After many years in both AA and Al-Anon I can say that many marriages or relationships don't survive. Why? Because to start with... neither program is a professional marriage or relationship counseling service. Many times people get sober and realize that they don't like or love their spouse any more than they did as a drunk, (maybe even less) and many times the alcoholic gets sober, and their spouse don't like or love them any more than before because in the absence of several years of sobriety based in "recovery", the alcoholic is still very absorbed in themselves and can't see past their own nose. The problems in a marriage or relationship, usually starts and escalates before either the alcoholic or al-anon entered the rooms of recovery. However, some suspect that just because sobriety comes into play, or the other gets involved in Al-Anon that the marital problems will instantaneously get resolved as a by product of it. Instead, what happens is the alcoholic is finally doing all they can to make it through a day without a drink, and staying sober "this time" by surrounding and embedding themselves in the program. Truly being committed to it, and doing what millions of others have done is like stepping onto another planet for the alcoholic. For the untreated Al-Anon, their life was and is still so consumed with the alcoholic that they don't even show up to try to live their own life. For them this would be like stepping onto a another planet as well. Instead they try to cling to the alcoholic as they did before sobriety, in so many unhealthy ways and for so many unhealthy reasons that the alcoholic does appear to desert the relationship on several levels because they realize can not get well staying in a home full of sickness and untreated "dis-ease".
One of the greatest communalities a couple can have is the 12 steps and the principles by which they are both trying to live their individual lives. Couple that with the 12 Traditions and the spiritual principles that bring us to a place of looking at the common good of the whole in regards to our relationships with others and this place called Earth becomes a pleasant planet to live on again. Maybe better than ever before.
A marriage is about sharing our lives together. In order to do that, both people in it need to have a life of their own to share with the other. They are sharing "their" lives, not his or hers, but theirs. (Plural)
In order to do that we have to have one of our own or get one of our own. Then we have something to truly share with each other.
Lastly, I note that the person who posted this thread to begin with has never posted before or since this one. Not even acknowledging the time and support so many of us has provided here for them. It appears they are feeling very neglected emotionally, possibly physically, and becoming very resentful. They don't appear to know what the hell to do with themselves now. I hope that their addiction to their drug...the alcoholic, will make them sick enough that they will join Al-Anon and find a new way of life for themselves, just as alcoholism made the alcoholic so sick and tired that they jump into the rooms of AA as though their lives or at least the quality of it absolutely depended on it. Because it does.
Complaining about how someone else was living their lives, never made mine any better at all. Looking at how I was living my own life did.
John
John said
Aug 19, 2013
I am not one to blow smoke up any one's ass. If they want things in their life to get better, it has to start with them getting better.
I recognize the pain, the anger ... I acknowledge the feelings... I have experienced them all, in both early recovery and later recovery.
I send a true message of hope to this person... my hope for them;
"It appears they are feeling very neglected emotionally, possibly physically, and becoming very resentful. They don't appear to know what the hell to do with themselves now. I hope that their addiction to their drug...the alcoholic, will make them sick enough that they will join Al-Anon and find a new way of life for themselves, just as alcoholism made the alcoholic so sick and tired that they jump into the rooms of AA as though their lives or at least the quality of it absolutely depended on it. Because it does.
Complaining about how someone else was living their lives, never made mine any better at all. Looking at how I was living my own life did."
Being hurt, in pain, confused, or full of anger does not does not minimize or negate this truth. Just as the alcoholic doesn't need to get the wife back, get the job back, or anything else on the outside to change in order to get well on the inside, the untreated Al-Anon doesn't need to put external conditions on their recovery either. We can and do get well, regardless of whether the alcoholic recovers or not. Joins AA or doesn't.
And to be a bit more honest I truly suspect that this poster's stating that AA is responsible for the condition of their marriage, and calling the life line that AA is providing his wife a "cult" is doing more to damage the legitimate ends of that marriage than AA ever would. What a great show of support for his wife, who is trying to do the hardest thing she has probably ever done in her life... better herself.
Again, I simply hope and pray that this person finds their way to Al-Anon, and while they are hugged and loved through this painful time, they are not lied to or have smoke blown up their ass by being allowed to continue this path of not taking any responsibility for their own life, or quality of it. Including that of their marriage to an alcoholic. In or out of AA.
John
-- Edited by John on Monday 19th of August 2013 12:08:57 PM
hisimage said
Aug 19, 2013
Being new to all of this, and still having an AH- I have no idea how this person feels when relating to a R spouse. :D
I think, and it's only my opinion, that often the enabler/co can feel left behind and angry because he/she has been putting up with the A"s miserable junk for years. They have begged, pleaded, ignored, threatened, and repeated all of those for years. Where is the medal? after all, the enabler is the one who is still standing beside the A.
Now== as stated, the A is in the mix with others. Laughing (relating to) and talking about their past, because I think laughter helps stay sane and sober. So, yes there will be resentment. Just like the A will blame anyone they can for their behavior.
I feel terrible for the person who is not happy because of the recovery. I'm also quite happy to know that I'm not crazy because I've always felt my AH is selfish no matter what. I've heard people say that the alcohol makes the person selfish. I think it is the other way around.
Just my opinion.
Be well,
-- Edited by hisimage on Monday 19th of August 2013 01:53:02 PM
hotrod said
Aug 19, 2013
I agree with John's original posting. After reading all the comments here as well as on the original post, I can see so clearly why alanon meetings close with the statement: The opinions expressed are strictly those of the person who states them Take what you like and leave the rest " I always thought "leave the rest" meant do not argue, defend, challenge etc.
Let there be no gossip or criticism of one another is also a powerful tool that promotes harmony and trust. It grants each person the respect to speak their mind without judgment or criticism and lastly I truly appreciate the no cross talk requirement
I love that the Board permits exchange of ideas based on alanon philosophy and when we strive to place principles above personalities I feel it works best
-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 19th of August 2013 10:25:25 PM
neshema2 said
Aug 19, 2013
Dear John, that was SO "spot on"....I couldn't agree w/you more...When I got into alanon, I discovered many "friends" and "family members" that were just NOT a blessing to me....saw it through my recovering eyes, and not my codependent, sick eyes....yea, I made big time changes b/c alanon was teaching me how to live healthier, think better, respond rather than react (still slip on this one , too) but the bottom line is, as I felt better about me (and still working on that one) I began to want better people, circumstances, situations ect, in my life....My pain threshold went waaay down....and my value for me, even tho I struggle w/self love, I do see progress....Becuz I do, most times, treat me better...I work on me...focus on me...detach from others working or not working their program.....I am changing...changing for the better....so my associations are changing for the better....Like Jerry said, I gotta first love me b4 I can love others in a healthy way (paraphrasing Jerry but I got his message and I took it to heart).....Thanks, John......again, you are spot on
rehprof said
Aug 19, 2013
I agree to a point, John.
At the same time, it is so important to recognize the pain and anger people come to the fellowship of ALANON with. When we react in a paternalistic way, we turn people off (or tick them off) and I believe we have to support people where they are...and once trust is established, then we can challenge self-defeating behaviors by sharing our own experiences.
We all have to start somewhere, and let's be supportive, even when people are at the beginning..and struggling mightily. There have been times when I have been really ticked off, and somehow, I get the impression people want to say..."there, there dear, when you are more enlightened, you won't be angry anymore" -- sorry, I believe that is a top-down judgment, and I don't think it's helpful. Not saying that is what you are suggesting with your post, John, but I think people who have been in the fellowship a long time can scare newbies off...unintentionally.
I do hope Jack returns...I've been in that angry place...and it's heart-wrenching.
Respectfully,
RP
PP said
Aug 19, 2013
I see all sides. I do have to remind myself often to "meet people where they are". I read something this morning that I took to mean that the first step in healing for anyone is to have someone be with them in their suffering (and this is tricky if they want to stay in their suffering), then they can gently be nudged to a higher place. I get all impatient sometimes and think if I just say the right thing to them, they will be moved....it rarely works, unless, I first can be with them in their suffering. If I can't, it is best for me to be quiet. We are all learning, right? Progress not perfection...and, as I say this so much, "I needed to hear this"
grateful2be said
Aug 19, 2013
I do think it is more helpful to hear somebody out, too. As both the spouse, mother, sister, granddaughter of As - there is a lot that comes at us from the disease. If there is no place to safely say what is on our minds, where do we find help? I'm not for allowing somebody to just rant on and on against us, but to at least give them the floor for awhile won't hurt us as a group? Anger is often the tool that takes us for the help that we need. It takes time for us as much as it does the A to heal and to absorb the program - sometimes longer.
PP said
Aug 19, 2013
I do like that you don't blow smoke up one's ass....it is refreshing, John.
neshema2 said
Aug 19, 2013
I think the thing that made me less compassionate and a bit defensive was calling MY life saving group a "Cult"...Yea, I know the guy as upset, feeling abandoned, and yes, I do see his point....I think the calling us a cult sorta threw me off...AND....I WISH...I WISH my AH #2 had gotten into AA....oh yea, it would hurt at first, his putting me 2nd to his program, but ya know??? I was a navy wife...I could have been "ok" probably b/c I was used to taking care of me, even tho I was so codependent and non recovery.....how many alanoners PRAY every day for their spouse to get into program or their dad, or their mom, and they never do and they DIE.....
Yes, I can empathize with his confusion, and angst, but I took exception to alanon being called a Cult...name calling never set well w/me....insults and name calling, I lived with, and to "label" something to me, I did not like....
OK...I am OFF to exercise on trampolene....its a nice sunny day...gonna slather on my sunscreen and blast my tunes and give it a good workout........just had to give my take on this...please use what works and leave the rest...
John said
Aug 19, 2013
I don't think he was referring to Al-Anon with the word "cult". Re-read his post.. he is pointing his finger at AA.
John
neshema2 said
Aug 19, 2013
John wrote:
I don't think he was referring to Al-Anon with the word "cult". Re-read his post.. he is pointing his finger at AA.
John
Ok...my mistake...I will say a corrected reply......AA is not a cult either....
grateful2be said
Aug 19, 2013
John: I can understand what you are saying and I appreciate where you're coming from on this. I do think, however, that for someone's first encounter with us that truth spoken (which it was) in gentleness might at least help somebody enter the door more quickly than the truth being yelled at them. I don't think anyone "blew smoke up his ass," as much as some just approached his anger and frustration in a stand down position rather than a hand to hand position. We don't know what this guy has been through and although his wife is trying to save her life maybe he is trying to save his, too? He just doesn't know how?
I also noted he didn't come back to post, but nothing says he isn't reading our posts as a guest? We want them all to get help, John. We know what a mess we all were when we first arrived at Al Anon. We're already blaming ourselves for everything that has happened. Then, if our loved one gets sober, we have no clue it isn't going to have a happy ending to it at first and are shattered. We need help picking up the pieces and sometimes that help needs to begin with feeling heard.
I'm not a mind-reader. I don't know what went through this guy's mind when he first posted or what he thought if he read any responses. People become self-centered in order to survive sometimes. I guess I don't have the heart to yell the truth at somebody when I don't know them or know the whole picture.
And I also don't know that yelling the truth at somebody isn't helpful, too? I just don't know. As far as his marriage and treatment of his wife - well - who knows that his venting with us didn't help derail some of it that might come at her? Again, I just don't know.
Yet, in situations like this, I think Paula's consistent reminder - "To thine own self be true," - is probably the best policy for each of us to follow when receiving someone at our board? Maybe everything that is said is just what he and others like him need at the time? Again, who knows? I'm just glad we have a lot of folks at this board who care about people in pain like him, his wife and his family. I'm glad we're having this discussion and that you posted this thread, John. Thank you.
Cathyinaz said
Aug 19, 2013
In my instance I can truly understand where he's coming from. If He's like me so so consumed in the A's life trying fix it, it's kind of like a great loss when it's not there anymore. Somebody else took over. I can also only imagine what it would be like if I didn't have my own program. I know my son will come back someday but for now he can do whatever is needed to get well and become a productive and loving man he was before alcohol. He didn't get there overnight and he won't get well overnight. I can also except him for whatever he becomes because I have my HP that will guide my life to happiness.
Tasha said
Aug 19, 2013
I came here to Alanon to vent on this board a few weeks back. I wasn't allowed to just simply vent. I was told this that and the other thing about why my sick person was doing what he was doing and what I was suppose to do about it. I'm no newbie to the program. I know what I'm suppose to do! For one day - one hour - I was in so much pain I didn't want to do it. I just wanted to vent - be heard - be listened to - be comforted - be understood by other people who have been in great amounts of pain. I just wanted to feel loved and accepted where. I. was. at.
That didn't happen and I got pissed and deleted my account.
That was a dumb childish thing to do - and I apologized for it and came back as the regular old me who's not going to piss and moan and feel sorry for myself - but rather - look to see where I can be of service to others, get outside of myself, and remember why I am here.
But for that moment in time - after just having found out my 4 yr old daughter was being molested by my babysitter, and my alanon was in a very sick place - I needed the support of people who could relate to dealing with tragedy with an emotionally unavailable person. This place was the first place I thought of. I thought I would be safe. I thought I could pour some of it out and off my chest here... and be loved through it. It was important that there was a place in the world to be able to do it.
What I quickly learned is... this IS NOT the place. I went to a live meeting as soon as I could. I had the floor - no one said a word back to me... I just got to vent - I needed that. I'm not afraid to go after what I need anymore, and I'm not ever going to give up anymore. That IS because of this place. Almost everything I've learned in this program has been from this board - but it is a DISCUSSION board... you're going to get feedback... and for me - in that case - the live meeting was the better choice. Live and learn. To me - this place is amazing. I couldn't imagine recovery without being able to ask questions, and hear people's advice and experience. I'm so grateful for YOU John, for giving us a place to practice living our recovery with people from all over the world. Most of my alanon meetings around here are nothing but pissing and moaning. If it wasn't for this board, I would have given up even trying to find healthy solution based people - but I SAW THEM HERE. I knew it existed - and I kept searching and searching for a meeting that I felt at home with because of all of you folks here.
maryjane said
Aug 19, 2013
I know exactly where he is coming from. When I got married in 1971, it was to a person who did not drink. We were in college and had goals. I came from a background of zero alcohol. His background was Irish Catholic (I think that explains it all). The person he was in year 2000 when he finally quit drinking was not the person he was when I married him. He changed. The whiskey changed his brain. It also changed me. Incrementally, I was changed.
By the time he stopped drinking I felt very unsupported. And yet, there he was in AA and demanding that I support him. And all the websites were telling me that I was a horrible person if I didn't support him. I'm sorry that alcoholics have it so bad. I'm sorry that they are fighting for their lives. I'm sorry that they can't support their families a bit better. I'm sorry that it is such a horrid, awful mess. But the spouse doesn't deserve having someone yelling at them for not being supportive enough. They have been supportive all along. Yes, they have things to work on and a gentle program of AlAnon will help that along.
I was called a b*t*h every day for many years. Those were the years that I was raising 4 daughters, 5 foster teenage daughters, getting my college degree, supporting my alcoholic husband so he could drink himself into a stuper every evening and weekend, and trying to hide it all from family, friends and neighbors. By the time he decided that his ego was hurting because of a DUI, I really didn't care any more. I was angry I was so unsupported.
But at some point someone has to be the adult, and I realized it had to be me. AlAnon was a huge support. It taught me detachment.....and a whole lot more. And I'm still working on me. I am getting happy again and that is my goal.
I did not get married with the intention of living with an alcoholic. If I had known I would never have signed up for it. I had declined dates from guys who drank too much. It took about 10 years into the marriage before I could put my finger on what was wrong. It was the booze.
Bettina said
Aug 19, 2013
I agree with John, the poster came in attacking.
Truth should always be told...we cannot help people if we enable them. Life goes by at a quick pace.
Do you want to be suffering all your life or do you want progress.
If you pick up your ODAT book and really read it and listen to what it is saying , it never enables.
This is what we must learn to speak the truth in a compassionate way, always balanced. Compassion does not enable.
neshema2 said
Aug 19, 2013
Well, I must say after reading these posts, I am humbled.....This guy did come here to vent...He did feel abandoned, kicked to the curb and I wasn't rude to him, but I did not show him the compassion that I would have wanted if I felt lost, forsaken, world turned upside down
and to Jack if you are listening, I am sorry I didn't just listen to you and just say "hang in there, this is new to her and she will come back, healthier, but right now she is clinging to the AA with her fingertips trying to save her life"
I was not very compassionate to this poor guy and I feel badly, but I have, on this thread, made my amend and so now I will move on from it a smarter, more compassionate person....I got kinda triggered at the reference to this program (AA) being a cult and I kinda went with it......
I take responsibility for the not so compassionate stuff I said and my amend is to think b4 I open my big mouth , or in this case, get on the key board.....STOP and THINK....if I can't offer anything loving and kind and helpful??? then I will keep my mouth shut.....
I do hope this guy comes back....I am not sorry about urging him to work his program and to go to meets and to work the steps, THAT I do not take back...None of any A's in my life went to AA, and are still not, so I don't even know what it is like to be closely related to a newbie AA first in recovery......I guess it is as hard if not harder on them then it is us alanoners and codies who are trying to fix our minds....the AA's are doing that AND fighting to save their lives.....so yea, road to get sober and stay sober has to be a hard thing......
Anyway, I just wanted to add this........Peace everyone....
grateful2be said
Aug 19, 2013
Well, Bettina, although I agree with you, I do also think he was told the truth. I think it is just in what way we tell the truth that we all don't agree and maybe that's exactly the way we need to be? There are times that I read things on this board that get my red flags going and generally won't respond there because I just don't know the person well enough and wait for others to respond. And I don't think we all need to be the same in this program in order to get the message through us to another human being. We all have different styles of delivery, but I think we were all saying the same thing to this person - just some softer than others. In the end, I think everybody did their part as well as they could do it for who they are. Whether or not he heard the message - go to Al-Anon - I guess depends on him?
neshema2 said
Aug 19, 2013
I remember when I first got into recovery....I was a BALL of anger...I mean some of my old posts were horrible...vent a ramas.......I was treated w/compassion, allowed to vent, yes, told the truth, but with compassion, I was "cut a lot of slack" I know I was no "picnic" to share recovery with
But the love and compassion, not enabling me but letting me vent and work stuff out w/a lot of support and ESH...I got through it
All of us have/had good points on this thread.......I just hope this guy comes back and gets into alanon.....However, I am powerless...I have my hands full trying to undo the damage I did to me by going AWOL for so long....Its almost like I am starting over, but not quite....
I am not gonna pass judgement on someone when I have so much stuff of my own thats wrong w/me......In fact...I loved the "talk sessions" i had w/my AA recovery mate and also, today I talked w/another "alanon pal".....Gonna do like Kathleen and do the phone/email/text thingy more...I like it...
I want to be mindful of step 12 and do my step 12, however I wont' stay where I am not "fed"......If I don't feel like its a give and take proposition, or I feel like i can't give and receive necessary ESH with which to share in the healing , I just pack up my toys and move on.....
I hope this guy comes back....I read a lot of pain in his post...pain..confusion...anger...fear......stuff I felt when I was new.....yea, he looked attacking....maybe this was the only place he felt like he could "blow up" and maybe feel safe????
JUST saying....dinner is almost ready.....TTYL
John said
Aug 19, 2013
I never thought of myself as "yelling" at any one as was implied by one of the post. Yes, I could try to butter up the truth, to make it more gentle going down, but in my experience, if what is said, doesn't have a certain level impact it won't reach the angry, scared, broken spirit I am trying to reach. If a person reads my post and goes away mad.. they are going away mad, because they are going away thinking about it. And of course there is the old phrase..."the truth will set you free, after it pisses you the hell off!" LOL
John
RoseODAT said
Aug 19, 2013
Al-anon helps us realize what we can handle in can't.
In my home group half of us are separated and the other half divorce......We are very supportive of each other no matter what and being in either situations are both very brave things to do. The only time I will probably speak up is if is death seems probable as one of my sponsor's ex Al-Anon sponsees was actually killed by her very possessive AH :( It was local on the news and all and somehow the man is still a fugitive unfortunately.
grateful2be said
Aug 20, 2013
John: Except when you're going through really rough times, I have to say you have a way with words that for me always brings forth laughter. I couldn't even think to string words together the way that you do. Thanks for a good share and a good topic for discussion.
Bettina said
Aug 20, 2013
I agree Hotrod, we have to watch the cross talking and the analyzing of anyone's response.
This is not facebook. That is why we have private messaging, if you like the way somebody responded to a poster we can always send them a private message.
neshema2 said
Aug 20, 2013
hotrod wrote:
: The opinions expressed are strictly those of the person who states them Take what you like and leave the rest " I always thought "leave the rest" meant do not argue, defend, challenge etc.
Let there be no gossip or criticism of one another is also a powerful tool that promotes harmony and trust. It grants each person the respect to speak their mind without judgment or criticism and lastly I truly appreciate the no cross talk requirement
I love that the Board permits exchange of ideas based on alanon philosophy and when we strive to place principles above personalities I feel it works best
Thanks Betty....I can see why these are a part of alanon/12 steps .......I know for me, I HAVE to feel safe in posting or starting a thread....Safety is a big issue with me.....Thanks for this reminder....with such a mixture of people with varying backgrounds and experiences, I agree the only way it (12 steps recovery programs) CAN work is "principles above personalities".......
grateful2be said
Aug 20, 2013
We're also not in a meeting and I'm not sure the crosstalk rule applies? We've had discussions on this and on other things at the board. My understanding is that the board is meant for what is detailed at the top of this board. There's nothing there about crosstalk, etc. I'm confused especially when I see on the boards frequently what is being said shouldn't be on the boards? We've also had discussions about crosstalk a few months ago and it was stated that crosstalk didn't apply to the board. Maybe I missed a discussion where it is now a guide for the boards?
Debilyn said
Aug 20, 2013
Paula I for one too am glad John is not trying to blow smoke up someones bum! lol lol I was picturing it in my head when I read it! lol lol
I did not bother responding to Jack as I knew he would not read any of it. Many come here spit it out and never come back.I just felt he was one of them.
BUT it was good for everyone to share and see how each other felt about his bs
I knew he was ignorant when he said addiction was not a disease. Not worth my energy, there are people I care about on here I want to give to.
After many years in both AA and Al-Anon I can say that many marriages or relationships don't survive. Why? Because to start with... neither program is a professional marriage or relationship counseling service. Many times people get sober and realize that they don't like or love their spouse any more than they did as a drunk, (maybe even less) and many times the alcoholic gets sober, and their spouse don't like or love them any more than before because in the absence of several years of sobriety based in "recovery", the alcoholic is still very absorbed in themselves and can't see past their own nose. The problems in a marriage or relationship, usually starts and escalates before either the alcoholic or al-anon entered the rooms of recovery. However, some suspect that just because sobriety comes into play, or the other gets involved in Al-Anon that the marital problems will instantaneously get resolved as a by product of it. Instead, what happens is the alcoholic is finally doing all they can to make it through a day without a drink, and staying sober "this time" by surrounding and embedding themselves in the program. Truly being committed to it, and doing what millions of others have done is like stepping onto another planet for the alcoholic. For the untreated Al-Anon, their life was and is still so consumed with the alcoholic that they don't even show up to try to live their own life. For them this would be like stepping onto a another planet as well. Instead they try to cling to the alcoholic as they did before sobriety, in so many unhealthy ways and for so many unhealthy reasons that the alcoholic does appear to desert the relationship on several levels because they realize can not get well staying in a home full of sickness and untreated "dis-ease".
One of the greatest communalities a couple can have is the 12 steps and the principles by which they are both trying to live their individual lives. Couple that with the 12 Traditions and the spiritual principles that bring us to a place of looking at the common good of the whole in regards to our relationships with others and this place called Earth becomes a pleasant planet to live on again. Maybe better than ever before.
A marriage is about sharing our lives together. In order to do that, both people in it need to have a life of their own to share with the other. They are sharing "their" lives, not his or hers, but theirs. (Plural)
In order to do that we have to have one of our own or get one of our own. Then we have something to truly share with each other.
Lastly, I note that the person who posted this thread to begin with has never posted before or since this one. Not even acknowledging the time and support so many of us has provided here for them. It appears they are feeling very neglected emotionally, possibly physically, and becoming very resentful. They don't appear to know what the hell to do with themselves now. I hope that their addiction to their drug...the alcoholic, will make them sick enough that they will join Al-Anon and find a new way of life for themselves, just as alcoholism made the alcoholic so sick and tired that they jump into the rooms of AA as though their lives or at least the quality of it absolutely depended on it. Because it does.
Complaining about how someone else was living their lives, never made mine any better at all. Looking at how I was living my own life did.
John
I am not one to blow smoke up any one's ass. If they want things in their life to get better, it has to start with them getting better.
I recognize the pain, the anger ... I acknowledge the feelings... I have experienced them all, in both early recovery and later recovery.
I send a true message of hope to this person... my hope for them;
"It appears they are feeling very neglected emotionally, possibly physically, and becoming very resentful. They don't appear to know what the hell to do with themselves now. I hope that their addiction to their drug...the alcoholic, will make them sick enough that they will join Al-Anon and find a new way of life for themselves, just as alcoholism made the alcoholic so sick and tired that they jump into the rooms of AA as though their lives or at least the quality of it absolutely depended on it. Because it does.
Complaining about how someone else was living their lives, never made mine any better at all. Looking at how I was living my own life did."
Being hurt, in pain, confused, or full of anger does not does not minimize or negate this truth. Just as the alcoholic doesn't need to get the wife back, get the job back, or anything else on the outside to change in order to get well on the inside, the untreated Al-Anon doesn't need to put external conditions on their recovery either. We can and do get well, regardless of whether the alcoholic recovers or not. Joins AA or doesn't.
And to be a bit more honest I truly suspect that this poster's stating that AA is responsible for the condition of their marriage, and calling the life line that AA is providing his wife a "cult" is doing more to damage the legitimate ends of that marriage than AA ever would. What a great show of support for his wife, who is trying to do the hardest thing she has probably ever done in her life... better herself.
Again, I simply hope and pray that this person finds their way to Al-Anon, and while they are hugged and loved through this painful time, they are not lied to or have smoke blown up their ass by being allowed to continue this path of not taking any responsibility for their own life, or quality of it. Including that of their marriage to an alcoholic. In or out of AA.
John
-- Edited by John on Monday 19th of August 2013 12:08:57 PM
Being new to all of this, and still having an AH- I have no idea how this person feels when relating to a R spouse. :D
I think, and it's only my opinion, that often the enabler/co can feel left behind and angry because he/she has been putting up with the A"s miserable junk for years. They have begged, pleaded, ignored, threatened, and repeated all of those for years. Where is the medal? after all, the enabler is the one who is still standing beside the A.
Now== as stated, the A is in the mix with others. Laughing (relating to) and talking about their past, because I think laughter helps stay sane and sober. So, yes there will be resentment. Just like the A will blame anyone they can for their behavior.
I feel terrible for the person who is not happy because of the recovery. I'm also quite happy to know that I'm not crazy because I've always felt my AH is selfish no matter what. I've heard people say that the alcohol makes the person selfish. I think it is the other way around.
Just my opinion.
Be well,
-- Edited by hisimage on Monday 19th of August 2013 01:53:02 PM
-- Edited by hotrod on Monday 19th of August 2013 10:25:25 PM
I agree to a point, John.
At the same time, it is so important to recognize the pain and anger people come to the fellowship of ALANON with. When we react in a paternalistic way, we turn people off (or tick them off) and I believe we have to support people where they are...and once trust is established, then we can challenge self-defeating behaviors by sharing our own experiences.
We all have to start somewhere, and let's be supportive, even when people are at the beginning..and struggling mightily. There have been times when I have been really ticked off, and somehow, I get the impression people want to say..."there, there dear, when you are more enlightened, you won't be angry anymore" -- sorry, I believe that is a top-down judgment, and I don't think it's helpful. Not saying that is what you are suggesting with your post, John, but I think people who have been in the fellowship a long time can scare newbies off...unintentionally.
I do hope Jack returns...I've been in that angry place...and it's heart-wrenching.
Respectfully,
RP
I see all sides. I do have to remind myself often to "meet people where they are". I read something this morning that I took to mean that the first step in healing for anyone is to have someone be with them in their suffering (and this is tricky if they want to stay in their suffering), then they can gently be nudged to a higher place. I get all impatient sometimes and think if I just say the right thing to them, they will be moved....it rarely works, unless, I first can be with them in their suffering. If I can't, it is best for me to be quiet. We are all learning, right? Progress not perfection...and, as I say this so much, "I needed to hear this"
I do like that you don't blow smoke up one's ass....it is refreshing, John.
Yes, I can empathize with his confusion, and angst, but I took exception to alanon being called a Cult...name calling never set well w/me....insults and name calling, I lived with, and to "label" something to me, I did not like....
OK...I am OFF to exercise on trampolene....its a nice sunny day...gonna slather on my sunscreen and blast my tunes and give it a good workout........just had to give my take on this...please use what works and leave the rest...
I don't think he was referring to Al-Anon with the word "cult". Re-read his post.. he is pointing his finger at AA.
John
Ok...my mistake...I will say a corrected reply......AA is not a cult either....
I also noted he didn't come back to post, but nothing says he isn't reading our posts as a guest? We want them all to get help, John. We know what a mess we all were when we first arrived at Al Anon. We're already blaming ourselves for everything that has happened. Then, if our loved one gets sober, we have no clue it isn't going to have a happy ending to it at first and are shattered. We need help picking up the pieces and sometimes that help needs to begin with feeling heard.
I'm not a mind-reader. I don't know what went through this guy's mind when he first posted or what he thought if he read any responses. People become self-centered in order to survive sometimes. I guess I don't have the heart to yell the truth at somebody when I don't know them or know the whole picture.
And I also don't know that yelling the truth at somebody isn't helpful, too? I just don't know. As far as his marriage and treatment of his wife - well - who knows that his venting with us didn't help derail some of it that might come at her? Again, I just don't know.
Yet, in situations like this, I think Paula's consistent reminder - "To thine own self be true," - is probably the best policy for each of us to follow when receiving someone at our board? Maybe everything that is said is just what he and others like him need at the time? Again, who knows? I'm just glad we have a lot of folks at this board who care about people in pain like him, his wife and his family. I'm glad we're having this discussion and that you posted this thread, John. Thank you.
That didn't happen and I got pissed and deleted my account.
That was a dumb childish thing to do - and I apologized for it and came back as the regular old me who's not going to piss and moan and feel sorry for myself - but rather - look to see where I can be of service to others, get outside of myself, and remember why I am here.
But for that moment in time - after just having found out my 4 yr old daughter was being molested by my babysitter, and my alanon was in a very sick place - I needed the support of people who could relate to dealing with tragedy with an emotionally unavailable person. This place was the first place I thought of. I thought I would be safe. I thought I could pour some of it out and off my chest here... and be loved through it. It was important that there was a place in the world to be able to do it.
What I quickly learned is... this IS NOT the place. I went to a live meeting as soon as I could. I had the floor - no one said a word back to me... I just got to vent - I needed that. I'm not afraid to go after what I need anymore, and I'm not ever going to give up anymore. That IS because of this place. Almost everything I've learned in this program has been from this board - but it is a DISCUSSION board... you're going to get feedback... and for me - in that case - the live meeting was the better choice. Live and learn. To me - this place is amazing. I couldn't imagine recovery without being able to ask questions, and hear people's advice and experience. I'm so grateful for YOU John, for giving us a place to practice living our recovery with people from all over the world. Most of my alanon meetings around here are nothing but pissing and moaning. If it wasn't for this board, I would have given up even trying to find healthy solution based people - but I SAW THEM HERE. I knew it existed - and I kept searching and searching for a meeting that I felt at home with because of all of you folks here.
By the time he stopped drinking I felt very unsupported. And yet, there he was in AA and demanding that I support him. And all the websites were telling me that I was a horrible person if I didn't support him. I'm sorry that alcoholics have it so bad. I'm sorry that they are fighting for their lives. I'm sorry that they can't support their families a bit better. I'm sorry that it is such a horrid, awful mess. But the spouse doesn't deserve having someone yelling at them for not being supportive enough. They have been supportive all along. Yes, they have things to work on and a gentle program of AlAnon will help that along.
I was called a b*t*h every day for many years. Those were the years that I was raising 4 daughters, 5 foster teenage daughters, getting my college degree, supporting my alcoholic husband so he could drink himself into a stuper every evening and weekend, and trying to hide it all from family, friends and neighbors. By the time he decided that his ego was hurting because of a DUI, I really didn't care any more. I was angry I was so unsupported.
But at some point someone has to be the adult, and I realized it had to be me. AlAnon was a huge support. It taught me detachment.....and a whole lot more. And I'm still working on me. I am getting happy again and that is my goal.
I did not get married with the intention of living with an alcoholic. If I had known I would never have signed up for it. I had declined dates from guys who drank too much. It took about 10 years into the marriage before I could put my finger on what was wrong. It was the booze.
I agree with John, the poster came in attacking.
Truth should always be told...we cannot help people if we enable them. Life goes by at a quick pace.
Do you want to be suffering all your life or do you want progress.
If you pick up your ODAT book and really read it and listen to what it is saying , it never enables.
This is what we must learn to speak the truth in a compassionate way, always balanced. Compassion does not enable.
Well, I must say after reading these posts, I am humbled.....This guy did come here to vent...He did feel abandoned, kicked to the curb and I wasn't rude to him, but I did not show him the compassion that I would have wanted if I felt lost, forsaken, world turned upside down
and to Jack if you are listening, I am sorry I didn't just listen to you and just say "hang in there, this is new to her and she will come back, healthier, but right now she is clinging to the AA with her fingertips trying to save her life"
I was not very compassionate to this poor guy and I feel badly, but I have, on this thread, made my amend and so now I will move on from it a smarter, more compassionate person....I got kinda triggered at the reference to this program (AA) being a cult and I kinda went with it......
I take responsibility for the not so compassionate stuff I said and my amend is to think b4 I open my big mouth , or in this case, get on the key board.....STOP and THINK....if I can't offer anything loving and kind and helpful??? then I will keep my mouth shut.....
I do hope this guy comes back....I am not sorry about urging him to work his program and to go to meets and to work the steps, THAT I do not take back...None of any A's in my life went to AA, and are still not, so I don't even know what it is like to be closely related to a newbie AA first in recovery......I guess it is as hard if not harder on them then it is us alanoners and codies who are trying to fix our minds....the AA's are doing that AND fighting to save their lives.....so yea, road to get sober and stay sober has to be a hard thing......
Anyway, I just wanted to add this........Peace everyone....
I remember when I first got into recovery....I was a BALL of anger...I mean some of my old posts were horrible...vent a ramas.......I was treated w/compassion, allowed to vent, yes, told the truth, but with compassion, I was "cut a lot of slack" I know I was no "picnic" to share recovery with
But the love and compassion, not enabling me but letting me vent and work stuff out w/a lot of support and ESH...I got through it
All of us have/had good points on this thread.......I just hope this guy comes back and gets into alanon.....However, I am powerless...I have my hands full trying to undo the damage I did to me by going AWOL for so long....Its almost like I am starting over, but not quite....
I am not gonna pass judgement on someone when I have so much stuff of my own thats wrong w/me......In fact...I loved the "talk sessions" i had w/my AA recovery mate and also, today I talked w/another "alanon pal".....Gonna do like Kathleen and do the phone/email/text thingy more...I like it...
I want to be mindful of step 12 and do my step 12, however I wont' stay where I am not "fed"......If I don't feel like its a give and take proposition, or I feel like i can't give and receive necessary ESH with which to share in the healing , I just pack up my toys and move on.....
I hope this guy comes back....I read a lot of pain in his post...pain..confusion...anger...fear......stuff I felt when I was new.....yea, he looked attacking....maybe this was the only place he felt like he could "blow up" and maybe feel safe????
JUST saying....dinner is almost ready.....TTYL
I never thought of myself as "yelling" at any one as was implied by one of the post. Yes, I could try to butter up the truth, to make it more gentle going down, but in my experience, if what is said, doesn't have a certain level impact it won't reach the angry, scared, broken spirit I am trying to reach. If a person reads my post and goes away mad.. they are going away mad, because they are going away thinking about it. And of course there is the old phrase..."the truth will set you free, after it pisses you the hell off!" LOL
John
In my home group half of us are separated and the other half divorce......We are very supportive of each other no matter what and being in either situations are both very brave things to do. The only time I will probably speak up is if is death seems probable as one of my sponsor's ex Al-Anon sponsees was actually killed by her very possessive AH :( It was local on the news and all and somehow the man is still a fugitive unfortunately.
I agree Hotrod, we have to watch the cross talking and the analyzing of anyone's response.
This is not facebook. That is why we have private messaging, if you like the way somebody responded to a poster we can always send them a private message.
Thanks Betty....I can see why these are a part of alanon/12 steps .......I know for me, I HAVE to feel safe in posting or starting a thread....Safety is a big issue with me.....Thanks for this reminder....with such a mixture of people with varying backgrounds and experiences, I agree the only way it (12 steps recovery programs) CAN work is "principles above personalities".......
Paula I for one too am glad John is not trying to blow smoke up someones bum! lol lol I was picturing it in my head when I read it! lol lol
I did not bother responding to Jack as I knew he would not read any of it. Many come here spit it out and never come back.I just felt he was one of them.
BUT it was good for everyone to share and see how each other felt about his bs
I knew he was ignorant when he said addiction was not a disease. Not worth my energy, there are people I care about on here I want to give to.
hugs all,debilyn
Keep coming back K...(((hugs)))