I have a general question about forgiving people. I saw that there was another thread related to this topic but I didn't want to hijack that person's thread as my question is kind of general.
I've heard it often said that "forgiving is not forgetting", and that forgiving involves letting go of hurts/resentments.
My question - if you let these things go, aren't you forgetting? Aren't you essentially saying, "I've decided that it didn't kill me, so I'm going to let it pass. I will privately look at you as damaged goods and feel sorry for you, but I'm not going to be mad about it anymore. It no longer matters."
And then, how does this work when you turn it on yourself?
Is there really no justice in the world? Like, the A gets to hurt you over and over, and we forgive them over and over; if we're lucky, they get sober and get to start their lives over and yay for them. If they're lucky, their partner has stuck with them like a saint. Yay for them.
But if you're the partner, who stands with you? Your kids? Oh great. Thanks for reminding me that it's not just one life that AH is screwing up, it's the kids too. Oh yay for us all.
Tonight I watched my AH make a really stupid speech to our kids and nearly fall down crying while he did it. Of course he had been drinking. I just wanted him to die. I have wished that he would have a seizure and die, or hit a telephone pole and die. I can't remember the last time I went a day without wishing it so. I want him to stop polluting our children's eyes with this spectacle of crap. I actually got happy when he passed out because that's my signal that the display of crap has ended for the day.
But tomorrow will be a new day, I'll get up and make lunch, wish everyone a Great Day, Mommy Loves You All! Maybe I'll even offer to have relations with the spouse, as a kind of goodwill gesture because we all lived through another day. It won't matter how I felt tonight because the past is the past and we all start fresh every day. Like, nothing I felt matters as long as I can wake up to a new sunrise.
I just don't know what to do with all this accumulating hurt and despair. When I think about "letting go and letting god", I just wonder where all this crap is supposed to go.
el-cee said
Aug 31, 2016
I can feel and relate so well to your anger. I also wished my ex husband would die at times too because I couldn't see a way for it all to end and I felt hopeless and I was because I had put my life and the life of my family in the hands of an alcoholic.
I went to Alanon and it all changed for me and my family. We are all doing so much better now.
Forgiveness came through learning about the disease of alcoholism and learning that I was sick and my whole families thinking was distorted. I cant say I decided to forgive it was more a process of me freeing myself of the addiction to the drinker in my life and working on my own shortcomings. Forgiveness was about me letting go of the burden I was carrying about. A ton weight of bitterness, hate, anger resentment. to finally be able to release all that through forgiveness has been the biggest gift I have got from Alanon.
Look out the meetings on the website, go and give you and your family the most valuable gift you can ever imagine.
hotrod said
Aug 31, 2016
Hi Fedora as LC has stated, for me "forgiveness " is not about forgetting it is about letting go of the anger, resentment, self pity and fear that the disease has generated within me.
When I worked the Steps and found that all these negative feelings were trapped within me, flavoring all my days and interactions and only hurting me, I became willing to ask HP to lift them They have lifted, I have memories of all the difficult painful events, but I no longer feel the feelings associated with the event.
While working the Steps and clearing up the wreckage of the past, I was able to see my part in the insanity, uncover the lessons I should have learned while experiencing the encounter and grow.
There is a reading in the ODAT that states that "holding anger and resentments is like drinking poison and thinking the other person will die It also states it is not our job to punish anyone- That is up to HP.
By letting go of the past we allow ourselves to be in the present moment and feel the joy , happiness that is to be found .
During this processs I found there were actions that I could have taken, while enduring the insanity but did not-- I also had to then forgive myself and accept that now , with alanon tools I know better and am doing better.
Keep taking care of yourself and keep coming back
geems said
Aug 31, 2016
I hear that anger sistah! I implore you... Go to a meeting today! A drama free life is possible friend.
Mattie said
Aug 31, 2016
My therapist told me a helpful thing once - that forgiving is a lot easier when the situation has changed. So you are not challenged with facing the same old pain and heartbreak again. That change might be separating from the A, it might be the A becoming sober (we all know not to hold our breaths for that one, but sometimes it does happen), it might be just a change within ourselves. It probably means adjusting our expectations.
One thing that helped me is the saying "My choices, my results." I realized that the A was just acting the way he acts. I was the one who chose to expect something different from him, when he had given no indication that he wanted or could give something different. I was the one who chose to lumber him with my needs, even though I could have taken my needs to someone who could actually meet them (a healthier man, myself, my HP). I was the one who stuck around even though his inadequacy was very clear. I got myself into the situation. He only did half of it. I did the other half. When I saw that, I began to scale back on the blame I put on him. It would certainly be great if he had made different decisions along the way. It would have been great if I had too. But I, for one, have the choice of making different decisions coming up. When I realized that I had that freedom, I was able to let go of some of the resentment. That didn't erase the pain or heartache or sorrow. But I was able to let go of some of the anger part of it.
As the saying is, "Take what you like and leave the rest." Hope you will take good care of yourself.
Enigmatic said
Aug 31, 2016
Hi Fedora...as I read over your share, my thought was that so much depends upon our decided definition of the word(s) in question, as often there are different shadings or meanings to a word, affected by culture, region, circumstance, and intent.
Forgiveness means many different things to different people, so I appreciated the meaning used in AlAnon and suggested by hotrod and elcee above. I found great clarity in Courage to Change under the topic Forgiveness, particularly p. 289.
Nothing in AlAnon suggests that we stand in and accept unacceptable behavior, but it does suggest that we take the time and effort to understand our role in it so as to better determine what is best for us to do about it.
Hang in there, thoughts are with you
Iamhere said
Aug 31, 2016
Fedora - I am like Paul....when I am uncertain or confused about things, I turn to the literature. Most of the literature has an index in the back which can give targeted reading(s) on the topic of choice/confusion. It took me a long time to realize that forgiveness has nothing to do with another person - it has everything to do with me and setting me free to learn, grow and change.
A member here that I love dearly had this in her signature..... "Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
This spoke to me each time she posted. For me, I did not want to carry that anger, resentment, blame of others, etc. around any more. I did not like waking each day with the negative affects of this disease present at the front of my mind. I wanted to be free from my own perceptions/views/attitudes about those with this disease. I was very judgmental and always looking outside myself to blame.
Working the steps and working with a sponsor helped me to truly let it go. I was one who when a new situation came up, my mind would go to, "nothing has changed....here I am hurt again while they carry on happy and as if nothing happened....." I had to change my thinking to, "this is a sick person and my HP doesn't want me to judge, hold grudges or resent them. He wants me to treat them as one who is suffering, because they were.
It's a cosmic shift in me resulting from working this program and the steps that changed what forgiveness means to me and for me. Great topic!!
jojo8466 said
Aug 31, 2016
I really struggle with the saying "Let Go and Let God" - I feel like I have spent years PRAYING for my ABF and to no avail. It's like God hasn't even been listening to me. At this point it is easier for me to just focus on me and my needs and take comfort in other "sayings" I have read on this site that don't deal with HP. But as the saying goes "to each their own". I have found great comfort from this site in realizing that the alcoholism is his problem that he caused himself. "I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure / change it". That saying has brought me such relief. It has clearly opened my eyes that it's not my fault and only he can get it under control. I'm learning that I will take care of myself and he needs to take care of himself when he decides he wants too.
As for forgiveness - it is a disease - and I am learning to forgive the "disease" part of it but I still feel anger that he wasn't a strong enough man to take control of the disease and time and time again he let it beat him. I guess where I struggle with the "disease" idea is in regards to this - cancer is a disease - nobody wants cancer - when you get cancer you have to do chemo and radiation and you pray it will go in remission. But as for alcoholism all a person has to do is stop drinking! Work your program, go to meetings, get a sponsor and just stop drinking. An A has all the control in their body to stop their "disease" - a cancer person does not.
Freetime said
Aug 31, 2016
Fedora, I have felt the same anger you feel
Everyone above has given such wonderful ESH. The only thing I will add is how I have tried to turn my anger into a more positive form of energy. Some things I did were to spend more time exercising (my gym attendance was stellar) and I put a lot of attention on fixing up a spare bedroom as my personal retreat. Now that I am no longer in the eye of the storm, I support and do service for organizations -- Alanon and others -- that are combatting the effects of alcoholism and other addictions. I found that once the anger was aimed in a positive direction, the sun could come out and gradually dry up the waters of anger.
geems said
Aug 31, 2016
Mattie wrote:
My therapist told me a helpful thing once - that forgiving is a lot easier when the situation has changed. So you are not challenged with facing the same old pain and heartbreak again. That change might be separating from the A, it might be the A becoming sober (we all know not to hold our breaths for that one, but sometimes it does happen), it might be just a change within ourselves. It probably means adjusting our expectations.
One thing that helped me is the saying "My choices, my results." I realized that the A was just acting the way he acts. I was the one who chose to expect something different from him, when he had given no indication that he wanted or could give something different. I was the one who chose to lumber him with my needs, even though I could have taken my needs to someone who could actually meet them (a healthier man, myself, my HP). I was the one who stuck around even though his inadequacy was very clear. I got myself into the situation. He only did half of it. I did the other half. When I saw that, I began to scale back on the blame I put on him. It would certainly be great if he had made different decisions along the way. It would have been great if I had too. But I, for one, have the choice of making different decisions coming up. When I realized that I had that freedom, I was able to let go of some of the resentment. That didn't erase the pain or heartache or sorrow. But I was able to let go of some of the anger part of it.
As the saying is, "Take what you like and leave the rest." Hope you will take good care of yourself.
This is excellent. Thanks Mattie.
Iamhere said
Aug 31, 2016
jojo8466 wrote:
I really struggle with the saying "Let Go and Let God" - I feel like I have spent years PRAYING for my ABF and to no avail. It's like God hasn't even been listening to me. At this point it is easier for me to just focus on me and my needs and take comfort in other "sayings" I have read on this site that don't deal with HP. But as the saying goes "to each their own". I have found great comfort from this site in realizing that the alcoholism is his problem that he caused himself. "I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure / change it". That saying has brought me such relief. It has clearly opened my eyes that it's not my fault and only he can get it under control. I'm learning that I will take care of myself and he needs to take care of himself when he decides he wants too.
As for forgiveness - it is a disease - and I am learning to forgive the "disease" part of it but I still feel anger that he wasn't a strong enough man to take control of the disease and time and time again he let it beat him. I guess where I struggle with the "disease" idea is in regards to this - cancer is a disease - nobody wants cancer - when you get cancer you have to do chemo and radiation and you pray it will go in remission. But as for alcoholism all a person has to do is stop drinking! Work your program, go to meetings, get a sponsor and just stop drinking. An A has all the control in their body to stop their "disease" - a cancer person does not.
jojo - I completely understand where you are. I actually had to do step work around my anger with God, as like you I had prayed for my qualifiers and nothing changed. I was able to let go of all of it by working the steps and realizing I was praying for my will and my way in my time frame. Just something to think about as you move forward.
As far as suggesting all an alcoholic has to do is stop drinking, work a program, etc... It's hard to explain to one who doesn't have addictive tendencies, but if it were that easy, many more would be in recovery than active or relapsing. It is an obsession of the mind and body, and it pulls constantly - even after years of without for many. An A has no more control over this obsession than a cancer patient has on relapse or recurrence.
Most alcoholics are strong, smart and survivors. I've watched many people smarter than I die because of this disease. You can hold on to anger for as long as you want/need to, but holding on or letting go is not going to change what anyone else does/doesn't do. This is where recovery comes for us - we accept we are powerless and can't affect changes in others - no matter how much we want to or wish it to be.
jojo8466 said
Aug 31, 2016
Iamhere wrote:
jojo8466 wrote:
I really struggle with the saying "Let Go and Let God" - I feel like I have spent years PRAYING for my ABF and to no avail. It's like God hasn't even been listening to me. At this point it is easier for me to just focus on me and my needs and take comfort in other "sayings" I have read on this site that don't deal with HP. But as the saying goes "to each their own". I have found great comfort from this site in realizing that the alcoholism is his problem that he caused himself. "I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure / change it". That saying has brought me such relief. It has clearly opened my eyes that it's not my fault and only he can get it under control. I'm learning that I will take care of myself and he needs to take care of himself when he decides he wants too.
As for forgiveness - it is a disease - and I am learning to forgive the "disease" part of it but I still feel anger that he wasn't a strong enough man to take control of the disease and time and time again he let it beat him. I guess where I struggle with the "disease" idea is in regards to this - cancer is a disease - nobody wants cancer - when you get cancer you have to do chemo and radiation and you pray it will go in remission. But as for alcoholism all a person has to do is stop drinking! Work your program, go to meetings, get a sponsor and just stop drinking. An A has all the control in their body to stop their "disease" - a cancer person does not.
jojo - I completely understand where you are. I actually had to do step work around my anger with God, as like you I had prayed for my qualifiers and nothing changed. I was able to let go of all of it by working the steps and realizing I was praying for my will and my way in my time frame. Just something to think about as you move forward.
As far as suggesting all an alcoholic has to do is stop drinking, work a program, etc... It's hard to explain to one who doesn't have addictive tendencies, but if it were that easy, many more would be in recovery than active or relapsing. It is an obsession of the mind and body, and it pulls constantly - even after years of without for many. An A has no more control over this obsession than a cancer patient has on relapse or recurrence.
Most alcoholics are strong, smart and survivors. I've watched many people smarter than I die because of this disease. You can hold on to anger for as long as you want/need to, but holding on or letting go is not going to change what anyone else does/doesn't do. This is where recovery comes for us - we accept we are powerless and can't affect changes in others - no matter how much we want to or wish it to be.
Thanks for your opinion and thoughts - I'm honestly not angry at him (at least I don't feel the rage of anger in my heart I have felt multiple times during the past two years). I'm done allowing his drinking to control my moods...and in the past when he has told me that he was getting ready to detox (4 times in the past year) I have always been filled with worry, anxiety, fear for him but this time was different - this time I honestly felt nothing and simply thought "well here he goes again.....good luck to him".
I am really trying to believe that alcoholism is a disease and I've come along way from when I use to just think that was a line of crap, an excuse that A's made for their behavior. But even though he has this disease he has also had the tools at his fingertips to get better and time and time again he has chosen not too. It would be like a cancer patient knowing that their only chance to get better and stay alive is to do chemo and radiation and choosing not too. This detox hell that he is now going through was his choice when he chose to quit working the program, quit going to meetings and picked up that first drink again - and I'm not going to allow his choice to control my moods and my life anymore. And I feel really, really good about that!
Iamhere said
Aug 31, 2016
JoJo - not my opinions or thoughts - my experience. I've been there. It's just not as easy as you may believe. Every alcoholic is different, the disease manifests different and recovery options are different. It's certainly an inside job (he recovers or he does not)...
Each alcoholic has to reach a bottom that is personal to them. Just as each Al-Anon member reaches a bottom. When the pain is great enough, then comes change. It is a devastating deadly disease for many and it's sad to watch/witness.
Good on you for deciding to live your life in spite of his disease. Taking back personal power is worthy of feeling good about! Keep coming back!
Kcsnooze said
Aug 31, 2016
Jojo,
I get it. I understand how watching someone drunk, blabbering on about something, literally taking all the oxygen in the room can simply be too much. It's not about anger, it's the fact that you and your children are not only subjected to the drinking, but he is making himself the center of attention.
My AH does that when he is drinking. He engages everyone in whatever speech, drama, slight or topic he is focused on. we can leave a room, the house or the city and he demands that he gets the attention.
When I read your original post, I giggled a little. I too have had many of those moments. I thank my HP for u answered prayers just because of those moments.Those thoughts are typical. It's like every molecule in the room is being absorbed by the drunk. How could we not have a few of those thoughts. You are not bad.
e_i_m said
Aug 31, 2016
Fedora wrote:
I've heard it often said that "forgiving is not forgetting", and that forgiving involves letting go of hurts/resentments.
My question - if you let these things go, aren't you forgetting? Aren't you essentially saying, "I've decided that it didn't kill me, so I'm going to let it pass. I will privately look at you as damaged goods and feel sorry for you, but I'm not going to be mad about it anymore. It no longer matters."
And then, how does this work when you turn it on yourself?
Fedora, I've long thought that the concept of forgiveness indicates some level of a mistaken sense of control or blame. I don't think I have the power to forgive anyone for anything, if I say "I forgive you" it's like I've got some special power and I'm judging you and making you less than me. I can accept what someone has done and remove my ideas/reactions/emotions that I've attached to that thing. But if someone wants me to forgive them for something, then they must imagine that I blame them for whatever that thing is. I will readily take responsibility for something that I've done that I think was wrong, but I wouldn't ask someone to forgive me, I'd rather have them understand me or accept me, and I would rather understand or accept the other person, too. So if I turn it on myself, I want to understand myself and do better next time.
I don't know if this makes any sense, but I've been uncomfortable with the idea of forgiveness as it seems to keep blame alive.
jojo8466 said
Aug 31, 2016
Kcsnooze wrote:
Jojo,
I get it. I understand how watching someone drunk, blabbering on about something, literally taking all the oxygen in the room can simply be too much. It's not about anger, it's the fact that you and your children are not only subjected to the drinking, but he is making himself the center of attention.
My AH does that when he is drinking. He engages everyone in whatever speech, drama, slight or topic he is focused on. we can leave a room, the house or the city and he demands that he gets the attention.
When I read your original post, I giggled a little. I too have had many of those moments. I thank my HP for u answered prayers just because of those moments.Those thoughts are typical. It's like every molecule in the room is being absorbed by the drunk. How could we not have a few of those thoughts. You are not bad.
Thank you for your kind words and I'm glad I made you giggle. The situation with my A is unique in regards to we aren't married to each other....it's complicated....but I am "blessed" that I don't live with him and don't have to witness his drinking - also he is a functioning alcoholic - he drinks so he can work, can get through his day and function - there is no slurring his words, no abusive behavior towards anyone and as far as I know he isn't an attention seeker when he drinks.
The problem I have with my ABF is his need / alcoholism to control everything in our relationship - whether he texts or not, calls or not, see me or not....and I'm sick of it and not willing to allow him and his alcoholism to control my time, life or happiness anymore.
Thanks for being willing to understand what I'm trying to say and for not thinking I'm a bad person for some of my thoughts! I really appreciate it!
Kcsnooze said
Aug 31, 2016
Glad we can giggle at things,
Fedora, I meant to gear my post to your oiginal post on this tnread and was referencing your "thoughts" you have during the public speeches
maryjane said
Aug 31, 2016
My question - if you let these things go, aren't you forgetting? Aren't you essentially saying, "I've decided that it didn't kill me, so I'm going to let it pass. I will privately look at you as damaged goods and feel sorry for you, but I'm not going to be mad about it anymore. It no longer matters.
It won't matter how I felt tonight because the past is the past and we all start fresh every day. Like, nothing I felt matters as long as I can wake up to a new sunrise. -----------
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
That is how I saw it also, before I went to AlAnon meetings for quite a while. I didn't WANT to forgive because I felt then I was setting myself up to be hurt one more time... and then another, and then another. I can forgive, I've learned, and I don't have to forget. I don't want to forget because that is how I learn to avoid certain situations and behaviors. I learn how to be different myself and put myself into different settings. I am much healthier mentally, emotionally and physically.
I DO look at my hubby as damaged goods, but it is what it is. He is what he is. I see/saw so much more "potential" in him, but it was up to him to develop all of it. It was never up to me. I thought being a supportive wife/cheerleader and making him look good would be the most important role I could have with him. That was how I thought when we first married. It was good for a couple of years, but then he got his "reasons" to drink every night and he never lived up to what I thought of his "potential". I realize now that this was all crazy thinking on my part and that was some of my part in the disease. The other big part of my part of the disease is that I let it happen to me. I was proud that I was strong and could take it. I didn't stand up for myself. I didn't make myself visible. I was happy to be the cheerleader instead of living my own life. Of course, he liked me the way it was and totally resisted my changes when I got into AlAnon and learned a new way to look at things. But that is his problem and I don't need to defend my choices.
As far as the saying "let go and let God". I love that saying. But if you think that praying to your HP is like putting your quarters into a vending machine and then getting your candy/wish...... Nope. AlAnon is a program of honesty. To be able to look at any situation honestly. To see it for what it really is. When you see it for what it is, you realize that you didn't cause it, can't control it, can't change it..... but your HP can do whatever He/She wants and we get to let go and watch what happens. We don't have to get involved. We are only responsible for our own stuff.
We do have to work to protect ourselves, our heart, our soul...... what ever that means in each individual situation. Be honest with your kids. Be honest with yourself. Take care of yourself.
Fedora said
Sep 1, 2016
Hello everyone, thank you for your posts. I have been reading and thinking on them over the course of the day and will continue to do so long after I've signed off tonight.
Once again I am struck by how many people seem to have walked in my shoes, and how I did not invent the role of Partner of an Alcoholic. I swear, if I didn't know better, I'd think my spouse was double, triple, quadruple timing me with so many people I've read about on this board. Like, how does he get out so often?!
But seriously, it has helped me a lot even in the moment. One poster had mentioned gym attendance. When I came home tonight and was thinking, oh gosh, here we go again. I just pretty much went straight to the treadmill downstairs. Cranked up the music and walked. Bought myself 40 minutes of peace that way, even if it was just avoiding the person upstairs. I'm getting my reading stuff out again.
Several mentioned that nothing changes until we finally decide that what we have really is worse than what we could have. In that sense I get that the A and the partner are in the same boat. I guess I have not hit my own rock bottom yet. Ugh. We are still together. As long as that remains true, I really don't get to complain that we are stuck together.
The statement about HP being like a vending machine - that was very convicting to me because I am sure I have thought of HP that way. I have been trained to think that way by my (now previous) religion. Right now I feel like, whether there is a HP or not, it doesn't actually matter because it doesn't impact my life at all in the sense that whatever the HP decides to make happen (if one believes that there is one), then it will happen. I can, theoretically, operate under the same principles as if there is no HP and everything is random. (Just typing this, I'm getting a random thrill thinking about what my relations would say if they knew I had such thoughts. I might get nominated for an exorcism.)
I've thought A LOT about the comparison of alcoholism and cancer and how much choice is involved. In my own family, my dad was told over and over again by his doctors that he needed to get healthier otherwise he was going to get diabetes (which he did) and high blood pressure (which he did), and that he would have to get all kinds of medical interventions (which he did). In fact, he ended up needing quadruple bypass surgery and had a stroke which didn't kill him (unlucky for him) but left him paralyzed on one side of his body. Couldn't talk, eat, move for the last 9 years of his life. His shoulder became permanently dislocated. (That happens when you can't control your muscles enough to hold your body together.) And that was the least of the problems. He eventually developed colon cancer. Didn't die from it, though. Nope, he actually died after he choked to death on his own vomit when the nursing home folks didn't check on him. The only prayer that ever got answered during those 10 years came at the end. I went to see him after he had been revived after choking and I realized that he was still alive and aware but that his lungs were so messed up that he was drowning one breath at a time and it was going to take an indeterminate amount of time for him to die. At that point I got on my knees and begged God to take him. I didn't know you could live that close to death and suffer like that. It took almost a week for him to suffocate to death. The only mercy granted to him was that they gave him some medicine to (ostensibly) make him sleepy so he wouldn't know he was suffocating. And even then it took days. (They had him on a vent, and he managed to recover enough to come off the vent. Talk about a nightmare. If he had been on the vent we could have just turned it off. But no. He just lay there, struggling to breathe. In the end they did put him back on the vent and sedated him and then he eventually passed.)
When we were going through his belongings, my mom came upon a bag stashed under dad's office table at home which had countless bottles of meds. Blood pressure, insulin, everything. Apparently my dad didn't ever take any of his meds. Don't know why. We never got the chance to ask why he did anything that dumb. My mom fell apart into a thousand pieces then. It's like we had discovered that dad had chosen this road. He had no idea how bad the road was going to be, but the evidence was right there in front of us.
I was so shocked, I couldn't get angry. The way I spun it in my head was that my dad decided somewhere down the line that meds were not for him. Whether he realized or not how bad it could get is something we'll never know. He certainly was told. (I remember that he sat down my brother and I and told us that his doctor had made these pronouncements. We assumed that it was a good wake up call and that dad would be taking care of himself from then on. Turns out we were wrong.) His decision set off a domino chain of events that was simply more horrible than anything any of us could have possibly imagined happening.
I feel like my AH is playing with his own set of dominoes. And I just have to watch the game play itself out again. It is so difficult because my AH knows what happened to my dad. He knows how I feel about making bad decisions about one's health. But of course, alcoholism doesn't care. Maybe it's just genetics - my mom married someone who was incapable of doing the right thing when it mattered the most and suffered the consequences. Looks like I may have done the same thing.
I guess I just have to "suck it up". I couldn't fix my dad, I can't fix my spouse, and there's no guarantee I'll be able to keep my kids from following the family business of becoming a boozer. This Step 1 literally drives me to the floor. The idea that "it's half mine" is very convicting as well. I married my AH despite many people's advice that I was making a poor decision. It IS my fault that I'm in this mess. UGH.
Anyway, I'm not going to go to bed riding on a self-hatred/pity party. I'm thinking that tomorrow I am going to get up and pat myself on the back for making it thought another day. I'm going to try and exercise again during the daytime. I'm going to not harass the AH at work or at home. I'm going to do My business and take care of Me.
geems said
Sep 1, 2016
Awesome share Feds. Thanks!!!
jojo8466 said
Sep 1, 2016
Fedora - I'm proud of you for waking up today and deciding to just TAKE CARE OF YOU! YOUR HAPPINESS, YOUR CONTENTMENT is ALL that matters in this sick world of alcoholism. Your AH KNOWS what he needs to do to make himself well - the rest is up to him.
Iamhere said
Sep 1, 2016
Hey Fedora - great on you that you cranked out on the treadmill! I too am one who will go and do physical - it gives me relief from the status quo and also it's great self-care. I am so sorry for what your family went through with your dad. You summarized well for me how very powerless we are over another person and their will/choices. I am glad that you're with us on this journey and that you are processing. I too had that 'wake-up' call about I am where I am based on my choices...I am grateful that using the program, I was able to be gentle with myself, work the program and find peace.
I have a general question about forgiving people. I saw that there was another thread related to this topic but I didn't want to hijack that person's thread as my question is kind of general.
I've heard it often said that "forgiving is not forgetting", and that forgiving involves letting go of hurts/resentments.
My question - if you let these things go, aren't you forgetting? Aren't you essentially saying, "I've decided that it didn't kill me, so I'm going to let it pass. I will privately look at you as damaged goods and feel sorry for you, but I'm not going to be mad about it anymore. It no longer matters."
And then, how does this work when you turn it on yourself?
Is there really no justice in the world? Like, the A gets to hurt you over and over, and we forgive them over and over; if we're lucky, they get sober and get to start their lives over and yay for them. If they're lucky, their partner has stuck with them like a saint. Yay for them.
But if you're the partner, who stands with you? Your kids? Oh great. Thanks for reminding me that it's not just one life that AH is screwing up, it's the kids too. Oh yay for us all.
Tonight I watched my AH make a really stupid speech to our kids and nearly fall down crying while he did it. Of course he had been drinking. I just wanted him to die. I have wished that he would have a seizure and die, or hit a telephone pole and die. I can't remember the last time I went a day without wishing it so. I want him to stop polluting our children's eyes with this spectacle of crap. I actually got happy when he passed out because that's my signal that the display of crap has ended for the day.
But tomorrow will be a new day, I'll get up and make lunch, wish everyone a Great Day, Mommy Loves You All! Maybe I'll even offer to have relations with the spouse, as a kind of goodwill gesture because we all lived through another day. It won't matter how I felt tonight because the past is the past and we all start fresh every day. Like, nothing I felt matters as long as I can wake up to a new sunrise.
I just don't know what to do with all this accumulating hurt and despair. When I think about "letting go and letting god", I just wonder where all this crap is supposed to go.
I can feel and relate so well to your anger. I also wished my ex husband would die at times too because I couldn't see a way for it all to end and I felt hopeless and I was because I had put my life and the life of my family in the hands of an alcoholic.
I went to Alanon and it all changed for me and my family. We are all doing so much better now.
Forgiveness came through learning about the disease of alcoholism and learning that I was sick and my whole families thinking was distorted. I cant say I decided to forgive it was more a process of me freeing myself of the addiction to the drinker in my life and working on my own shortcomings. Forgiveness was about me letting go of the burden I was carrying about. A ton weight of bitterness, hate, anger resentment. to finally be able to release all that through forgiveness has been the biggest gift I have got from Alanon.
Look out the meetings on the website, go and give you and your family the most valuable gift you can ever imagine.
Hi Fedora as LC has stated, for me "forgiveness " is not about forgetting it is about letting go of the anger, resentment, self pity and fear that the disease has generated within me.
When I worked the Steps and found that all these negative feelings were trapped within me, flavoring all my days and interactions and only hurting me, I became willing to ask HP to lift them They have lifted, I have memories of all the difficult painful events, but I no longer feel the feelings associated with the event.
While working the Steps and clearing up the wreckage of the past, I was able to see my part in the insanity, uncover the lessons I should have learned while experiencing the encounter and grow.
There is a reading in the ODAT that states that "holding anger and resentments is like drinking poison and thinking the other person will die It also states it is not our job to punish anyone- That is up to HP.
By letting go of the past we allow ourselves to be in the present moment and feel the joy , happiness that is to be found .
During this processs I found there were actions that I could have taken, while enduring the insanity but did not-- I also had to then forgive myself and accept that now , with alanon tools I know better and am doing better.
Keep taking care of yourself and keep coming back
My therapist told me a helpful thing once - that forgiving is a lot easier when the situation has changed. So you are not challenged with facing the same old pain and heartbreak again. That change might be separating from the A, it might be the A becoming sober (we all know not to hold our breaths for that one, but sometimes it does happen), it might be just a change within ourselves. It probably means adjusting our expectations.
One thing that helped me is the saying "My choices, my results." I realized that the A was just acting the way he acts. I was the one who chose to expect something different from him, when he had given no indication that he wanted or could give something different. I was the one who chose to lumber him with my needs, even though I could have taken my needs to someone who could actually meet them (a healthier man, myself, my HP). I was the one who stuck around even though his inadequacy was very clear. I got myself into the situation. He only did half of it. I did the other half. When I saw that, I began to scale back on the blame I put on him. It would certainly be great if he had made different decisions along the way. It would have been great if I had too. But I, for one, have the choice of making different decisions coming up. When I realized that I had that freedom, I was able to let go of some of the resentment. That didn't erase the pain or heartache or sorrow. But I was able to let go of some of the anger part of it.
As the saying is, "Take what you like and leave the rest." Hope you will take good care of yourself.
Forgiveness means many different things to different people, so I appreciated the meaning used in AlAnon and suggested by hotrod and elcee above. I found great clarity in Courage to Change under the topic Forgiveness, particularly p. 289.
Nothing in AlAnon suggests that we stand in and accept unacceptable behavior, but it does suggest that we take the time and effort to understand our role in it so as to better determine what is best for us to do about it.
Hang in there, thoughts are with you
A member here that I love dearly had this in her signature..... "Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
This spoke to me each time she posted. For me, I did not want to carry that anger, resentment, blame of others, etc. around any more. I did not like waking each day with the negative affects of this disease present at the front of my mind. I wanted to be free from my own perceptions/views/attitudes about those with this disease. I was very judgmental and always looking outside myself to blame.
Working the steps and working with a sponsor helped me to truly let it go. I was one who when a new situation came up, my mind would go to, "nothing has changed....here I am hurt again while they carry on happy and as if nothing happened....." I had to change my thinking to, "this is a sick person and my HP doesn't want me to judge, hold grudges or resent them. He wants me to treat them as one who is suffering, because they were.
It's a cosmic shift in me resulting from working this program and the steps that changed what forgiveness means to me and for me. Great topic!!
As for forgiveness - it is a disease - and I am learning to forgive the "disease" part of it but I still feel anger that he wasn't a strong enough man to take control of the disease and time and time again he let it beat him. I guess where I struggle with the "disease" idea is in regards to this - cancer is a disease - nobody wants cancer - when you get cancer you have to do chemo and radiation and you pray it will go in remission. But as for alcoholism all a person has to do is stop drinking! Work your program, go to meetings, get a sponsor and just stop drinking. An A has all the control in their body to stop their "disease" - a cancer person does not.
jojo - I completely understand where you are. I actually had to do step work around my anger with God, as like you I had prayed for my qualifiers and nothing changed. I was able to let go of all of it by working the steps and realizing I was praying for my will and my way in my time frame. Just something to think about as you move forward.
As far as suggesting all an alcoholic has to do is stop drinking, work a program, etc... It's hard to explain to one who doesn't have addictive tendencies, but if it were that easy, many more would be in recovery than active or relapsing. It is an obsession of the mind and body, and it pulls constantly - even after years of without for many. An A has no more control over this obsession than a cancer patient has on relapse or recurrence.
Most alcoholics are strong, smart and survivors. I've watched many people smarter than I die because of this disease. You can hold on to anger for as long as you want/need to, but holding on or letting go is not going to change what anyone else does/doesn't do. This is where recovery comes for us - we accept we are powerless and can't affect changes in others - no matter how much we want to or wish it to be.
Thanks for your opinion and thoughts - I'm honestly not angry at him (at least I don't feel the rage of anger in my heart I have felt multiple times during the past two years). I'm done allowing his drinking to control my moods...and in the past when he has told me that he was getting ready to detox (4 times in the past year) I have always been filled with worry, anxiety, fear for him but this time was different - this time I honestly felt nothing and simply thought "well here he goes again.....good luck to him".
I am really trying to believe that alcoholism is a disease and I've come along way from when I use to just think that was a line of crap, an excuse that A's made for their behavior. But even though he has this disease he has also had the tools at his fingertips to get better and time and time again he has chosen not too. It would be like a cancer patient knowing that their only chance to get better and stay alive is to do chemo and radiation and choosing not too. This detox hell that he is now going through was his choice when he chose to quit working the program, quit going to meetings and picked up that first drink again - and I'm not going to allow his choice to control my moods and my life anymore. And I feel really, really good about that!
Each alcoholic has to reach a bottom that is personal to them. Just as each Al-Anon member reaches a bottom. When the pain is great enough, then comes change. It is a devastating deadly disease for many and it's sad to watch/witness.
Good on you for deciding to live your life in spite of his disease. Taking back personal power is worthy of feeling good about! Keep coming back!
Jojo,
I get it. I understand how watching someone drunk, blabbering on about something, literally taking all the oxygen in the room can simply be too much. It's not about anger, it's the fact that you and your children are not only subjected to the drinking, but he is making himself the center of attention.
My AH does that when he is drinking. He engages everyone in whatever speech, drama, slight or topic he is focused on. we can leave a room, the house or the city and he demands that he gets the attention.
When I read your original post, I giggled a little. I too have had many of those moments. I thank my HP for u answered prayers just because of those moments.Those thoughts are typical. It's like every molecule in the room is being absorbed by the drunk. How could we not have a few of those thoughts. You are not bad.
Fedora, I've long thought that the concept of forgiveness indicates some level of a mistaken sense of control or blame. I don't think I have the power to forgive anyone for anything, if I say "I forgive you" it's like I've got some special power and I'm judging you and making you less than me. I can accept what someone has done and remove my ideas/reactions/emotions that I've attached to that thing. But if someone wants me to forgive them for something, then they must imagine that I blame them for whatever that thing is. I will readily take responsibility for something that I've done that I think was wrong, but I wouldn't ask someone to forgive me, I'd rather have them understand me or accept me, and I would rather understand or accept the other person, too. So if I turn it on myself, I want to understand myself and do better next time.
I don't know if this makes any sense, but I've been uncomfortable with the idea of forgiveness as it seems to keep blame alive.
Thank you for your kind words and I'm glad I made you giggle. The situation with my A is unique in regards to we aren't married to each other....it's complicated....but I am "blessed" that I don't live with him and don't have to witness his drinking - also he is a functioning alcoholic - he drinks so he can work, can get through his day and function - there is no slurring his words, no abusive behavior towards anyone and as far as I know he isn't an attention seeker when he drinks.
The problem I have with my ABF is his need / alcoholism to control everything in our relationship - whether he texts or not, calls or not, see me or not....and I'm sick of it and not willing to allow him and his alcoholism to control my time, life or happiness anymore.
Thanks for being willing to understand what I'm trying to say and for not thinking I'm a bad person for some of my thoughts! I really appreciate it!
Glad we can giggle at things,
Fedora, I meant to gear my post to your oiginal post on this tnread and was referencing your "thoughts" you have during the public speeches
It won't matter how I felt tonight because the past is the past and we all start fresh every day. Like, nothing I felt matters as long as I can wake up to a new sunrise. -----------
------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
That is how I saw it also, before I went to AlAnon meetings for quite a while. I didn't WANT to forgive because I felt then I was setting myself up to be hurt one more time... and then another, and then another. I can forgive, I've learned, and I don't have to forget. I don't want to forget because that is how I learn to avoid certain situations and behaviors. I learn how to be different myself and put myself into different settings. I am much healthier mentally, emotionally and physically.
I DO look at my hubby as damaged goods, but it is what it is. He is what he is. I see/saw so much more "potential" in him, but it was up to him to develop all of it. It was never up to me. I thought being a supportive wife/cheerleader and making him look good would be the most important role I could have with him. That was how I thought when we first married. It was good for a couple of years, but then he got his "reasons" to drink every night and he never lived up to what I thought of his "potential". I realize now that this was all crazy thinking on my part and that was some of my part in the disease. The other big part of my part of the disease is that I let it happen to me. I was proud that I was strong and could take it. I didn't stand up for myself. I didn't make myself visible. I was happy to be the cheerleader instead of living my own life. Of course, he liked me the way it was and totally resisted my changes when I got into AlAnon and learned a new way to look at things. But that is his problem and I don't need to defend my choices.
As far as the saying "let go and let God". I love that saying. But if you think that praying to your HP is like putting your quarters into a vending machine and then getting your candy/wish...... Nope. AlAnon is a program of honesty. To be able to look at any situation honestly. To see it for what it really is. When you see it for what it is, you realize that you didn't cause it, can't control it, can't change it..... but your HP can do whatever He/She wants and we get to let go and watch what happens. We don't have to get involved. We are only responsible for our own stuff.
We do have to work to protect ourselves, our heart, our soul...... what ever that means in each individual situation. Be honest with your kids. Be honest with yourself. Take care of yourself.
Once again I am struck by how many people seem to have walked in my shoes, and how I did not invent the role of Partner of an Alcoholic. I swear, if I didn't know better, I'd think my spouse was double, triple, quadruple timing me with so many people I've read about on this board. Like, how does he get out so often?!
But seriously, it has helped me a lot even in the moment. One poster had mentioned gym attendance. When I came home tonight and was thinking, oh gosh, here we go again. I just pretty much went straight to the treadmill downstairs. Cranked up the music and walked. Bought myself 40 minutes of peace that way, even if it was just avoiding the person upstairs. I'm getting my reading stuff out again.
Several mentioned that nothing changes until we finally decide that what we have really is worse than what we could have. In that sense I get that the A and the partner are in the same boat. I guess I have not hit my own rock bottom yet. Ugh. We are still together. As long as that remains true, I really don't get to complain that we are stuck together.
The statement about HP being like a vending machine - that was very convicting to me because I am sure I have thought of HP that way. I have been trained to think that way by my (now previous) religion. Right now I feel like, whether there is a HP or not, it doesn't actually matter because it doesn't impact my life at all in the sense that whatever the HP decides to make happen (if one believes that there is one), then it will happen. I can, theoretically, operate under the same principles as if there is no HP and everything is random. (Just typing this, I'm getting a random thrill thinking about what my relations would say if they knew I had such thoughts. I might get nominated for an exorcism.)
I've thought A LOT about the comparison of alcoholism and cancer and how much choice is involved. In my own family, my dad was told over and over again by his doctors that he needed to get healthier otherwise he was going to get diabetes (which he did) and high blood pressure (which he did), and that he would have to get all kinds of medical interventions (which he did). In fact, he ended up needing quadruple bypass surgery and had a stroke which didn't kill him (unlucky for him) but left him paralyzed on one side of his body. Couldn't talk, eat, move for the last 9 years of his life. His shoulder became permanently dislocated. (That happens when you can't control your muscles enough to hold your body together.) And that was the least of the problems. He eventually developed colon cancer. Didn't die from it, though. Nope, he actually died after he choked to death on his own vomit when the nursing home folks didn't check on him. The only prayer that ever got answered during those 10 years came at the end. I went to see him after he had been revived after choking and I realized that he was still alive and aware but that his lungs were so messed up that he was drowning one breath at a time and it was going to take an indeterminate amount of time for him to die. At that point I got on my knees and begged God to take him. I didn't know you could live that close to death and suffer like that. It took almost a week for him to suffocate to death. The only mercy granted to him was that they gave him some medicine to (ostensibly) make him sleepy so he wouldn't know he was suffocating. And even then it took days. (They had him on a vent, and he managed to recover enough to come off the vent. Talk about a nightmare. If he had been on the vent we could have just turned it off. But no. He just lay there, struggling to breathe. In the end they did put him back on the vent and sedated him and then he eventually passed.)
When we were going through his belongings, my mom came upon a bag stashed under dad's office table at home which had countless bottles of meds. Blood pressure, insulin, everything. Apparently my dad didn't ever take any of his meds. Don't know why. We never got the chance to ask why he did anything that dumb. My mom fell apart into a thousand pieces then. It's like we had discovered that dad had chosen this road. He had no idea how bad the road was going to be, but the evidence was right there in front of us.
I was so shocked, I couldn't get angry. The way I spun it in my head was that my dad decided somewhere down the line that meds were not for him. Whether he realized or not how bad it could get is something we'll never know. He certainly was told. (I remember that he sat down my brother and I and told us that his doctor had made these pronouncements. We assumed that it was a good wake up call and that dad would be taking care of himself from then on. Turns out we were wrong.) His decision set off a domino chain of events that was simply more horrible than anything any of us could have possibly imagined happening.
I feel like my AH is playing with his own set of dominoes. And I just have to watch the game play itself out again. It is so difficult because my AH knows what happened to my dad. He knows how I feel about making bad decisions about one's health. But of course, alcoholism doesn't care. Maybe it's just genetics - my mom married someone who was incapable of doing the right thing when it mattered the most and suffered the consequences. Looks like I may have done the same thing.
I guess I just have to "suck it up". I couldn't fix my dad, I can't fix my spouse, and there's no guarantee I'll be able to keep my kids from following the family business of becoming a boozer. This Step 1 literally drives me to the floor. The idea that "it's half mine" is very convicting as well. I married my AH despite many people's advice that I was making a poor decision. It IS my fault that I'm in this mess. UGH.
Anyway, I'm not going to go to bed riding on a self-hatred/pity party. I'm thinking that tomorrow I am going to get up and pat myself on the back for making it thought another day. I'm going to try and exercise again during the daytime. I'm going to not harass the AH at work or at home. I'm going to do My business and take care of Me.
Keep coming back - ODAT!!