memories are a bit different.
- Hummmmmm.
- Yes.
- No.
- I'm still processing.
I love that our program suggest we talk to each other and 'reason' things out. This to me suggests that before I even consider a deep discussion with my qualifier, I really need to get some ESH so I am clear/concise with my needs, boundaries and detaching.
To my relief, I soon discovered I was wrong. My first thing in had to do was keep my mouth shut and think! Not open it and spout out!
This was a massive life improver to me. I began to find peace.
I think detachment can be the whole staying away thing, I understand how that feels and space and time can be great healers. For me, I had to learn detaching with love quickly because distance or time away from my loved one isnt really an option for me. I dont believe it was ever a solution. so I learned the language but first I had to do the background work so that the language was meaningful and not patronising and forced if you know what I mean.
I had to learn that the blaming and name calling type of behaviour is the disease and is no reflection on me. I had to learn to love and trust myself enough to stop listening to any of that nonsense, so if name calling or blaming started I would state in few words that I dont want to be called names and i removed my body and ears from the room. I just stopped taking it. I used JADE a lot. Its not my job to reason with or change the minds of a sick thinker, its way too big for me so I just dont get hurt by it, thats my job.
I said things like, im sorry your feeling that way, Im sure you will work it out and stopped offering solutions, its not my job. for me this was a process and I didnt this without changing so many of my old thought processes first and it was kind of mostly linked in with learning about the disease and only then did compassion come.
I never have to give words so much power.... giving power away... but we do, right? My family also holds me excessively responsible for their emotions, their happiness and their misery too. This unhealthy belief gave me an illusion of power.... and then GUILT when I failed to deliver.
This is a perfect post for me as I am about to head out the door to visit my parents for the day. I'm leaning on the wisdom of step three and don't feel the need to do much more as step three is all about ACTING on my belief in Higher Power (step 2.)
I am blissed out from my morning meditation, talking and communing since awakening with Higher Power. The quote "in quietness and confidence will be your strength" is very true for me. My heart feels open and I am eager to express my love for my parents. I know that they FEEL the energy of my heart, whether open or closed. when it's closed, it stirs up their fears that I'm judging them and that's when they become defensive and snarky. I want to give them the dignity to live their life as they choose... "Live and let live" because we all long for love and acceptance.
I recall doing exactly as you are doing, not knowing how to respond to them and needing a few ideas. It certainly helps and yet for me today, it's more about attitude because human conduct is ever unreliable. My goal is to simply stay anchored in Higher Power.... Making the decision (fierce determination sometimes) to turn my will (my thoughts) and my life (my behavior) over to Higher Power and then leaving the outcome. When they're talking, it has worked very well to just pretend that I'm listening...in my head I'm saying the Serenity Prayer over and over.... they have no idea and the remarkable thing is..... the words that do come out of my mouth are "not me." Desiring Higher Power's Will brings grace I could never fashion on my own.
I try to find ways that I can be helpful while I am there. I am the first to set the table, do the dishes, clean out drawers, handle the recycling, mulch the garden, play piano for my dad, etc. I want my actions that I love them to speak LOUD.
Ill let you know how it goes, this is helpful "bookending" for me today, thank you (((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 16th of November 2016 10:36:08 AM
Small acts done with great love.
Thank you all for your responses! I always learn so much from this group, so grateful for everyones willingness to share with us newbies.
I am in transition with my FOO and finding it really difficult because I don't have enough recovery under my belt to handle it with grace. The way that those who live the program act/react with their families, I want that.
To be able to hang out with them and not participate in "the dance". I still participate although slightly different than I did before, which is causing all of this upheaval for me.
The other day one of my A came into my store. Was drinking. I tried to keep the conversation light. A asked me something about my kids, didn't like the answer I gave. Turned and faced the wall, and sat there facing the wall freezing me out.
Old me would have JADE'd in a hot minute.
New me let them sit facing the wall. I asked once "you're upset, do you want to tell me why" - "no" and continued facing the wall.
I'm at work, so I can't leave, I just had to continue working around it. The more I didn't jump into the argument, the colder the freeze out became. The silence lasted a good long while.
In situations like that I have NO idea how to react! I'm stuck there, can't leave my store and there's someone making sure I'm uncomfortable in my own space.
I've been avoiding my family because I can't handle this stuff just yet. It still makes me angry, I still have the urge to want to get to the bottom of it. Also learning that there is no "bottom" there will always be the next thing I've done wrong in the next conversation.
I want to learn how to interact. Yes my ego sure needs a lot of work. I have to allow them to feel what they're feeling even if it angers me to the core.
I am not good at avoiding the dance. I still want to jump right in and defend myself.
Really great thread for me. I think my focus for now is JADE. Not to JADE! I am a huge defender and explainer /over-explainer and explainer ad nauseam. For what? To have it disputed, denied, ridiculed? It is exhausting.
Thank you for all your comments; it helps so much!
Sarah: "I have NO idea how to react! I'm stuck there..... still makes me angry....... still have the urge to want to get to the bottom of it...... there is no bottom......"
Look at this amazing growth!
Our literature says, THEY ACT AND WE REACT. Look at how you didn't react! It's a miracle... putting down the microscope and picking up the mirror to WATCH what is going on between your ears... even if it's a bunch of fireworks... and then wondering how to RESPOND to this. It's a miracle! (to me, a "miracle" is a shift or a change in thinking...... and you're doing it!)
We have been affected by insanity, we got sick too and developed these fears and reactions. In Al-anon we learn that our reactions are now OUR responsibility...... however they originated, it no longer matters.
Yesterday with my parents, there were triggers of course, Mom is not going to change. Me keeping my focus on Higher Power prevented me from going down the same road, falling into the same hole again and again, over and over. Mom said her usual things. I've had years of practicing restraint and pausing and still I could notice the reactions in my head. My brain just doing it's job of "re-minding" me of what is stored from the past... and my body tensing all over again. With years of practice, I just observed my internal reactions. And with God's grace, I did not react.
I'm not perfect, though. I considered saying something, twice! Both times, the phone rang, it happened TWICE. And I sat there recognizing God's divine intervention, lol
I love you God!!!!!!! Today I can see that what I considered saying to Mom would have hurt her... and me.
After a beautiful day of sitting in the park, watching the ducks and geese and children playing.... listening to Mom and Dad reminiscing, to all their stories... and going out to dinner (including Mom's usual drinks) we managed to exchange hugs and kisses when we parted. Pulling out of their driveway at the end of the day, I had peace in my heart, fully recognizing God's unfailing power. All I ever have to do is provide willingness.
Which is what I see YOU doing, Sarah.
So relax, easy does it. Your acceptance and your willingness are enough... miracles already!!
As an artist, I cannot help myself here as your words have provided a visual treat for me......... of your brother, one of God's own... "icing out" another.... while staring at a wall inside of an art gallery... this is a very interesting piece of art to ponder!!!
Our goal is recovery is to just do our best while playing our part in the "art."
sending you ripples of (((peace)))
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 17th of November 2016 11:50:19 AM
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 17th of November 2016 12:09:04 PM