Well...not surprisingly, there are nonrecovering alcoholics in my family. I wrote in another thread months ago that I have a medication refusing bipolar active alcoholic first cousin that continues to come around my elderly parents with his hand held out. There is a long history with him. His father (my mom's brother) was an angry drunk for most of my cousin's early childhood. My uncled died about 12 years ago. My cousin is 34. He has been homeless, in jail (for assaults) mostly, and all of the rest of the family has taken the stance to not have dealings with him inless he gets help. Which he hasn't.
My mom and dad, under the notion of "helping" have let him get an ID card with their address, they are giving him money here and there, and this time, they opened op a bank account for him and bought him clothes and all this stuff right after he got released from jail for assault.
Well...not shockingly, he has decided he now wants to stay in the area where my mom and dad live and also my older sister and her husband and 2 kids. Part of the reason my parent moved there is to help raise and be very active with my nephews.
Getting to the gist, my sister is livid over the enabling, blames my parent for luring my dangerous mentally ill addict cousin to town with their enabling and she said she will not allow my nephews over at their house now because she is fearful my cousin could show up and be violent or drunk and out of control and she doesn't want her kids exposed to it.
THAT made the proverbial s**t hit the fan. Calls to me from both sister and parents. Ugh. My parents ARE enabling. They are saying classic enabler things...feel sorry for him...he had a bad childhood, his mental illness makes him not know better, nobody else in the family can help like them, they trust him, he hasn't blown up on them yet...blah blah blah.
My sister is spazzing a bit. My cousin is kinda dangerous but not a thugged out gun toting druggie. He is more just a sloppy homeless mentally ill fight picking drunk. I don't think he would target my nephews to get more enabling from my parents (my sister is worried about this because my dumb mom told cousin he is not allowed at the house cuz sister doesnt want him around her kids).
They wanted my opinion and I did weigh in. If feels icky telling my parents they are making poor choices. I kinda feel bad gamging up with my sister. I know they have a right to enable him if they want just like he has the choice to drink and not take meds. It just got tense and kinda ugly again in a family where there has not been a designated screw up since I got sober. It is like my mom needs another "project."
hotrod said
Sep 10, 2016
Sorry to read this Mark I know that my family would and does respond in like manner Understanding alanon's principles of hands off, trusting HP and not doing for others what they can do for themselves eludes their processing abilities.
I would mail each family an alanon beginner kit as well as the booklet:" Alcoholism the Family Disease "and suggest they search out meetings.
Positive thoughts and prayers on the way
tiredtonite said
Sep 10, 2016
I think many of us have seen this in our families and of course it's frustrating. We can never know what's at the root of people's choices. What seems clear is that your parents want to do the "loving" thing for their nephew. There are the Alanon suggestions which Betty has already offered in her response. But.. I wonder if you family might benefit from open AA and even hearing from chemical dependency professional colleagues/friends whom are close to you. From personal experience, my parents seemed to have a much easier time accepting suggestions from others with the same experience and credentials than from their child. You know the deal... they raised me and now the child they raised was trying to tell them how to do something "correctly," how to live their life? At times they listened and accepted those same suggestions from friends their own age. These suggestions were sometimes viewed as "original" ideas that my parents were hearing for the first time. Looking back it was simple, no matter how I was, no matter what my credentials, my parents as long as they were mentally stable and able bodied were not going to give authority to my opposition concerning some choices they made. I would always be "the kid" even when standing in front of them as a grown up. It was hard but I knew I had to surrender it all and trust that my parents would be taken care of. If I were to keep trying to rescue them from their what I believed to be faulty decision making, I wouldn't be honoring my own life by living it. It so hard when you love someone so much isn't it? So hard to trust hp in with all of it and not snatch back our will - to let go and let god. Hope they will be open to Alanon. Glad you're recovering with us. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:59:26 AM
deacon said
Sep 10, 2016
Sometimes I wonder if families are worth the effort. They keep pulling us back into chaos when all we want is a peaceful life.
It is understandable that your sister is being a mama bear and protecting her children. Who knows what your cousin will do as his disease worsens? She needs your support in setting up boundaries for her children no matter how much it hurts your parents. Who knows, maybe if both of you stand firm in your opposition, your parents will begin to examine their enabling.
And it is also understandable that your parents feel sorry for their nephew. What I am wondering is why they cannot see how much more healthy you are now that you have dealt with your addictions and that he could do the same. They need to be educated but.... sadly first they need to want to be educated.
pinkchip said
Sep 10, 2016
I did recommend alanon...That just went straight over their head. Even with me and my uncle, they minimized and said "it wasnt that bad" while simultaneously saying it was at other times. This is what I wrote them since they brought me in as sort of the "designated addictions expert" I edited my cousin's name to "C":
Just to weigh in,
I think you are some of the reason he is in Annapolis Mom...he has an ID card with your address so whenever he gets out of jail he can probably get a free ride to the area. Also, you are enabling him. Could it be worse? Hell yeah. Nobody is saying you are the devil. You are saying things about C that I hear from enabling family members of people in treatment EVERY day. C is a survivor who makes his own choices. He is not helpless and pathetic. He is not a victim of "angry people." Did you waste your whole life because you had an angry brother and dad? He is responsible for his own choices and if you view his as a pathetic, helpless victim, that strips him of both dignity and responsibility. How many times you have seen or heard from C is not that much of an issue, but the fact is: Every time he contacts you or sees you, you wind up giving him money or letting him cross boundaries that are concerning (maybe not stupid or dangerous - but concerning). So...C is not seeking "Help" - If he wanted to be a real family member who deserves to be helped by family, he would help himself or offer something in return. He only spins chaos and takes. THIS is what you are dealing with at the moment. Up until he is able to demonstrate some job/housing stability, any money you give him is not really "help." C is 34...he made it this far in life. He has not starved. You do not need to feed him. He is banking on you feeling sorry for him and spending money on him.
The money you spent on C's older sister and us was mostly for stuff we used to better ourselves - get degrees...homes...to secure our future and it was all while we were doing well in school and had jobs. Giving C money on the same justification is not rational or a good comparison.
In sum, I just wanted to write this because I see you justifying enabling and trying to call it something else. I am scared it could lead to worse and you will then really be up to your necks in C's bulls##t. Just be careful.
Love you,
Mark
Mattie said
Sep 10, 2016
It is too bad and of course you are in a good position to see what is really going on.
But also by dragging you into the equation they are triangulating, and we all know what good comes of that.
Alcoholics and those with untreated mental illness and dysfunctional folks love to have drama around, and they generate it in others wherever they go. The way I see it, we can be a firewall against the spread of the drama by not being drawn into it, even when we have very sensible things to say. (I wish people were ever convinced by sensible things, but...)
By "emotional contagion" his inner turmoil is spreading outwards. Maybe the most helpful thing you can have an effect on is not letting that turmoil spread between you + parents or you + sister. If they want to have turmoil among themselves, I guess if it makes them happy, right? And sometimes I think the turmoil does make people a weird kind of happy.
Just some thoughts, as always ignore if unhelpful.
Jerry F said
Sep 10, 2016
Good letter Mark record its success if you care to and there is some. I've spoke of my experience with my Mom and Dad before...first speaking with my HP and then telling my Mom and Dad that I wished to speak with them if they agreed and when I did they were not to respond and just listen. When I was done I left and they could do what they thought best while I was gone. A day later they told me what they came up with and it was heartfelt humility and gratitude...done. You might need to be the therapist rather than the son...(((hugs)))
hotrod said
Sep 10, 2016
It is a great letter Mark I think I would be a little more gentle when they reply and state that you are concerned because you are aware of their generous hearts and loving spirits.
pinkchip said
Sep 10, 2016
Yes. I my sister even mentioned that betty. You are right. They are bleeding hearts. Part of why I love them so much, but also worry about them getting used. Oh well...I also have enough alanon to know it's not under my control and I cannot get too wrapped up in this.
Iamhere said
Sep 10, 2016
Oh Pinkchip - families are such a challenge. I've been sucked into a couple of different scenarios and it's just not fun. I have 2 bi-polar cousins as well and they do what appears to be common - cycle, get medicated, feel better, then stop the meds, then cycle.....the cycling is scary and always has required long-term stays in the psychiatric hospital (they both live in the same state) and the psych. hospital is close by.
It's heart-breaking to watch and of course, they both tend to abuse substances - esp. when they are feeling good/cycling. One of them, close in age to your cousin came to live with me after a long-term stay. We had a plan - a detailed plan and I am an advocate for self-reliance and accountability. She did fairly well for a couple months and then began slipping. Her mother (aunt) is the enabler and gave her a free car, paid for her insurance and gas, etc. Well - she started not going to meetings, being late for work, getting here later than curfew, etc. I gave her 3 strikes, you're out and had to boot her.
My aunt still doesn't speak kindly to me, and this cousin trash-talks me. I really do not care too much but it did teach me that I really, really have to detach at the start instead of getting sucked in. I am now the 'one' who will say, I think you need to talk to a therapist. Or, I will pray for you. It pains me deeply to watch good people get sucked into the cycle of this stuff with the best of intentions. I just know that my 'help' is not really wanted - they want a band-aid (quick fix) when I suggest surgery (longer-term solution).
At the end of the day, in these scenarios for me, as frustrated as I get with the choices of my adult cousins, what is truly at the center of my own craziness is I hate to see good people used up and hurt. So, that's what I end up saying more often than not - I love you and I just don't want to see you hurt. Beyond that, I have learned the hard way that I am again powerless over so many things, and turning it over is sometimes the best I can do.
I do like your letter. I am a very straight shooter so it's like something I would write. I am not good at remembering my concern is from a place of love so Betty's suggestions make logical sense to me too. Take care of you and do what you can to avoid the 'muck'...
lookingup said
Sep 10, 2016
(((((((((Pinkchip))))))))))), thanks for sharing .....hugs lu
Well...not surprisingly, there are nonrecovering alcoholics in my family. I wrote in another thread months ago that I have a medication refusing bipolar active alcoholic first cousin that continues to come around my elderly parents with his hand held out. There is a long history with him. His father (my mom's brother) was an angry drunk for most of my cousin's early childhood. My uncled died about 12 years ago. My cousin is 34. He has been homeless, in jail (for assaults) mostly, and all of the rest of the family has taken the stance to not have dealings with him inless he gets help. Which he hasn't.
My mom and dad, under the notion of "helping" have let him get an ID card with their address, they are giving him money here and there, and this time, they opened op a bank account for him and bought him clothes and all this stuff right after he got released from jail for assault.
Well...not shockingly, he has decided he now wants to stay in the area where my mom and dad live and also my older sister and her husband and 2 kids. Part of the reason my parent moved there is to help raise and be very active with my nephews.
Getting to the gist, my sister is livid over the enabling, blames my parent for luring my dangerous mentally ill addict cousin to town with their enabling and she said she will not allow my nephews over at their house now because she is fearful my cousin could show up and be violent or drunk and out of control and she doesn't want her kids exposed to it.
THAT made the proverbial s**t hit the fan. Calls to me from both sister and parents. Ugh. My parents ARE enabling. They are saying classic enabler things...feel sorry for him...he had a bad childhood, his mental illness makes him not know better, nobody else in the family can help like them, they trust him, he hasn't blown up on them yet...blah blah blah.
My sister is spazzing a bit. My cousin is kinda dangerous but not a thugged out gun toting druggie. He is more just a sloppy homeless mentally ill fight picking drunk. I don't think he would target my nephews to get more enabling from my parents (my sister is worried about this because my dumb mom told cousin he is not allowed at the house cuz sister doesnt want him around her kids).
They wanted my opinion and I did weigh in. If feels icky telling my parents they are making poor choices. I kinda feel bad gamging up with my sister. I know they have a right to enable him if they want just like he has the choice to drink and not take meds. It just got tense and kinda ugly again in a family where there has not been a designated screw up since I got sober. It is like my mom needs another "project."
I would mail each family an alanon beginner kit as well as the booklet:" Alcoholism the Family Disease "and suggest they search out meetings.
Positive thoughts and prayers on the way
I think many of us have seen this in our families and of course it's frustrating. We can never know what's at the root of people's choices. What seems clear is that your parents want to do the "loving" thing for their nephew. There are the Alanon suggestions which Betty has already offered in her response. But.. I wonder if you family might benefit from open AA and even hearing from chemical dependency professional colleagues/friends whom are close to you. From personal experience, my parents seemed to have a much easier time accepting suggestions from others with the same experience and credentials than from their child. You know the deal... they raised me and now the child they raised was trying to tell them how to do something "correctly," how to live their life?
At times they listened and accepted those same suggestions from friends their own age. These suggestions were sometimes viewed as "original" ideas that my parents were hearing for the first time. Looking back it was simple, no matter how I was, no matter what my credentials, my parents as long as they were mentally stable and able bodied were not going to give authority to my opposition concerning some choices they made. I would always be "the kid" even when standing in front of them as a grown up. It was hard but I knew I had to surrender it all and trust that my parents would be taken care of. If I were to keep trying to rescue them from their what I believed to be faulty decision making, I wouldn't be honoring my own life by living it. It so hard when you love someone so much isn't it? So hard to trust hp in with all of it and not snatch back our will - to let go and let god. Hope they will be open to Alanon. Glad you're recovering with us. (((hugs))) TT
-- Edited by tiredtonite on Saturday 10th of September 2016 09:59:26 AM
It is understandable that your sister is being a mama bear and protecting her children. Who knows what your cousin will do as his disease worsens? She needs your support in setting up boundaries for her children no matter how much it hurts your parents. Who knows, maybe if both of you stand firm in your opposition, your parents will begin to examine their enabling.
And it is also understandable that your parents feel sorry for their nephew. What I am wondering is why they cannot see how much more healthy you are now that you have dealt with your addictions and that he could do the same. They need to be educated but.... sadly first they need to want to be educated.
I did recommend alanon...That just went straight over their head. Even with me and my uncle, they minimized and said "it wasnt that bad" while simultaneously saying it was at other times. This is what I wrote them since they brought me in as sort of the "designated addictions expert" I edited my cousin's name to "C":
Just to weigh in,
I think you are some of the reason he is in Annapolis Mom...he has an ID card with your address so whenever he gets out of jail he can probably get a free ride to the area. Also, you are enabling him. Could it be worse? Hell yeah. Nobody is saying you are the devil. You are saying things about C that I hear from enabling family members of people in treatment EVERY day. C is a survivor who makes his own choices. He is not helpless and pathetic. He is not a victim of "angry people." Did you waste your whole life because you had an angry brother and dad? He is responsible for his own choices and if you view his as a pathetic, helpless victim, that strips him of both dignity and responsibility. How many times you have seen or heard from C is not that much of an issue, but the fact is: Every time he contacts you or sees you, you wind up giving him money or letting him cross boundaries that are concerning (maybe not stupid or dangerous - but concerning). So...C is not seeking "Help" - If he wanted to be a real family member who deserves to be helped by family, he would help himself or offer something in return. He only spins chaos and takes. THIS is what you are dealing with at the moment. Up until he is able to demonstrate some job/housing stability, any money you give him is not really "help." C is 34...he made it this far in life. He has not starved. You do not need to feed him. He is banking on you feeling sorry for him and spending money on him.
The money you spent on C's older sister and us was mostly for stuff we used to better ourselves - get degrees...homes...to secure our future and it was all while we were doing well in school and had jobs. Giving C money on the same justification is not rational or a good comparison.
In sum, I just wanted to write this because I see you justifying enabling and trying to call it something else. I am scared it could lead to worse and you will then really be up to your necks in C's bulls##t. Just be careful.
Love you,
Mark
It is too bad and of course you are in a good position to see what is really going on.
But also by dragging you into the equation they are triangulating, and we all know what good comes of that.
Alcoholics and those with untreated mental illness and dysfunctional folks love to have drama around, and they generate it in others wherever they go. The way I see it, we can be a firewall against the spread of the drama by not being drawn into it, even when we have very sensible things to say. (I wish people were ever convinced by sensible things, but...)
By "emotional contagion" his inner turmoil is spreading outwards. Maybe the most helpful thing you can have an effect on is not letting that turmoil spread between you + parents or you + sister. If they want to have turmoil among themselves, I guess if it makes them happy, right? And sometimes I think the turmoil does make people a weird kind of happy.
Just some thoughts, as always ignore if unhelpful.
Good letter Mark record its success if you care to and there is some. I've spoke of my experience with my Mom and Dad before...first speaking with my HP and then telling my Mom and Dad that I wished to speak with them if they agreed and when I did they were not to respond and just listen. When I was done I left and they could do what they thought best while I was gone. A day later they told me what they came up with and it was heartfelt humility and gratitude...done. You might need to be the therapist rather than the son...(((hugs)))
It's heart-breaking to watch and of course, they both tend to abuse substances - esp. when they are feeling good/cycling. One of them, close in age to your cousin came to live with me after a long-term stay. We had a plan - a detailed plan and I am an advocate for self-reliance and accountability. She did fairly well for a couple months and then began slipping. Her mother (aunt) is the enabler and gave her a free car, paid for her insurance and gas, etc. Well - she started not going to meetings, being late for work, getting here later than curfew, etc. I gave her 3 strikes, you're out and had to boot her.
My aunt still doesn't speak kindly to me, and this cousin trash-talks me. I really do not care too much but it did teach me that I really, really have to detach at the start instead of getting sucked in. I am now the 'one' who will say, I think you need to talk to a therapist. Or, I will pray for you. It pains me deeply to watch good people get sucked into the cycle of this stuff with the best of intentions. I just know that my 'help' is not really wanted - they want a band-aid (quick fix) when I suggest surgery (longer-term solution).
At the end of the day, in these scenarios for me, as frustrated as I get with the choices of my adult cousins, what is truly at the center of my own craziness is I hate to see good people used up and hurt. So, that's what I end up saying more often than not - I love you and I just don't want to see you hurt. Beyond that, I have learned the hard way that I am again powerless over so many things, and turning it over is sometimes the best I can do.
I do like your letter. I am a very straight shooter so it's like something I would write. I am not good at remembering my concern is from a place of love so Betty's suggestions make logical sense to me too. Take care of you and do what you can to avoid the 'muck'...