I was fortunate to hear an AA person share at our meeting today. About 10 years sober.
One thing that really hit home to me and helped me a lot is how they don't obsess about us. They really don't. They obsess about booze. In many ways we (al-anoners) are irrelevant to them.
This was so very helpful for me to hear. I knew it inside but great to hear it loud and clear.
This reinforces to me that I need to live MY program and focus on making my life good.
Jerry F said
Sep 19, 2016
Isn't that crazy?? We do the obsession for everyone else and detach leaving us to us. LOL I missed that or else it would have been one more thing to go insane about. ((((hugs))))
Iamhere said
Sep 19, 2016
Great share Calm Lady....that's so spot on to my recall as well. I often hear Al-Anoner's thinking their qualifier is drinking because of them or why don't they think of me before they drink? I've not yet met an alcoholic that drank to spite or hurt others - it's was just an obsession and seemed like a good idea at the time. I have heard from some who've relapsed that they thought with the AA knowledge gained, they would be able to 'just have one/two.'...this has never, ever been a good idea based on shared post relapse.
Thanks for bringing this forward. (((Hugs)))
hotrod said
Sep 19, 2016
Great awareness Thanks
e_i_m said
Sep 19, 2016
That is really helpful, Calm Lady. My ex-abf once said to me something to the effect of everyone else thinks things he does are about them and they never are. Yeah, we al-anons certainly have plenty of obsessiveness (I sure do, anyway). Sigh.
MidnightOwl said
Sep 19, 2016
Great points here. I totally obsess over my AH unless I'm actively detaching/reminding myself not to obsess :) For me, I'm pretty sure it's about wanting to control the situation, so my brain goes on over drive trying to find solutions, knowing the person inside and out etc. I notice I do this to a lesser degree with friends as well, I am more controlling then I realized before. I'm working on it as best I can and I do feel better when I focus on myself. It can be scary though, because I've done very little self focus most of my life I have a LOT to get to know, heh.
CH_Husband_Dad said
Sep 19, 2016
Calm Lady wrote:
They obsess about booze. In many ways we (al-anoners) are irrelevant to them.
I guess I am going to share a different perspective. This seems kind of sad to me.
Why are we in relationships with people who find us irrelevant?
As much progress as I think I have made over the last few weeks, I am scared that this really does explain my AW. This is why she seems to have more compassion and intimacy with people from rehab than with me.
I understand if the alcoholic is your parent, sibling, or child. But a spouse is supposed to be your life partner. Maybe this only applies to active users and people in early recovery? If not then I might have to say that I deserve someone who finds me relevant.
-- Edited by CH_Husband_Dad on Monday 19th of September 2016 09:25:14 PM
hotrod said
Sep 19, 2016
I do not think that AA members find their partners irrelevant but their obsession is with alcohol and We focus on our obsession which is other people. AA members lives depend on supporting each other so that they learn early on to be supportive of each other and seemingly neglect their families. After a few years this changes.
CH_Husband_Dad said
Sep 19, 2016
hotrod wrote:
I do not think that AA members find their partners irrelevant but their obsession is with alcohol and we focus on our obsession which is other people. AA members lives depend on supporting each other so that they learn early on to be supportive of each other and seemingly neglect their families. After a few years this changes.
Ok. I edited my post with a question which you already answered here. Thank you.
Calm Lady said
Sep 19, 2016
Many thanks for the shares. I think my overall takeaway was that I needed to work on myself. Why I was attracted repeatedly to partners whe were like this. Which I see as positive as I know I can change myself.
Iamhere said
Sep 20, 2016
CH - trying to understand early recover will make you mad. If she's doing what she's been told to do, she will hang with sober people, attend as many meetings as possible, get a sponsor, work the steps, etc. It is not for any reason other than taking life one day at a time without returning to old patterns/habits. I know that when I expressed concern about being selfish in recovery, old-timers would tell me it was a selfish program and a selfish process BUT my life depended upon working the program to the best of my ability.
When I got sober 28 years ago (I was a young gal back then), I was in a long-term relationship. He tried to the best of his ability to understand, quit drinking and partying and 'hovered' over me. In all honesty, it drove me perfectly crazy as I was trying so hard to do what I was told to do. I felt extreme guilt and a pull between the program and him. I had to let him go and focus on me. If only he had found his own recovery, and worked harder to give me the space I required, it may have been different. Instead, he was needy, codependent and felt neglected. Those were his issues, not mine and I could not be true to me (as told was necessary) and be true to him.
When I came to Al-Anon for my qualifiers, I truly thought that when the substance was removed, all would be well. I was way off the mark and now do not expect ever a close relationship with my AH or my A Sons. I had to let go of what I thought it should look like and just allow things to unfold as they do/are/will. I learned through the program that my expectations were unrealistic and nobody could meet my needs except my HP and me.
Calm Lady's post above me says it all - the takeaway is we need to work on ourselves and allow recovery to happen. Trying to impose our will only leads us to more pain and frustration. When I was active in the disease, I intentionally pushed away good people. As I progressed in recovery, I surrounded myself with safe people. As more time passed, and I felt more comfortable in my skin, I expanded my circle. Not all who love/loved me before recovery were safe - especially in the beginning. Recovery takes a daily commitment and selfish choices, and I was told time and time again that nothing and nobody could/should ever take priority over my program.
CH_Husband_Dad said
Sep 20, 2016
Iamhere,
Is it not fair to say that life is short and if I have intimacy needs that can't be fulfilled (not talking sex) then I owe it to myself to do what is right for me?
I understand that it takes time but at some point I have to go after what I need in life. It is complicated because we have a child (and a special needs one at that) and that would be strongly taken into consideration but there's a point to where I am going to demand the intimacy I see her giving to relative strangers she met in rehab.
Maybe some alcoholics are just selfish people to begin with. Maybe for some alcoholism didn't cause the selfishness but the selfishness allowed them to lose control of their lives without regards to others. Maybe focusing on myself means looking for the life I deserve and that means abandoning my fear of being alone.
Maybe I'm just being negative today. I don't know. I understand that I shouldn't be making major life decisions right now and I fully agree with that.
2HP said
Sep 20, 2016
Great thread. To me, it's about what every person walking on the planet tries to use to fill the big empty void inside.
It can ONLY be filled by Higher Power but it took hitting a bottom with it time and time again to do some surrendering. People are not powerful enough to meet soul needs, humans are limited but God is not. God is the only real joy.
Step two begged me to ask myself what I had previously used as a Higher power and I hated the obvious answers.... my alcoholic husband and his crazy mother. I sought their attention, acceptance and love for years!!! I sought the approval of people I didn't even approve of.
Calm Lady said
Sep 20, 2016
2HP wrote:
I sought the approval of people I didn't even approve of.
Wow! Light bulb just gone on. YES. Absolutely.
The object of my obsession was usually a person that I didn't like!!! Wouldn't have wanted to spend time with them but I would be obsessed about getting their approval.
Insane.
Thank you for your share 2HP.
I have heard it described as making the person your Higher Power. This was accurate for me. I now have a proper and appropriate Higher Power.
Iamhere said
Sep 20, 2016
CH - I believe that perceptions and perspectives matter as well. When I was in my 20(s), I walked away from a marriage as it got too hard. As I look back, the problem was not the marriage, the problem was me. I too was selfish, self-centered and not full-blown in my disease. Later that same decade, I walked away from the relationship I speak of above. Again, at the time it was the right thing to do as my life depended upon it.
As I got sober, worked the 12 Steps and began to look at me, my needs, my wants, my fears, my insecurities, etc. I discovered I was as selfish as my AH and my A sons. I wanted them to be what I expected them to be. I never stopped to consider they may not want that or be able to be that.
I see no issues with anybody making moves in their live(s) that work towards a better path or journey. As I look back now, I was a reactive person often/always. I was all about me when things got tough. I felt I had every right to seek out what I needed. These are all valid points, but what I never stopped to process was what about the other person? What are their needs? Am I expecting more from them than they are from me? Do I ever know what they expect of me? How different are our values?
I'm in my 50s now and my life experience with ALL my relationships has taught me that it will never be perfect. My needs will never bet met by another person, despite their best efforts. All people are on their best behavior for the first 2+ years. Most will then settle in and start showing true patterns. After 25 years of marriage, my AH still surprises me at times with things I didn't know, hadn't noticed or just because.
I don't view love as a feeling. I view love as a decision. After one failed marriage, which I was the one who walked - he wanted to work on things - I swore I would never get married again. Then I met my AH, and committed to him. There were others between them. I was always looking for what was wrong in the relationship vs. what was right. My AH had also been divorced. We were both deeply affected by our divorces, and when we committed to marry, we both agreed we would not divorce. We promised that and we've stayed true to that.
We did not promise each other we would never drink again - we were sober 6/7 years when we married. We promised to fight for the marriage and to never divorce. I have no doubt he's been unfaithful, and he's been actively drinking for the last 15+ years. I know it has nothing to do with me and is his disease and his demons.
So - my experience is until I got healthy and grounded in personal recovery - I kept having the same let-downs in my relationships. I had distorted views of what love was, what marriage was and what a life partner should 'be' to me and for me. When I was better able to define that and accept that we all have faults and are imperfect, I found I can be content in almost any/every setting around me.
To your question - you bet....you have every right to want or need what you want/need. My best answer is --- will anyone be able to be that for you? My picking rate was 0% until I changed, and I lowered my expectations from others. Just food for thought - take what you like and leave the rest. I will say - if I knew in my 20s that it was going to take me until 40ish to figure this stuff out, I would have stayed in my first marriage and worked on/for it.
Jerry F said
Sep 20, 2016
This has been a great post and discussion I can see clearer than when I logged on to it which I believe is what we do with and for each other. More and different perspectives allow me to pause before responding in my life to do more letting go and letting God , Thinking and when in doubting not responding or reacting. I can reflect and verify my past decisions without second guessing if they were the perfect or best responses. I did the best I could at the time with what I had at the time and have no regrets while I do have remorse. I was living and learning up to this moment and can continue to do it not relying only upon myself. Thank God and everyone else for bringing me into keeping me into and working the program. (((((hugs)))))
e_i_m said
Sep 20, 2016
CH Husband/Dad, I'm with you on this. I would much rather be alone than be in a relationship where I'm living a separate life with someone in the same house. I would love to be in a relationship with someone with shared goals, where we did things together and enjoyed coming home to each other each night or not even living together, but seeing each other regularly and talking about our lives and enjoying each other's company -- those are my relationship goals, which I think are *pretty minimal*. When I hear about people in relationships where they do everything separately and just co-habitate like roommates (alcoholics or not), I know that it's not for me. To each his own, and for those who are living that way, that works for them and god bless 'em, but I'm on a different path.
CH_Husband_Dad said
Sep 20, 2016
Iamhere wrote:
CH - I believe that perceptions and perspectives matter as well. When I was in my 20(s), I walked away from a marriage as it got too hard. As I look back, the problem was not the marriage, the problem was me. I too was selfish, self-centered and not full-blown in my disease. Later that same decade, I walked away from the relationship I speak of above. Again, at the time it was the right thing to do as my life depended upon it.
As I got sober, worked the 12 Steps and began to look at me, my needs, my wants, my fears, my insecurities, etc. I discovered I was as selfish as my AH and my A sons. I wanted them to be what I expected them to be. I never stopped to consider they may not want that or be able to be that.
I see no issues with anybody making moves in their live(s) that work towards a better path or journey. As I look back now, I was a reactive person often/always. I was all about me when things got tough. I felt I had every right to seek out what I needed. These are all valid points, but what I never stopped to process was what about the other person? What are their needs? Am I expecting more from them than they are from me? Do I ever know what they expect of me? How different are our values?
I'm in my 50s now and my life experience with ALL my relationships has taught me that it will never be perfect. My needs will never bet met by another person, despite their best efforts. All people are on their best behavior for the first 2+ years. Most will then settle in and start showing true patterns. After 25 years of marriage, my AH still surprises me at times with things I didn't know, hadn't noticed or just because.
I don't view love as a feeling. I view love as a decision. After one failed marriage, which I was the one who walked - he wanted to work on things - I swore I would never get married again. Then I met my AH, and committed to him. There were others between them. I was always looking for what was wrong in the relationship vs. what was right. My AH had also been divorced. We were both deeply affected by our divorces, and when we committed to marry, we both agreed we would not divorce. We promised that and we've stayed true to that.
We did not promise each other we would never drink again - we were sober 6/7 years when we married. We promised to fight for the marriage and to never divorce. I have no doubt he's been unfaithful, and he's been actively drinking for the last 15+ years. I know it has nothing to do with me and is his disease and his demons.
So - my experience is until I got healthy and grounded in personal recovery - I kept having the same let-downs in my relationships. I had distorted views of what love was, what marriage was and what a life partner should 'be' to me and for me. When I was better able to define that and accept that we all have faults and are imperfect, I found I can be content in almost any/every setting around me.
To your question - you bet....you have every right to want or need what you want/need. My best answer is --- will anyone be able to be that for you? My picking rate was 0% until I changed, and I lowered my expectations from others. Just food for thought - take what you like and leave the rest. I will say - if I knew in my 20s that it was going to take me until 40ish to figure this stuff out, I would have stayed in my first marriage and worked on/for it.
Thanks for that. As for the last question, I don't think my expectations are too high. I think they're too high for the moment where we are in early recovery and I am beginning to understand that.
I'm not asking for a ton of intimacy. I just want a little bit. Grab my hand sometimes. Give me a hug or say "I love you." Don't always wait for me to do the little things.
And don't get me wrong, I am not giving up on my wife. It was as much a what if discussion.
I'm certainly not perfect in this regard. I'm not the most romantic person in the world.
Iamhere said
Sep 20, 2016
Keep asking questions CH - that's how we learn what others have done and/or have experienced. I can tell you - right, wrong or indifferent - I've never been a gal who initiates any form of intimacy. It's just a by-product of my FOO (family of origin). I just within the last 5-7 years got comfortable hugging my own parents/brothers/cousins, etc. Early recovery for me brought a ton of shame and fear. I was afraid of failing, afraid of succeeding, afraid of rejection, afraid of rejecting....bottom line - I was like a 13 year old all over again - as that's when I began my disease...
I hear you and understand - there will be a time when you will be able to calmly state exactly what you want/need and it will be received! It's the interval that's iffy/unknown! I'm almost uncomfortable with romance - it's just not something I've witnessed in real life...only on TV or in movies!
(((Hugs))) - keep coming back!
jitsuka said
Sep 21, 2016
Great understanding.
On this journey when I first discovered my partner was an A I used to do the arguments , the 'why why why' , searching for the bottles, obsessing about stuff.
Now I don't , it was part of the detaching, which is necessary if you are to keep yourself psychologically healthy.
It's saddening. I feel really sad of an evening (every evening) when my partner has obviously been drinking, it's very stressful - BUT I do not stress out as much. I feel sad and upset, but I don't obsess.
It's the lesser of 2 evils, but necessary to keep your awareness and start on the path of self-discovery and recovery yourself.
MissM said
Sep 21, 2016
"I sought the approval of people I didn't even approve of"- yeah, this speaks volumes to me today too. Nice one 2HP.
It still amazes me to think on how much of my time and energy I gave to obsessing over someone else, for nigh on 40 years of my life. It made me so miserable! So devoted to "how to make he/she happy" (and make them obsessed with me too maybe because that's what love is?) Trying to think someone else into change is the fastest way that I know of to go insane.
I've no idea what non-obsessive love feels like but I suspect I'll enjoy it when I find it. In the mean time, my head works a lot better when it's focused on things I can understand and improve (me).
Great topic CL.
hotrod said
Sep 21, 2016
MsM love your new picture as well as your shared wisdom.
I was fortunate to hear an AA person share at our meeting today. About 10 years sober.
One thing that really hit home to me and helped me a lot is how they don't obsess about us. They really don't. They obsess about booze. In many ways we (al-anoners) are irrelevant to them.
This was so very helpful for me to hear. I knew it inside but great to hear it loud and clear.
This reinforces to me that I need to live MY program and focus on making my life good.
Isn't that crazy?? We do the obsession for everyone else and detach leaving us to us. LOL I missed that or else it would have been one more thing to go insane about. ((((hugs))))
Thanks for bringing this forward. (((Hugs)))
That is really helpful, Calm Lady. My ex-abf once said to me something to the effect of everyone else thinks things he does are about them and they never are. Yeah, we al-anons certainly have plenty of obsessiveness (I sure do, anyway). Sigh.
I guess I am going to share a different perspective. This seems kind of sad to me.
Why are we in relationships with people who find us irrelevant?
As much progress as I think I have made over the last few weeks, I am scared that this really does explain my AW. This is why she seems to have more compassion and intimacy with people from rehab than with me.
I understand if the alcoholic is your parent, sibling, or child. But a spouse is supposed to be your life partner. Maybe this only applies to active users and people in early recovery? If not then I might have to say that I deserve someone who finds me relevant.
-- Edited by CH_Husband_Dad on Monday 19th of September 2016 09:25:14 PM
I do not think that AA members find their partners irrelevant but their obsession is with alcohol and We focus on our obsession which is other people.
AA members lives depend on supporting each other so that they learn early on to be supportive of each other and seemingly neglect their families.
After a few years this changes.
Ok. I edited my post with a question which you already answered here. Thank you.
When I got sober 28 years ago (I was a young gal back then), I was in a long-term relationship. He tried to the best of his ability to understand, quit drinking and partying and 'hovered' over me. In all honesty, it drove me perfectly crazy as I was trying so hard to do what I was told to do. I felt extreme guilt and a pull between the program and him. I had to let him go and focus on me. If only he had found his own recovery, and worked harder to give me the space I required, it may have been different. Instead, he was needy, codependent and felt neglected. Those were his issues, not mine and I could not be true to me (as told was necessary) and be true to him.
When I came to Al-Anon for my qualifiers, I truly thought that when the substance was removed, all would be well. I was way off the mark and now do not expect ever a close relationship with my AH or my A Sons. I had to let go of what I thought it should look like and just allow things to unfold as they do/are/will. I learned through the program that my expectations were unrealistic and nobody could meet my needs except my HP and me.
Calm Lady's post above me says it all - the takeaway is we need to work on ourselves and allow recovery to happen. Trying to impose our will only leads us to more pain and frustration. When I was active in the disease, I intentionally pushed away good people. As I progressed in recovery, I surrounded myself with safe people. As more time passed, and I felt more comfortable in my skin, I expanded my circle. Not all who love/loved me before recovery were safe - especially in the beginning. Recovery takes a daily commitment and selfish choices, and I was told time and time again that nothing and nobody could/should ever take priority over my program.
Iamhere,
Is it not fair to say that life is short and if I have intimacy needs that can't be fulfilled (not talking sex) then I owe it to myself to do what is right for me?
I understand that it takes time but at some point I have to go after what I need in life. It is complicated because we have a child (and a special needs one at that) and that would be strongly taken into consideration but there's a point to where I am going to demand the intimacy I see her giving to relative strangers she met in rehab.
Maybe some alcoholics are just selfish people to begin with. Maybe for some alcoholism didn't cause the selfishness but the selfishness allowed them to lose control of their lives without regards to others. Maybe focusing on myself means looking for the life I deserve and that means abandoning my fear of being alone.
Maybe I'm just being negative today. I don't know. I understand that I shouldn't be making major life decisions right now and I fully agree with that.
It can ONLY be filled by Higher Power but it took hitting a bottom with it time and time again to do some surrendering. People are not powerful enough to meet soul needs, humans are limited but God is not. God is the only real joy.
Step two begged me to ask myself what I had previously used as a Higher power and I hated the obvious answers.... my alcoholic husband and his crazy mother. I sought their attention, acceptance and love for years!!! I sought the approval of people I didn't even approve of.
Wow! Light bulb just gone on. YES. Absolutely.
The object of my obsession was usually a person that I didn't like!!! Wouldn't have wanted to spend time with them but I would be obsessed about getting their approval.
Insane.
Thank you for your share 2HP.
I have heard it described as making the person your Higher Power. This was accurate for me. I now have a proper and appropriate Higher Power.
As I got sober, worked the 12 Steps and began to look at me, my needs, my wants, my fears, my insecurities, etc. I discovered I was as selfish as my AH and my A sons. I wanted them to be what I expected them to be. I never stopped to consider they may not want that or be able to be that.
I see no issues with anybody making moves in their live(s) that work towards a better path or journey. As I look back now, I was a reactive person often/always. I was all about me when things got tough. I felt I had every right to seek out what I needed. These are all valid points, but what I never stopped to process was what about the other person? What are their needs? Am I expecting more from them than they are from me? Do I ever know what they expect of me? How different are our values?
I'm in my 50s now and my life experience with ALL my relationships has taught me that it will never be perfect. My needs will never bet met by another person, despite their best efforts. All people are on their best behavior for the first 2+ years. Most will then settle in and start showing true patterns. After 25 years of marriage, my AH still surprises me at times with things I didn't know, hadn't noticed or just because.
I don't view love as a feeling. I view love as a decision. After one failed marriage, which I was the one who walked - he wanted to work on things - I swore I would never get married again. Then I met my AH, and committed to him. There were others between them. I was always looking for what was wrong in the relationship vs. what was right. My AH had also been divorced. We were both deeply affected by our divorces, and when we committed to marry, we both agreed we would not divorce. We promised that and we've stayed true to that.
We did not promise each other we would never drink again - we were sober 6/7 years when we married. We promised to fight for the marriage and to never divorce. I have no doubt he's been unfaithful, and he's been actively drinking for the last 15+ years. I know it has nothing to do with me and is his disease and his demons.
So - my experience is until I got healthy and grounded in personal recovery - I kept having the same let-downs in my relationships. I had distorted views of what love was, what marriage was and what a life partner should 'be' to me and for me. When I was better able to define that and accept that we all have faults and are imperfect, I found I can be content in almost any/every setting around me.
To your question - you bet....you have every right to want or need what you want/need. My best answer is --- will anyone be able to be that for you? My picking rate was 0% until I changed, and I lowered my expectations from others. Just food for thought - take what you like and leave the rest. I will say - if I knew in my 20s that it was going to take me until 40ish to figure this stuff out, I would have stayed in my first marriage and worked on/for it.
This has been a great post and discussion I can see clearer than when I logged on to it which I believe is what we do with and for each other. More and different perspectives allow me to pause before responding in my life to do more letting go and letting God , Thinking and when in doubting not responding or reacting. I can reflect and verify my past decisions without second guessing if they were the perfect or best responses. I did the best I could at the time with what I had at the time and have no regrets while I do have remorse. I was living and learning up to this moment and can continue to do it not relying only upon myself. Thank God and everyone else for bringing me into keeping me into and working the program. (((((hugs)))))
CH Husband/Dad, I'm with you on this. I would much rather be alone than be in a relationship where I'm living a separate life with someone in the same house. I would love to be in a relationship with someone with shared goals, where we did things together and enjoyed coming home to each other each night or not even living together, but seeing each other regularly and talking about our lives and enjoying each other's company -- those are my relationship goals, which I think are *pretty minimal*. When I hear about people in relationships where they do everything separately and just co-habitate like roommates (alcoholics or not), I know that it's not for me. To each his own, and for those who are living that way, that works for them and god bless 'em, but I'm on a different path.
Thanks for that. As for the last question, I don't think my expectations are too high. I think they're too high for the moment where we are in early recovery and I am beginning to understand that.
I'm not asking for a ton of intimacy. I just want a little bit. Grab my hand sometimes. Give me a hug or say "I love you." Don't always wait for me to do the little things.
And don't get me wrong, I am not giving up on my wife. It was as much a what if discussion.
I'm certainly not perfect in this regard. I'm not the most romantic person in the world.
I hear you and understand - there will be a time when you will be able to calmly state exactly what you want/need and it will be received! It's the interval that's iffy/unknown! I'm almost uncomfortable with romance - it's just not something I've witnessed in real life...only on TV or in movies!
(((Hugs))) - keep coming back!
On this journey when I first discovered my partner was an A I used to do the arguments , the 'why why why' , searching for the bottles, obsessing about stuff.
Now I don't , it was part of the detaching, which is necessary if you are to keep yourself psychologically healthy.
It's saddening. I feel really sad of an evening (every evening) when my partner has obviously been drinking, it's very stressful - BUT I do not stress out as much. I feel sad and upset, but I don't obsess.
It's the lesser of 2 evils, but necessary to keep your awareness and start on the path of self-discovery and recovery yourself.
It still amazes me to think on how much of my time and energy I gave to obsessing over someone else, for nigh on 40 years of my life. It made me so miserable! So devoted to "how to make he/she happy" (and make them obsessed with me too maybe because that's what love is?) Trying to think someone else into change is the fastest way that I know of to go insane.
I've no idea what non-obsessive love feels like but I suspect I'll enjoy it when I find it. In the mean time, my head works a lot better when it's focused on things I can understand and improve (me).
Great topic CL.