Over the last two days I've had some very confusing arguments with my AH. When I think about it it started after I came home from my meeting and told him that my group had helped me to make amends with my mother. He expressed his frustration that he had listened to me complain about my mother all weekend and he didn't get any credit and I came home and I gave all the credit to my group. So I thanked him for this and told him that it was helpful as well. Then he went on to list a series of things that I had let him down in so many ways. It was a very hurtful tirade that came out of nowhere. One of his examples was that I hadn't been supportive of him around a medical condition he's been experiencing over the last 6 months. I feel like I've been very supportive about this medical issue and I was caught off guard by these angry accusations. We got into a really unhealthy argument and we ended it before it exploded last night. I waited until tonight when I was feeling more peaceful to approach him about it. I asked him how I could be more supportive around his medical issue and how I had not been supportive. He told me he felt like I didn't want to hear about his medical issue and try to change the subject. I disagreed and clarified that I did want to hear about it and i asked him what i could do more of that would be helpful. Then I asked him what could I do to make it better he told me he didn't know. Then he told me that he didn't even want to talk to me about it. When I asked him why he didn't want to talk to me about it he told me that he just didn't feel suppoted so he didnt talk to me about it or bring it up in our regular relationship talks and in fact had been holding this all back for 6months. I felt very manipulated by his behavior. He was very angry and he had no Solutions and we talk every week about any issues we have and he never told me that this was an issue. I told him to think about what I could do and then I'll be open to listening to it if I could help him. I also told him I was sorry he held it in for 6 months but if he's not going to share things with me I can't address them. I feel like my AH gets into a really bad Funk from time to time. It's almost as if the angry mean drunk inside him comes out even when he's sober. The positives about this argument are that I was able to maintain my cool even when I heard very inflammatory things including him discussing divorce which I've never heard him discuss with me before. I felt that small inner voice telling me to keep my calm and reminding me of the do not justify argue defend or explain slogan (JADE). I've never felt that before in the midst of such a hurtful argument. I am so thankful to the program for that. I was able to end the argument before it got out of hand this time. I am however very heartbroken at the conversation we had. I used to respond by doing anything to get him to love me again to convince him that he didn't feel the way he is saying he feels or to chase him around to argue withat him until he gave in. I can see now how that doesn't help anything. And although the thought of getting a divorce and not seeing my child all the time breaks my heart into tiny little pieces. I know that I can't live this way and keep convincing someone to love me. If we are supposed to get divorced we will get divorced. So right now I'm just doing my best to hang in keep whatever peace I have and try to calm the anxiety that I'm feeling. Thanks for reading. Tonight I am handing it over to my Higher Power.
-- Edited by KT2015 on Tuesday 20th of September 2016 08:26:18 PM
jojo8466 said
Sep 20, 2016
I think he was taken aback when you actually asked him to tell you how you can be more supportive and how had you not been supportive with his medical issue - he realized at that point you had been supportive and more than willing to help him but he didn't want to admit he was wrong so he just said he didn't want to talk about it.
I find myself not being as caring as I should to my husband when he is "ill". I think after so many years of marriage (28 years for me) I've just come to the conclusion that there is always something wrong with him...headache, sinus infection, cold, back hurts, head hurts, allergies blah, blah, blah everyday there is something he is complaining about in regards to his health. I get sick of hearing it and eventually I just tune him out.
I don't know if your husband is the hypochondriac that I think mine is but if so I can totally relate to maybe not coming across as "caring" as they would like us to be.
pinkchip said
Sep 20, 2016
I had that argument almost word for word a million times over with my ex-A. I could go all deep and explain where I believe this comes from with either an active A or dry drunk but it wouldn't matter much. Just know you aren't alone and your course of action will be revealed....
KT2015 said
Sep 20, 2016
thank you it helps to know I'm not alone.
2HP said
Sep 20, 2016
"Poor me, poor me, pour me another drink."
Fights became common after I began Al-Anon too, he was sensing loss of control over me which is bad news because an alcoholic needs enablers. I learned that I had the option of NOT fighting.... it takes two to step into the ring, and there is no fight if I'm not putting boxing gloves on. I'd just walk away.
And yep, that's when his threats of divorce popped up regularly, they are master manipulators, it was a control tactic to scare me back into my old role, get me back in line.
I remember putting "our marriage" and "our future together" in my God Box, I let go of needing to know. God is everything or nothing, I get to decide. After I decided that God was everything, I could relax.
pinkchip said
Sep 20, 2016
The "You didn't support me!!!" argument is a common alcoholic ploy taking advantage our the codependent alanoners soft spot which is actually caring and supporting too much if anything. Mind games. Kinda evil. Alcoholism/Dry Drunky 101.
Iamhere said
Sep 20, 2016
(((KT))) - so sorry for the arguments....I am sending you positive thoughts and prayers. Denial and defection run deep within the disease - no doubt about that! I also know that when I started getting better, and things started changing, my qualifiers really didn't like the changes. Like you, I just kept pulling out tools and trying them. After some time, when I got better at reacting they stopped picking fights - it wasn't fun any more and they began to 'see' that I wouldn't take on their issues any longer.
I was never mean and I even said several times that I really don't want to argue. I also remember telling each of them at different times that I am not the enemy (as I felt that they saw me that way!!). I stayed really quiet many times to keep from arguing or reacting. As I got better, things got better. We're far from perfect, but I'm good with progress!
Keep doing you - you're doing great!
MidnightOwl said
Sep 21, 2016
KT2015 - Sorry to hear about the fight but I applaud you in your ability to remain calm and choose to not engage when it isn't healthy to. That level of detachment is important to objectively view all the manipulation that can occur, it's difficult but vital to witness. Thanks for the share <3
el-cee said
Sep 21, 2016
Isn't his blaming and anger just a symptom of his disease? I was relieved to find out that I never had to take a hurt from this type of diversion tactic and to justify or defend etc validates it and therefore here we go again the drinking is firmly established. Continued safely in the knowledge that it's not his fault but in fact it's yours. Good trade off for a drinker. I can see the logic. It was harder for me to see why I allowed myself to be used for this purpose over and over. Alanon helped me see that I honestly believed I was that important and my self esteem was very low so any blame thrown my way was accepted by me. I was full of guilt anyway. I remember this cycle it lasted 20 Urswick for me. I felt so sorry for him and bought it all hook linew and sinker.
Then I didn't. This could come under that list called unacceptable behaviour and you could have a boundary for yourself and don't take part in it. You are entitled to a good life and to be treated with kindness and respect. Someone else's boohoo story is not your fault and never has been .
milkwood said
Sep 21, 2016
Well done on staying calm and I applaud you for practising the tools you've learnt and for your regular work on relationship catch ups as well.
I wish I had known years ago about how common the 'you weren't there for me' conversations/arguments were. I used to think it was just me who was such an unsupportive wife!!! If you think that you've helped your husband cope with medical issues then I'm inclined to believe that you probably have.
I agree with Pinkchip - these are someone else's mind games and it is just sad that the disease wants to feel hard done and to hurt people into its servitude. It takes strength to rise above that and ignore the threats, however hollow they probably are.
One time when my husband was giving me this treatment I listened for a while, walked away and then sent him an email asking him to let me know when the hissy fit was over. I think that he appreciated that I didn't take it seriously. It sure can hurt though, and that is when I need to do something lovely for myself.
Sending (((((Hugs))))))
KT2015 said
Sep 21, 2016
You are all so amazing! Thank you so much. The responses have been so helpful. You know I went to a meeting that I'd never attended on Monday night and I hear "you deserve a good life" and it was so reassuring. I've been so manipulated into trying to please this disease away it has seriously affected my self esteem. I have bought into the whole you aren't there for me crap for so long its shocking really.
I feel stronger but not in the rage full fighty way I used to. It's more of a calm peaceful strength. I am taking extra good care of myself too which is suprising because in the past I used to torture myself and exhaust myself during these times. But Monday night I went out for a super healthy meal. I made myself a really great lunch yesterday for work and last night I went to the gym and had a great workout instead of obsessing about AH and the problem.
I've noticed lately I was slipping back into the attachment with AH and sitting around waiting for him to say what he wants to do. I was starting to skip workouts and eat more junk and I always feel worse when I do that. AND I usually am hard core about getting exercise. I was also building a lot of anxiety inside me. This has been a good thing because with him so angry and not talking to me it's forced me to put the focus back on myself. And what a relief it's been to turn it all over to my HP.
2HP said
Sep 21, 2016
Watching you work your program is such an inspiration!
You've got YOURSELF under the Pixar Lamp for starters, after all, it doesn't help to keep focus on the disease. You now understand your powerlessness over him and his behavior and when you forget/ fight it again, your life becomes unmanageable but you're catching yourself!! woo hoooooo Then I see you turn on self care (self-love) and to me, that is turning to Higher Power (God is LOVE) that's where the power is... LET IT BEGIN WITH ME
You are walking in some mighty fine Al-Anon shoes, girl, this is AWESOME
el-cee said
Sep 21, 2016
I agree 2HP, watching the growth here lately has been so good for my own recovery, your growth is also pretty inspirational. Thanks for sharing.x
Mirandac said
Sep 21, 2016
pinkchip wrote:
The "You didn't support me!!!" argument is a common alcoholic ploy taking advantage our the codependent alanoners soft spot which is actually caring and supporting too much if anything. Mind games. Kinda evil. Alcoholism/Dry Drunky 101.
Pink, i think you got me pegged along
with my XAH. It did not end well or get
better even with recovery Work.
(((((( hugs )))))))
Calm Lady said
Sep 21, 2016
As Pink says, is all mind games designed to keep us hooked in and feeling guilty.
Once I learnt this and started to remove myself and not 'play', my life got a lot better.
By default so did AHs as he had to face his drinking without big fights or games to hide behind.
It's all smoke and mirrors in the denial that alcohol itself is the real problem!
Once I learnt this, it became as obvious as if it had sirens and blue lights on it,!
Bethany66 said
Sep 21, 2016
I am reading through this thread just as I finished writing in my journal and I had written down something so similar to Calm Lady's last reply that I have to share. Mine is in the case of my AH taking a pause from drinking (at least publicly, that we can see). He does this on occasion to keep the illusion that he is controlling his drinking as opposed to the drinking controlling him. In his head he doesn't have a problem because he can stop when he wants to stop for days or even weeks at a time. I wrote "It's all smoke and mirrors that only works to continue the delusion that he does not have a drinking problem." Smoke and mirrors come in to play a lot at our house.
I too am using all my Al-Anon tools to extract myself from the false reality he has created and deal with life on life's terms but with dignity and grace and love.
Calm Lady said
Sep 21, 2016
Lovely share, Bethany. My goals are to live with dignity, love and grace too.
A wonderful way to live.
KT2015 said
Sep 21, 2016
Thank you I love that living with dignity love and grace!
El said
Sep 21, 2016
The stories and situations we read can be very sad and distressing. However, there are so many shares that are uplifting. We frequently are moved by phrases, and tweaks to slogans. I personally feel so blessed to have found the MIP board. Thanks to all of you for all the wisdom, compassion, humor and empathy every single day!! Although we'd rather not have to travel this particular journey, it is a pleasure to do so with you!
Over the last two days I've had some very confusing arguments with my AH. When I think about it it started after I came home from my meeting and told him that my group had helped me to make amends with my mother. He expressed his frustration that he had listened to me complain about my mother all weekend and he didn't get any credit and I came home and I gave all the credit to my group. So I thanked him for this and told him that it was helpful as well. Then he went on to list a series of things that I had let him down in so many ways. It was a very hurtful tirade that came out of nowhere. One of his examples was that I hadn't been supportive of him around a medical condition he's been experiencing over the last 6 months. I feel like I've been very supportive about this medical issue and I was caught off guard by these angry accusations. We got into a really unhealthy argument and we ended it before it exploded last night. I waited until tonight when I was feeling more peaceful to approach him about it. I asked him how I could be more supportive around his medical issue and how I had not been supportive. He told me he felt like I didn't want to hear about his medical issue and try to change the subject. I disagreed and clarified that I did want to hear about it and i asked him what i could do more of that would be helpful. Then I asked him what could I do to make it better he told me he didn't know. Then he told me that he didn't even want to talk to me about it. When I asked him why he didn't want to talk to me about it he told me that he just didn't feel suppoted so he didnt talk to me about it or bring it up in our regular relationship talks and in fact had been holding this all back for 6months. I felt very manipulated by his behavior. He was very angry and he had no Solutions and we talk every week about any issues we have and he never told me that this was an issue. I told him to think about what I could do and then I'll be open to listening to it if I could help him. I also told him I was sorry he held it in for 6 months but if he's not going to share things with me I can't address them. I feel like my AH gets into a really bad Funk from time to time. It's almost as if the angry mean drunk inside him comes out even when he's sober. The positives about this argument are that I was able to maintain my cool even when I heard very inflammatory things including him discussing divorce which I've never heard him discuss with me before. I felt that small inner voice telling me to keep my calm and reminding me of the do not justify argue defend or explain slogan (JADE). I've never felt that before in the midst of such a hurtful argument. I am so thankful to the program for that. I was able to end the argument before it got out of hand this time. I am however very heartbroken at the conversation we had. I used to respond by doing anything to get him to love me again to convince him that he didn't feel the way he is saying he feels or to chase him around to argue withat him until he gave in. I can see now how that doesn't help anything. And although the thought of getting a divorce and not seeing my child all the time breaks my heart into tiny little pieces. I know that I can't live this way and keep convincing someone to love me. If we are supposed to get divorced we will get divorced. So right now I'm just doing my best to hang in keep whatever peace I have and try to calm the anxiety that I'm feeling. Thanks for reading. Tonight I am handing it over to my Higher Power.
-- Edited by KT2015 on Tuesday 20th of September 2016 08:26:18 PM
I find myself not being as caring as I should to my husband when he is "ill". I think after so many years of marriage (28 years for me) I've just come to the conclusion that there is always something wrong with him...headache, sinus infection, cold, back hurts, head hurts, allergies blah, blah, blah everyday there is something he is complaining about in regards to his health. I get sick of hearing it and eventually I just tune him out.
I don't know if your husband is the hypochondriac that I think mine is but if so I can totally relate to maybe not coming across as "caring" as they would like us to be.
Fights became common after I began Al-Anon too, he was sensing loss of control over me which is bad news because an alcoholic needs enablers. I learned that I had the option of NOT fighting.... it takes two to step into the ring, and there is no fight if I'm not putting boxing gloves on. I'd just walk away.
And yep, that's when his threats of divorce popped up regularly, they are master manipulators, it was a control tactic to scare me back into my old role, get me back in line.
I remember putting "our marriage" and "our future together" in my God Box, I let go of needing to know. God is everything or nothing, I get to decide. After I decided that God was everything, I could relax.
I was never mean and I even said several times that I really don't want to argue. I also remember telling each of them at different times that I am not the enemy (as I felt that they saw me that way!!). I stayed really quiet many times to keep from arguing or reacting. As I got better, things got better. We're far from perfect, but I'm good with progress!
Keep doing you - you're doing great!
I wish I had known years ago about how common the 'you weren't there for me' conversations/arguments were. I used to think it was just me who was such an unsupportive wife!!! If you think that you've helped your husband cope with medical issues then I'm inclined to believe that you probably have.
I agree with Pinkchip - these are someone else's mind games and it is just sad that the disease wants to feel hard done and to hurt people into its servitude. It takes strength to rise above that and ignore the threats, however hollow they probably are.
One time when my husband was giving me this treatment I listened for a while, walked away and then sent him an email asking him to let me know when the hissy fit was over. I think that he appreciated that I didn't take it seriously. It sure can hurt though, and that is when I need to do something lovely for myself.
Sending (((((Hugs))))))
You've got YOURSELF under the Pixar Lamp for starters, after all, it doesn't help to keep focus on the disease. You now understand your powerlessness over him and his behavior and when you forget/ fight it again, your life becomes unmanageable but you're catching yourself!! woo hoooooo Then I see you turn on self care (self-love) and to me, that is turning to Higher Power (God is LOVE) that's where the power is... LET IT BEGIN WITH ME
You are walking in some mighty fine Al-Anon shoes, girl, this is AWESOME
Pink, i think you got me pegged along
with my XAH. It did not end well or get
better even with recovery Work.
(((((( hugs )))))))
Once I learnt this and started to remove myself and not 'play', my life got a lot better.
By default so did AHs as he had to face his drinking without big fights or games to hide behind.
It's all smoke and mirrors in the denial that alcohol itself is the real problem!
Once I learnt this, it became as obvious as if it had sirens and blue lights on it,!
I too am using all my Al-Anon tools to extract myself from the false reality he has created and deal with life on life's terms but with dignity and grace and love.
A wonderful way to live.
The stories and situations we read can be very sad and distressing. However, there are so many shares that are uplifting. We frequently are moved by phrases, and tweaks to slogans. I personally feel so blessed to have found the MIP board. Thanks to all of you for all the wisdom, compassion, humor and empathy every single day!! Although we'd rather not have to travel this particular journey, it is a pleasure to do so with you!
((((Hugs)))). Ellen