I was recently in a committee in al anon to do some research into our groups finances. A fellow member was not getting clear information from the treasurer at our group conscience. Since we did not have time to resolve it a motion was entered to form a committee to research. A long story ... But in the end we were told by the treasurer that she had kept money at home for over two years and had not deposited the money into the bank. For 2-1/2 years our donations had not been sent to all of our al anon local, state, and WSO groups. The statements that were made and provided by the treasurer did not reflect any money missing until a committee member brought the treasurer to the bank to obtain bank statements ... which then provided the member and the committee with the correct information. It turned out to be a lot more than the treasurer had admitted to.
my questions:
1) what is the right way to deal with this?
A member in the committee (committee: treasurer, alternate, and 2 members) ...the alternate ... wanted to keep it quite as the treasurer was going on a trip and wouldn't be back for a month... The treasurer wanted to wait so she could make amends when she got back ... And planned on keeping the position and putting in some money into the bank account before she left.
Is this not considered embezzlement? Against the law?
since no one is in charge ... A member of the committee revealed the information at the next meeting which the alternate took offense to. The member contended that she reports to the group ... The alternate contended that she reports to the group conscience?
we waited a month for the treasurer to return and she never admitted or made amends ... She did put in the money... But it has caused so much turmoil in our group... And she is still attending the meeting... But has been removed as treasurer. Many felt we could not discuss (theft/embezzlement) because it could be considered as gossip.
please advise...we need to find our serenity again
hotrod said
Sep 22, 2016
Hello and welcome I believe that you have handled the situation well considering. I do believe that another group conscious meeting should be held and, depending on the amount of funds that were taken, a decision reached as to the next right action Ie notifying the police etc. Since the member is still attending she should be present for the discussion and be called on to explain her position . That way this would not be gossip I am pleased that she has been removed as treasurer.
Let us know how it goes.
DavidG said
Sep 22, 2016
The question I would ask- if I was a group member- is the money still there?
If money has not been deposited this would show up on bank statements.
Was there opportunity for the treasurer to present statements and have these checked?
e_i_m said
Sep 22, 2016
My thought would be to consult the WSO office for guidance.
Iwashere said
Sep 22, 2016
Thanks for your replies...
The treasurers was asked many times to provide the bank statements that were being mailed to her address. When the committee met for the first time ... after the group conscience ... She did not bring the statements and wanted to start our financial summary with the day we met...what was in the bank at that time ... We stopped the meeting and found the nearest branch of the bank. We had to pay $96 for the statements.
The treasurer deposited the money ... But ... Was not going to until she was pinned down and discovered ... Almost 3k. Many lies and manipulation.
hotrod said
Sep 22, 2016
3k is quite a bit of money As E I M suggested, I think WSO could give you the best direction.
Iamhere said
Sep 22, 2016
I too agree with a consult with WSO. I know this has happened before and the 'what next' was based on group conscious decision in my area. I can certainly understand how this would affect a group - actions like this invoke anger, hostility, mistrust and more. I agree it's good she no longer has access to a trusted servant position.
I am sorry this has caused such mayhem in your group. A group that I am still a part of survived a similar scenario with time. It was rough for a while but those committed to recovery were able to put principles ahead of personalities as well as understanding that recovery is a WE program.
hotrod said
Sep 22, 2016
Just another thought, making the best of a bad situation would suggest that the lesson learned from this is to have the group decide to limit the term of treasurer to 3 months and alternate the position by holding a group business meeting every few months.
Good luck
Calm Lady said
Sep 23, 2016
Surely this is a matter for the police? Stealing is stealing. Plain and simple.
The law applies to everyone.
In Al-anon aren't we meant to let people feel the consequences of their actions? Not enable them so they don't.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Friday 23rd of September 2016 12:16:42 AM
Iwashere said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks for putting this scenario into black and white Calm Lady. In our group conscience the treasurer said "that she was being portrayed as a thief" ... Some members consoled her ... Many wanted to "move on" ... Others didn't want to get involved ... We have a few sitting with her now at another table to "support" her
If we can't use our program in our program ... What are we doing?
We are having our final meeting on this issue next week ... To create checks and balances so this won't happen in the future.
el-cee said
Sep 23, 2016
That's awful. Horrible position to be in. We never have money accumulating it's always sent on to wso and for pi.
tiredtonite said
Sep 23, 2016
I think the appropriate action in consideration of working Alanon's Traditions, would be to contact Alanon's World Service Organization for guidance on handling this situation.
The group could then address the situation by implementing the suggestions of the WSO. It's no small matter and it affects your group as a whole. Your group knows your treasurer as a meeting member, a service worker of Alanon, and perhaps a friend. You've heard this member's shares. It could be hard to put principles above personalities.
In my humble opinion, I would want to still be an Alanon group and a healthy one once the dust settled. That would be the ultimate goal for me. I would not want to lose my meeting and it's members as a result of this problem. The WSO may already have a formalized way of addressing this money issue. Involving the WSO would allow your group members to continue to come to the meeting for the purpose of personal Alanon recovery. Discussion of this incident wouldn't have to overshadow your meeting room as the elephant in the middle of the room nor the treasurer's presence in the meeting for that matter.
Anyway... inviting the WSO and higher power into the process would be what I would suggest if I were someone attending your meeting.
I wish your group the best in finding answers that work and serenity as you go through this process. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:50:15 AM
DavidG said
Sep 23, 2016
If the member had stolen the money for his/her own use that is outright theft.
Neglect of duty is not illegal... and for many of us a part of the reason we belong in the first place.
In this part of the world our officers serve for only two years at a time. This member has had to carry the cart for three years.
Our leaders are but trusted servants. They do not govern.
So for me there is a sense of some broad neglect hanging over the whole group.
C. since the issue had bin raised I would be interested to know what response WSO makes... and what the group does... an interesting consciance issue
Iwashere said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks again for all of your responses.
I did contact the WSO today. They do not have guidelines/procedures for this. I was pretty much told that we should be grateful that the money was returned and that we should use the twelve steps and traditions for guidance. Since the group is not a legal entity she didn't feel there would be anything to pursue legally. (Not that anyone has asked to go down that road...but something that was illegal was done). They are aware of this happening in al anon groups. Quoted me Tradition 10..."hence our name ought never be drawn into public controversy" ... Which would preclude us from engaging in any kind of legal action. She suggested I contact my area group representative. Practice forgiveness...and put in place steps that would keep this from happening again.
Iamhere said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks for circling back with your research/WSO response. That reflects what happened in our case. The biggest difference in my scenario vs. yours is two fold - we were not able to recover the funds and the person stopped coming to the group. The former left many frustrated and drove us to make changes in our trusted servant roles/responsibilities. The latter was probably a blessing in disguise.
I will say through-out our entire situation, it was NEVER discussed in meetings. I don't know exactly how we managed, but we did manage to keep the discussions in the group conscious setting and kept it from boiling over into our recovery meetings.
I am sending your group positive thoughts and prayers. It's so sad when there is discord in any group - and can so disrupt the cohesion and intended purpose of the group. Keep coming back - love your name....ha.ha.ha.
maryjane said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks for getting back with the answer you got from World Service. It was very helpful and exactly what I thought they would say.
What I was interested in was what you wrote about the members of your group comforting your thief.
--------------------------
" In our group conscience the treasurer said "that she was being portrayed as a thief" ... Some members consoled her ... Many wanted to "move on" ... Others didn't want to get involved ... We have a few sitting with her now at another table to "support" her......."
----------------------------
It is none of my business how other people conduct themselves except to be able to protect myself from them when they can cause harm to me. I find that people who have to comfort/support the thief or ignore what happened and just move on and not get involved... these people are practicing their disease instead of practicing their recovery from the disease of alcoholism. We are a program of honesty and we sometimes have to find the honesty in our words to see the truth of embezzlement as a theft from the rest of you. She lost your trust. She stole money from you. You may not be able to legally do anything about it, but you don't ever have to trust that she won't do it again. We don't have to know the "why", but we do have to protect ourselves.
We are also having a "kerfuffle" in our AIS (AlAnon Information Service) in my neck of the woods. We are able to keep it out of our meetings and keep it only in our AIS meetings. It is not hard because we all go into our meetings for our own personal healing.
Iwashere said
Sep 24, 2016
Thanks maryjane and iamhere ...
Looking back on this (I was part of the committee) ...
1) After being told by the treasurer that she had kept (almost 2k) money from the group and verbally lashing out at the member who had brought this about ... we should have asked for an immediate group conscience and/or business meeting ... Instead of ... Conceding to the requests of the treasurer and the alternate treasurer ... to wait for a month for the treasurer to come back from a trip (She did come to the group before she left for her trip and acted like nothing had happened).
2) it was also asked that we keep it quite ... And not tell anyone ... Until the group conscience (for a month). This caused havoc ... As we all didn't agree. We went back to ... No one is in charge. A member of the treasurer committee brought the information back to the group in a typed up form (minutes of the meeting) ... And then requested the group conscience to be held in a month when the treasurer returned. We did not discuss it during our meetings while we waited for her return.
These two items caused problems ... We waited too long ... It brought about strife within the group ... Some believed a theft/business topic should be discussed ... And not considered gossip ... Some thought we should not ... And as I said some wanted to move on ... Or not be involved.
The two members that brought the information back to the group became the focus ... Instead of what had happened ... A theft by the treasurer.
Iwashere said
Sep 24, 2016
To all that have responded...
Thanks for taking the time to respond. What has made this all so hard is that we all really love our group ... And cherish our members. Several have been in the group for decades ... Many long time friendships. We have shared our life ... Our personal struggles ... It was our safe place.
So thank you for your thoughts and prayers ...
jojo8466 said
Sep 24, 2016
I began to read this and had to stop. Issues of breaking the law and confrontation cause me a lot of anxiety so I had to STOP after the first couple of lines! LOL.
I'm sure you were given some very good advise and I hope you found a solution to the problem!
geems said
Sep 24, 2016
I sure get that "we love our group" sentiment Iwashere. I would be crushed if one of the trusted members of any group I was part of went rogue like that. The old me wants to be all in their faces about the poor behaviour choices but that's not my job. I suppose then it is a job for an outside intervention. Don't create a crisis but don't stop one from occurring if it means protecting the person from the natural consequences of their behaviour? I would not be able to trust that person easily again though. Best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. Thanks for sharing this Iwashere. Prayers for peace and resolution for your loving group
hotrod said
Sep 24, 2016
IWH I am pleased that WSO did present you with their position on the issue. It appears the group, as a whole has processed the event and learned some valuable lessons.
The key, as I see it is the fact that "We are not perfect "as the alanon closing states. Handling painful situations within the group, using the traditions and principles is great practice,
Positive thoughts and prayers on the way
I am needing al anon guidance.
I was recently in a committee in al anon to do some research into our groups finances. A fellow member was not getting clear information from the treasurer at our group conscience. Since we did not have time to resolve it a motion was entered to form a committee to research. A long story ... But in the end we were told by the treasurer that she had kept money at home for over two years and had not deposited the money into the bank. For 2-1/2 years our donations had not been sent to all of our al anon local, state, and WSO groups. The statements that were made and provided by the treasurer did not reflect any money missing until a committee member brought the treasurer to the bank to obtain bank statements ... which then provided the member and the committee with the correct information. It turned out to be a lot more than the treasurer had admitted to.
my questions:
1) what is the right way to deal with this?
A member in the committee (committee: treasurer, alternate, and 2 members) ...the alternate ... wanted to keep it quite as the treasurer was going on a trip and wouldn't be back for a month... The treasurer wanted to wait so she could make amends when she got back ... And planned on keeping the position and putting in some money into the bank account before she left.
Is this not considered embezzlement? Against the law?
since no one is in charge ... A member of the committee revealed the information at the next meeting which the alternate took offense to. The member contended that she reports to the group ... The alternate contended that she reports to the group conscience?
we waited a month for the treasurer to return and she never admitted or made amends ... She did put in the money... But it has caused so much turmoil in our group... And she is still attending the meeting... But has been removed as treasurer. Many felt we could not discuss (theft/embezzlement) because it could be considered as gossip.
please advise...we need to find our serenity again
Let us know how it goes.
The question I would ask- if I was a group member- is the money still there?
If money has not been deposited this would show up on bank statements.
Was there opportunity for the treasurer to present statements and have these checked?
The treasurers was asked many times to provide the bank statements that were being mailed to her address. When the committee met for the first time ... after the group conscience ... She did not bring the statements and wanted to start our financial summary with the day we met...what was in the bank at that time ... We stopped the meeting and found the nearest branch of the bank. We had to pay $96 for the statements.
The treasurer deposited the money ... But ... Was not going to until she was pinned down and discovered ... Almost 3k. Many lies and manipulation.
I am sorry this has caused such mayhem in your group. A group that I am still a part of survived a similar scenario with time. It was rough for a while but those committed to recovery were able to put principles ahead of personalities as well as understanding that recovery is a WE program.
Good luck
Surely this is a matter for the police? Stealing is stealing. Plain and simple.
The law applies to everyone.
In Al-anon aren't we meant to let people feel the consequences of their actions? Not enable them so they don't.
-- Edited by Calm Lady on Friday 23rd of September 2016 12:16:42 AM
If we can't use our program in our program ... What are we doing?
We are having our final meeting on this issue next week ... To create checks and balances so this won't happen in the future.
I think the appropriate action in consideration of working Alanon's Traditions, would be to contact Alanon's World Service Organization for guidance on handling this situation.
The group could then address the situation by implementing the suggestions of the WSO. It's no small matter and it affects your group as a whole. Your group knows your treasurer as a meeting member, a service worker of Alanon, and perhaps a friend. You've heard this member's shares. It could be hard to put principles above personalities.
In my humble opinion, I would want to still be an Alanon group and a healthy one once the dust settled. That would be the ultimate goal for me. I would not want to lose my meeting and it's members as a result of this problem. The WSO may already have a formalized way of addressing this money issue. Involving the WSO would allow your group members to continue to come to the meeting for the purpose of personal Alanon recovery. Discussion of this incident wouldn't have to overshadow your meeting room as the elephant in the middle of the room nor the treasurer's presence in the meeting for that matter.
Anyway... inviting the WSO and higher power into the process would be what I would suggest if I were someone attending your meeting.
I wish your group the best in finding answers that work and serenity as you go through this process. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Friday 23rd of September 2016 11:50:15 AM
If the member had stolen the money for his/her own use that is outright theft.
Neglect of duty is not illegal... and for many of us a part of the reason we belong in the first place.
In this part of the world our officers serve for only two years at a time. This member has had to carry the cart for three years.
Our leaders are but trusted servants. They do not govern.
So for me there is a sense of some broad neglect hanging over the whole group.
C. since the issue had bin raised I would be interested to know what response WSO makes... and what the group does... an interesting consciance issue
I did contact the WSO today. They do not have guidelines/procedures for this. I was pretty much told that we should be grateful that the money was returned and that we should use the twelve steps and traditions for guidance. Since the group is not a legal entity she didn't feel there would be anything to pursue legally. (Not that anyone has asked to go down that road...but something that was illegal was done). They are aware of this happening in al anon groups. Quoted me Tradition 10..."hence our name ought never be drawn into public controversy" ... Which would preclude us from engaging in any kind of legal action. She suggested I contact my area group representative. Practice forgiveness...and put in place steps that would keep this from happening again.
I will say through-out our entire situation, it was NEVER discussed in meetings. I don't know exactly how we managed, but we did manage to keep the discussions in the group conscious setting and kept it from boiling over into our recovery meetings.
I am sending your group positive thoughts and prayers. It's so sad when there is discord in any group - and can so disrupt the cohesion and intended purpose of the group. Keep coming back - love your name....ha.ha.ha.
What I was interested in was what you wrote about the members of your group comforting your thief.
--------------------------
" In our group conscience the treasurer said "that she was being portrayed as a thief" ... Some members consoled her ... Many wanted to "move on" ... Others didn't want to get involved ... We have a few sitting with her now at another table to "support" her......."
----------------------------
It is none of my business how other people conduct themselves except to be able to protect myself from them when they can cause harm to me. I find that people who have to comfort/support the thief or ignore what happened and just move on and not get involved... these people are practicing their disease instead of practicing their recovery from the disease of alcoholism. We are a program of honesty and we sometimes have to find the honesty in our words to see the truth of embezzlement as a theft from the rest of you. She lost your trust. She stole money from you. You may not be able to legally do anything about it, but you don't ever have to trust that she won't do it again. We don't have to know the "why", but we do have to protect ourselves.
We are also having a "kerfuffle" in our AIS (AlAnon Information Service) in my neck of the woods. We are able to keep it out of our meetings and keep it only in our AIS meetings. It is not hard because we all go into our meetings for our own personal healing.
Thanks maryjane and iamhere ...
Looking back on this (I was part of the committee) ...
1) After being told by the treasurer that she had kept (almost 2k) money from the group and verbally lashing out at the member who had brought this about ... we should have asked for an immediate group conscience and/or business meeting ... Instead of ... Conceding to the requests of the treasurer and the alternate treasurer ... to wait for a month for the treasurer to come back from a trip (She did come to the group before she left for her trip and acted like nothing had happened).
2) it was also asked that we keep it quite ... And not tell anyone ... Until the group conscience (for a month). This caused havoc ... As we all didn't agree. We went back to ... No one is in charge. A member of the treasurer committee brought the information back to the group in a typed up form (minutes of the meeting) ... And then requested the group conscience to be held in a month when the treasurer returned. We did not discuss it during our meetings while we waited for her return.
These two items caused problems ... We waited too long ... It brought about strife within the group ... Some believed a theft/business topic should be discussed ... And not considered gossip ... Some thought we should not ... And as I said some wanted to move on ... Or not be involved.
The two members that brought the information back to the group became the focus ... Instead of what had happened ... A theft by the treasurer.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. What has made this all so hard is that we all really love our group ... And cherish our members. Several have been in the group for decades ... Many long time friendships. We have shared our life ... Our personal struggles ... It was our safe place.
So thank you for your thoughts and prayers ...
I'm sure you were given some very good advise and I hope you found a solution to the problem!
The key, as I see it is the fact that "We are not perfect "as the alanon closing states. Handling painful situations within the group, using the traditions and principles is great practice,
Positive thoughts and prayers on the way