this might make some of you mad. so i apologize ahead of time.

i keep hearing people blame it on the diease. i can't grasp that concept. i am supposed to be understanding b/c he can't help it? i think it is bull. why am i the one who has to "fix" myself when he is the one with the problem? i feel like he has no accountability b/c he has a disease. i disagree about the disease part. then there's the whole disassociate myself from him. why is that so wrong? i don't want him to think that i think it is ok to drink himself to death. some of you may consider what i am doing is punishment in my mind. but for my own peace of mind, i just can't see myself ever being in his warped life again. my dad is the kind of person that if you talk to him, he thinks everything is ok. he is the kind of person who thinks everything is ok as long as one of his kids (2 other sibs) has contact with him. so therefore i am going to try and be a b****.

although i am trying to get over this guilty feeling i have about abandoning him. i thought about writing him a letter to tell him exactly what he does that makes me mad. i know the "right thing" is to turn it around on myself and not attack him. but why?? so i try to think about how to word it the other way, and the only thing that keeps coming out is about how he is not the man i remember, and telling him here's why.

sorry if you think i am out of line or if maybe you think i am in the wrong website. is there one where you can just complain. b/c lately i feel i'm on the up and down. one moment i feel confident and very mature. then the next minute i am mad and try to think of ways to get back at him. maybe this is just the cycle, and i have to start learning from this. oh well-this kinda got out of control, sorry.

This is why:

Are you happy?

If the answer is "no" then you have the power to change that.

 

No, I don't think this will make any of us mad - we have all been there. We have all felt that anger, that "If he would just stop drinking and start acting like a normal person, there would be no problem!" We have all felt resentment that WE have do all this hard spititual and emotional work, because THEY are messed up. The reason we treat it like a disease is because it IS a disease. When we accept that reality, it is possible for us to continue to love the A, because it takes away the 'doing it on purpose' aspect. However, saying that alcoholism is a disease, is not a "get out of jail free" card for the alcoholic. We still have every right to do whatever is necessary to protect ourselves from their disease, up to and including cutting them out of our lives altogether. If your dad was blind, you would not say, "Oh, it's not his fault, he's got this condition," and let him drive the car. Same with alcoholism. It's not his fault, it's not your fault, it just IS. Nonetheless, there are certain things that must be done to protect those living with an active A, or having contact with one. Alanon is here to teach you some of those things. As for the "Why do I have to get fixed, when he's the one with the problem" aspect of it: Living with alcoholism makes people crazy. We learn ways of coping with the insanity of this life, and some of those ways are not good for us, and get in the way of us living the lives we could live, and having the relationships with the rest of the world that we could have. Many of us, after living so long with lies, have learned to distrust the evidence of our own senses, and our own brains. Many of us have learned to tiptoe around others, in order to get a little peace. Many of us have learned to deny what we see around us, because we can't stand to face the reality of our lives. Many of us have learned to keep our own voices quite, and never to say what we really mean, because we have felt the wrath of the A when we spoke up. Many of us have learned to try to control every detail of the world around us, because so often everything in our lives is out of control. Many of us have become smug and self righteous, because we compare ourselves to the out-of-control alcoholic. If you recognize yourself in any of that, alanon can help you get back to the YOU you are really supposed to be. You can learn to tell the truth, and recognize it when you hear it. You can learn to be brave, and stick up for yourself and for what is right. You can learn to focus on yourself, and leave other people to run their own lives.

I think you’re on the right track!  When we began to feel our own feelings, whether they are happy, sad, disappointed, angry, hurt, lonely, etc. we begin to realize that we have value.  When my life was wrapped around my A in my life, my feelings were less important then his.  I was constantly telling him what he was doing "wrong" or pointing out how he was "making" me feel.  I have changed a lot in two years.  I can now express my feelings without blaming him.  I was sicker then I ever acknowledged.  I think one of your greatest accomplishments is recognizing that you need space, that's not being mean, but you also must be gentle with yourself.  We tend to believe what we tell ourselves, so when we say we are mean or being a b**** then we begin to believe that.  You are a valuable person, who deserves to be treated that way, especially by yourself.  Hang in there.

Hugs Mary

 

All good answers to your post, and it really IS a matter of perspective, in my opinion...

Why do you have to change you, when it is HIS problem?  Well, two things - 1. you can't change him;  and  2. His disease has adversely effected you.  It is not a blame situation or a contest of wills - you hopefully will want to change you, because YOU are hurting right now, and need to do some things differently. 

As for the question of accepting whether or not it is a disease....  I used to have problems with that as well.... When my wife was active, and out drinking and carousing with her multiple groups of friends, getting blitzed 4+ nights per week, with me home with our small children - you're darned right I had a tough time accepting that it was a "disease".  It appeared to me that she was making a choice, of booze over her family, and that felt unbelievably bad....  She soon progressed, however, to the point where she could no longer drink publicly, and started drinking ONLY in the home.  Well, when you see a grown woman (or man) polish off a fifth of vodka by 9am, and lying there passed out on the bed - I found it easier to accept the 'disease concept', in that nobody would wish that upon themselves...

The thing I still have trouble with, is when people compare alcoholism to other diseases, such as cancer or diabetes.  The tricky thing about this disease of alcoholism, is that there IS an element of "choice" involved.... As in, the addicts DO have an option of sobriety, as difficult as it may seem...  I get my britches up, when I hear people rationalize their "unequivocal love" for their A's, by comparing their disease to cancer or diabetes, and asking the open question of "would I love my husband/wife any less if they had one of those diseases?".  I don't think it is a relevant comparison, and we would also not expect a spouse with diabetes, to conciously choose not to take their insulin, and to continue to pick up the pieces after them, time and time again.

All good questions here, and ones that almost all of us have struggled with....

 

Tom

 

Flint, I couldn't agree with you more hence my difficulty accepting that his "disease" should be brought down on me to accept because he is "ill." Nope, nope, nope, that's not the way it is. To tell me I must accept my A, drinking and all, is like telling me to go ahead and let the rattlesnake bite me, because he is, after all, a rattlesnake, and cannot change that. So I must accept the snake behavior while at the same time hoping the antivenom will work. Rather than sit tight and allow my A to live his life to my disadvantage, I'd sooner toss him out and go on with the peaceful happiness I knew before he entered my door. I don't love anyone enough to allow them to be mentally or physically abusive while I do nothing but attempt to understand this "disease." Today I had a tv program on...you all know the one...and the women guests were being abused and controlled in different ways by their spouses. "Why don't you leave?" was the hosts question, to which 100% of them answered, "Because I love him." Come on..... ((((((((((((((flintfeet))))))))))))))))))))) I will tell you this: Trying to "get back" at him is a useless endeavour. Feeling guilt is counterproductive. Deciding what you want out of life, keeping in mind your life can end at any moment, is what's important. *Newsflash* He KNOWS what he does to make you angry. With great caring and concern, Diva

If you feel you know in your own heart what is the right thing to do and you still choose not to do it, than only YOU will suffer those consequences.  (mostly inner guilt and exactly what you are dealing with now.....conflict within yourself and a lack of peace)

You can complain here all you want.  However that won't change the way you feel, your serenity level, your relationship with your dad, his drinking or your reaction to it.  It won't change a single thing....but go ahead and complain away.  Sometimes we just need to get stuff off our chest.  Just keep in mind: nothing changes if nothing changes.  You'll continue to feel the way you do right now. 

If you feel that the only way to regain peace and make your life more manageable is to dissasociate from your dad, than do it.  Just don't expect that to make him stop drinking.  Also don't expect your siblings to follow your lead.  You have no control over anyone other than yourself.  Don't expect writing him a letter telling him your feelings to change anything in him.  It won't.  Do what you feel you need to do for YOU without having any expectations regarding the outcomes of your decisions to have any affect on anyone other than yourself.  We are powerless over addiction.  We are powerless over others in general.  The sooner we accept that, the sooner we can begin to heal.

Noone will be mad at you for the way you feel.  I have felt the exact same way in the past.  Thank God this program taught me how to change certain things about myself so I didn't have to continue feeling that way every day of my life.  It sucked.

i dont see ANYthing wrong with telling someone     WHAT they did......HOW they hurt me.....WHAT amend i would WANT for them to do........

THAN i go with NO **expectations** of their  "owing it or making amends"  becuz if they are NOT in recovery?? it aint gonna happen......sooo  i take care of me...i speak my mind, than drop it...."live and let live"   if my 2 brothers want to  drink/drug themselves to death???  i   didnt' CAUSE it........canot CONTROL it.........damned sure am not going to CURE it.......

i love them both,  but i accept them as alkies, and i have NO **expectations** of them being dependable,   nothing but 2 drunks.....thats it...i take care of me...set boundaries on them as needed and i go my way.....

what i cannot change???  i LET IT GO!!!!  that doesnt mean i don't say my "piece" becuz i do....than i  LET IT GO!!!!!  and i dont' enable them to victimize me anymore......please take what works and leave the rest.......  BTW...U were NOT out of line....i can relate very much with the  "disease" thingy.....they have to    1--pour the drink.....2--lift the glass....3---swallow.........that takes MORE time than it takes  ME  to DIAL MY SPONSER........it is a CHOICE!! (getting drunk)....they KNOW what it does...and they still do it.....i used to abuse alcohol to numb my pain....now?? i let the PROGRAM help me work THROUGH the pain so i am DONE with it.....so?? end result??  i don't abuse alcohol anymore....dont WANT to........

life is a CHOICE.....so its ok for U to  B mad......good share......rosie

I am an A and the reason why we use the term disease is because once an alcoholic takes a drink he cannot control the outcome however there is more than just taking a drink its about how warped our vision of 'self' has become because of living in the sick dance of denial we partake in the world of alcoholism. Its a disease because there is evidence that we react differently to alcohol than 'normal drinkers'.....we just cannot stop or control our intake of the stuff. the best way to discribe the effect and the minds obsession is to try and eat just one and i mean one potato chip. or just one cookie or just one of anything you love and this is what it is like for the most part when we take a drink or try to have one (remembering that it impares you ability to think) then the second one is not really thought about with a clear head so its off to the races. thats why we cannot have just one just some thoughts....... try the chip thing so you can understand a little more what goes on in our heads the rationalizations and the obsession thing.

Jersey1 - I really appreciate your perspective and I thank you for sharing.  I think it demonstrates a lot of courage.  I look forward to hearing more from you.  I think your insight is very much needed here.

ZuZu

Haven't had time to read all responses but (to me) great advice seems to be coming in. For me, the most effective thing I have done with my A loved ones has been to carefully seperate the person from the disease and then this frees me to seperate the unacceptable behaviour from the good stuff (and makes compassion must easier to achieve). In my mind compassion rather than blaming the A for things they can't control allows them the space to get free of the guilt they have about their unacceptable behaviour and it begins to get safe enough for them to actually reflect on their stuff realistically. This can have amazing ramifications. Good luck 

Gogogirl, I quote from your post... "In my mind compassion rather than blaming the A for things they can't control allows them the space to get free of the guilt they have about their unacceptable behaviour..." Please do not misunderstand. I respect you and your right to your opinion, but I cannot grasp this thinking. I believe that they (alcoholics) CAN control it, and perhaps if they were allowed to shoulder the guilt as a result of their bad behavior, they could begin to understand what they must do for themselves, get control. If I, as a non-addictive person, commit an unacceptable act, I deserve the guilt associated with it, and the punishment which follows. Why, then, is an A to be relieved of guilt and blame? Is it because he/ she has a "disease?" Having a disease does not give one carte blanche to ruin the lives of others. Sorry. I just don't get it. With sincere respect and caring, Diva

i keep hearing people blame it on the diease. i can't grasp that concept. i am supposed to be understanding b/c he can't help it? i think it is bull. People who are A have definant symptoms also knows as behaviors. No different than a spider catching and eating a bug. A's use becuz it is their nature. Ths is what makes it vital for an A to design their own progam of recovery to be able to cont. to be sober and healthy. I don't know if understanding is the right word. For me it is accepting that an A is an A. Accepting them for who and what they are. Now that does not mean I can live with him/her or associate with him/her. But I owe them the respect that it is their disease and they have to live with it in their own way. why am i the one who has to "fix" myself when he is the one with the problem? I never took alanon as fixing myself. I take it as growth. I choose to be in alanon for me and also becuz I love him and other people who are A's and choose to educate myself as to the disease. Ignorance is something I don't do well with. I feel the more ignorant the more critical and closed minded one is. i feel like he has no accountability b/c he has a disease. i disagree about the disease part. Accountability,meaning consequenses? The A is sick all the time. They feel guilt that we cannot imagine. They lose jobs, loved ones, licenses, kill people dui ing. They have consequences big time. As far as disagreeing as to the disease part, that is like disagreeing one and one eguals two. It is a disease. then there's the whole disassociate myself from him. I am thinking you may mean "detaching?" Detaching for me is loving the man but hating the disease. I see my A as terribly tortured. I am not surprised when he gets dui's, loses jobs, gets hurt, drinks after a month of sobriety. He has alcoholism. Relapse, overwhelming guilt, rehab, detox, sobriety back to relapse are all part of the disease. But he is still a human being that I love very much. No different to me than my mom who I wanted die from cancer. All I could do was love her. Accept her as is. why is that so wrong? i don't want him to think that i think it is ok to drink himself to death. Believe me he knows it is not ok. But it is how it is. WE have no control over it anyway. i would rather love them, look for the good than be bitter and cruel to them. \some of you may consider what i am doing is punishment in my mind. but for my own peace of mind, i just can't see myself ever being in his warped life again. my dad is the kind of person that if you talk to him, he thinks everything is ok. he is the kind of person who thinks everything is ok as long as one of his kids (2 other sibs) has contact with him. so therefore i am going to try and be a b****. although i am trying to get over this guilty feeling i have about abandoning him. i thought about writing him a letter to tell him exactly what he does that makes me mad. i know the "right thing" is to turn it around on myself and not attack him. but why?? so i try to think about how to word it the other way, and the only thing that keeps coming out is about how he is not the man i remember, and telling him here's why. sorry if you think i am out of line or if maybe you think i am in the wrong website. is there one where you can just complain. b/c lately i feel i'm on the up and down. one moment i feel confident and very mature. then the next minute i am mad and try to think of ways to get back at him. maybe this is just the cycle, and i have to start learning from this. oh well-this kinda got out of control, sorry. I am so glad you wrote how you feel!! To me I see progress in your words. You are questioning some very important issues. Now since we cannot change them, then what would make a person want to abandone someone they love and concentrate on the negative? My father is dieing of emphusema right now. I start to be bitter then quickly change. It makes me feel better about me, when I think of how he was always gentle with me. Never made me cry, Would listen when I talked, i don't think he ever told me no. He helped me financially when I was a widow. I could think of a million things he did and did not do that I used to allow to tear me apart. What it comes down to for me is I know I feel better when I look for good in everything. Also it makes me feel better to accept things, does not mean I agree, it is not my job to judge anyone. I don't want to go thru life with a frown like i see so many people. I know life is frigging hard and painful. just that i have chosen to accept everyone with their own good and bad. I can't change them anyway. Hope this isn't too much. love,debilyn

thanks for all the replies. i feel like i am getting some much needed advice here. i never really talk to anyone about the situation (not even my hubbie). i felt myself wanting to cry reading some of your responses. i know that i probably need a good cry, but then i feel like i am being sorry for myself. maybe i have that right or maybe not. either way, it feels good to just let it out, even though i can't let myself get hysterical over the problem.

thanks for listening---flint

Gogogirl again,

In response to what you have said Diva I feel I need to clarify for you what I mean, and in case I have misled any others too. I am not suggesting that we accept unacceptable behaviour but just not to react to it. And I'm not suggesting for a second that this is easy. But it has been such a gem for me, if I get this bit right, it has had amazing results on many occasions. Eventually my closest A emerged from the alien the disease was making of him back into his "well" self. An active A can't really ever escape their gruelling guilt, to my thinking, but I'm trying to emphasise it seems to be crucial how you respond to their unacceptable behaviour. I'm suggesting that by responding with as much calmness and self-empowering dignity as possible - while not making the slightest concession to their unacceptable stuff, this often appears to have a better impact than 'buying in' to this behaviour which appears to trigger their guilt further at the time and seems to overwhelm them, so that they then project this guilt more powerfully back at us.  This is the part that they appear to have no control over, this guilt seems to be so painful that they simply must get rid of it in this way. It can be a bit like playing a harp to a madman sometimes I admit, but for me its empowering to detach from their theatrics and projections (because I see this as part of their disease and therefore don't have to attach a moral judgement to it as if I was judging an action of a well person). It gets easier and easier to do when you see the positive impact it so often has. I'm at pains now to be clear, I do not mean enabling or allowing them to get away with anything!!! So this is what I meant about providing a space from their guilt, so to speak, through calm and dignified responses that empower us and demonstrate to them appropriate behaviour. It seems to defuse and take away the fuel that their theatrics runs on. It was so enlightening to me, as my closest A reemerged in recovery, to learn how much he hated the beast he was acting out as, how embarrassed and shamed it constantly made him, and he tells me my responses helped to set him free. I hope this a little clearer and that it can be helpful.