I'm new and for the past four months have been with a new man. He's loving and caring and kind but in the first week I noticed that he smelled of alcohol in the morning and I put it down to maybe a spilled drink on his coat or something. Then when he was staying over he would be up and down all night taking his bag with him to the bathroom and having diarrhoea. He would sleep on the sofa saying that he wasn't used to sharing a bed and he had diarrhoea so didn't want to be in bed. He blamed this on food he'd eaten and his stomach problem but it's been going on for months now. I saw vodka in his bag and now know that he's been drinking from it all weekend. One morning I got up and found him drinking gin from the bottle. I've asked him about it and suggested AA. He says he's a binge drinker at weekends and doesn't drink during the week and would give up because I was more important. I suspect this has been going on for over 10 years ( I know a friend of a friend of his). He has stomach problems and is sick and the diarrhoea continues although he says he's given up drinking. My question is, can you just give up this type of behaviour after so many years?? Is he an alcoholic and should I just leave as it's early days? We recently went away for a week and he was sick - throwing up for two days and sleeping - he wasn't drinking during this time - was he detoxing? Also, he's lost a lot of weight in the last three months.
Any advice would be very welcome.
Thank you!
hotrod said
Aug 12, 2016
Hi Welcome It is difficult to determine if someone is an alcoholic hereis a web site with important questions to help.
Thanks Betty but I can't really answer the questions for him. I guess I just wanted someone else's perspective but I know it's difficult to form a conclusion. He says 'maybe he is an alcoholic' because he binge drinks. From what I've read he seems to have many of the symptoms of alcoholism.
Thanks again.
Iamhere said
Aug 12, 2016
Welcome Geraldine - one thing that I heard many, many years ago - if alcohol is causing any problems in your life, it's worthy of a look at it. This means physical, social, emotional, etc. Not all alcoholics drink daily and not all alcoholics get arrested, loose jobs, live under bridges, etc. I was really lacking in knowledge when I first came to recovery so that very simple statement helped me to determine it was a problem in my own life.
AA helped me stay sober and see how much of a problem it was, as well as the damage I had done. Flash forward 20+ years, and I ended up in Al-Anon because of family members' disease of alcoholism. Both programs use the same 12 steps to recover, and recovery is a personal journey. The only person who can determine if there is a problem is the person. The only way to recover is to choose it.
Hope this helps - keep coming back!
Jerry F said
Aug 12, 2016
(((((Geraldine))))) welcome to the board and you are so right that you cannot answer the questions for him. What is most important is that if he is truly concerned for his physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health and does not want to succumb to a fatal disease he ought go to a clinic or hospital and get an assessment. Let the ones that know have the information. I can tell you from being in that profession just by listening to your share here that the chances are real that he is under the influence of alcoholism. You have cited evidence here that points toward it and also the physical symptoms he is suffering right now may very well be from the consumption of alcohol. You cannot imagine how powerful and destructive the chemical is to the human systems.
Suggest that he find an assessment location and then go right away. This disease is thousands of years old and has killed zillions both drinkers and not. I was 9 years alcohol free before I took my own assessment and after I turned in the anonymous assessment was told by the head nurse at the rehab I worked for that "whoever the assessment belonged to needed to be in inpatient recovery or the next time they drank they died." There are so many dangerous levels of alcoholism. Had him the phone books yellow pages or get on the computer (which I am on now and while an ad for the "Addiction Network" is running on the TV. He can look that up and call the toll free number.
Today could be the best day for you and for him to start to understand. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
Mattie said
Aug 12, 2016
I'm glad you have found us. Of course we cannot know everything from just being on the other end of the computer, but these are not the behaviors of someone who has a normal relationship with alcohol. He carries vodka in his bag? I mean, who does that? Why would anyone want or need to do that? I recognize that strategy of taking a bag into the bathroom every time from my own alcoholic ex-husband. And you've smelled alcohol on him in the morning. And so much diarrhoea - why wouldn't he want to consult a doctor to take care of that? And he acknowledges that he binge-drinks on the weekend. Even if that's "all" he does, normal people don't binge-drink ever. Maybe during college, some normal people do - as they grow past college age, not. Your senses are picking up on important things.
And from what you describe, it sounds very unlikely that he's "only" drinking on weekends. What it may be is that he only drinks openly on weekends. The rest of the time it's in the bag and sneaking off to the bathroom. Or sleeping on the sofa so that he can take swigs whenever he wants. (If he's suffering from diarrhoea, why would it be better to get it on your sofa than on your bed?)
As to whether people just give up drinking like this overnight - no, 99.9% of them don't. However, it is a sign of alcoholism that they say that they will. They act as if it's really no problem. And unless we have a lot of understanding of alcoholism, they're so convincing that we tend to believe them. Until we see that they're still drinking, still hiding it, still doing all the rest.
What I wish I had known before I started this journey is that only 15-25% of alcoholics who enter a program of recovery stick with it and stay sober longterm. I thought it was just a matter of sort of flipping a switch and he would be recovered. It's a long, hard road, and the majority of drinkers do not stick it out. I would have made different decisions if I had known the odds.
I hope you'll learn all you can about alcoholism, find a good face-to-face meeting, get the literature, read the threads here, and keep coming back. Hugs.
Geraldine said
Aug 12, 2016
Thank you so much. You are all so kind. I know that none of the things that he's doing are normal and it's causing him problems and I do wonder why I would want to continue to see him. I suppose I want him to change for me but that's never going to happen. I wanted to believe him.
I hardly ever drink - I've never liked it and i guess I don't understand the reasoning behind his drinking. I don't mind normal drinking at all but I know there's a problem when someone's swigging vodka from his bag and he seems to have no embarrassment about being caught out, which I don't understand. He just says that he doesn't need to drink.
Apparently the doctor told him there was a blockage in his intestine and when I asked what the follow up treatment would be he said that there would be none! The next time I asked he told me there was nothing wrong with his intestine???!!
I think there's only so much vomiting and diarrhoea I can take :)
This is all so helpful. Talking to people who know about this makes so much difference to just reading about it.
Geraldine said
Aug 12, 2016
Mattie - I just reread your message and this part stood out "I would have made different decisions if I had known the odds". Yup - you're so right!
Geraldine said
Aug 14, 2016
So, we broke up.
He's writing abusive text messages.
One minute he says he has an alcohol problem. The next he tells me that I'm the problem because I nag him about alcohol ( I thought that i was being very careful about how I approached the problem)
He's still in love with me (he says) and I can still put this right despite the fact that I have behaved so badly - brilliant!! He says he has some minor issues about me that he would like me to address. I say I have one massive issue that I would like him to deal with.
I tell him that the problem starts with a bottle of vodka and that I'm not introducing any of the various problems into the relationship.
He says that he will do the research on the help he needs and will decide on a course of action however, he also says that he only drinks between 4pm and 11pm and not during the week. He works from Monday morning to Thursday afternoon and so his weekends are quite long. He says he doesn't really understand why I think he needs help but then acknowledges that he does.
He acknowledges that when we went on holiday some of his illness could have been self inflicted (I assume he means by alcohol but I insisted he didn't drink during that week away).
My question is, is this me? Am I going completely mad. i don't create problems where there isn't one.
I don't feel in any way guilty. I do feel a loss about what could have been and the future we could have had. Have I got this wrong?
Iamhere said
Aug 14, 2016
Working the program gave me answers to the questions you ask - because I too thought I was completely mad/insane! As I worked the program and steps, I was better able to see my part in the drama/chaos, and work to change me. Recovery is a personal journey - I no longer respond to baiting from my qualifiers - I find something else to do with my time.
It's completely normal to mourn what was and/or what could have been! I think we've all been there. Just breathe and be nice to you today! Stay present and trust that what is happening is what is supposed to be!
You are not alone!
Mattie said
Aug 14, 2016
The thinking of an alcoholic is completely addled. That's why they're full of contradictions, so many contradictions that it can be crazy-making. Promises and denials at the same time. Resentment and enticements. It's the disease talking. What they most want is for the alcoholism not to interfere with any of the other things they want - I mean, while keeping the alcoholism. Keeping the alcoholism is priority number 1. To do this they have to be in full denial of its bad effects, such a complete denial that it almost qualifies them for clinical insanity. It's the kind of thinking that, like an insane person, no one can talk them out of. But they also want the ease and fun of having a relationship, so they go through all kinds of maneuvers to convince us that nothing is wrong or if it is wrong they will change it or if it is wrong, it's a delusion on our parts and we need to fix our crazy thinking. Typically when we try to break up, there are all kind of pleas about how devoted they are and how desolate they will be without us and so on. If that's true, the doors of AA are always open and they can start without all the promises to us. But I have seen this pattern over and over and over again: they lure us back with promises of going into recovery, and maybe they even start AA for a while - but as soon as they feel they have us securely back, the AA goes out the window and the whole roller coaster starts up again.
Whenever my alcoholic started AA - and he started many times - I thought, "This is just what I've been wishing for, should I leave now? Just when what I wanted is happening?" I didn't realize that recovery is a long hard road and things will not be calm or secure for 1-2 years - if indeed he sticks with it. My A never stuck with it. It is two decades along from the first time and he is still drinking. I finally realized that it was not going to happen, after many more years of pain and false hope than I would wish on anybody, and we separated.
The thing about us Al-Anoners is that we often have our own troublesome thinking - alcoholism drags everyone around it into the insanity, even when we think we still have perspective. And our own faulty thinking often leads to a syndrome where we decide to leave but then we go back and forth and we return to him, then there's chaos, we break up, we miss him or feel lonely or afraid or sad, we go back, there's chaos, we break up... And so on. It doesn't happen to everyone, but to enough of us that it's really helpful to work the Al-Anon program and get all the tools we can to handle the situation, make good decisions (whether to leave or stay), and follow through on them as appropriate.
I hope you'll find a good meeting and take good care of yourself.
Geraldine said
Aug 15, 2016
More abusive text messages. I find it very difficult to read these things. i feel like i've just done 10 rounds in a boxing ring. Perfectly reasonable on the phone and then a barrage of abuse when I decline his attempts to make it work. He says his friend says he's not an alcoholic and cant see a problem with drinking vodka in secret - ' what only a quarter of a bottle of vodka and she thinks you have a problem'. Apparently I'm insecure, an insensitive lover - he has quite a loop 'droop' :) Sorry to have speak about his erectile dysfunction. He also injects steroids which is a new revelation.
My problem is that I can't leave it alone. I should just leave it here but I'm picking away at it.
Doingmybest said
Aug 15, 2016
Welcome to alcoholism my friend. I wish no one ever had to face this monster again. Abusive texting? Where is the loving, wonderful, kind man who was ther before? He's finding the "soft, accepting, amazing lady" is opening her eyes. We can only hide for so long and finally someone sees. For an alcoholic, this is a major turning point because it is when the "gloves come off". I do not necessarily mean physical. What I am referring to is that loosing that perfect, understanding, accepting "soft landing spot" makes most of them come "unglued" IMHO. When we resist the BS they are feeding us, they can quickly change directions until they find one that works. Most alcoholics have an almost limitless number of "tricks" in their bag to manipulate others, especially those they find most likely to accept their BS excuses or explanations.
You sound by your post to be quite reasonable and quite intelligent and to know the answers to your questions already. AlAnon face to face meetings, even if you only visit for a while, will help clarify what is really going I in your thoughts. It is really quite amazing how quickly we get "sucked in" to the love and support we have always wanted and then don't want to give that up, despite the real things changing everyday. You are certainly not alone with this type of situation and the physical symptoms and the denials and manipulation so you describe seem to me to be clear indicators of alcoholism that has been "left unchecked" for a long, long time. Physical symptoms like ED, diarrhea, inability to stop drinking straight grain alcohol from a bottle and trying to hide it or justify it when caught, and the other behaviors you have described are very serious.
Only he can decided if he wants to stop drinking and he will if he wants to, but never, never for someone else (if he is to become successful). He has to want it more than anything else and he has to be willing to do what is necessary to face the consequences of the years of drinking. "Normal" drinkers simply cannot handle copious amounts of straight grain alcohol. Imagine if you were to drink vodka or gin straigh from the bottle all day and night like that. How would you feel? How would your badly react?
Please consider the meetings. I resisted at first and even took a four year break before going back (after the obligatory six I decided on). I even went back mostly because my now recovering AH kept hinting at it. When I did though, I found a place I belonged and have even sought out a sponsor...for ME!
Alcoholism is progressive and will always get worse...for the alcoholic and for the people they "touch" with their disease. Please consider AlAnon before you make hard and fast decisions, but please remember that abuse of any kind is never acceptable and always gets worse. If we give a child what they want when they scream, they learn to scream louder and longer to get what they want. Alcoholism is very like this only we are generally adults and alcohol and other "rewards" are the point for the manipulative action.
Peace to you and please keep coming back.
Geraldine said
Aug 15, 2016
Thank you! It's so helpful here.
I know I should not defend myself and not get sucked in. This is early days and it's been so very unpleasant already - I can't imagine how the future would be. My only difficulty is wondering if I'm wrong but that feeling is rapidly disappearing.
I've also noticed that everything that he says I am, is him. He's not describing me but describing himself and then of course I go in to defend myself and we do a ridiculous, nonsensical, circular dance.
I now know that his ex was telling him to go to AA 10 years ago. He's in trouble with alcohol and I can't help and nor do I want to.
I have been saying 'no' then he brow beat me into agreeing to seeing him on Friday. I've now cancelled that - of course followed by abuse and 'I love you' 'you don't want love - you're too insecure, I've helped you do this that and the other etc etc'. He seems to think that by helping me fix my boiler and doing tiny things around the house to help that I should be eternally grateful. I would do these things for a stranger and expect nothing in return - is that also alcoholic behaviour? I find it so very strange.
Mattie said
Aug 15, 2016
The thing is that by all these accusations, arguments, helping, etc., he's keeping you engaged. And that's his ultimate goal. He almost had someone who will put up with his drinking (with a little complaining - but they can handle that - it's the staying that counts, and he almost had someone who stayed for all the insanity! That is having his cake and eating it too for an alcoholic - someone who will put up with the chaos and maltreatment! They feel so satisfied when they can snag someone like that and have their own personal emotional punching bag). So he will pull out all the stops to manipulate you to stay engaged with him.
And the craziness is such that it messes with our minds. I always just found it hard to believe. It wasn't like breaking up with a normal guy - "Oh well, it didn't work, that's sad, he behaved badly, that was awful, now I'm sad but I'm moving on." It's more the feeling of having been scammed by a confidence trick. You just feel blindsided. "I trusted him but he was really WHAT?" And there's a sort of craving to undo it and believe it wasn't as bad as it was.
I've observed that many cases are like my case, where I had so much trouble letting go that I thought, "Something extra must be going on here. Why would I have trouble letting go of someone who treated me badly and who clearly has massive problems?" Part of it, I concluded, was that my family of origin was neglectful and off-and-on like he was. They wanted to love me, they were actually good people, but they just didn't have the emotional wherewithal to do it. So I grew up with that craving for love and that feeling that the best I could get was a kind of half attention. And the craving to make it different this one time. So my attachment to him triggered all of that. Like "At last I will make sure I get the love I want! From this person whose neglect feels so familiar!"
In my case, I found the saying "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing." I had to say it to myself over and over and OVER and over. Some hours I probably said it to myself 60 times an hour. Because the intrusive thoughts kept coming back. Not forever, but for a while. Gradually I got perspective and I saw how sick our relationship had been and I began to thank my lucky stars that I got out when I did. (Which was, however, not nearly soon enough.) I only found peace through not engaging with him. Because all he had to do to keep me engaged was to refuse to see my point of view - and that came naturally to him! So he had me permanently enmeshed - until I shut the door and refused to play any longer.
Take good care of yourself. And get lots of support! It's all so much easier with lots of support. Hugs.
Iamhere said
Aug 15, 2016
Geraldine - the program suggests that we do all that we can to change what we can. We can never change another person and obsessing over their actions, words, deeds, points of view is part of our disease. We are asked to not focus on them, and not discuss them but rather focus on ourselves and our own recovery. The gift I heard early on was the three Cs - We did not cause it, we can not cure it and we can not control it. You can replace it with the disease, the words, the names, the actions, the ... - I use this often in my mind to right-size me and stop blaming them for where I am.
We have choices in the program. We can step off the roller-coaster when we want to. I have blocked my qualifiers before to get myself focused on me/my program. Thinking about what they do, what they don't do, what they will do is absolute crazy-making. Again, that's part of our disease - we give away our power to them, and we focus outside ourselves to keep from looking at our part. It's not intentional - it's a characteristic of living with the disease.
Trying to guess what another person will say or do next is rarely successful. Each alcoholic progresses differently in their disease. While there are some common characteristics, it's part of our illness to expect or assume that they will all xxxxxxxxx. So - for me, in the beginning, each time my mind would wonder to what ifs or what's next? - I would say the serenity prayer, read a daily reader or come here or a meeting.
Watching others who worked great programs, and rarely discussed their alcoholic but rather kept the focus on them truly helped me see what recovery looked like. It's easy to blame the qualifier and/or the disease and/or the (insert what you want) but it's not recovery. It's more denial and denial with this disease is huge in all affected - family and qualifier.
Breathe in and know that there is hope and help. Each time your mind wonders, work to breathe and recenter. Make you and your peace of mind a priority - just for today. That's what I was told early on, and to repeat it each day until it became the new habit. We learn detachment, boundaries and empathy for the sick in recovery. Al-Anon gives us the tools for a peaceful existence no matter what others are/are not doing!!
Keep coming back!
KennyFenderjazz said
Aug 15, 2016
Hi Geraldine,
IN Al Anon, we have a couple of sayings that I think apply here,. One is that you don't have to JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, or Engage. Just say your truth and be done. As noted above, the alcoholic will try to keep you engaged, and may think with that he still has you committed to him/her. The hard part for me is the "be done" part. I will go on and on myself hoping that my A gets the point. Then I realize that I can't beat the point into her, either she gets it or she doesn't, but I have said my peace.
We also say that you don't have to attend every fight you're invited to. It's kinda related to JADE.
You're doing well, keep coming back and sharing!
Kenny
Aerin said
Aug 15, 2016
Wow Geraldine.. this is what I go through. my A says the exact stuff to me. It is so hard to believe that they all seem to have some kind of script. So aggravating and yes it makes me feel like maybe I am the crazy one and just not accepting him for him. (which he says a LOT and that makes me feel bad, since some advice I have read is to "love them as they are") I learn more and more that they purposely twist things around to hide what they are doing and I when I bring that up he is so angry. He insists he is not doing anything hurtful behind my back and I need to stop being so mistrustful. And his friends tell him things like "the ol woman making you stop having a few beers huh?" I am starting to feel like what Mattie says.. this will be a roller coaster most likely forever. Its been 4yrs and its true..it just goes up and down and same issue.. hes actually drinking less and then he celebrates drinking less by drinking! I could see him doing this even with AA. I think we need to learn why we think this is all "worth" it.
Geraldine said
Aug 15, 2016
Hi Aerin
They're probably the same man! Nothing would surprise me :)
Mattie makes so much sense to me too. I think it's also really important to laugh about it too. Find the funny side. Even if it's just what you've fired back in defence by text (although I've stopped texting).
My daughter's older than yours but I still have to set an example to her. It's so important that she does not think this sort of behaviour is acceptable or else she might very well do the same thing.
It's not worth any of the time spent on it, the exhaustion, the anger, the distress the sheer rudeness. Surely, we should all expect to be to spoken to with kindness and understanding? I feel that if someone behaved this way at work he would be fired, instantly. It seems to be acceptable that rudeness, lack of care and honesty from one's spouse or partner is acceptable when it's totally unacceptable in any other relationship or work place. I think lead by example. Treat someone as you wish to be treated and expect it back - no demand it back!
Maybe, I've got this entirely wrong but I can't see that any other way to live equals happiness. YOU are worth so much more. I've read all your posts and commented ( bearing in mind, Im new here and possibly saying the wrong things) but I was so outraged on your behalf.
HI
I'm new and for the past four months have been with a new man. He's loving and caring and kind but in the first week I noticed that he smelled of alcohol in the morning and I put it down to maybe a spilled drink on his coat or something. Then when he was staying over he would be up and down all night taking his bag with him to the bathroom and having diarrhoea. He would sleep on the sofa saying that he wasn't used to sharing a bed and he had diarrhoea so didn't want to be in bed. He blamed this on food he'd eaten and his stomach problem but it's been going on for months now. I saw vodka in his bag and now know that he's been drinking from it all weekend. One morning I got up and found him drinking gin from the bottle. I've asked him about it and suggested AA. He says he's a binge drinker at weekends and doesn't drink during the week and would give up because I was more important. I suspect this has been going on for over 10 years ( I know a friend of a friend of his). He has stomach problems and is sick and the diarrhoea continues although he says he's given up drinking. My question is, can you just give up this type of behaviour after so many years?? Is he an alcoholic and should I just leave as it's early days? We recently went away for a week and he was sick - throwing up for two days and sleeping - he wasn't drinking during this time - was he detoxing? Also, he's lost a lot of weight in the last three months.
Any advice would be very welcome.
Thank you!
Hi Welcome It is difficult to determine if someone is an alcoholic hereis a web site with important questions to help.
www.aa.org/pages/en_US/is-aa-for-you-twelve-questions-only-you-can-answer
Thanks again.
AA helped me stay sober and see how much of a problem it was, as well as the damage I had done. Flash forward 20+ years, and I ended up in Al-Anon because of family members' disease of alcoholism. Both programs use the same 12 steps to recover, and recovery is a personal journey. The only person who can determine if there is a problem is the person. The only way to recover is to choose it.
Hope this helps - keep coming back!
(((((Geraldine))))) welcome to the board and you are so right that you cannot answer the questions for him. What is most important is that if he is truly concerned for his physical, mental, emotional and spiritual health and does not want to succumb to a fatal disease he ought go to a clinic or hospital and get an assessment. Let the ones that know have the information. I can tell you from being in that profession just by listening to your share here that the chances are real that he is under the influence of alcoholism. You have cited evidence here that points toward it and also the physical symptoms he is suffering right now may very well be from the consumption of alcohol. You cannot imagine how powerful and destructive the chemical is to the human systems.
Suggest that he find an assessment location and then go right away. This disease is thousands of years old and has killed zillions both drinkers and not. I was 9 years alcohol free before I took my own assessment and after I turned in the anonymous assessment was told by the head nurse at the rehab I worked for that "whoever the assessment belonged to needed to be in inpatient recovery or the next time they drank they died." There are so many dangerous levels of alcoholism. Had him the phone books yellow pages or get on the computer (which I am on now and while an ad for the "Addiction Network" is running on the TV. He can look that up and call the toll free number.
Today could be the best day for you and for him to start to understand. Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))
I'm glad you have found us. Of course we cannot know everything from just being on the other end of the computer, but these are not the behaviors of someone who has a normal relationship with alcohol. He carries vodka in his bag? I mean, who does that? Why would anyone want or need to do that? I recognize that strategy of taking a bag into the bathroom every time from my own alcoholic ex-husband. And you've smelled alcohol on him in the morning. And so much diarrhoea - why wouldn't he want to consult a doctor to take care of that? And he acknowledges that he binge-drinks on the weekend. Even if that's "all" he does, normal people don't binge-drink ever. Maybe during college, some normal people do - as they grow past college age, not. Your senses are picking up on important things.
And from what you describe, it sounds very unlikely that he's "only" drinking on weekends. What it may be is that he only drinks openly on weekends. The rest of the time it's in the bag and sneaking off to the bathroom. Or sleeping on the sofa so that he can take swigs whenever he wants. (If he's suffering from diarrhoea, why would it be better to get it on your sofa than on your bed?)
As to whether people just give up drinking like this overnight - no, 99.9% of them don't. However, it is a sign of alcoholism that they say that they will. They act as if it's really no problem. And unless we have a lot of understanding of alcoholism, they're so convincing that we tend to believe them. Until we see that they're still drinking, still hiding it, still doing all the rest.
What I wish I had known before I started this journey is that only 15-25% of alcoholics who enter a program of recovery stick with it and stay sober longterm. I thought it was just a matter of sort of flipping a switch and he would be recovered. It's a long, hard road, and the majority of drinkers do not stick it out. I would have made different decisions if I had known the odds.
I hope you'll learn all you can about alcoholism, find a good face-to-face meeting, get the literature, read the threads here, and keep coming back. Hugs.
I hardly ever drink - I've never liked it and i guess I don't understand the reasoning behind his drinking. I don't mind normal drinking at all but I know there's a problem when someone's swigging vodka from his bag and he seems to have no embarrassment about being caught out, which I don't understand. He just says that he doesn't need to drink.
Apparently the doctor told him there was a blockage in his intestine and when I asked what the follow up treatment would be he said that there would be none! The next time I asked he told me there was nothing wrong with his intestine???!!
I think there's only so much vomiting and diarrhoea I can take :)
This is all so helpful. Talking to people who know about this makes so much difference to just reading about it.
He's writing abusive text messages.
One minute he says he has an alcohol problem. The next he tells me that I'm the problem because I nag him about alcohol ( I thought that i was being very careful about how I approached the problem)
He's still in love with me (he says) and I can still put this right despite the fact that I have behaved so badly - brilliant!! He says he has some minor issues about me that he would like me to address. I say I have one massive issue that I would like him to deal with.
I tell him that the problem starts with a bottle of vodka and that I'm not introducing any of the various problems into the relationship.
He says that he will do the research on the help he needs and will decide on a course of action however, he also says that he only drinks between 4pm and 11pm and not during the week. He works from Monday morning to Thursday afternoon and so his weekends are quite long. He says he doesn't really understand why I think he needs help but then acknowledges that he does.
He acknowledges that when we went on holiday some of his illness could have been self inflicted (I assume he means by alcohol but I insisted he didn't drink during that week away).
My question is, is this me? Am I going completely mad. i don't create problems where there isn't one.
I don't feel in any way guilty. I do feel a loss about what could have been and the future we could have had. Have I got this wrong?
It's completely normal to mourn what was and/or what could have been! I think we've all been there. Just breathe and be nice to you today! Stay present and trust that what is happening is what is supposed to be!
You are not alone!
The thinking of an alcoholic is completely addled. That's why they're full of contradictions, so many contradictions that it can be crazy-making. Promises and denials at the same time. Resentment and enticements. It's the disease talking. What they most want is for the alcoholism not to interfere with any of the other things they want - I mean, while keeping the alcoholism. Keeping the alcoholism is priority number 1. To do this they have to be in full denial of its bad effects, such a complete denial that it almost qualifies them for clinical insanity. It's the kind of thinking that, like an insane person, no one can talk them out of. But they also want the ease and fun of having a relationship, so they go through all kinds of maneuvers to convince us that nothing is wrong or if it is wrong they will change it or if it is wrong, it's a delusion on our parts and we need to fix our crazy thinking. Typically when we try to break up, there are all kind of pleas about how devoted they are and how desolate they will be without us and so on. If that's true, the doors of AA are always open and they can start without all the promises to us. But I have seen this pattern over and over and over again: they lure us back with promises of going into recovery, and maybe they even start AA for a while - but as soon as they feel they have us securely back, the AA goes out the window and the whole roller coaster starts up again.
Whenever my alcoholic started AA - and he started many times - I thought, "This is just what I've been wishing for, should I leave now? Just when what I wanted is happening?" I didn't realize that recovery is a long hard road and things will not be calm or secure for 1-2 years - if indeed he sticks with it. My A never stuck with it. It is two decades along from the first time and he is still drinking. I finally realized that it was not going to happen, after many more years of pain and false hope than I would wish on anybody, and we separated.
The thing about us Al-Anoners is that we often have our own troublesome thinking - alcoholism drags everyone around it into the insanity, even when we think we still have perspective. And our own faulty thinking often leads to a syndrome where we decide to leave but then we go back and forth and we return to him, then there's chaos, we break up, we miss him or feel lonely or afraid or sad, we go back, there's chaos, we break up... And so on. It doesn't happen to everyone, but to enough of us that it's really helpful to work the Al-Anon program and get all the tools we can to handle the situation, make good decisions (whether to leave or stay), and follow through on them as appropriate.
I hope you'll find a good meeting and take good care of yourself.
My problem is that I can't leave it alone. I should just leave it here but I'm picking away at it.
You sound by your post to be quite reasonable and quite intelligent and to know the answers to your questions already. AlAnon face to face meetings, even if you only visit for a while, will help clarify what is really going I in your thoughts. It is really quite amazing how quickly we get "sucked in" to the love and support we have always wanted and then don't want to give that up, despite the real things changing everyday. You are certainly not alone with this type of situation and the physical symptoms and the denials and manipulation so you describe seem to me to be clear indicators of alcoholism that has been "left unchecked" for a long, long time. Physical symptoms like ED, diarrhea, inability to stop drinking straight grain alcohol from a bottle and trying to hide it or justify it when caught, and the other behaviors you have described are very serious.
Only he can decided if he wants to stop drinking and he will if he wants to, but never, never for someone else (if he is to become successful). He has to want it more than anything else and he has to be willing to do what is necessary to face the consequences of the years of drinking. "Normal" drinkers simply cannot handle copious amounts of straight grain alcohol. Imagine if you were to drink vodka or gin straigh from the bottle all day and night like that. How would you feel? How would your badly react?
Please consider the meetings. I resisted at first and even took a four year break before going back (after the obligatory six I decided on). I even went back mostly because my now recovering AH kept hinting at it. When I did though, I found a place I belonged and have even sought out a sponsor...for ME!
Alcoholism is progressive and will always get worse...for the alcoholic and for the people they "touch" with their disease. Please consider AlAnon before you make hard and fast decisions, but please remember that abuse of any kind is never acceptable and always gets worse. If we give a child what they want when they scream, they learn to scream louder and longer to get what they want. Alcoholism is very like this only we are generally adults and alcohol and other "rewards" are the point for the manipulative action.
Peace to you and please keep coming back.
I know I should not defend myself and not get sucked in. This is early days and it's been so very unpleasant already - I can't imagine how the future would be. My only difficulty is wondering if I'm wrong but that feeling is rapidly disappearing.
I've also noticed that everything that he says I am, is him. He's not describing me but describing himself and then of course I go in to defend myself and we do a ridiculous, nonsensical, circular dance.
I now know that his ex was telling him to go to AA 10 years ago. He's in trouble with alcohol and I can't help and nor do I want to.
I have been saying 'no' then he brow beat me into agreeing to seeing him on Friday. I've now cancelled that - of course followed by abuse and 'I love you' 'you don't want love - you're too insecure, I've helped you do this that and the other etc etc'. He seems to think that by helping me fix my boiler and doing tiny things around the house to help that I should be eternally grateful. I would do these things for a stranger and expect nothing in return - is that also alcoholic behaviour? I find it so very strange.
The thing is that by all these accusations, arguments, helping, etc., he's keeping you engaged. And that's his ultimate goal. He almost had someone who will put up with his drinking (with a little complaining - but they can handle that - it's the staying that counts, and he almost had someone who stayed for all the insanity! That is having his cake and eating it too for an alcoholic - someone who will put up with the chaos and maltreatment! They feel so satisfied when they can snag someone like that and have their own personal emotional punching bag). So he will pull out all the stops to manipulate you to stay engaged with him.
And the craziness is such that it messes with our minds. I always just found it hard to believe. It wasn't like breaking up with a normal guy - "Oh well, it didn't work, that's sad, he behaved badly, that was awful, now I'm sad but I'm moving on." It's more the feeling of having been scammed by a confidence trick. You just feel blindsided. "I trusted him but he was really WHAT?" And there's a sort of craving to undo it and believe it wasn't as bad as it was.
I've observed that many cases are like my case, where I had so much trouble letting go that I thought, "Something extra must be going on here. Why would I have trouble letting go of someone who treated me badly and who clearly has massive problems?" Part of it, I concluded, was that my family of origin was neglectful and off-and-on like he was. They wanted to love me, they were actually good people, but they just didn't have the emotional wherewithal to do it. So I grew up with that craving for love and that feeling that the best I could get was a kind of half attention. And the craving to make it different this one time. So my attachment to him triggered all of that. Like "At last I will make sure I get the love I want! From this person whose neglect feels so familiar!"
In my case, I found the saying "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing." I had to say it to myself over and over and OVER and over. Some hours I probably said it to myself 60 times an hour. Because the intrusive thoughts kept coming back. Not forever, but for a while. Gradually I got perspective and I saw how sick our relationship had been and I began to thank my lucky stars that I got out when I did. (Which was, however, not nearly soon enough.) I only found peace through not engaging with him. Because all he had to do to keep me engaged was to refuse to see my point of view - and that came naturally to him! So he had me permanently enmeshed - until I shut the door and refused to play any longer.
Take good care of yourself. And get lots of support! It's all so much easier with lots of support. Hugs.
We have choices in the program. We can step off the roller-coaster when we want to. I have blocked my qualifiers before to get myself focused on me/my program. Thinking about what they do, what they don't do, what they will do is absolute crazy-making. Again, that's part of our disease - we give away our power to them, and we focus outside ourselves to keep from looking at our part. It's not intentional - it's a characteristic of living with the disease.
Trying to guess what another person will say or do next is rarely successful. Each alcoholic progresses differently in their disease. While there are some common characteristics, it's part of our illness to expect or assume that they will all xxxxxxxxx. So - for me, in the beginning, each time my mind would wonder to what ifs or what's next? - I would say the serenity prayer, read a daily reader or come here or a meeting.
Watching others who worked great programs, and rarely discussed their alcoholic but rather kept the focus on them truly helped me see what recovery looked like. It's easy to blame the qualifier and/or the disease and/or the (insert what you want) but it's not recovery. It's more denial and denial with this disease is huge in all affected - family and qualifier.
Breathe in and know that there is hope and help. Each time your mind wonders, work to breathe and recenter. Make you and your peace of mind a priority - just for today. That's what I was told early on, and to repeat it each day until it became the new habit. We learn detachment, boundaries and empathy for the sick in recovery. Al-Anon gives us the tools for a peaceful existence no matter what others are/are not doing!!
Keep coming back!
IN Al Anon, we have a couple of sayings that I think apply here,. One is that you don't have to JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend, or Engage. Just say your truth and be done. As noted above, the alcoholic will try to keep you engaged, and may think with that he still has you committed to him/her. The hard part for me is the "be done" part. I will go on and on myself hoping that my A gets the point. Then I realize that I can't beat the point into her, either she gets it or she doesn't, but I have said my peace.
We also say that you don't have to attend every fight you're invited to. It's kinda related to JADE.
You're doing well, keep coming back and sharing!
Kenny
They're probably the same man! Nothing would surprise me :)
Mattie makes so much sense to me too. I think it's also really important to laugh about it too. Find the funny side. Even if it's just what you've fired back in defence by text (although I've stopped texting).
My daughter's older than yours but I still have to set an example to her. It's so important that she does not think this sort of behaviour is acceptable or else she might very well do the same thing.
It's not worth any of the time spent on it, the exhaustion, the anger, the distress the sheer rudeness. Surely, we should all expect to be to spoken to with kindness and understanding? I feel that if someone behaved this way at work he would be fired, instantly. It seems to be acceptable that rudeness, lack of care and honesty from one's spouse or partner is acceptable when it's totally unacceptable in any other relationship or work place. I think lead by example. Treat someone as you wish to be treated and expect it back - no demand it back!
Maybe, I've got this entirely wrong but I can't see that any other way to live equals happiness. YOU are worth so much more. I've read all your posts and commented ( bearing in mind, Im new here and possibly saying the wrong things) but I was so outraged on your behalf.