I plan on telling people that truth of what happened to our family, if they ask. A councilor says this is a terrible legacy of shame. There's a little something wrong with that idea.
Lucy125 said
Nov 2, 2016
I think I know what's wrong with that idea. There's a "stigma" associated with alcoholism. How many people kill themselves with lack of exercise, too much stress or too much food. If that councilor knew someone that killed themselves with food addiction or stress, would that be a shame to their "legacy.."?
How about all the people that killed themselves when they weren't feeling well, and didn't go to a doctor, is that ruining their legacy and now it's a part of the family history???
hotrod said
Nov 2, 2016
Hi Lucy I do not agree with the Councilor's evaluations. I believe that since alcoholism is a dreadful "disease " there is no shame in having this disease. I tell the truth and am not feeling shame.
Lucy125 said
Nov 2, 2016
She's , MS in psychology, is not trained in addiction, so maybe she doesn't know. I think we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves. That was part of my religious upbringing. I look at excessive alcohol just like excessive food or excessive stress. It's a form of not taking care of yourself. DRiving the car too fast is a form of not taking care of yourself and taking chances. Or how about not using a CPAP machine when you need one? All those things cause people to die.
In fact, the Al anon program is about taking care of yourself, isn't it??? To a large degree, that's what AA is ll about.
We all have these self destructive tendencies to some degree.
maryjane said
Nov 2, 2016
"Shame to their legacy...." Wow, that is a mouthful of ego. Tell the truth. That is a better legacy. Honesty. There is no shame in a genetic disease.
Mattie said
Nov 3, 2016
Does the counsellor maybe mean that "this is a terrible legacy of feeling shame, which it would be good to break free from"? That would make sense to me.
milkwood said
Nov 3, 2016
I agree with Mattie, not talking allows shame to develop. Telling the truth leads to understanding and compassion amongst those that can feel that way. ((((hugs))))
Taraxacum said
Nov 3, 2016
I also read it as a terrible legacy of feeling shame - one that would benefit from some truth. Maybe it would be helpful to clarify with them. Did they mean to say alcoholism is shameful? I imagine the answer would help me decide if that therapist was a good fit for me.
Lucy125 said
Nov 3, 2016
I did clarify with her, again she's not trained in addiction. I used her for helping me with anxiety and depression. She meant that he did not get help in time in a sense he made poor choices. I agree that he made poor choices. He had PTSD and used alcohol to medicate, because he had a genetic predisposition, he was caught in a quagmire. He did call for help, but the damage was done. So now it's all a part of our family "history." I guess giving people permission in the family to be like him is what she is getting at.
I don't agree with that. I think alcohol is a self destructive behavior, just like over eating. I know a lady that is about 200 pounds overweight and developed diabetes. If she passed away from diabetes, nobody would say it was part of her legacy that she killed herself with food. So why is it different with alcohol? She had a genetic predisposition to gain weight and over eat. At some point she learned poor coping skills, (which we all have to some degree) Some people don't eat when they are stressed and don't have a genetic predisposition to getting fat. Anyway, I think it's a foolish argument to make alcohol somehow different.
There isn't anything wrong with food. It's the misuse of food. I know a lady that is a compulsive over exerciser and she looks awful. It's not the same as suicide which this counselor seems to think alcoholism is suicide. I disagree, I think it's the misuse of something which can result in death. If the over exerciser dropped dead of a heart attack, would anyone think there was a stigma? Believe me I am expecting that at any time. This woman looks terrible.
I found a lot of lying and hiding with addiction. I know many people that lied that their loved one's cause of death.
Iamhere said
Nov 3, 2016
Anne - my experience is that people who don't understand addiction don't understand addiction. It is classified by the AMA as a disease for a reason. I am very guarded with information I share about anyone. It tends to lead me down a never-ending cycle of explaining and I just don't have the capacity to keep saying the same things trying to make others who can't understand - do so.
You have a right to your truth as you feel necessary to share it. The best gift of recovery is we are all given freedom of choice - to share, to not share, to respond, react or not do so. When I was new and my mind was jumbled, I often would just say, I don't want to talk about this now. Or, I'm not ready to talk about this yet. You and your qualifier also have a right to privacy - you don't owe anybody anything.
You are correct that there is a lot of lying and hiding with addiction. My parents never shared anything about our addictive gene pool....I found out through their siblings (aunts and uncles). I do not know the thinking or reasons and it doesn't matter....it would not have changed my course. With each uncovered secret, I have gently inquired IF I needed to know more. They are aging and so am I, so I am working on a full medical history for my boys and their children. I never ask why they didn't share any more - I can see the shame and pain on their faces - I forgave them a long time ago and they forgave me.
So - use your program, sponsor and tools and I believe in time, we get exactly what we need when we need it!! (((Hugs)))
Sportgear said
Nov 3, 2016
It's mentioned that Alcoholism is a disease. Most do not understand why it was categorized as a disease. The justification was written due to insurance companies not wanting to pay for behavioral issues but are required to pay if categorized as a disease. I personally do not believe it's a disease but rationalized as so for payment purposes.
Lucy125 said
Nov 4, 2016
Recent research says that alcoholism is a complex interaction between genes and environment. Here's what that means: some people have a tolerance and like the feeling that alcohol gives them. If the spiritual problem, and emotional problem did not exist, that person would not have developed alcoholism. What responsibility does the alcoholic have? That is HP's to judge. I am not smart enough to sort that out.
In my case, there were rigid family roles. NObody abused drugs or alcohol when I was growing up. I was put in the role of the scapegoat, and my brother was the golden child. Nothing was ever his fault. He was never held accountable for his messes, by my mother. My father to an extent tried to allow consequences for the Golden child, but he was mostly over ruled.
As a teenager, I was depressed and the family went into get help to "FIX" me. They were appalled when they were told the problem included them. Once again, my dad tried to help. My mom on the other hand went into denial. I was dropped off at the psychologist alone to "fix" myself. My brother disappeared. He had a tremendous fear of talking to psychologists. He went into denial saying that psychology was just bogus and I need to "fix" myself.
My dad became the bad guy, according to my brother.
Iamhere said
Nov 4, 2016
Anne - both of my parents were ACOA (Adult Children of Alcoholics). My upbringing was very similar - we had strict rules and were held to very, very high standards. If we got B(s) in school, it was not good enough. It was almost militant.
I too was the black sheep. My parents did not believe in mental health issues at all, so there was never, ever any desire to seek outside help. We actually were expected to never discuss our issues outside of the home. As far as my parents were concerned, there weren't any issues in the home. They were in denial and we were robotic. I was the only girl, the rebel and the youngest.
I was the first to leave and left with full blown addiction issues. I believe I had addictive wiring in my brain well before I ever took a drink. That first drink gave me a whole new feeling and freedom and I never looked back. If one drink felt that good, more would be better. I began a career of more is better - more alcohol, more drugs, more money, more sex, etc.
I spun out of control in record speed. I have no doubt that if I were to drink again, I would die. I do not possess the ability to stop once I have started, and while controlled drinking could work for others, it's of no use to me.
I choose to accept that it's a disease. I choose to treat my disease and work on recovery. I choose to accept others as they are and work on me. My parents disowned me and we were fragmented for years. I was cut off from all of my family and not invited to family events, etc. We've since been able to mend fences and things are good. It took humility on all sides to understand relationships are good/bad based on all participants. Never, ever is one person at fault for the demise or the success - it takes two to get along or not get along.
I love that we learn in recovery to use JADE - Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. What a waste of time that was for me for so long!! It truly does not matter to me if this is/is not a disease, I just know that recovery helps me be a better version of me than before.
(((Hugs))) - keep coming back! Help, Healing and Hope are always available.
Lucy125 said
Nov 4, 2016
My mom is now 90. I have been sharing the Al Anon materials with her. She's getting relief. She feels sad her son is dying. She's in assisted living home and has memory problems. She can't attend meetings because of mobility issues and some cognitive problems. She knows about most of it, and she is able to read the Al Anon books and materials. We read them together and discuss how we can help ourselves get weel. It's never too late to learn. We've been helping each other along. We cry together sometimes. I told her it wasn't her fault. She tried as best she could. People have their choices and we can't make it for them.
We are sad that brother's three kids are a mess, but we are grateful, my two kids are okay. We pray together for those kids.
Iamhere said
Nov 4, 2016
Super share Anne - made me smile. I love that you are bringing comfort to your mother and using the program/tools to do so. Truly warmed my heart. I'm not sure how large your town is, but we have and will take meetings to those who can't get out/around when asked. Just a thought. I've also always heard whenever 2 or more are together, it's a meeting - so you're doing great in your efforts.
Sending you continued positive thoughts and prayers....keep coming back!
Lucy125 said
Nov 4, 2016
Town is medium size. I will ask at the meeting if they can go to her.
Desperateinnyc said
Nov 6, 2016
I recently attended a family program at my abf's rehab just before he got out. I had no idea what to expect, I was scared, confused as to why I was even going, went thru all these emotions right before..but I went..and I have to say I cannot think of something else I've done in my life, that was more rewarding..to me. Maybe it was the timing..it was what I needed right when I needed it. It wasn't about him, as much as it was about me, and the disease of addiction and understanding it as such. It was about how I can help myself, and how everything I've been feeling, is NORMAL in this situation. It helped me realize some things about myself and why I was even involved in this crazy world with him. Anyway..we watched a film, I think it was called Jellinik..a dr who was an addict, made this movie after deciding he was going to prove addiction was not a disease..and in doing so, what he proved to himself, was that it was in fact a disease.
The movie gets rather scientific and truth be told I would need to watch a few times to really grasp the physiology of addiction and the brain. But it was fascinating. Yes addiction is a disease of emotions..but the brain is where it lives. So in looking at it this way, and accepting it as a disease, I wondered too, why all the shame?? No shame is diabetes, cancer, MS..yet there r no ribbons for addiction, no 5k runs for addiction..and it makes me mad..we have come a long way as a society in seeing it as a disease, but you see how much further we have to go.
I would say, from what you said about the counsellor's reaction, that that was not a professional opinion, but perhaps a personal one. You never know what he or she may have also dealt with and where their own sense of shame over this came from. So I would just follow what your heart and gut says to do..perhaps if more people fought the stigma of shame about addiction, and shared more and learned more, it would become less shameful..I hope anyway! Good luck to you...
Lucy125 said
Nov 6, 2016
WEll one thing is for sure. I would encourage people with substance abuse problems to go to a substance abuse counselor. Some people just don't know that much about the problem.
I plan on telling people that truth of what happened to our family, if they ask. A councilor says this is a terrible legacy of shame. There's a little something wrong with that idea.
I think I know what's wrong with that idea. There's a "stigma" associated with alcoholism. How many people kill themselves with lack of exercise, too much stress or too much food. If that councilor knew someone that killed themselves with food addiction or stress, would that be a shame to their "legacy.."?
How about all the people that killed themselves when they weren't feeling well, and didn't go to a doctor, is that ruining their legacy and now it's a part of the family history???
She's , MS in psychology, is not trained in addiction, so maybe she doesn't know. I think we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves. That was part of my religious upbringing. I look at excessive alcohol just like excessive food or excessive stress. It's a form of not taking care of yourself. DRiving the car too fast is a form of not taking care of yourself and taking chances. Or how about not using a CPAP machine when you need one? All those things cause people to die.
In fact, the Al anon program is about taking care of yourself, isn't it??? To a large degree, that's what AA is ll about.
We all have these self destructive tendencies to some degree.
Does the counsellor maybe mean that "this is a terrible legacy of feeling shame, which it would be good to break free from"? That would make sense to me.
I did clarify with her, again she's not trained in addiction. I used her for helping me with anxiety and depression. She meant that he did not get help in time in a sense he made poor choices. I agree that he made poor choices. He had PTSD and used alcohol to medicate, because he had a genetic predisposition, he was caught in a quagmire. He did call for help, but the damage was done. So now it's all a part of our family "history." I guess giving people permission in the family to be like him is what she is getting at.
I don't agree with that. I think alcohol is a self destructive behavior, just like over eating. I know a lady that is about 200 pounds overweight and developed diabetes. If she passed away from diabetes, nobody would say it was part of her legacy that she killed herself with food. So why is it different with alcohol? She had a genetic predisposition to gain weight and over eat. At some point she learned poor coping skills, (which we all have to some degree) Some people don't eat when they are stressed and don't have a genetic predisposition to getting fat. Anyway, I think it's a foolish argument to make alcohol somehow different.
There isn't anything wrong with food. It's the misuse of food. I know a lady that is a compulsive over exerciser and she looks awful. It's not the same as suicide which this counselor seems to think alcoholism is suicide. I disagree, I think it's the misuse of something which can result in death. If the over exerciser dropped dead of a heart attack, would anyone think there was a stigma? Believe me I am expecting that at any time. This woman looks terrible.
I found a lot of lying and hiding with addiction. I know many people that lied that their loved one's cause of death.
You have a right to your truth as you feel necessary to share it. The best gift of recovery is we are all given freedom of choice - to share, to not share, to respond, react or not do so. When I was new and my mind was jumbled, I often would just say, I don't want to talk about this now. Or, I'm not ready to talk about this yet. You and your qualifier also have a right to privacy - you don't owe anybody anything.
You are correct that there is a lot of lying and hiding with addiction. My parents never shared anything about our addictive gene pool....I found out through their siblings (aunts and uncles). I do not know the thinking or reasons and it doesn't matter....it would not have changed my course. With each uncovered secret, I have gently inquired IF I needed to know more. They are aging and so am I, so I am working on a full medical history for my boys and their children. I never ask why they didn't share any more - I can see the shame and pain on their faces - I forgave them a long time ago and they forgave me.
So - use your program, sponsor and tools and I believe in time, we get exactly what we need when we need it!! (((Hugs)))
Recent research says that alcoholism is a complex interaction between genes and environment. Here's what that means: some people have a tolerance and like the feeling that alcohol gives them. If the spiritual problem, and emotional problem did not exist, that person would not have developed alcoholism. What responsibility does the alcoholic have? That is HP's to judge. I am not smart enough to sort that out.
In my case, there were rigid family roles. NObody abused drugs or alcohol when I was growing up. I was put in the role of the scapegoat, and my brother was the golden child. Nothing was ever his fault. He was never held accountable for his messes, by my mother. My father to an extent tried to allow consequences for the Golden child, but he was mostly over ruled.
As a teenager, I was depressed and the family went into get help to "FIX" me. They were appalled when they were told the problem included them. Once again, my dad tried to help. My mom on the other hand went into denial. I was dropped off at the psychologist alone to "fix" myself. My brother disappeared. He had a tremendous fear of talking to psychologists. He went into denial saying that psychology was just bogus and I need to "fix" myself.
My dad became the bad guy, according to my brother.
I too was the black sheep. My parents did not believe in mental health issues at all, so there was never, ever any desire to seek outside help. We actually were expected to never discuss our issues outside of the home. As far as my parents were concerned, there weren't any issues in the home. They were in denial and we were robotic. I was the only girl, the rebel and the youngest.
I was the first to leave and left with full blown addiction issues. I believe I had addictive wiring in my brain well before I ever took a drink. That first drink gave me a whole new feeling and freedom and I never looked back. If one drink felt that good, more would be better. I began a career of more is better - more alcohol, more drugs, more money, more sex, etc.
I spun out of control in record speed. I have no doubt that if I were to drink again, I would die. I do not possess the ability to stop once I have started, and while controlled drinking could work for others, it's of no use to me.
I choose to accept that it's a disease. I choose to treat my disease and work on recovery. I choose to accept others as they are and work on me. My parents disowned me and we were fragmented for years. I was cut off from all of my family and not invited to family events, etc. We've since been able to mend fences and things are good. It took humility on all sides to understand relationships are good/bad based on all participants. Never, ever is one person at fault for the demise or the success - it takes two to get along or not get along.
I love that we learn in recovery to use JADE - Don't Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain. What a waste of time that was for me for so long!! It truly does not matter to me if this is/is not a disease, I just know that recovery helps me be a better version of me than before.
(((Hugs))) - keep coming back! Help, Healing and Hope are always available.
My mom is now 90. I have been sharing the Al Anon materials with her. She's getting relief. She feels sad her son is dying. She's in assisted living home and has memory problems. She can't attend meetings because of mobility issues and some cognitive problems. She knows about most of it, and she is able to read the Al Anon books and materials. We read them together and discuss how we can help ourselves get weel. It's never too late to learn. We've been helping each other along. We cry together sometimes. I told her it wasn't her fault. She tried as best she could. People have their choices and we can't make it for them.
We are sad that brother's three kids are a mess, but we are grateful, my two kids are okay. We pray together for those kids.
Sending you continued positive thoughts and prayers....keep coming back!
Town is medium size. I will ask at the meeting if they can go to her.
The movie gets rather scientific and truth be told I would need to watch a few times to really grasp the physiology of addiction and the brain. But it was fascinating. Yes addiction is a disease of emotions..but the brain is where it lives. So in looking at it this way, and accepting it as a disease, I wondered too, why all the shame?? No shame is diabetes, cancer, MS..yet there r no ribbons for addiction, no 5k runs for addiction..and it makes me mad..we have come a long way as a society in seeing it as a disease, but you see how much further we have to go.
I would say, from what you said about the counsellor's reaction, that that was not a professional opinion, but perhaps a personal one. You never know what he or she may have also dealt with and where their own sense of shame over this came from. So I would just follow what your heart and gut says to do..perhaps if more people fought the stigma of shame about addiction, and shared more and learned more, it would become less shameful..I hope anyway! Good luck to you...
WEll one thing is for sure. I would encourage people with substance abuse problems to go to a substance abuse counselor. Some people just don't know that much about the problem.