I know I am classic codependent. I have such a terribly hard time discussing things with my AH. I guess in the past he has always found a way to make me feel horrible for any feelings I have or things I bring up that hurt my feelings. I end up apologizing to him for something before the talk is over. I hold stuff in, until I can't and then I have a total meltdown, usually involving anger, sadness, frustration...you get the picture. It has always been difficult for me to broach sensitive subjects. I don't like any discord. And, I always lose the battle that I had no intention of starting.
If that make any sense, it is a lead in to my current dilemma.
So, based on little tidbits of information I have fed my AH lately, I am convinced that he is blacking out while drinking. He remembers very little after some tipping point. At that tipping point he accidentally breaks things, says horrible things to me, tries desperately to pick fights by being so insulted by some innocuous thing I have said, argues with the neighbors, drives off in either his truck or our golf cart, leaves the stove on, starts to cook and then ruins the dinner, delays meals and generally makes life at home a nightmare.
The other day (on a sober day) he found a book I had purchased in the Getting Them Sober series, concerning separating. He asked if I was leaving and I said no. He said, the book says it is about separating. I said it is about that, but it is also more than that. I wasn't ready to discuss it with him yet.
I really want to discuss with him that the drinking to the point of blacking out/ passing out is no longer something I can live with peaceably. I am not asking anything from him I just want him to know that I am no longer comfortable at home when he is drinking. At this point and time I am not ready to abandon my life, my home and my marriage, but I am at a place where I am seriously searching for a way to live peaceably in my home. I am not sure if I will be successful or not. His drinking is having a profound affect on me.
The last time I filled in some of the things that he had done during a black out he was shocked. I am not entirely sure if he even believes it to be the truth. I think he believes I am stretching the truth when in reality I only told him a few of the events that transpired. I want to tell him some of the things he did in his last black out on Sunday. Maybe it would shock him again. But, it is the right way to handle it? I think I would want to know how I was behaving when I was not in my right mind, but I am not him. He may NOT want to know. And does it help his situation or not? I admit, I want it to shock him in to not drinking so much. So is that controlling? Probably.
I know we don't offer advice, but any one's personal experience and how they handled it would be appreciated. Has talking to an alcoholic about how their drinking is affecting you ever made an iota of difference in the situation? Has talking to an alcoholic about the things they say and do during a black out ever made one iota of difference? Is it worth the risk to bring these things out of my head and into the light? I am so tired of the elephant in my living room.
Today is my Face to Face meeting and I am so in need of it.
Iamhere said
Sep 27, 2016
(((Bethany))) - so glad you have you F2F meeting today - hope it brings you the renewing feeling they tend to bring me. In my experience, any thing I did or said about the disease when it was/is active was never heard, heard accusingly, defended, justified, explained away or I was called labeled - nagging, over-dramatic, drama-queen, and way worse/more.
There was not one single incident where I was able to reach mine and/or make a difference. What I am finding with my active son is when he starts the conversations, he hears 'better'. We've had two conversations in the last few days and I am quite certain he's not convinced his life is an issue, but he's not debating, screaming, fighting back to my thoughts as he has in the past. So - for me - no way I have ever found to be heard when the disease is active. I used to wait for moments of coherency and try and it was just pointless. The denial of the disease is active even when the substances are set aside for short periods of time.
I've heard it all about my literature, my meetings, etc. I just QTIP....I had to find a way through recovery to have my peace/joy no matter if they were active/not active. Positive Thoughts sent your way!
Calm Lady said
Sep 27, 2016
Sorry you have got this stress to deal with.
In my experience with AH it is not a good idea to mention anything to the A as it will all be twisted around back at you. The disease has to deny everything to the A so the defence mechanisms set in. It is usually the one who mentioned the issue who ends up upset, frustrated and exhausted.
I learnt to leave it alone. To protect myself. The disease will not believe the truth and will launch an attack against anyone trying to speak the truth.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Tuesday 27th of September 2016 11:24:05 AM
tucker said
Sep 27, 2016
Thank you Calm Lady, IamHere, and all al-anon-ers who are teaching me this wisdom. Every time I check this board, I read something that I need to hear!
I'm not dealing with an alcoholic but with some behavior that feels very much like that of an Alcoholic. I am learning the wisdom of LEAVING IT ALONE. Protecting myself should be my first priority, and I can see that my efforts to "talk" will backfire on me.
There are safe places for me to express my feelings, and I do journal almost obsessively when I need to get clear on my feelings. But talking to the people who are trapped in toxic thinking is not the way.
Calm Lady said
Sep 27, 2016
Hi Tucker
Thank you for your share. I also use this method in all my affairs. A great relief to me - and probably to everyone I know!!
Minding my own business works so well. I also step away from people trapped in toxic thinking. I cannot change them, even if it was my business to try and do do! Which it isn't.
I love love love having boundaries.
I enjoy journalling too. A joy and healthy relief.
Jerry F said
Sep 27, 2016
My former deceased sponsor still is spiritually active going around touching others as he touched me. My complaining years were very very hard on me and my attitude until I met him thru a former sponsor. One of the things he impressed upon me which stuck the first time I heard it was "No one and nothing has the power to hurt you without your participation". The answer to the question "What do I do"? was "Stop it"!! and so I did and found lots of time I could use to be good to myself. How simple..."Stop it"!!
What followed in the lessons were the simple re-understandings that made my listening and practices much easier to arrive at and use in my daily life. I started to see my alcoholic/addict wife truthfully...as she was...an alcoholic/addict very sick person with a brain injured by mind and mood altering chemicals and so I stopped trying to be logical with an illogical condition. I fell back on the slogan, "Keep it simple" and when that didn't work even the next slogans were "when in doubt....don't" that master of them all for me, "LET GO...LET GOD". When I did that process and more I release my alcoholic/addict wife over to a power much more great than Jerry F and in time the woman who was my alcoholic/addict wife got clean and sober and because a metaphor from my Higher Power to use in my own recovery. Humility...being teachable which is one of the tools I bring with me here to read, listen and learn from others. Mahalo Piha to my Miracles in Progress Family and the Al-Anon Family Groups. Thank you God. ((((hugs))))
Jill said
Sep 27, 2016
It's so good you attend meetings.
In my experience, it's not lack of information that keeps people active in their addiction. Yet we all try to get through to them with the words that will finally change their life. Until we realize deep inside we didn't cause it, and we can neither control nor cure it.
I found a life in attending alanon and really working it (slowly), regardless of others' behaviors.
My focus has really tightened to where it should have been all along. Good old hindsight.
Bethany66 said
Sep 27, 2016
Thanks all for sharing your experience. I think I already knew that talking to him wouldn't get me anywhere but down. I like/dislike that Jerry F had his "complaining years" because that really struck a chord with me. I want my "complaining years" to end now. It always comes back to detaching, which is such a hard concept to grasp sometimes. I know it always goes back to Letting go and letting God.
YARNCRAZY said
Sep 27, 2016
In 25 yrs of being with my almost XAH, i can truthfully say that nothing i told him about his behavior, nothing he went through[court,police,rehab,car crashes,beating me and verbally, emotionally abusing me etc etc] has made ANY DIFFERENCE to him and the drinking. quit shoveling up after that elephant in your room,take care of yourself and maybe leave this jungle. Right now, my almost xah is virtually unable to take care of himself,going to lose the house and hasnt done anything to save himself from a box in skid row.
gotta go..got a job nterview..hugs to u.
milkwood said
Sep 27, 2016
I needed to reach a point where I knew what I could do for myself. It felt kind of empowering!
I gave up trying to change my husband and started to change my circumstances instead. One word that I did learn to use very rarely, if ever, was the word 'you'. I started to keep my words and focus on me, on my needs and peace of mind.
So where as I used to say something to the effect of 'when you were rude to me last night it hurt me.' I changed words for action and would simply move into our spare bedroom on the grounds that I really don't want to share a bed with someone who is rude and smells of booze.
I would imagine myself saying 'this is because' but actually I rarely said anything. My actions spoke more clearly than my words.
Your first paragraph makes perfect sense to me - hey ho! We keep on learning!!!
e_i_m said
Sep 27, 2016
I used to beg my alcoholic parents to stop drinking and to try to make them understand the effect their drunken behavior had on me. I used the classic "if you loved me, you'd quit drinking" from about age 5 onwards. They both died of alcoholism and never stopped drinking; so that appeal had zero impact on them (of course, it led me to the conclusion that they didn't love me since they wouldn't do the only thing I wanted from them). I was always too scared (in the same co-dependent ways you list in the first post - that's me to a tee!) to ever bring it up with boyfriends/husband, bc I thought they'd leave me and I'd never find anyone else.
I have a friend who is an alcoholic. When we were first becoming friends, he blacked out a couple of times after neighborhood parties (where he was totally jolly and fun -- the life of the party); after the parties ended, he and I would often hang out together and he would tell me his tales of woe about loneliness or he'd tell me about his big plans for a restaurant -- it was never awful or violent - it was either fun or he was sad -- but we'd spend HOURS talking. I would sometimes reference our convos the following day and he would say that he didn't remember any of it after a certain point, because he had blacked out. I would then say to him at the next party -- hey, are you sure you want to keep drinking? and he absolutely did want to keep on. So... that's my experience (which offers no strength or hope, sorry).
One of the ODAT readings that is a real zinger to me every time I read it talks about if we were being recorded when we were harranguing our loved ones, would we like how we sounded? I think it uses the term "fishwife". My answer to that question if I like how I sound for myself is no. I wonder if you talked to him about it when he was sober and asked him if he wanted you to record him the next time he was drunk - since it sounds like he sort of appreciated what you were telling him but also sort of didn't believe it. I don't know if that's got any potential for helpfulness or if it would make things worse. I have another friend who records EVERYTHING on his phone because he is paranoid and a drug addict and thinks everyone is out to get him and it's very annoying, but he's doing it without asking anyone, he just puts the phone in peoples faces.
jocelgp said
Sep 28, 2016
The last time I talked with my husband about the drinking problem in our life, it was meant for me not for him. Something happened which led to this talk, because of that I have to ask myself what do I do for myself? I sort of went to "silence" first so I can hear myself, so I can hear God in me. I also listened back to everything I read from Al-anon and what I heard from others. Then I went back to myself, my beliefs, my values. When I thought that I will be ok no matter what the consequences be, when I believed I can be strong that was the time I talked with my husband. I just felt I need to let him know how I felt about his drinking and that I am to do something in me/for me (not him) about it for my own sake. I just felt I need to let him know that I am "letting go", not trying to control nor manipulate his drinking. I did not talk to him with the intention of telling him what his drinking is doing to himself or that he should do something for my sake. I just told him that it's something I really could not accept in my life and that we are both free to do what we think is best for ourselves. I don't know if he understood, accepted or his real take on it but it doesn't really matter. What mattered most is that I felt empowered and not trapped.
Tossed Salad said
Sep 28, 2016
I have been in your shoes. Since I am a talker, I tried to reason with my exAH about his disease for years. In return I always got denial, blame, shame...lots of negative feedback. It drove me nuts. I just wanted to reason with him. It made no logical sense that he could not hear me. From many F2F meetings and meetings with my counselor, I finally heard what I needed which was that he is sick. Alcoholism is a disease and we can't cure it. And as long as his disease is active, he will never hear me. His thinking is sick. His brain is sick. It is not logical. It defies reason. I finally accepted these facts and stopped trying to talk with him about it. I realized it was an effort in futility that only upset me and disrupted my serenity. This was a hard lesson for me to learn (yes I am stubborn-LOL!) but was very freeing once I accepted it. I stopped myself each time I wanted to talk to him about his drinking and reminded myself that his brain is sick and he will not hear me. I began to feel much better when I stopped trying to figure out a new way to say things, to find a way to get through to him and just let him be. That was detachment for me and it was one of the many gifts which I received from this program.
This was not an easy habit for me to break, so go easy on yourself if try it. It takes practice. It is a hard habit to break but yields much serenity. I wish you well!
el-cee said
Sep 28, 2016
'Has talking to an alcoholic about how their drinking is affecting you ever made an iota of difference in the situation? Has talking to an alcoholic about the things they say and do during a black out ever made one iota of difference? Is it worth the risk to bring these things out of my head and into the light? I am so tired of the elephant in my living room.'
In my experience, no, no and yes if it makes you feel better.
Discussing anything with an active alcoholic is like speaking English to someone who only speaks Chinese and then expecting to be heard and even understood and then even changing things with this pointless exchange. Its a complete waste of your time and energy and the motives behind your attempt is most likely trying to control or change his behaviour. Of course his memory is poor, all drinkers memories are poor, their brains are being attacked by a poison regularly. Im sorry to sound so blunt this must be devastating for you to live with. You may be driven by fear, you want him to listen, he cant, you want him to change, he can only do this when the pressure gets worse than the drinking.
So, any conversation that you have with him to get him to change is likely to be enabling the disease to continue because when someone else is watching their health and behaviour and actions and worrying and fretting then this helps them relax within their disease because you are providing them with a false sense of securtiy, someone is watching over them, you. Detaching with Love is the best tool I could suggest, learning about taking your eyes completely off him and how this is his best chance. When he is rambling on repeating himself dont listen anymore, gently leave the room, dont put yourself through it. Dont tidy any of his mess or help him in anyway live more comfortably within the prison of this disease because this helps the disease thrive. Its all in Alanon, meetings, sponsor, reading.
Bethany66 said
Sep 28, 2016
Thank you all so much for your honest shares. I cannot thank you enough for not just telling me to quit being a whiner and put on my big girl panties!
I do realize that talking to him about this is futile. I can see how this all goes, the patterns and the denial and defense of the disease. There is no way I am going to change his mind, when he is not in his right mind to begin with.
This week he is sobers so far. I think his new theory is to only drink on the weekends (Friday through Sunday). He is trying to control his drinking and I am grateful for his effort and grateful for sober days. They remind me of what was and what on occasion, can be. But I know it can be over in the crack of a screw top or the pull of a cork screw. I also now these sober days will be used to support his belief that he doesn't have a problem. And for him, that is what it is. But it definitely confirms to me that I have a problem. And I am in need of healing and recovery. And that is why I hang out here and my F2F meetings.
Thank you again for sharing your ESH. It is one of the priceless gifts of this program.
MeTwo2 said
Sep 28, 2016
I know I am classic codependent. I have such a terribly hard time discussing things with my AH. I guess in the past he has always found a way to make me feel horrible for any feelings I have or things I bring up that hurt my feelings.
So, based on little tidbits of information I have fed my AH lately, I am convinced that he is blacking out while drinking. He remembers very little
found for me talking to them or trying to reason wasn't going to lead either of us toward serenity or sanity .. (clarity) .. they weren't even In their mind let alone their Right mind ..
talking to others in face to face meetings ? yes helpful .. much better chance of being led there .. to a much better place in my mind (more clarity) they aren't blacking out ..
my guy was a meth addict .. they were trying to do Anything to jump Out of their mind (skin too) .. course I was trying to Jump out of mine too .. and into theirs .. It wasn't my sanest
choice .. I was so filled with hurt (resentments) I couldn't see clear .. trying to reason with them (especially when using) was a big piece of what brought me through the doors '
of alanon .. feeling crazy .. (even more confused than I already was) ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:22:28 AM
Freetime said
Sep 28, 2016
Dear Bethany, I have been somewhat where you are and send you prayers. I also was never one to be open about my feelings of fear and anger with alcoholic behavior. I could never think of a good way to say it. Pouring out my feelings about the drinking did no good. But I did experience a measure of success when my late AH was at a point where he was open to some feedback.
After a serious seizure with injuries and hospitalization, I tried to get him to contact the Chemical Dependency Program, and he refused. He denied that he was an alcoholic, but said, "Watch my behavior," which to me meant he was open to some changes. So I took the opportunity, to spell out a couple of behaviors that had been driving me nuts: (1) Playing music very loudly (at night, at family gatherings, etc.), even when I asked as politely as I could to turn it down, and (2) "belligerent" behavior, e.g., being overly argumentative in family gatherings and acting like a jerk to the servers in restaurants.
In consultation with my daughter, she and I wrote down the specific behaviors he was doing and what he should do instead. I shared that with him once he was home from the hospital. -Now, I'll admit, we went way too far! I wasn't in Alanon at the time, and didn't know about releasing control. My daughter and I even wrote him a script for what he should say if he was served something he didn't like in a restaurant -- that was CRAZY!! But, he did take in the information and was willing to change. He suggested a "code word" we could say if he was acting like a jerk.
From that time on, he never really completely abstained from alcohol for any length of time ... but he did change those specific behaviors. No more loud music (hallelujah!) and no more rude behavior in public.
With my learning in the program, I came to understand that he was not in his right mind when he did those things. I do know how difficult and crazy-making this is! Now I know that Alanon tools were designed to help us through this situation. Hang in there. Bethany! You are not alone.
pinkchip said
Sep 28, 2016
Try not to self-debase. You are not "whining" and this is not a "pull up your big girl panties moment." This is a "don't waste your energy and efforts on something that will probably cause chaos and be fruitless" sorta thing.
Fact of the matter is, alcohol is in control with him pretty much. Until he surrenders and really wants recovery, he may promise to cut down, not black out, not cook when drunk....whatever and he might mean it when he says it...in terms of having those good intentions. BUT - the denial is so thick that they don't realize all those professions and efforts typically wind up being broken because alcoholism is chronic, progressive, and gets worse, not better. So the point is...even if he was stunned and moved and promised to "drink less" or whatever...anything short of rehab and working a solid program is gonna be a set up to turn him into a liar and that will just add more pain to the mix.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 12:34:36 PM
Bethany66 said
Sep 28, 2016
Thank you PinkChip, for pointing out my self-debasing habit. I appreciate your words of wisdom.
El said
Sep 29, 2016
Reading all these posts really helped me to further "get it" that any discussion about AH's drinking and behavior will never make a dent. Although I don't say much anymore, I still think that if I gently bring it up when he is sober or seemingly receptive, there might be some impact. Sigh.....wrong. Even if the talk starts out well, the denial, twisting and deflecting eventually makes it way forward. I keep having those "V8 moments " of slapping myself in the head.
So, reading everyone's wisdom and experience on this topic was the reminder I needed to Let go and let God.
I know I am classic codependent. I have such a terribly hard time discussing things with my AH. I guess in the past he has always found a way to make me feel horrible for any feelings I have or things I bring up that hurt my feelings. I end up apologizing to him for something before the talk is over. I hold stuff in, until I can't and then I have a total meltdown, usually involving anger, sadness, frustration...you get the picture. It has always been difficult for me to broach sensitive subjects. I don't like any discord. And, I always lose the battle that I had no intention of starting.
If that make any sense, it is a lead in to my current dilemma.
So, based on little tidbits of information I have fed my AH lately, I am convinced that he is blacking out while drinking. He remembers very little after some tipping point. At that tipping point he accidentally breaks things, says horrible things to me, tries desperately to pick fights by being so insulted by some innocuous thing I have said, argues with the neighbors, drives off in either his truck or our golf cart, leaves the stove on, starts to cook and then ruins the dinner, delays meals and generally makes life at home a nightmare.
The other day (on a sober day) he found a book I had purchased in the Getting Them Sober series, concerning separating. He asked if I was leaving and I said no. He said, the book says it is about separating. I said it is about that, but it is also more than that. I wasn't ready to discuss it with him yet.
I really want to discuss with him that the drinking to the point of blacking out/ passing out is no longer something I can live with peaceably. I am not asking anything from him I just want him to know that I am no longer comfortable at home when he is drinking. At this point and time I am not ready to abandon my life, my home and my marriage, but I am at a place where I am seriously searching for a way to live peaceably in my home. I am not sure if I will be successful or not. His drinking is having a profound affect on me.
The last time I filled in some of the things that he had done during a black out he was shocked. I am not entirely sure if he even believes it to be the truth. I think he believes I am stretching the truth when in reality I only told him a few of the events that transpired. I want to tell him some of the things he did in his last black out on Sunday. Maybe it would shock him again. But, it is the right way to handle it? I think I would want to know how I was behaving when I was not in my right mind, but I am not him. He may NOT want to know. And does it help his situation or not? I admit, I want it to shock him in to not drinking so much. So is that controlling? Probably.
I know we don't offer advice, but any one's personal experience and how they handled it would be appreciated. Has talking to an alcoholic about how their drinking is affecting you ever made an iota of difference in the situation? Has talking to an alcoholic about the things they say and do during a black out ever made one iota of difference? Is it worth the risk to bring these things out of my head and into the light? I am so tired of the elephant in my living room.
Today is my Face to Face meeting and I am so in need of it.
There was not one single incident where I was able to reach mine and/or make a difference. What I am finding with my active son is when he starts the conversations, he hears 'better'. We've had two conversations in the last few days and I am quite certain he's not convinced his life is an issue, but he's not debating, screaming, fighting back to my thoughts as he has in the past. So - for me - no way I have ever found to be heard when the disease is active. I used to wait for moments of coherency and try and it was just pointless. The denial of the disease is active even when the substances are set aside for short periods of time.
I've heard it all about my literature, my meetings, etc. I just QTIP....I had to find a way through recovery to have my peace/joy no matter if they were active/not active. Positive Thoughts sent your way!
Sorry you have got this stress to deal with.
In my experience with AH it is not a good idea to mention anything to the A as it will all be twisted around back at you. The disease has to deny everything to the A so the defence mechanisms set in. It is usually the one who mentioned the issue who ends up upset, frustrated and exhausted.
I learnt to leave it alone. To protect myself. The disease will not believe the truth and will launch an attack against anyone trying to speak the truth.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Tuesday 27th of September 2016 11:24:05 AM
I'm not dealing with an alcoholic but with some behavior that feels very much like that of an Alcoholic. I am learning the wisdom of LEAVING IT ALONE. Protecting myself should be my first priority, and I can see that my efforts to "talk" will backfire on me.
There are safe places for me to express my feelings, and I do journal almost obsessively when I need to get clear on my feelings. But talking to the people who are trapped in toxic thinking is not the way.
Thank you for your share. I also use this method in all my affairs. A great relief to me - and probably to everyone I know!!
Minding my own business works so well. I also step away from people trapped in toxic thinking. I cannot change them, even if it was my business to try and do do! Which it isn't.
I love love love having boundaries.
I enjoy journalling too. A joy and healthy relief.
My former deceased sponsor still is spiritually active going around touching others as he touched me. My complaining years were very very hard on me and my attitude until I met him thru a former sponsor. One of the things he impressed upon me which stuck the first time I heard it was "No one and nothing has the power to hurt you without your participation". The answer to the question "What do I do"? was "Stop it"!! and so I did and found lots of time I could use to be good to myself. How simple..."Stop it"!!
What followed in the lessons were the simple re-understandings that made my listening and practices much easier to arrive at and use in my daily life. I started to see my alcoholic/addict wife truthfully...as she was...an alcoholic/addict very sick person with a brain injured by mind and mood altering chemicals and so I stopped trying to be logical with an illogical condition. I fell back on the slogan, "Keep it simple" and when that didn't work even the next slogans were "when in doubt....don't" that master of them all for me, "LET GO...LET GOD". When I did that process and more I release my alcoholic/addict wife over to a power much more great than Jerry F and in time the woman who was my alcoholic/addict wife got clean and sober and because a metaphor from my Higher Power to use in my own recovery. Humility...being teachable which is one of the tools I bring with me here to read, listen and learn from others. Mahalo Piha to my Miracles in Progress Family and the Al-Anon Family Groups. Thank you God. ((((hugs))))
In my experience, it's not lack of information that keeps people active in their addiction. Yet we all try to get through to them with the words that will finally change their life. Until we realize deep inside we didn't cause it, and we can neither control nor cure it.
I found a life in attending alanon and really working it (slowly), regardless of others' behaviors.
My focus has really tightened to where it should have been all along. Good old hindsight.
gotta go..got a job nterview..hugs to u.
I gave up trying to change my husband and started to change my circumstances instead. One word that I did learn to use very rarely, if ever, was the word 'you'. I started to keep my words and focus on me, on my needs and peace of mind.
So where as I used to say something to the effect of 'when you were rude to me last night it hurt me.' I changed words for action and would simply move into our spare bedroom on the grounds that I really don't want to share a bed with someone who is rude and smells of booze.
I would imagine myself saying 'this is because' but actually I rarely said anything. My actions spoke more clearly than my words.
Your first paragraph makes perfect sense to me - hey ho! We keep on learning!!!
I have a friend who is an alcoholic. When we were first becoming friends, he blacked out a couple of times after neighborhood parties (where he was totally jolly and fun -- the life of the party); after the parties ended, he and I would often hang out together and he would tell me his tales of woe about loneliness or he'd tell me about his big plans for a restaurant -- it was never awful or violent - it was either fun or he was sad -- but we'd spend HOURS talking. I would sometimes reference our convos the following day and he would say that he didn't remember any of it after a certain point, because he had blacked out. I would then say to him at the next party -- hey, are you sure you want to keep drinking? and he absolutely did want to keep on. So... that's my experience (which offers no strength or hope, sorry).
One of the ODAT readings that is a real zinger to me every time I read it talks about if we were being recorded when we were harranguing our loved ones, would we like how we sounded? I think it uses the term "fishwife". My answer to that question if I like how I sound for myself is no. I wonder if you talked to him about it when he was sober and asked him if he wanted you to record him the next time he was drunk - since it sounds like he sort of appreciated what you were telling him but also sort of didn't believe it. I don't know if that's got any potential for helpfulness or if it would make things worse. I have another friend who records EVERYTHING on his phone because he is paranoid and a drug addict and thinks everyone is out to get him and it's very annoying, but he's doing it without asking anyone, he just puts the phone in peoples faces.
I have been in your shoes. Since I am a talker, I tried to reason with my exAH about his disease for years. In return I always got denial, blame, shame...lots of negative feedback. It drove me nuts. I just wanted to reason with him. It made no logical sense that he could not hear me. From many F2F meetings and meetings with my counselor, I finally heard what I needed which was that he is sick. Alcoholism is a disease and we can't cure it. And as long as his disease is active, he will never hear me. His thinking is sick. His brain is sick. It is not logical. It defies reason. I finally accepted these facts and stopped trying to talk with him about it. I realized it was an effort in futility that only upset me and disrupted my serenity. This was a hard lesson for me to learn (yes I am stubborn-LOL!) but was very freeing once I accepted it. I stopped myself each time I wanted to talk to him about his drinking and reminded myself that his brain is sick and he will not hear me. I began to feel much better when I stopped trying to figure out a new way to say things, to find a way to get through to him and just let him be. That was detachment for me and it was one of the many gifts which I received from this program.
This was not an easy habit for me to break, so go easy on yourself if try it. It takes practice. It is a hard habit to break but yields much serenity. I wish you well!
'Has talking to an alcoholic about how their drinking is affecting you ever made an iota of difference in the situation? Has talking to an alcoholic about the things they say and do during a black out ever made one iota of difference? Is it worth the risk to bring these things out of my head and into the light? I am so tired of the elephant in my living room.'
In my experience, no, no and yes if it makes you feel better.
Discussing anything with an active alcoholic is like speaking English to someone who only speaks Chinese and then expecting to be heard and even understood and then even changing things with this pointless exchange. Its a complete waste of your time and energy and the motives behind your attempt is most likely trying to control or change his behaviour. Of course his memory is poor, all drinkers memories are poor, their brains are being attacked by a poison regularly. Im sorry to sound so blunt this must be devastating for you to live with. You may be driven by fear, you want him to listen, he cant, you want him to change, he can only do this when the pressure gets worse than the drinking.
So, any conversation that you have with him to get him to change is likely to be enabling the disease to continue because when someone else is watching their health and behaviour and actions and worrying and fretting then this helps them relax within their disease because you are providing them with a false sense of securtiy, someone is watching over them, you. Detaching with Love is the best tool I could suggest, learning about taking your eyes completely off him and how this is his best chance. When he is rambling on repeating himself dont listen anymore, gently leave the room, dont put yourself through it. Dont tidy any of his mess or help him in anyway live more comfortably within the prison of this disease because this helps the disease thrive. Its all in Alanon, meetings, sponsor, reading.
I do realize that talking to him about this is futile. I can see how this all goes, the patterns and the denial and defense of the disease. There is no way I am going to change his mind, when he is not in his right mind to begin with.
This week he is sobers so far. I think his new theory is to only drink on the weekends (Friday through Sunday). He is trying to control his drinking and I am grateful for his effort and grateful for sober days. They remind me of what was and what on occasion, can be. But I know it can be over in the crack of a screw top or the pull of a cork screw. I also now these sober days will be used to support his belief that he doesn't have a problem. And for him, that is what it is. But it definitely confirms to me that I have a problem. And I am in need of healing and recovery. And that is why I hang out here and my F2F meetings.
Thank you again for sharing your ESH. It is one of the priceless gifts of this program.
I know I am classic codependent. I have such a terribly hard time discussing things with my AH. I guess in the past he has always found a way to make me feel horrible for any feelings I have or things I bring up that hurt my feelings.
to a much better place in my mind (more clarity) they aren't blacking out 
..
So, based on little tidbits of information I have fed my AH lately, I am convinced that he is blacking out while drinking. He remembers very little
found for me talking to them or trying to reason wasn't going to lead either of us toward serenity or sanity .. (clarity) .. they weren't even In their mind let alone their Right mind ..
talking to others in face to face meetings ? yes helpful .. much better chance of being led there ..
my guy was a meth addict .. they were trying to do Anything to jump Out of their mind (skin too) .. course I was trying to Jump out of mine too .. and into theirs .. It wasn't my sanest
choice .. I was so filled with hurt (resentments) I couldn't see clear .. trying to reason with them (especially when using) was a big piece of what brought me through the doors '
of alanon ..
feeling crazy .. (even more confused than I already was) ..
-- Edited by MeTwo2 on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 11:22:28 AM
Dear Bethany, I have been somewhat where you are and send you prayers. I also was never one to be open about my feelings of fear and anger with alcoholic behavior. I could never think of a good way to say it. Pouring out my feelings about the drinking did no good. But I did experience a measure of success when my late AH was at a point where he was open to some feedback.
After a serious seizure with injuries and hospitalization, I tried to get him to contact the Chemical Dependency Program, and he refused. He denied that he was an alcoholic, but said, "Watch my behavior," which to me meant he was open to some changes. So I took the opportunity, to spell out a couple of behaviors that had been driving me nuts: (1) Playing music very loudly (at night, at family gatherings, etc.), even when I asked as politely as I could to turn it down, and (2) "belligerent" behavior, e.g., being overly argumentative in family gatherings and acting like a jerk to the servers in restaurants.
In consultation with my daughter, she and I wrote down the specific behaviors he was doing and what he should do instead. I shared that with him once he was home from the hospital. -Now, I'll admit, we went way too far! I wasn't in Alanon at the time, and didn't know about releasing control. My daughter and I even wrote him a script for what he should say if he was served something he didn't like in a restaurant -- that was CRAZY!! But, he did take in the information and was willing to change. He suggested a "code word" we could say if he was acting like a jerk.
From that time on, he never really completely abstained from alcohol for any length of time ... but he did change those specific behaviors. No more loud music (hallelujah!) and no more rude behavior in public.
With my learning in the program, I came to understand that he was not in his right mind when he did those things. I do know how difficult and crazy-making this is! Now I know that Alanon tools were designed to help us through this situation. Hang in there. Bethany! You are not alone.
Try not to self-debase. You are not "whining" and this is not a "pull up your big girl panties moment." This is a "don't waste your energy and efforts on something that will probably cause chaos and be fruitless" sorta thing.
Fact of the matter is, alcohol is in control with him pretty much. Until he surrenders and really wants recovery, he may promise to cut down, not black out, not cook when drunk....whatever and he might mean it when he says it...in terms of having those good intentions. BUT - the denial is so thick that they don't realize all those professions and efforts typically wind up being broken because alcoholism is chronic, progressive, and gets worse, not better. So the point is...even if he was stunned and moved and promised to "drink less" or whatever...anything short of rehab and working a solid program is gonna be a set up to turn him into a liar and that will just add more pain to the mix.
-- Edited by pinkchip on Wednesday 28th of September 2016 12:34:36 PM
Reading all these posts really helped me to further "get it" that any discussion about AH's drinking and behavior will never make a dent. Although I don't say much anymore, I still think that if I gently bring it up when he is sober or seemingly receptive, there might be some impact. Sigh.....wrong. Even if the talk starts out well, the denial, twisting and deflecting eventually makes it way forward. I keep having those "V8 moments " of slapping myself in the head.
So, reading everyone's wisdom and experience on this topic was the reminder I needed to Let go and let God.
(((hugs)))
Ellen