I haven't physically seen xabf for maybe a couple of months now. Things were seemingly OK between us (I guess) and then he turned up one night drunk and demanding that I live with him again or break up. I thought it ended on 'break up' because he sent me a bunch of nasty messages and then blocked my number, skype etc for 2 weeks. I was sad, confused, threw a bit of a "I'm too sick to get out of bed" fit for a while and failed at life (because I was SO sad, gag) and then decided, you know what? I'm OK. I really am. This is right, this is how it's meant to be. We're finally over, bring on Mel's Life 2.0
Anyway he called a few weeks ago just as I was starting to feel OK (uncanny, huh?) and acted like nothing had ever happened. Oh wait, he dropped over for 5 minutes one day and he was really rude. So I lied when I said I haven't seen him but I didn't mean to, it was just such a non-event that I honestly forgot. *editing post for the sake of honesty.
Since then he's called maybe once a week, and we have nothing to say to each other. "Hi, hi, how are you, ok, ok then, thats good, hmm, haha, so I better go". We literally have nothing to say. It's so awkward.
I don't feel happy to hear from him. My heart sinks. But he ends these calls with "I love you" and I reply in kind. And I don't. I really don't anymore. I feel a little guilty, a lot of lonely, but not love. But I can't seem to say it, and I can't seem to not answer the phone. I feel paralysed.
And I don't know why I can't say it. Last night he called, drunk, and said he wanted to come over for a few days (my daughter is away for 2 weeks and he knows it). I said maybe, I'll get back to you, but I can't think of anything worse actually. I have nothing to say to him. I know I can't, I know I don't want to, I just don't know how to say it. I know what words I should use, I just don't know how to be alright with saying them. They won't come out of my fearful codependent mouth.
It's really confusing and I know it must sound absolutely alien to most people. I know this isn't a comfortable topic but we were together for 10 years and there was a lot of drunken physical abuse. I mean a lot. Broken bones, black eyes, really awful stuff. I mean it was really bad, but when I was close to it, I couldn't see it clearly. I loved him so much, or whatever it was. Love, obsession, trauma bonding, who knows what it really was. It felt like a movie; it didn't seem real. I needed him for whatever reason. I couldn't let go. You and me babe against the world and all of that crap.
The longer we are apart, the more clearly I can see it and the more it horrifies me. How did I do that to myself? How did I willfully let myself be harmed over and over again? We've lived apart for 2 years now and funnily enough, he hasn't hurt me for 2 years. And he really has been good, and helpful, and reasonable for those 2 years, but he's still a complete and utter dick when he's drunk, and he's drunk a lot, and I know if I ever put myself in the position of living with him again it would start up again. Probably worse than ever, I think. I suspect he's got a lot of rage to take out on me for making him live away for 2 years. Maybe not when he's sober, he doesn't think that way when he's sober but as soon as he's drunk enough and the switch flips, I think, maybe, this time it would be catastrophic. That's a pretty massive shoe I'd be waiting to hear drop. There's just no way. I can see clearly enough now to know that it could actually be the end of my life, and I'm not a fan of that scenario these days. I'm not "all there" yet, but I do finally know that I enjoy being alive a lot more than I enjoy being an actor in a psychotic tele-drama.
The way I see things now, I don't want that ever again. Even if he never hurt me again, even if I could be absolutely sure of that, if I love someone now it's going to be someone that never did, could or would hurt me, drunk or not. I'm sure of that.
So why can't I say it. It's almost done, I mean the bandaid is almost off. Why do I keep I stickytaping it back on?
The idea of hurting him after he's been "so good" for 2 years is really upsetting. But the idea of how much I have been hurt is also upsetting, in a white hot rage sort of way. My thinking is so messed up. I'm really bad at managing danger because my instinct is "be polite, don't upset people". And there's a whole lot of other stuff I guess, the finality of it, what if it's a mistake, what if he's better, what if, what if, what if. What if I still love him and it hurts. That's the big one, I guess. The one I don't want to even look at.
Now "just get rid of him, kick his ass" etc isn't what I need to hear because if I was built to respond like that I would have done it after a year, 2 years, 10 years. I'm obviously a bit of a broken unit because I have never done self-preservation well.
I just don't know how to rip off the bandaid once and for all. I mean, I know how to say the words, but I don't know how to be alright with them. The guilt is suffocating. The fear of being alone forever isn't all that s-hot either.
I'm also pretty pissy that he broke up with me and I got through it and now I'm still in this position. ffs when does the torture end.
Thanks for listening.
-- Edited by MissM on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 03:03:17 AM
a4l said
Sep 22, 2016
Lovely to see you again, you look amazing!
I don't know the why's, but on fear of being alone, it is very hard to lose an alcoholic. Very hard.
Suffice to say I doubt anything you say or don't say will change whatever he chooses to do. Which is irrelevant anyway because its not about him its all about you.
Maybe its scary because you've never said it before. Practice makes us better. Try it. Just try it. See how it feels to say it. Say it in the mirror.
What's the worst thing that could happen? Personally I think you're stronger than you know. Give yourself some credit for all the other scary things you feared and faced nonetheless. This to my looking is no different.
You can do it.
Its OK if you don't, but you so so can.
Xx
MissM said
Sep 22, 2016
Thanks A41. Your faith in me is encouraging. I actually did try saying it out loud after reading that. Nothing exploded and I wasn't struck by lightening. So maybe...
Stumbling blocks:
He says, he has only stayed in this state for the last 2 years because I said, we would get back together. That's partially true; I said, if we both sorted out our crap I would discuss living together again, in the future, when my daughter finished school and I finished my degree. He feels he has sorted out his crap because he works again, has a car, and has not beaten or terrorised me for 2 years. In fact he's been really nice, kind and good. When sober. And kudos to him, he really is doing well. But it's not exactly what I meant. I don't even expect that he get sober, because how can you expect that? People do what they do because that's what they want to do. What I wanted, before we could begin a dialogue about being together again was for him to acknowledge that violence towards me is not OK and undertake some kind of counselling or something. I mean I didn't think it would work, I guess, but I stipulated over and over that until he could get real about the violence and admit to it and try to take action, we would have nothing to discuss. He still wants to just "leave it in the past" and throws a tantrum if I try to mention it. Problem way, way not solved. Still, as he sees it, he's "put his life on hold" for 2 years and I've lied to him and "kept him hanging on". Maybe I have, I don't know. It's a stupid discussion because I really doubt he would have gone anywhere other than to his brother's anyway. And how much of our relationship was based on "if you don't do what i say, I'll move interstate and you'll never see me again". It's why I ended up living with him in the first place, when i really didn't want to. It went on for years. So eff that old chestnut.
Stumbling block no. 2 is a little bit smaller and yet bigger. And definitely stupider. In our decade together, he never gave me a gift, not ever. His reason was, every time he gave a gift to a girlfriend, she left him shortly after. Heartbreaking story, huh. So we both turned 40 in July and he gave me a gift for the first time ever. And now, ........ and as dumb as it sounds, I am really struggling with that one. God I need therapy.
-- Edited by MissM on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 03:48:49 AM
Mattie said
Sep 22, 2016
I think sometimes we're tempted to believe that finally we're seeing the real person (and that person is a caring person). Like, a gift after all that time - what you always yearned for. I know that so well because I've had exactly that issue with people (men who have never given me a gift, because basically they're withholding and self-absorbed).
The thing is: what do we want? A man who doesn't give any gifts for 12 years, and then finally does give one (while also claiming that it's my fault that they're living where they do and that therefore I "owe" him being with him)? Or a man who is functional and healthy and warm and who gives gifts as a matter of course all along the way, just because he's a normal regular affectionate person? It's really the latter, isn't it?
I had so much trouble breaking up with a longterm boyfriend because it was like playing a slot machine. I had invested so much that it was very painful to walk away without the payout. If I walked away, I had to face the fact that that was the story and, as the saying goes, "that's all she wrote." If I stayed, I could numb myself by thinking that someday it was all going to turn around and the investment would be worth the pain. I didn't really think that out explicitly, but I could kind of put off the day of reckoning. There was so much anger and sorrow in there that I didn't want to have to process it. So I just accumulated more.
Getting back to seeing the "real" person - acting more affectionate and caring when there's more distance is classic manipulative dysfunctional behavior. They try to keep us on the lead by alternately being generous (manipulatively generous, but it's so unusual that we're touched and thrilled by it however it comes) and wheedling - "You owe me! You said! This is your fault! I wouldn't be X or Y except that you insisted! And you've led me on all this time! I can't believe it!" And then as they withdraw, our reflex action to make peace kicks in and we're all trying to be warm and friendly and conciliatory, and then sometimes we give ground that we don't mean to.
Behind the scenes you know what's really going on. Keep on taking good care of yourself.
MissM said
Sep 22, 2016
Dunno if you remember this about me or not Mattie, but I'm a card-carrying gambling addict. Can't even participate in a coin toss in case it wakes up the beast. So, the slot machine analogy rings more than a few bells, lol.
And you're right. I mean, I even know he's being nice now and it will cease within days if I put myself in a vulnerable position with him again. And it's still hard. I mean he's put in all of this time and effort.
Gah. Gah I tell you.
e_i_m said
Sep 22, 2016
I broke up with my abf almost a month ago. He had stopped speaking to me for about a week (we didn't live together, but one day I saw him and everything was normal then I didn't hear anything for a week and his phone was off and no emails). I was so worried about him! And then, through looking at a social media site (which I have now disabled so I won't be tempted to ever look at it again), I discovered that he'd been lying to me for several months about another woman and I just ended it (via email, which I figured he was reading). I had been feeling really small and uncomfortable and not myself in our relationship for a while, but I kept holding on bc I thought the following things: things would get better, he really loved me, I really loved him, he was having a hard time, he was a super catch, I would never find anyone else like him, and I didn't want another woman to get him.
A few days after the break-up, I felt so much better. I look back now on things that happened between us (never any physical abuse, but a lot of lies and secrets on his end and a lot of his behavior that I didn't like but never spoke up about on my end) and I think WTF? Why did I let that go? Why did I tolerate it? That's not who I am. It sounds like that's one of the things you are telling yourself, too.
I'm waiting for him to come by and pick up a lot of stuff that he has at my house -- I'm hoping he will just come and do it when I'm not here. Part of me wants to have some kind of conversation with him and end in peace, but at the same rate, I know I won't be able to trust or believe anything he says. However, I have zero anger at him (from afar, it might be different if I really did see him).
For me, knowing that I feel better and more myself now, alone, than I did when I was with him (and obsessively/compulsively thinking about him and what he was doing every moment that we weren't together), and that's a pretty clear answer for me. Facts not feeling is a good slogan for me here -- even though I (or you) might have felt he'll get better, he means it this time, etc -- the fact of the matter is that the guy is an addict/alcoholic and that's the life and the behavior he chooses. I don't think he's ever going to ask to get back together with me - and I don't think he realizes that sometimes I imagine that happening -- if he did, I'd have to have at least a year on my own to work on my own recovery, and I don't think I would be able to get back together with him unless he admitted he had a problem and went into recovery (which would be so good for him and I hope he'd do it for his sake).
Anyway, I saw another post where a wise person on this board said "it sounds like your man is getting the natural consequences of his actions". That's the case for my ex-fella too (not just with me, with other things). And with your ex, also. If either of us were to get back with our guys, we'd get the natural consequences of our actions, too. If you re-read your post and imagine that someone else wrote it, would you advise that woman to go back to a man who treated her so bad, who she has nothing to say to anymore, and who she thinks might kill her?
MissM said
Sep 22, 2016
Now there's something to chew on. No, I absolutely would not suggest anyone go back into a situation like this. But you know. It's us, we're different, we're special, people don't understand, what we have somehow exists outside of space and time and the rules don't apply, it's different, no-one understands, blah blah. Good point. Thinking we are somehow "different" is dangerous and stupid.
Glad I brought this here.
He has stuff in my shed, so that's another thing. I don't want to see him. Also I want my keys back.
More gah.
e_i_m said
Sep 22, 2016
This board has been really powerful for me in reading other people's stories -- it gives me so much insight into my own thinking/choices/behavior (and my own insanity). And it has helped me re-read my own story and get a lot of clarity.
I think one of the questions on the al-anon brochure "Do you think you grew up in an alcoholic home?" is "Did your parents tell you your family was special/different?" -- something like that. I am absolutely prone to that thinking. And I believe the al-anon/AA response is a dope slap -- because that tool is used to make tawdry, ugly, undignified alcoholic behavior seem somehow charming and special. My parents used that tool and it sure did work on me, because now I use it -- but thanks to al-anon, I can catch myself using it (some of the time). My bf hitch-hiking bc he has no money, taking jobs where he won't be drug tested, leaving his kid home alone, not trusting anyone -- this is not charming.
Something I need to work on is learning to love ordinary, drama-free life. Or to find drama/excitement in nature -- like watching the grass grow or something. I've become used to being in a state of hyper-stimulation from all the drama (and my part in it is the obsessive thinking about him and twisting myself in knots to get his attention), that's it's gonna take a while for me to dial it down and find peace. But it's already happening. I don't wake up thinking about him anymore, and I go HOURS without him going through my mind. I even see his stuff here now and don't even think anything -- at first I kept thinking "he's gotta get that out of here NOW" and now I don't even care when it happens.
Anyway, good luck.
hotrod said
Sep 22, 2016
((Ms.M.))) You have come a long way my dear. YOU are a kind, generous , talented compassionate woman who has worked your program with dedication and have attained a positive inspiring life affirming place in your life.
I urge you to make your asset and gratitude list, daily, pray for courage and wisdom and trust HP for the guidance you need to "Let go and Let God." There is a gracious solution to this seemingly impossible dilemma and being open to the still small voice within will direct your actions. It has worked for me.
Your new picture is lovely.
MissM said
Sep 22, 2016
Thanks Betty. You're right, there probably is an answer, if I stop trying to think everything into existence and listen. I am so good at forgetting to listen.
KennyFenderjazz said
Sep 22, 2016
Hi, wonderful to hear from you again! I don't know that the last two years have been as peachy as you remember them either. Sure they were better than the preceding 10, but you could have so much more than the guy that shows up nice 8 times, than is drunk or completely miserable towards you the other 2. That kind of inconsistency is what drives many people around the bend about alcoholics.
And, has he said what he would do if he gets back together with you? If he just "being nice" so he can get back together and be the way he was before? My wife went for a couple months without drinking once just to prove she could do it. but once those were up, she was back at it. She could get through the two months by saying "it's only two months, I will have what I want once I prove I don't need it". He could go for two years to show that he is now "a nice guy", but will he be back at it again when he is back in your life? I think your boundaries are very good, and if he won't have any counseling, etc then he is just showing that violence is not acknowledged by him as a problem. Which is definitely a problem for you.
And Betty is right, you have come a long way!
Kenny
likemyheart said
Sep 22, 2016
Wisest words spoken to me at the very best right time were: You can always get married (to him) again. Yes, I could, and I got through saying we were through with the thought that IF he were to come to me in a few years and tell me he had been involved in AA, gotten his life back, went to counseling, etc and so on and apologized for putting me through h e double toothpicks, I WOULD listen and consider giving him a chance to win me back. It could happen, but in the mean time I had to reclaim MY life and sanity.
MissM said
Sep 22, 2016
I know it couldn't work. His plan for if we get back together is, he won't hurt me, and he will achieve that by "well maybe if you don't hassle me so much". (Doesn't even make sense; for the last 12 or so months of living together I was literally locked in a room trying as hard as I could to stay away from him 99% of the time. Sure as hell didn't hassle him). I know it isn't an option. I'm just finding it so hard to say the words and let it be done. Full of guilt and second guesses.
likemyheart said
Sep 22, 2016
I remember practicing saying stuff over and over while driving, the only one in the vehicle, said things out loud enough times to make them easier words to get out if I was ever in a situation where it was even halfway possible. it works too. you get used to saying them out loud, maybe it removes some of the bang from them, it gave me opportunities to hear what I said and decide if it was what I WANTED to say as well.
Enigmatic said
Sep 22, 2016
Hang in there Miss...you've got your higher power, the program, and us. You've got this I just read a post that shared a positive, unexpected outcome, and something that stood out to me was that it is the little things, done each day, that add up in ways we don't realize until we've had a moment to reflect. You will have this, because you're working hard every day to make the best decisions you can at the time...one day at a time
e_i_m said
Sep 22, 2016
Mi MissM -- did you happen to read today's page in Hope for Today? It's about how talking and speaking what we want to say can be frightening (and of course, offers ESH on how to deal).
milkwood said
Sep 23, 2016
Good to see you!
I guess after so many years of intensive training (brainwashing) in keeping the peace it is difficult to knowingly step up and say something that might well rock the boat. We are more used to tying ourselves up in knots to keep the peace for others and easily forget that our own peace is our responsibility me-thinks!
Difference now being that you are stronger than you think and you know what the hook looks like.
How is the course going by the way? I'm starting mine this November!
MissM said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks all. I've been practicing with the dog; I hope he doesn't think I'm really breaking up with him LOL.
Paul you're quite right, one foot in front of the other works a lot better than sitting and contemplating how to jump a mile (and not doing it).
eim I don't have hope for today actually, I only have c2c currently. But I am hunting around online as I bet I bet I can find the page you suggest paraphrased somewhere.
Milkwood I think you're right; if I don't take care of my own peace who will? Crazy how instinctive it is to put someone else's comfort first, especially when it's someone who also always puts their comfort first. Nuts!
The course is going OK; I've been...distracted...but I'll arrive on schedule all the same. I've been absorbed in writing a book which really takes the sting out of everything but doesn't pay bills or get me a degree unfortunately lol. What course are you starting? How exciting!!!!!
e_i_m said
Sep 23, 2016
Hope for Today, September 22, page 266 (typed out)
"Talking openly and honestly with my family members is difficult and at times downright painful. Saying to people I love that I'm no longer willing to be around their intense negative energy is a frightening experience. Sometimes I'm afraid I'll have to separate from my family members to maintain my quest for healthy living, especially when they deny and justify their unacceaptable beahvior.
I'm aware that I still want the people I love to change and mature, so that I can be more comfortable. I am also aware that this may or may not happen. Today it's okay for me to want this to happen. However, I am slolwly learning that trying to change some else's behavior to suit my needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. Truly profound power and peace lie in the ability to change my behavior to suit my needs.
Thought for the day: With the help of Al-Anon, I can accept people as they are and find serenity, even if I"m the only one who changes.
'We need to recover, and, when we do, we sometimes find that others are motivated to get better, too; -- from "Does She Drink Too Much?, p.4 "
MissM said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks e.i.m, that's very relevant. I can and ought only change me! Perfect reminder.
Doingmybest said
Sep 23, 2016
Hi Mel,
I've really missed you here lately. Of course, I can't say I have been here as much either...so I guess I need to be back too...lol
Anyway, I just read your post and I think I started here after you shared about the physical abuse. I really didn't know it had gotten that bad. I'm so very sorry you (and your daughter) felt you had to live with that in your life. It reminds me of a Netflix documentary on right now that I watched this week. I literally sat there and cried for the women it featured.
I have lived with physical abuse with husband #1 and have accepted way too much from other men as well. My RAH is now 17 1/2 months sober (and working his program hard). Because of the program, I have seen empathy come from a man who never even understood what the word meant. I'm wondering if this is an emotion you have ever witnessed from the X abf??? I'm betting it is something you have in spades though because you are truly good and kind and loving. Yes, we have each made some poor choices and I do understand the link between people that happens when there is abuse. It is like the us against the world thing you mentioned before because you have a secret between you that you are too ashamed to tell anyone else about. At least that is what my link was for sure. Love....well I didn't really know what love was then and I can say now that love does have ups and downs and that love is giving more than you take (but that applies to both people). The wife gives and the husband gives and each takes less than they give, which means it all works out in the end. Sometimes I give 110% and sometimes he gives 110%. Of course that means the other is only putting in 90% at that time, but it works itself out.
This give and take took me a long, long time to learn and an even longer time to put into practice.
For me in my first marriage *age 19* it was like this: I was working, going to school, cooking, cleaning, washing clothes...and oops, I forgot ketchup on the table (or whatever, but ketchup is a beating I'll never forget). Then he was angry, really really angry because I was so selfishness to have not had the ketchup waiting for him....never mind that I have never eaten ketchup and would not have ever had it in my house except for his use of it. So then I say I'll go run to the store and pick some up, but that is the wrong thing to say because I must be meeting someone else or I did it on purpose so his food would be cold.
He starts to eat, but hates the food without his precious ketchup. Since the verbal abuse has already started, I'm already in tears, I am ruining his supper or have already ruined it...take your pick. Then the first slap or push happens and/or the food gets thrown down and that feeling of "oh s..." hits and I'm starting to get scared. Then comes the "look what you made me do now" followed by a few more physical things and some more nasty name calling and criticism of cooking, cleaning, poor housekeeping skills (just look at the food all over the place), not making myself up (with makeup and clothes suitable for his presence), then some more of the ketchup comments...like how I did it on purpose just to make him angry because I know how much it means to him to have a wife who loves him and wants him to have a nice meal. Then it's on to more physical and verbal junk. Now it's to the "you knew this was going to happen" "you do this to upset me" all while I'm trying my best to be quiet and not cry (no matter what) and then depending on his mood it gets really bad or he goes to a chair in a corner and sits there crying like a 3 year old boy about how I made him do it and how it wasn't his fault and he is so sorry and he can't live without me and blah, blah, blah and what happens to me???? I feel guilty and say it's ok and I'll do better next time and I take responsibility for him beating me and I am the person who feels bad and cleans up the mess and hides the bruises and yes, he has to have make up sex, which often constitutes rape and that is ok because he is happy because I showed him he is loved. Then we hide things from the world because I am the most wonderful, best person ever and I really did prove that I loved him no matter what.
OMG, I hate even remembering this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!
I also remember the day I got out and how hard it was and I remember feeling so strange and making so many poor choices after that because I was so very, very damaged. I get it Mel. I truly do!
And, I promise there is another side to all of this, but it is very hard to see the light when you are still in the shadows. I promise that the little bit of light you see is a great big world of sunshine and flowers if you just give yourself a chance to enjoy it. You can do this because there is no question that you don't want to go back to where you were and how you were living. I know this and so do you.
I saw where you mentioned you only have courage to change. Well I only had that one and the blue book for a long, long time. But, I went on ebay a couple of weeks ago and found a ton of options. I actually bought darn near everything ever made for Alanon and certainly everything that is CAL (which I only recently learned was conference approved literature) lol.
The books were quite cheap *used* and I got them for around $3.50 each. Shipping is often combined if you ask and order from the same company and also several companies have the buy 2, get 1 free program too. I used each and every program and spent less on all of them than I would have on even one or two at regular price. Be careful of Ebay Goodwill online because they overprice on these books and sell pamphlets as books :( but the other companies were great. Also, at the local Goodwill I found a couple for literally fifty cents. That was a great deal for sure.
I just thought I would point this out so you would have options. I was surprised how different some of the books were and how much information they contained.
OK...enough with the novel. I'm just glad you are back and I believe in you!!!!! You can do this!!!!
MissM said
Sep 23, 2016
Thanks for sharing that DMB, I know it's harsh stuff to remember. I relate so much especially to being the one to apologise and sooth afterwards, it's real soul destroying stuff. I spent a long long time avoiding thinking about it and very rarely mentioned it but lately, I don't know, I seem to have turned a corner because it doesn't all feel so shameful or secretive anymore. I mean not that I'm shouting about it from the rooftops lol but seeing it as something that I need to heal properly, sure. Can't heal up a cut that still has a knife sticking out of it can you? Well, not very effectively. As long as I'm going along with the whole "its in the past, it wasn't a big deal" BS I think that keeps me stuck. Acknowledge, act...
And yet its still difficult and so much of that is STILL wanting to protect him from the consequences of his actions. Amazing how much work you find you still need to do on yourself just when you think you're all better and 'recovered" lol. No matter how many times I remind others that it's a lifelong journey I still seem to find myself periodically deciding I'm "all better" and it's time to move on with other things...ha.
I push al-anon away when I mistakenly start to focus on what other people think I 'should" do instead of using it to free myself from the negative tools and finding my path from within. A lesson I am going to need to learn over and over it seems! Thanks for the literature info I will look into it.
2HP said
Sep 23, 2016
I believe your post is asking us what we think motivates you to do what you're doing.... ?? I use the fellowship to help me with my perceptions too after all, they told me when I arrived that I had a dis-ease of perception. I read your post and I can tell you what I know about MYSELF, but only you know your truth. so take what you like and leave the rest.
When I read this, I was reminded of my people pleasing behaviors. I come from a dysfunctional alcoholic home so I was conditioned to be a people pleaser. If I wasn't pleasing the people in my home, love was withheld from me (!!!).... so FEAR motivates me to be a "yes" person. Self-care triggers GUILT in me because I was shamed for taking care of myself in the past, there was an expectation to put others first, I was expected to be a "nice" girl.
Al-Anon taught me to own my yes and no. When I'm afraid to say no, my yes means nothing because I walk away with a completely different set of feelings... telling all my friends how I REALLY feel about this, which is passive aggressive... afraid to tell the truth. If my yes is a lie, I am being dishonest. and it always backfires.
I work on myself in recovery because I want more peace in my life. I cannot begin to tell you how frightening it was for me to start saying no, the conditioning of the past is very, very strong. I've never forgotten my sponsor telling me, "Just act like you have some courage.. .. just ACT like it...."
Lol!!! it worked for me
And that reminds me of a meeting I was at once... and someone shared their experience of having to say no as, "MY TWENTY SECONDS OF INSANE COURAGE."
I can relate to that (((peace))) to you, my friend
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 23rd of September 2016 09:32:47 AM
I haven't physically seen xabf for maybe a couple of months now. Things were seemingly OK between us (I guess) and then he turned up one night drunk and demanding that I live with him again or break up. I thought it ended on 'break up' because he sent me a bunch of nasty messages and then blocked my number, skype etc for 2 weeks. I was sad, confused, threw a bit of a "I'm too sick to get out of bed" fit for a while and failed at life (because I was SO sad, gag) and then decided, you know what? I'm OK. I really am. This is right, this is how it's meant to be. We're finally over, bring on Mel's Life 2.0
Anyway he called a few weeks ago just as I was starting to feel OK (uncanny, huh?) and acted like nothing had ever happened. Oh wait, he dropped over for 5 minutes one day and he was really rude. So I lied when I said I haven't seen him but I didn't mean to, it was just such a non-event that I honestly forgot. *editing post for the sake of honesty.
Since then he's called maybe once a week, and we have nothing to say to each other. "Hi, hi, how are you, ok, ok then, thats good, hmm, haha, so I better go". We literally have nothing to say. It's so awkward.
I don't feel happy to hear from him. My heart sinks. But he ends these calls with "I love you" and I reply in kind. And I don't. I really don't anymore. I feel a little guilty, a lot of lonely, but not love. But I can't seem to say it, and I can't seem to not answer the phone. I feel paralysed.
And I don't know why I can't say it. Last night he called, drunk, and said he wanted to come over for a few days (my daughter is away for 2 weeks and he knows it). I said maybe, I'll get back to you, but I can't think of anything worse actually. I have nothing to say to him. I know I can't, I know I don't want to, I just don't know how to say it. I know what words I should use, I just don't know how to be alright with saying them. They won't come out of my fearful codependent mouth.
It's really confusing and I know it must sound absolutely alien to most people. I know this isn't a comfortable topic but we were together for 10 years and there was a lot of drunken physical abuse. I mean a lot. Broken bones, black eyes, really awful stuff. I mean it was really bad, but when I was close to it, I couldn't see it clearly. I loved him so much, or whatever it was. Love, obsession, trauma bonding, who knows what it really was. It felt like a movie; it didn't seem real. I needed him for whatever reason. I couldn't let go. You and me babe against the world and all of that crap.
The longer we are apart, the more clearly I can see it and the more it horrifies me. How did I do that to myself? How did I willfully let myself be harmed over and over again? We've lived apart for 2 years now and funnily enough, he hasn't hurt me for 2 years. And he really has been good, and helpful, and reasonable for those 2 years, but he's still a complete and utter dick when he's drunk, and he's drunk a lot, and I know if I ever put myself in the position of living with him again it would start up again. Probably worse than ever, I think. I suspect he's got a lot of rage to take out on me for making him live away for 2 years. Maybe not when he's sober, he doesn't think that way when he's sober but as soon as he's drunk enough and the switch flips, I think, maybe, this time it would be catastrophic. That's a pretty massive shoe I'd be waiting to hear drop. There's just no way. I can see clearly enough now to know that it could actually be the end of my life, and I'm not a fan of that scenario these days. I'm not "all there" yet, but I do finally know that I enjoy being alive a lot more than I enjoy being an actor in a psychotic tele-drama.
The way I see things now, I don't want that ever again. Even if he never hurt me again, even if I could be absolutely sure of that, if I love someone now it's going to be someone that never did, could or would hurt me, drunk or not. I'm sure of that.
So why can't I say it. It's almost done, I mean the bandaid is almost off. Why do I keep I stickytaping it back on?
The idea of hurting him after he's been "so good" for 2 years is really upsetting. But the idea of how much I have been hurt is also upsetting, in a white hot rage sort of way. My thinking is so messed up. I'm really bad at managing danger because my instinct is "be polite, don't upset people". And there's a whole lot of other stuff I guess, the finality of it, what if it's a mistake, what if he's better, what if, what if, what if. What if I still love him and it hurts. That's the big one, I guess. The one I don't want to even look at.
Now "just get rid of him, kick his ass" etc isn't what I need to hear because if I was built to respond like that I would have done it after a year, 2 years, 10 years. I'm obviously a bit of a broken unit because I have never done self-preservation well.
I just don't know how to rip off the bandaid once and for all. I mean, I know how to say the words, but I don't know how to be alright with them. The guilt is suffocating. The fear of being alone forever isn't all that s-hot either.
I'm also pretty pissy that he broke up with me and I got through it and now I'm still in this position. ffs when does the torture end.
Thanks for listening.
-- Edited by MissM on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 03:03:17 AM
Thanks A41. Your faith in me is encouraging. I actually did try saying it out loud after reading that. Nothing exploded and I wasn't struck by lightening. So maybe...
Stumbling blocks:
He says, he has only stayed in this state for the last 2 years because I said, we would get back together. That's partially true; I said, if we both sorted out our crap I would discuss living together again, in the future, when my daughter finished school and I finished my degree. He feels he has sorted out his crap because he works again, has a car, and has not beaten or terrorised me for 2 years. In fact he's been really nice, kind and good. When sober. And kudos to him, he really is doing well. But it's not exactly what I meant. I don't even expect that he get sober, because how can you expect that? People do what they do because that's what they want to do. What I wanted, before we could begin a dialogue about being together again was for him to acknowledge that violence towards me is not OK and undertake some kind of counselling or something. I mean I didn't think it would work, I guess, but I stipulated over and over that until he could get real about the violence and admit to it and try to take action, we would have nothing to discuss. He still wants to just "leave it in the past" and throws a tantrum if I try to mention it. Problem way, way not solved. Still, as he sees it, he's "put his life on hold" for 2 years and I've lied to him and "kept him hanging on". Maybe I have, I don't know. It's a stupid discussion because I really doubt he would have gone anywhere other than to his brother's anyway. And how much of our relationship was based on "if you don't do what i say, I'll move interstate and you'll never see me again". It's why I ended up living with him in the first place, when i really didn't want to. It went on for years. So eff that old chestnut.
Stumbling block no. 2 is a little bit smaller and yet bigger. And definitely stupider.
In our decade together, he never gave me a gift, not ever. His reason was, every time he gave a gift to a girlfriend, she left him shortly after. Heartbreaking story, huh. So we both turned 40 in July and he gave me a gift for the first time ever. And now, ........ and as dumb as it sounds, I am really struggling with that one.
God I need therapy.
-- Edited by MissM on Thursday 22nd of September 2016 03:48:49 AM
I think sometimes we're tempted to believe that finally we're seeing the real person (and that person is a caring person). Like, a gift after all that time - what you always yearned for. I know that so well because I've had exactly that issue with people (men who have never given me a gift, because basically they're withholding and self-absorbed).
The thing is: what do we want? A man who doesn't give any gifts for 12 years, and then finally does give one (while also claiming that it's my fault that they're living where they do and that therefore I "owe" him being with him)? Or a man who is functional and healthy and warm and who gives gifts as a matter of course all along the way, just because he's a normal regular affectionate person? It's really the latter, isn't it?
I had so much trouble breaking up with a longterm boyfriend because it was like playing a slot machine. I had invested so much that it was very painful to walk away without the payout. If I walked away, I had to face the fact that that was the story and, as the saying goes, "that's all she wrote." If I stayed, I could numb myself by thinking that someday it was all going to turn around and the investment would be worth the pain. I didn't really think that out explicitly, but I could kind of put off the day of reckoning. There was so much anger and sorrow in there that I didn't want to have to process it. So I just accumulated more.
Getting back to seeing the "real" person - acting more affectionate and caring when there's more distance is classic manipulative dysfunctional behavior. They try to keep us on the lead by alternately being generous (manipulatively generous, but it's so unusual that we're touched and thrilled by it however it comes) and wheedling - "You owe me! You said! This is your fault! I wouldn't be X or Y except that you insisted! And you've led me on all this time! I can't believe it!" And then as they withdraw, our reflex action to make peace kicks in and we're all trying to be warm and friendly and conciliatory, and then sometimes we give ground that we don't mean to.
Behind the scenes you know what's really going on. Keep on taking good care of yourself.
And you're right. I mean, I even know he's being nice now and it will cease within days if I put myself in a vulnerable position with him again. And it's still hard. I mean he's put in all of this time and effort.
Gah. Gah I tell you.
A few days after the break-up, I felt so much better. I look back now on things that happened between us (never any physical abuse, but a lot of lies and secrets on his end and a lot of his behavior that I didn't like but never spoke up about on my end) and I think WTF? Why did I let that go? Why did I tolerate it? That's not who I am. It sounds like that's one of the things you are telling yourself, too.
I'm waiting for him to come by and pick up a lot of stuff that he has at my house -- I'm hoping he will just come and do it when I'm not here. Part of me wants to have some kind of conversation with him and end in peace, but at the same rate, I know I won't be able to trust or believe anything he says. However, I have zero anger at him (from afar, it might be different if I really did see him).
For me, knowing that I feel better and more myself now, alone, than I did when I was with him (and obsessively/compulsively thinking about him and what he was doing every moment that we weren't together), and that's a pretty clear answer for me. Facts not feeling is a good slogan for me here -- even though I (or you) might have felt he'll get better, he means it this time, etc -- the fact of the matter is that the guy is an addict/alcoholic and that's the life and the behavior he chooses. I don't think he's ever going to ask to get back together with me - and I don't think he realizes that sometimes I imagine that happening -- if he did, I'd have to have at least a year on my own to work on my own recovery, and I don't think I would be able to get back together with him unless he admitted he had a problem and went into recovery (which would be so good for him and I hope he'd do it for his sake).
Anyway, I saw another post where a wise person on this board said "it sounds like your man is getting the natural consequences of his actions". That's the case for my ex-fella too (not just with me, with other things). And with your ex, also. If either of us were to get back with our guys, we'd get the natural consequences of our actions, too. If you re-read your post and imagine that someone else wrote it, would you advise that woman to go back to a man who treated her so bad, who she has nothing to say to anymore, and who she thinks might kill her?
Glad I brought this here.
He has stuff in my shed, so that's another thing. I don't want to see him. Also I want my keys back.
More gah.
I think one of the questions on the al-anon brochure "Do you think you grew up in an alcoholic home?" is "Did your parents tell you your family was special/different?" -- something like that. I am absolutely prone to that thinking. And I believe the al-anon/AA response is a dope slap -- because that tool is used to make tawdry, ugly, undignified alcoholic behavior seem somehow charming and special. My parents used that tool and it sure did work on me, because now I use it -- but thanks to al-anon, I can catch myself using it (some of the time). My bf hitch-hiking bc he has no money, taking jobs where he won't be drug tested, leaving his kid home alone, not trusting anyone -- this is not charming.
Something I need to work on is learning to love ordinary, drama-free life. Or to find drama/excitement in nature -- like watching the grass grow or something. I've become used to being in a state of hyper-stimulation from all the drama (and my part in it is the obsessive thinking about him and twisting myself in knots to get his attention), that's it's gonna take a while for me to dial it down and find peace. But it's already happening. I don't wake up thinking about him anymore, and I go HOURS without him going through my mind. I even see his stuff here now and don't even think anything -- at first I kept thinking "he's gotta get that out of here NOW" and now I don't even care when it happens.
Anyway, good luck.
I urge you to make your asset and gratitude list, daily, pray for courage and wisdom and trust HP for the guidance you need to "Let go and Let God." There is a gracious solution to this seemingly impossible dilemma and being open to the still small voice within will direct your actions. It has worked for me.
Your new picture is lovely.
And, has he said what he would do if he gets back together with you? If he just "being nice" so he can get back together and be the way he was before? My wife went for a couple months without drinking once just to prove she could do it. but once those were up, she was back at it. She could get through the two months by saying "it's only two months, I will have what I want once I prove I don't need it". He could go for two years to show that he is now "a nice guy", but will he be back at it again when he is back in your life? I think your boundaries are very good, and if he won't have any counseling, etc then he is just showing that violence is not acknowledged by him as a problem. Which is definitely a problem for you.
And Betty is right, you have come a long way!
Kenny
I guess after so many years of intensive training (brainwashing) in keeping the peace it is difficult to knowingly step up and say something that might well rock the boat. We are more used to tying ourselves up in knots to keep the peace for others and easily forget that our own peace is our responsibility me-thinks!
Difference now being that you are stronger than you think and you know what the hook looks like.
How is the course going by the way? I'm starting mine this November!
Paul you're quite right, one foot in front of the other works a lot better than sitting and contemplating how to jump a mile (and not doing it).
eim I don't have hope for today actually, I only have c2c currently. But I am hunting around online as I bet I bet I can find the page you suggest paraphrased somewhere.
Milkwood I think you're right; if I don't take care of my own peace who will? Crazy how instinctive it is to put someone else's comfort first, especially when it's someone who also always puts their comfort first. Nuts!
The course is going OK; I've been...distracted...but I'll arrive on schedule all the same. I've been absorbed in writing a book which really takes the sting out of everything but doesn't pay bills or get me a degree unfortunately lol. What course are you starting? How exciting!!!!!
"Talking openly and honestly with my family members is difficult and at times downright painful. Saying to people I love that I'm no longer willing to be around their intense negative energy is a frightening experience. Sometimes I'm afraid I'll have to separate from my family members to maintain my quest for healthy living, especially when they deny and justify their unacceaptable beahvior.
I'm aware that I still want the people I love to change and mature, so that I can be more comfortable. I am also aware that this may or may not happen. Today it's okay for me to want this to happen. However, I am slolwly learning that trying to change some else's behavior to suit my needs is an exercise in futility and frustration. Truly profound power and peace lie in the ability to change my behavior to suit my needs.
Thought for the day: With the help of Al-Anon, I can accept people as they are and find serenity, even if I"m the only one who changes.
'We need to recover, and, when we do, we sometimes find that others are motivated to get better, too; -- from "Does She Drink Too Much?, p.4 "
Hi Mel,
I've really missed you here lately. Of course, I can't say I have been here as much either...so I guess I need to be back too...lol
Anyway, I just read your post and I think I started here after you shared about the physical abuse. I really didn't know it had gotten that bad. I'm so very sorry you (and your daughter) felt you had to live with that in your life. It reminds me of a Netflix documentary on right now that I watched this week. I literally sat there and cried for the women it featured.
I have lived with physical abuse with husband #1 and have accepted way too much from other men as well. My RAH is now 17 1/2 months sober (and working his program hard). Because of the program, I have seen empathy come from a man who never even understood what the word meant. I'm wondering if this is an emotion you have ever witnessed from the X abf??? I'm betting it is something you have in spades though because you are truly good and kind and loving. Yes, we have each made some poor choices and I do understand the link between people that happens when there is abuse. It is like the us against the world thing you mentioned before because you have a secret between you that you are too ashamed to tell anyone else about. At least that is what my link was for sure. Love....well I didn't really know what love was then and I can say now that love does have ups and downs and that love is giving more than you take (but that applies to both people). The wife gives and the husband gives and each takes less than they give, which means it all works out in the end. Sometimes I give 110% and sometimes he gives 110%. Of course that means the other is only putting in 90% at that time, but it works itself out.
This give and take took me a long, long time to learn and an even longer time to put into practice.
For me in my first marriage *age 19* it was like this: I was working, going to school, cooking, cleaning, washing clothes...and oops, I forgot ketchup on the table (or whatever, but ketchup is a beating I'll never forget). Then he was angry, really really angry because I was so selfishness to have not had the ketchup waiting for him....never mind that I have never eaten ketchup and would not have ever had it in my house except for his use of it. So then I say I'll go run to the store and pick some up, but that is the wrong thing to say because I must be meeting someone else or I did it on purpose so his food would be cold.
He starts to eat, but hates the food without his precious ketchup. Since the verbal abuse has already started, I'm already in tears, I am ruining his supper or have already ruined it...take your pick. Then the first slap or push happens and/or the food gets thrown down and that feeling of "oh s..." hits and I'm starting to get scared. Then comes the "look what you made me do now" followed by a few more physical things and some more nasty name calling and criticism of cooking, cleaning, poor housekeeping skills (just look at the food all over the place), not making myself up (with makeup and clothes suitable for his presence), then some more of the ketchup comments...like how I did it on purpose just to make him angry because I know how much it means to him to have a wife who loves him and wants him to have a nice meal. Then it's on to more physical and verbal junk. Now it's to the "you knew this was going to happen" "you do this to upset me" all while I'm trying my best to be quiet and not cry (no matter what) and then depending on his mood it gets really bad or he goes to a chair in a corner and sits there crying like a 3 year old boy about how I made him do it and how it wasn't his fault and he is so sorry and he can't live without me and blah, blah, blah and what happens to me???? I feel guilty and say it's ok and I'll do better next time and I take responsibility for him beating me and I am the person who feels bad and cleans up the mess and hides the bruises and yes, he has to have make up sex, which often constitutes rape and that is ok because he is happy because I showed him he is loved. Then we hide things from the world because I am the most wonderful, best person ever and I really did prove that I loved him no matter what.
OMG, I hate even remembering this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!
I also remember the day I got out and how hard it was and I remember feeling so strange and making so many poor choices after that because I was so very, very damaged. I get it Mel. I truly do!
And, I promise there is another side to all of this, but it is very hard to see the light when you are still in the shadows. I promise that the little bit of light you see is a great big world of sunshine and flowers if you just give yourself a chance to enjoy it. You can do this because there is no question that you don't want to go back to where you were and how you were living. I know this and so do you.
I saw where you mentioned you only have courage to change. Well I only had that one and the blue book for a long, long time. But, I went on ebay a couple of weeks ago and found a ton of options. I actually bought darn near everything ever made for Alanon and certainly everything that is CAL (which I only recently learned was conference approved literature) lol.
The books were quite cheap *used* and I got them for around $3.50 each. Shipping is often combined if you ask and order from the same company and also several companies have the buy 2, get 1 free program too. I used each and every program and spent less on all of them than I would have on even one or two at regular price. Be careful of Ebay Goodwill online because they overprice on these books and sell pamphlets as books :( but the other companies were great. Also, at the local Goodwill I found a couple for literally fifty cents. That was a great deal for sure.
I just thought I would point this out so you would have options. I was surprised how different some of the books were and how much information they contained.
OK...enough with the novel. I'm just glad you are back and I believe in you!!!!! You can do this!!!!
And yet its still difficult and so much of that is STILL wanting to protect him from the consequences of his actions. Amazing how much work you find you still need to do on yourself just when you think you're all better and 'recovered" lol. No matter how many times I remind others that it's a lifelong journey I still seem to find myself periodically deciding I'm "all better" and it's time to move on with other things...ha.
I push al-anon away when I mistakenly start to focus on what other people think I 'should" do instead of using it to free myself from the negative tools and finding my path from within. A lesson I am going to need to learn over and over it seems! Thanks for the literature info
I believe your post is asking us what we think motivates you to do what you're doing.... ?? I use the fellowship to help me with my perceptions too after all, they told me when I arrived that I had a dis-ease of perception. I read your post and I can tell you what I know about MYSELF, but only you know your truth. so take what you like and leave the rest.
When I read this, I was reminded of my people pleasing behaviors. I come from a dysfunctional alcoholic home so I was conditioned to be a people pleaser. If I wasn't pleasing the people in my home, love was withheld from me (!!!).... so FEAR motivates me to be a "yes" person. Self-care triggers GUILT in me because I was shamed for taking care of myself in the past, there was an expectation to put others first, I was expected to be a "nice" girl.
Al-Anon taught me to own my yes and no. When I'm afraid to say no, my yes means nothing because I walk away with a completely different set of feelings... telling all my friends how I REALLY feel about this, which is passive aggressive... afraid to tell the truth. If my yes is a lie, I am being dishonest. and it always backfires.
I work on myself in recovery because I want more peace in my life. I cannot begin to tell you how frightening it was for me to start saying no, the conditioning of the past is very, very strong. I've never forgotten my sponsor telling me, "Just act like you have some courage.. .. just ACT like it...."
Lol!!! it worked for me
And that reminds me of a meeting I was at once... and someone shared their experience of having to say no as, "MY TWENTY SECONDS OF INSANE COURAGE."
I can relate to that (((peace))) to you, my friend
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 23rd of September 2016 09:32:47 AM