I have been lurking here for over a year, and thank you all for all of the wisdom, humor and love exchanged.
I was in Al-Anon many years ago, then fell away as circumstances changed. 25+ years ago met DH, who had then been in recovery for a decade...but 3 years ago went out again. 1.5 years ago he stopped drinking again, and rejoined AA wholeheartedly. I returned to Al-Anon. Sounds nice, right?
Every day - usually beginning around dawn, when we get up, I am berated for how lousy my program is. I don't go to enough meetings. I am selfish, self-seeking, self-centered and think only of myself. I don't work an adequate program, am working too slowly, don't "get it", am very, very sick. He has been lifted to another dimension and I am dragging him down with my negativity...and therefore threatening his sobriety. I talk too much. I don't have a filter to prevent me from saying the wrong thing. I have never made any amends to him. (I have, actually, but he doesn't think they're done well enough to qualify; he also seems to forget that amends are made for ourselves.) He is not physically violent, but relatively recently begun telling me how badly he wanted to punch me, etc. A year ago he started calling me names like "selfish b****" and "moron". When I object, he says he's just speaking the truth. His program, is, of course, the exemplar of THE stellar AA member - I've seldom hear him say anything positive about anyone else's program.
While I didn't expect rose-petals and singing cherubs, I was unprepared for sobriety to be worse than his drinking and engender this holier-than-thou attitude. I didn't draw boundaries in his early sobriety 19 months ago, and starting to do so now seems impossible. There's no reason for me not to kick him out - the house and car are paid for by me and completely in my name; I am the breadwinner while he collects disability for a very bad back.
But...he can be a wonderful human - generous, thoughtful, helpful, and I see that many of his temper-tantrums coincide with serious back pain after a very long and risky surgery just 3 months ago, and he's been struggling with pain for many years. It's hard not to appreciate his good points or have compassion for what he's been enduring for a long time.
I'm not a complete joy by any means. I have lots and lots of work to do and have a sponsor, read, go to meetings, etc. in order to help me with my program...but I'm not progressing quickly. Does anyone have any similar or analogous situations which may offer some ESH and clarity? My own reaction right now seems to be sitting on my bathroom floor crying, which I suspect is not really very constructive or recommended.
Thank you all for what you've helped me learn so far, and I appreciate you reading all of this!
Denizen
-- Edited by hotrod on Tuesday 11th of October 2016 12:55:59 PM
Thurrayya the Khajiit said
Oct 11, 2016
Hi Denizen,
While I cannot relate to the situation of what my ex ABF would have been like sober (I only got that for two weeks while he was in the process of moving out and then the awful thing he said a week later, which I will get to), I can relate to the holier-than-thou attitude.
Basically, he barred me from even trying al-anon until it got so bad I had already kicked him out. He contends all programs are cults and that you have to recover from the program. So at some point he goes to therapy a couple times, gets meds, and then stops going to therapy and claims he's better than me simply because he went to school-sponsored therapy twice. I can't afford therapy and now that I'm in al-anon, I know it was exactly what I was needing. To hear other people's stories and realize that I'm not crazy that a lot of other people are living it or have lived it.
The thing about being the breadwinner I can totally relate to. I was the only money-maker in the household so he could go to school. But then he was kicked out and I was still the only one working until I made him get a job, with him promising to not spend it all on booze (he still would and then would still beg for booze money but I had finally put my foot down and said that I wouldn't even "loan" him money because he would hardly ever pay me back for booze...) Anyhow, the thing is, they can be very wonderful people when it's convenient for them. They can also use that "wonderfulness" against you by saying they did this or that for you so why can't you do that thing you're not comfortable doing for them.
One thing I noticed is that if they start thinking awful things about you when they're not getting their way when drunk is that they start to believe those things about you when they're sober. Granted, I'm sort of convinced that now that my ex ABF is out, he is drinking again as he solicited me for sex last week and then when I refused told me that was how I like sex and implied that I'm a cold human. Then the next day called me a disease and the only reason he needed meds. (probably because I put the rest of his crap on the back patio for him to get when convenient for him, didn't want "break-up sex", and won't let him visit "his" cat that came from my best friend's mom and I have taken care of completely the whole time we've had him).
I don't know what you'll get out of my ramblings, but I hope there is something in there that can help. I do know my ex-ABF could be just as awful sober as he was drunk and that he thought he was better than me just because he's seen a therapist a couple times. The main thing is to keep coming back. Everyone here is in a similar boat and wants to do nothing more than support you. Keep going to your meetings. It's the most calming thing I've ever done. (I'm dreading having to miss in a couple weeks for a prior commitment, even if it involves my other therapy of thrill rides). I hope you are getting a lot out of yours.
*hugs* you're in the right place.
hotrod said
Oct 11, 2016
Welcome Denizen, I'm so glad that you took the time to introduce yourself and pleased that you have benefited from reading the board on and off. I am sorry that you are continually being subjected to such an negative vibes.
Although I have not personally experienced a similar situation as you are enduring, I have had a sponsee, who has described behavior from her partner that you are experiencing. We decided that "Sitting on the bathroom floor and crying" is not an Al-Anon tool. So that we talked about the best possible response to the situation.
Gratitude and asset lists were very important to this process. Making a gratitude list every morning as well as an asset list reinforced the fact that there were many pluses within and could be acknowledged. Next we decided on working a 10th step at the end of each day. By reviewing the day looking at what went on, how she had handled it -negatively or positively, and owning our part in any disruption was very important to this process . This also helped to see what was going on- on a daily basis. After doing this for a few days, the next step we decided was to continue doing the assets and gratitude lists and the tenth step and move forward a little bit further on and to "validate" ourselves when attacked.
This does not mean arguing with the person who is attacking, or defending yourself, it simply means stating your truth. For example, after the onslaught of how" terrible you are" you could simply say I hear you but I see it differently. I see that I am working very hard and changes are happening on the inside. Then you can recite your assets and the results of your 10th step and simply walk away -- no more sitting on the floor crying. Then possibly you two can discuss the best possible way to interact.
If he continues to say that he feels like punching you than that would cause me concern and I would have to say I cannot listen to this verbal abuse any longer and any continued threats about punching me will prompt me to get an order of protection.
These are all just suggestions as we don't give us advice. However, this did work for my sponsee that is why I am passing it on.
Keep on keeping on. It is progress not perfection, we seek and do not engage
Iamhere said
Oct 11, 2016
Hey Denizen - welcome to MIP! Glad that you came forward and joined us. Also glad to hear that you are working a program - the best part about recovery is it is personal and we do get to work it at our necessary pace for best results. Trying to do anything in the hopes of supporting, helping, convincing, etc. another person - especially recovery - is not recommended.
I now live with just my AH, so things have calmed down tons. When I arrived at Al-Anon, I lived with him + my 2 sons who also qualify for the other side of the table. Needless to say, it is difficult to live with this disease - no matter if one is in AA or in denial. What I learned is that emotional maturity stops at the point of conception. So - in my case, I was living with 3 teen/pre-teens. They were sassy/saucy and just generally nasty negative people!!! I took every phrase, word, name, statement and more personal. Whether they were in recovery (been in/out - boys) or not, they were generally unhappy in their own skin. It takes a long while to find emotional balance in recovery - either side of the table.
My sponsor gave me an assortment of assignments as Betty suggests (gratitude lists, asset lists) as well as asset lists for them. She also helped me to see that when they were coming at me, and taking my inventory, it really was not about me - it was about them. So - she suggested I try a different reaction - either walk away with my head high or just let them drone on and respond with, "You appear to be unhappy today, how can I be of service?"
She taught me that if I changed my response, more than likely that would change the exchange. It did and it does work. I have also sat still at times, and then asked, "Are you finished now? I really need to use the bathroom." The changes came from the program, a sponsor and a willingness in me to try new responses and to not take personally their words, actions, etc.
I am sorry that you are reduced to tears - that hurts my heart for you. You are worth way more than that, but my words mean nothing. It is within you to find that truth and to live that truth. Once I stopped reacting to their tantrums, they found other ways to release their own chaos. I often said it was like entertainment for them to just puke out all the insanity and blame in my direction just to see my reactions. I then learned I allowed this and if I changed one thing - my reaction - I could take my power back!
Keep coming back - there is help and hope in recovery. Choose you - leave him to his program and work yours - as you need to....
Jerry F said
Oct 11, 2016
Aloha Suburban D and welcome to the family. Just part of the description (small part) is that they are self centered and egotistical and if that fits the picture you are living with you're okay and he is using the insanity of the disease to try and move you one way or the other...power tripping is what it is described at from time to time and everyone including us will do it for lack of doing something saner.
This is a disease...a real class A certified disease so you are not measuring up to another sick persons disease. Sounds right? That is how it looked to me on the journey getting here.
You are not here to work "his" program he must work "his" program and if he would care to spell out what "his" program is, how it works and what the consequences should be for people other than himself you might take note. Ask him if it would be okay to rate or judge his program as he spells it out or better still as his sponsor spells it out. Would he allow you to attend open AA meetings with him and make comments.
I often laugh when listening to a "king baby" burp from inside my own AA meetings. Yes I am a double and full time member of both Al-Anon and AA and I get more in my recovery because of the involvement of Al-Anon than if not.
Form your Al-Anon group and participate often...cause this works when we work it whether they approved or not. Keep coming back. (((((hugs)))))
MissM said
Oct 11, 2016
I believe if it were me, I would draw a boundary that said, we don't discuss our programs with each other, at all. I made that boundary when I still lived with my A partner, around any topic that caused him to be unkind or very annoying towards me. So, in the end, there was a very small list of allowable topics! I would just state "I won't discuss this with you because it doesn't benefit either of us" and repeat it ad infinitum. Passionless repetitive replies seem to be a good way of stopping repeated abusive behaviours I have learned. (in the absence of drunkenness/rage/violence anyway).
I'm with Betty on pointing out that threats of violence will be met with legal protection because that's just intimidation and abuse and disguising it as part of his program and as 'truth telling" is actually kind of disturbing. Part of your program is to honor and protect yourself so, if he won't respect your right to not be called names or threatened, what other tools can you employ?
Also, welcome Glad you posted.
pinkchip said
Oct 11, 2016
Speaking for self and being sorta blunt and practical, I would start with some serious boundaries along the lines of:
"I am not participating in this discussion."
"This is unacceptable. Take your own inventory, not mine."
"I am not your verbal punching bag and you will treat me with respect or we will not interact"
Then walk out. I read what he is doing as domestic violence that is escalating and it is completely inexcusable. Right now it seems like bad emotional abuse that is on the cusp of physical.
Please set boundaries and look out for your safety. This includes not letting him victimize you to the point your esteem is squashed and you thinking you deserve this. You don't and I dont care what problem he has with his back or how emasculated he feels about his role/condition. It's abuse. Not ok.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 11th of October 2016 07:02:31 PM
hiraeth said
Oct 11, 2016
You guys are so cool.
I love reading what you write.
Cheers
Suburban Denizen said
Oct 12, 2016
hiraeth just said it all. ALL of the answers contributed to my tool box, and I appreciate the concrete, actionable suggestions very much.
This morning was the usual unpleasant interaction, with my flaws being vehemently listed. I had only minutes before qualifier awake to read your responses on my phone, but remembered much of what was suggested here...my gratitude list (already strongly recommended by my sponsor) is reviewed every day, and while I had not written out a list of assets, I had begun thinking of them, and as I listened to my inventory being taken I thought about those assets. I didn't really respond to his criticisms, simply nodded. I didn't cry or raise my voice. I would have been more pleased with myself had I left the room, but chickened out, thinking of the storm that would provoke. Instead, I thought of a passage from "In All Our Affairs" - a scenario in which a share suggests imagining that the qualifier is on the other side of a window of a psychiatric institution. You can see his lips moving, but cannot hear what he's saying...yet he's in a hospital, sick, and therefore you have compassion for his turmoil.
I have been concerned about where the verbal abuse was leading as I saw the escalation move to him speaking of physical retaliation for my perceived faults, but wondered if I was being overly dramatic. (After all, sitting on the bathroom floor crying is not exactly constructive or realistic.) I appreciate the validation of your posts - maybe I'm not all that crazy - this could be a prelude to violence. I will get some cash, necessary papers, etc., together and keep them in an easily accessible place, and have arranged with a friend in a gated community to serve as an emergency shelter if necessary.
There's so much I could list that I learned from all of you, but it would go on and on. Instead, I'll just thank you all for making me feel so much less alone and inadequate, and thank my HP that you're here.
With gratitude,
Denizen.
Iamhere said
Oct 12, 2016
So glad that YOU were able to use tools and find peace Denizen - keep coming back!!
I have been lurking here for over a year, and thank you all for all of the wisdom, humor and love exchanged.
I was in Al-Anon many years ago, then fell away as circumstances changed. 25+ years ago met DH, who had then been in recovery for a decade...but 3 years ago went out again. 1.5 years ago he stopped drinking again, and rejoined AA wholeheartedly. I returned to Al-Anon. Sounds nice, right?
Every day - usually beginning around dawn, when we get up, I am berated for how lousy my program is. I don't go to enough meetings. I am selfish, self-seeking, self-centered and think only of myself. I don't work an adequate program, am working too slowly, don't "get it", am very, very sick. He has been lifted to another dimension and I am dragging him down with my negativity...and therefore threatening his sobriety. I talk too much. I don't have a filter to prevent me from saying the wrong thing. I have never made any amends to him. (I have, actually, but he doesn't think they're done well enough to qualify; he also seems to forget that amends are made for ourselves.) He is not physically violent, but relatively recently begun telling me how badly he wanted to punch me, etc. A year ago he started calling me names like "selfish b****" and "moron". When I object, he says he's just speaking the truth. His program, is, of course, the exemplar of THE stellar AA member - I've seldom hear him say anything positive about anyone else's program.
While I didn't expect rose-petals and singing cherubs, I was unprepared for sobriety to be worse than his drinking and engender this holier-than-thou attitude. I didn't draw boundaries in his early sobriety 19 months ago, and starting to do so now seems impossible. There's no reason for me not to kick him out - the house and car are paid for by me and completely in my name; I am the breadwinner while he collects disability for a very bad back.
But...he can be a wonderful human - generous, thoughtful, helpful, and I see that many of his temper-tantrums coincide with serious back pain after a very long and risky surgery just 3 months ago, and he's been struggling with pain for many years. It's hard not to appreciate his good points or have compassion for what he's been enduring for a long time.
I'm not a complete joy by any means. I have lots and lots of work to do and have a sponsor, read, go to meetings, etc. in order to help me with my program...but I'm not progressing quickly. Does anyone have any similar or analogous situations which may offer some ESH and clarity? My own reaction right now seems to be sitting on my bathroom floor crying, which I suspect is not really very constructive or recommended.
Thank you all for what you've helped me learn so far, and I appreciate you reading all of this!
Denizen
-- Edited by hotrod on Tuesday 11th of October 2016 12:55:59 PM
While I cannot relate to the situation of what my ex ABF would have been like sober (I only got that for two weeks while he was in the process of moving out and then the awful thing he said a week later, which I will get to), I can relate to the holier-than-thou attitude.
Basically, he barred me from even trying al-anon until it got so bad I had already kicked him out. He contends all programs are cults and that you have to recover from the program. So at some point he goes to therapy a couple times, gets meds, and then stops going to therapy and claims he's better than me simply because he went to school-sponsored therapy twice. I can't afford therapy and now that I'm in al-anon, I know it was exactly what I was needing. To hear other people's stories and realize that I'm not crazy that a lot of other people are living it or have lived it.
The thing about being the breadwinner I can totally relate to. I was the only money-maker in the household so he could go to school. But then he was kicked out and I was still the only one working until I made him get a job, with him promising to not spend it all on booze (he still would and then would still beg for booze money but I had finally put my foot down and said that I wouldn't even "loan" him money because he would hardly ever pay me back for booze...) Anyhow, the thing is, they can be very wonderful people when it's convenient for them. They can also use that "wonderfulness" against you by saying they did this or that for you so why can't you do that thing you're not comfortable doing for them.
One thing I noticed is that if they start thinking awful things about you when they're not getting their way when drunk is that they start to believe those things about you when they're sober. Granted, I'm sort of convinced that now that my ex ABF is out, he is drinking again as he solicited me for sex last week and then when I refused told me that was how I like sex and implied that I'm a cold human. Then the next day called me a disease and the only reason he needed meds. (probably because I put the rest of his crap on the back patio for him to get when convenient for him, didn't want "break-up sex", and won't let him visit "his" cat that came from my best friend's mom and I have taken care of completely the whole time we've had him).
I don't know what you'll get out of my ramblings, but I hope there is something in there that can help. I do know my ex-ABF could be just as awful sober as he was drunk and that he thought he was better than me just because he's seen a therapist a couple times. The main thing is to keep coming back. Everyone here is in a similar boat and wants to do nothing more than support you. Keep going to your meetings. It's the most calming thing I've ever done. (I'm dreading having to miss in a couple weeks for a prior commitment, even if it involves my other therapy of thrill rides). I hope you are getting a lot out of yours.
*hugs* you're in the right place.
Welcome Denizen, I'm so glad that you took the time to introduce yourself and pleased that you have benefited from reading the board on and off. I am sorry that you are continually being subjected to such an negative vibes.
Although I have not personally experienced a similar situation as you are enduring, I have had a sponsee, who has described behavior from her partner that you are experiencing. We decided that "Sitting on the bathroom floor and crying" is not an Al-Anon tool. So that we talked about the best possible response to the situation.
Gratitude and asset lists were very important to this process. Making a gratitude list every morning as well as an asset list reinforced the fact that there were many pluses within and could be acknowledged. Next we decided on working a 10th step at the end of each day. By reviewing the day looking at what went on, how she had handled it -negatively or positively, and owning our part in any disruption was very important to this process . This also helped to see what was going on- on a daily basis. After doing this for a few days, the next step we decided was to continue doing the assets and gratitude lists and the tenth step and move forward a little bit further on and to "validate" ourselves when attacked.
This does not mean arguing with the person who is attacking, or defending yourself, it simply means stating your truth. For example, after the onslaught of how" terrible you are" you could simply say I hear you but I see it differently. I see that I am working very hard and changes are happening on the inside. Then you can recite your assets and the results of your 10th step and simply walk away -- no more sitting on the floor crying. Then possibly you two can discuss the best possible way to interact.
If he continues to say that he feels like punching you than that would cause me concern and I would have to say I cannot listen to this verbal abuse any longer and any continued threats about punching me will prompt me to get an order of protection.
These are all just suggestions as we don't give us advice. However, this did work for my sponsee that is why I am passing it on.
Keep on keeping on. It is progress not perfection, we seek and do not engage
I now live with just my AH, so things have calmed down tons. When I arrived at Al-Anon, I lived with him + my 2 sons who also qualify for the other side of the table. Needless to say, it is difficult to live with this disease - no matter if one is in AA or in denial. What I learned is that emotional maturity stops at the point of conception. So - in my case, I was living with 3 teen/pre-teens. They were sassy/saucy and just generally nasty negative people!!! I took every phrase, word, name, statement and more personal. Whether they were in recovery (been in/out - boys) or not, they were generally unhappy in their own skin. It takes a long while to find emotional balance in recovery - either side of the table.
My sponsor gave me an assortment of assignments as Betty suggests (gratitude lists, asset lists) as well as asset lists for them. She also helped me to see that when they were coming at me, and taking my inventory, it really was not about me - it was about them. So - she suggested I try a different reaction - either walk away with my head high or just let them drone on and respond with, "You appear to be unhappy today, how can I be of service?"
She taught me that if I changed my response, more than likely that would change the exchange. It did and it does work. I have also sat still at times, and then asked, "Are you finished now? I really need to use the bathroom." The changes came from the program, a sponsor and a willingness in me to try new responses and to not take personally their words, actions, etc.
I am sorry that you are reduced to tears - that hurts my heart for you. You are worth way more than that, but my words mean nothing. It is within you to find that truth and to live that truth. Once I stopped reacting to their tantrums, they found other ways to release their own chaos. I often said it was like entertainment for them to just puke out all the insanity and blame in my direction just to see my reactions. I then learned I allowed this and if I changed one thing - my reaction - I could take my power back!
Keep coming back - there is help and hope in recovery. Choose you - leave him to his program and work yours - as you need to....
Aloha Suburban D and welcome to the family. Just part of the description (small part) is that they are self centered and egotistical and if that fits the picture you are living with you're okay and he is using the insanity of the disease to try and move you one way or the other...power tripping is what it is described at from time to time and everyone including us will do it for lack of doing something saner.
This is a disease...a real class A certified disease so you are not measuring up to another sick persons disease. Sounds right? That is how it looked to me on the journey getting here.
You are not here to work "his" program he must work "his" program and if he would care to spell out what "his" program is, how it works and what the consequences should be for people other than himself you might take note. Ask him if it would be okay to rate or judge his program as he spells it out or better still as his sponsor spells it out. Would he allow you to attend open AA meetings with him and make comments.
I often laugh when listening to a "king baby" burp from inside my own AA meetings. Yes I am a double and full time member of both Al-Anon and AA and I get more in my recovery because of the involvement of Al-Anon than if not.
Form your Al-Anon group and participate often...cause this works when we work it whether they approved or not. Keep coming back. (((((hugs)))))
I'm with Betty on pointing out that threats of violence will be met with legal protection because that's just intimidation and abuse and disguising it as part of his program and as 'truth telling" is actually kind of disturbing. Part of your program is to honor and protect yourself so, if he won't respect your right to not be called names or threatened, what other tools can you employ?
Also, welcome
Speaking for self and being sorta blunt and practical, I would start with some serious boundaries along the lines of:
"I am not participating in this discussion."
"This is unacceptable. Take your own inventory, not mine."
"I am not your verbal punching bag and you will treat me with respect or we will not interact"
Then walk out. I read what he is doing as domestic violence that is escalating and it is completely inexcusable. Right now it seems like bad emotional abuse that is on the cusp of physical.
Please set boundaries and look out for your safety. This includes not letting him victimize you to the point your esteem is squashed and you thinking you deserve this. You don't and I dont care what problem he has with his back or how emasculated he feels about his role/condition. It's abuse. Not ok.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Tuesday 11th of October 2016 07:02:31 PM
I love reading what you write.
Cheers
This morning was the usual unpleasant interaction, with my flaws being vehemently listed. I had only minutes before qualifier awake to read your responses on my phone, but remembered much of what was suggested here...my gratitude list (already strongly recommended by my sponsor) is reviewed every day, and while I had not written out a list of assets, I had begun thinking of them, and as I listened to my inventory being taken I thought about those assets. I didn't really respond to his criticisms, simply nodded. I didn't cry or raise my voice. I would have been more pleased with myself had I left the room, but chickened out, thinking of the storm that would provoke. Instead, I thought of a passage from "In All Our Affairs" - a scenario in which a share suggests imagining that the qualifier is on the other side of a window of a psychiatric institution. You can see his lips moving, but cannot hear what he's saying...yet he's in a hospital, sick, and therefore you have compassion for his turmoil.
I have been concerned about where the verbal abuse was leading as I saw the escalation move to him speaking of physical retaliation for my perceived faults, but wondered if I was being overly dramatic. (After all, sitting on the bathroom floor crying is not exactly constructive or realistic.) I appreciate the validation of your posts - maybe I'm not all that crazy - this could be a prelude to violence. I will get some cash, necessary papers, etc., together and keep them in an easily accessible place, and have arranged with a friend in a gated community to serve as an emergency shelter if necessary.
There's so much I could list that I learned from all of you, but it would go on and on. Instead, I'll just thank you all for making me feel so much less alone and inadequate, and thank my HP that you're here.
With gratitude,
Denizen.