Something Bobump wrote in a reply really caught my eye :“It would be a whole lot easier to detach w/o the kids. With or without love.” This is something I’m really really struggling with and there seems to be no obvious answers.

As some of you know I’m sober over two years and divorced against my wishes since August after 15 years of marriage. Two kids 14 & 12. We got along OK and decided to stay in the house together (she sleeping in the apartment over the garage) until it was sold and we go our separate ways. My ex had a change of heart almost immediately after the divorce and broke down and said she made a big mistake, etc. Our house was under contract to be sold and she was about to buy another one for herself when the buyers backed out. She has since decided she would like to see if we can take it slow and work things out. She has been back in our bedroom now for about a month (sex is out of the question.)

Christmas went pretty good, we spent it together with our kids; Christmas Eve at my parents, Christmas morning around our tree with our kids, Christmas day with her family. We get along pretty good now but she still says that she loves me but doesn’t have the right feelings a wife should have for a husband. She is just starting to see some of the things about herself caused by her codependence. Things I saw that were also observed by family, friends, and councilors.

Anyway, I think the main reason I want to try to work thing out with her is because of the kids. I do not want to stay in a loveless partnership to do that though. I still love her and realize the mess I made of things with my alcoholic behavior and thinking over the years. I feel we are both good (but imperfect) parents who love our kids very much. Honestly, if it weren’t because of the kids, I would probably have no problem saying “that’s it, let’s move on.” Now the problem is, some people tell me that, if that’s the way I feel, I should just call it quits; it should just be about me and her and don’t take the kids into account. My gut tells me that that’s bullshit. What a clean, clinical, cut and dry solution that leaves the kids the victims of the divorce. They didn’t ask for any of this mess. I made a vow to my wife on our wedding day that, even at my alcoholic worst, I always honored the best I could. It seems to me that divorce has become so commonplace and accepted, it’s almost used as a distraction for people to prevent them from fixing what’s really wrong; themselves.

I don’t take this as far as to say that anyone should stay in an abusive relationship or stay with an active addict. Every case and everyone is different.

Any thoughts? Bob, I’d really like to hear from you

Lou

Started to post this in the other thread, but I guess this is the right place. I would not, knowing what I know now, stay in a marriage with an active A simply for the sake of the children. Children growing up in an alcholic household can be badly damaged, and it seems, from what so many here have to say, as if the damage is worse than that of a divorce. Although my husband and I in many ways did a lot of things right with our kids, I can still see the effects growing up with their dad (and with my reactions to their dad) has had on them, and they are not pretty. My son's perfectionism, his need to always be right; my daughter's secret self loathing, her need to blame herself whenever anything goes wrong, her attraction to things and relationships that she is bound to fail at - the seeds lie in the insanity that our home was through much of their early childhood.

Lou, very well said. Thanks for your post. I'm not married to an alcoholic, so I don't have any experience to share in that regard. I am the child of an alcoholic and a pill addict, however, both of whom stuck it out in their marriage for the sake of the kids. I now understand they did the best they could with what they had, but I sure didn't at the time. I remember in elementary school being petrified they would divorce. By junior high I didn't think I could handle it anymore, and I prayed they would divorce. In high school I knew I couldn't handle it anymore and I moved out. 

I got into Alanon in part because the person who is now my husband wanted to marry me and I was petrified because my parents' relationship without recovery was my model to go on, so I kept saying no. I'm finally learning to take things one day at a time and am happy.  As a kid, I was not. I have no suggestions for staying or leaving, for the kids or not for the kids. But I think it's so important to realize we teach as much to our kids by what we do as by what we don't. The choices, as adults, are all ours.

lin060 & pixel04

Maybe some key points that were missed.

...I’m sober over two years...

 ...the main reason I want to try to work thing out with her is because of the kids. I do not want to stay in a loveless partnership to do that...

....I don’t take this as far as to say that anyone should stay in an abusive relationship or stay with an active a...

Or am I just not understanding your replies?

-- Edited by UncleLou at 17:49, 2006-01-13

Lou,

I hear you and I agree with you. :) My experience agrees, too.

Kristen

Lou,

I may go against popular opinion here, but I am speaking from my heart and from the other side of the fence. I have not wanted to break up my marriage with my husband and my kids were a big part of it. There is a huge difference between my situation and yours, My "A" is not sobber. But at the same time I think I can relate because I know he loves me, but he is not capable of loving me the way that I want him to. Even though it is  love, it is not meeting my needs sometimes.

I don't think that you are wrong for wanting to stay with your wife and trying to work it out. I actually think this speaks to what a loving person you are. I am staying with my "A" because I still have hope for his recovery. I honestly believe that my HP will let me know when it is time to move on or let go of the hope. Do you think your wife, maybe with the help of alanon, will be able to recover? Is there any hope that she can rekindle her flame for you and love you the way a wife should love a husband? If there is no hope, then I would leave, that is what I plan on doing in my situation.

My kids are young. 6, 4, and 2. And I know that I am doing right by them by staying. With me working a program they are in the sanest house they have ever been in. They don't see violence, they hear the arguments, but they also see how we work past that. I know in a perfect world some would say that them not being in an alcoholic home is not healthy, but I think it depends on the alcoholic, and the living situation.

Can your kids get into alateen? Maybe they can talk to people who have been where you have been.

Lou, think about what you want, what your needs are.

Hope I helped.

Much Love, 

You summed it all up at the end of your post: 

" It seems to me that divorce has become so commonplace and accepted, it’s almost used as a distraction for people to prevent them from fixing what’s really wrong; themselves.

thanks again Dolphin

Unclelou,

This is tough, but you will do what is right for you.  I have a 4 y/o and before my A went to rehab i was prepared leave BECAUSE OF my son.   It would have been negligent for me as a parent to keep him there.  I was prepared to divorce knowing he really would never be completely out of our lives because of our son.  I still loved him, but I hated what he'd become and I was emotionally spent.  Thankfully, he will be coming up on his 1 year of sobriety, working a fantastic program and he is doing well.  I think he is much further along in his recover than I and I am glad that he is not ready to get rid of me and my codependent ways.  I am FINALLY working a program for me.  Does your wife go to Al Anon?  I was scared by a statistic that most marriages eventually end in divorce (regardless of children) if one partner is working a program and the other partner is doing nothing.  MOstly it is the A who is working his program and he moves on while the partner stays the same.  In my case I wanted him to get help, not just to leave him and we are both doing our work which from what I see in the long time recovering relationships is what needs to be done.  We both need to work our own individual programs.

NOw in the other end of this, I grew up with the alcoholic/codependent parent combo. and they stayed together for 31 years then divorced.  My mom always said she stayed because of the kids.  We WANTED them to divorce and even as I look back on it I would have loved to have been spared their example of marriage!  So stay because of the kids.....I don't think that is the only factor.  I agree with you about divorce being used so freely.  I feel the same way about my marriage vows.  Sickness and health right?  Whatever you decide I wish the best for you.  These are not easy ideas to deal with.  I hope this helps a little.  I really related to what you wrote.  Thanks.

Michelle

Lou,

Would have replied sooner the board was down alot last night.

This is a tough call for me.  A loveless but civil and maybe even 'friendly' marraige may almost seem palatable and doable.  The studies I've seen (and I'm going off memory here, I can't quote them) appear to show the 2 parent households consistently produce more stable children.  Now I'm not sure if there are any studies out there the compare childhood development in :

dysfunctional 2 parent households, non (if there is such a thing) or minimumly dysfuncitonal 2 parent households, min. dysfunctional 1 parent households, and dysfunctional 1 parent households.

My concern with staying in a loveless marraige, is that the children will see that as their model.  I don't know if that is worse than the 1 parent alternative. 

In my case, with me staying as long as I have, they have the model of my A and I see many characteristics there, and they also have the model of my codependent behaviors associated w/ the A and from my past baggage.  I'm at least in recovery.  Will they learn to see me stick it out, setting healthy boundries?  I don't know.  All of my changes are met with extreme resistance, either by the children, the A, or both.  lol

My A, even before the full blown disease ( I saw it coming for years ) and I are totally different parents.

Mom Similiar role as my mom.  LOL
+ talks alot about their day and their feelings
+ does love them no matter what
- projects her lack of responsibility on them, making excuses for them to miss school, stay home w/ her, etc.
- can not dicipline, for many reasons, too concerned w/ them not liking her (own codependency), can't follow through on the dicipline.

Dad Similiar role as my dad
- Diciplinarian, sometimes I go a bit overboard.  Overcompensation?  controlling?
+ tries to instill structure (see working)
+/- provider, sometimes so busy providing so A could be her dream stay at home mom I was not very good at taking time to discuss day and feelings.

It seems that my two daughers seem to take more of both of our negatives behaviors out of the marraige than the positive.  If I had it to do over again, I'd say my kids were very negatively affected by this situation.  My problem does seem different than yours.  It seems to be active alcoholism and mental illness in which I allowed resentments to pile up and affect my action.  It's not so much a civil loveless situation.  So I'm not sure what's better for them there. 

Again, I'm afraid that they will learn to 'settle' for less than being loved themselves.  But they could also learn positive things by you sticking together. 

Best thing Lou is you don't have to make a decision right away as I'm sure you know.  Maybe while you guys continue to stay under the one roof, she'll regain that feeling she had for you.  Maybe she won't, it's possible that you've grown because of the program you found because of your disease and she hasn't.  Maybe you've grown away from those things in your illness that she was subcoinciosly attracted to.  Does she have any program?  I forget?  Oh well, that part is kinda off topic.

Not sure I offered anything more than different perspectives. 

Bob

sas wrote:

---

.  My mom always said she stayed because of the kids.  We WANTED them to divorce and even as I look back on it I would have loved to have been spared their example of marriage! 

---

 

Wow sas, my 14 yo constantly talks to her mom about divorcing me.  She wants a divorce.  Of course my A has spent the last 6 or more months ( I was thinking 3, I just relized 6) of instensive perspective twisting.  She has spent this time having my daughter follow her from room with closed door, to outside smoking (wife only) doing nothing but telling my daughter how I'm a bad buy, how I'm why she went into a mental facility 4 years ago, the gamit.

Now I'm sure this is all foremost in my daughters mind, but she is also in denial of the active alcoholism.  I think my daughter may just want us to divorce too cause she is sick of it.  The running joke in my house is we can't have a holiday w/o my A and I fighting.  There was some fighting leading up to Christmas and there was some Xmas eve, but Christmas Day there was none.  Maybe I made enough progress to do that.   

Thanks for those words tho that the kids may want one. 

Bob

UncleLou,

In my case, I can easily see things from the 'other side' so to speak.  My husband has also been sober for two years.  He also would love to work on the marriage and remain an intact family..."for the sake of the kids". 

I asked him to leave a little over two years ago, so it's no coincidence that he's been sober about that long.

Here's the thing.  Just last week my 16 year old daughter said these words to me: "You are my role model, Mom.  I respect and look up to you so much for teaching me that it's not okay to stay in an unhealthy situation." 

Those words meant so much to me because I still struggle with the fact that I have filed for divorce EVEN THOUGH my husband got sober.  We were married for 17 years - together for 21 years.  The love didn't die overnight.  He started drinking when he was 16 - and it slowly...very slowly...escalated to the point where he was emotionally unavailable to me and the kids and had his moments of verbal and borderline physical abuse.  Looking back now, I believe that as each active year passed by --- the years when he wasn't really 'present' as a loving, supportive husband... the respect factor (my respect for him) was passing by with it.   Bottom line? I had to let go.  I detached alright...but I detached without love.  At that time, I had no idea what alcoholism was all about.  I just knew that I didn't like him anymore, and didn't want to be around him.  It was always about him, him, him.  His needs, his wants, his problems, his work, his feelings, blah blah blah.  It was never about me, and I had reached an emotional emptiness that is hard to explain.  I let go so well...that I couldn't grab back on again...even after he stopped drinking. 

I think it's possible to reach the point of no return.  I still care for my stbx very much, but I know for a fact that I don't love him the way a wife should love her husband.  I don't think I ever could again, and I don't think that's fair to him, to me, or to our kids - to pretend "for the sake of" anything.

Unfortunately, my recovery came after it was too late. I don't know what might have happened had I realized 5 years ago what the disease of alcoholism was all about. To be honest, I'm not sure I could have dealt with it... even if I did understand. 

The arrogance and lack of humility still remains in my husband after two years sober.  He continues to expect me to play by his rules.  If I don't - then it's hell to pay.  I won't exist in his mind unless or until I'm willing to completely forgive him for the past. I told him that I do forgive him, but I won't allow myself to forget.  Forgiveness does not have to equal reconciliation. He disagrees. 

Not once during the two years of separation did he asked me how I'm doing...how I'm feeling...what my life is like. It was still supposed to be what I can do for him.  How I can make his hurt go away...etc...

Sobriety is not the cure-all.  At least not in my case.  The 'isms' continue for him (taking my inventory, judging me, blaming me for his woes...).  He wants me to take on half the blame, half the responsibility for the downfall of our marriage.  I won't do it, because in my mind... the downfall is mostly his to bear.  Humility, humility, humility.

Stay in a loveless marriage? Nope - it serves no good purpose.  Reconcile for the sake of the kids? Again...it serves no good purpose.  Happiness, honestly, truth....those are the best lessons I can teach my kids.  If I turn away from me and ignore my needs, how can I embrace my children and expect them to love themselves?

This is my story.  Take what you like....

D.

All good healthy discussion here, and there are no "right or wrong" answers here, and certainly I can't pretend to know what is the "right" thing for Lou, Bob, or anyone else out here.  My personal beliefs are a lot closer to Diamond's than they are to the others, but I always need to remind myself, when reading this board, that everyone has both a right AND a need, to find the recovery, for themselves, in their own time...

Thanks for all the thought provoking shares on this subject.

Tom

Lou, I wasn't really talking about your situation, but about my own. It is only now, as we come to some semblance of sanity ourselves, that we are aware of how much damage we did to our children. When my son was two and my daughter was a newborn, a marriage counsellor told me to leave my husband, that he saw no way that things would get better in our marriage, and my husband was not willing to even admit the possiblity that some of our problems were due to his behaviour. In my co-dependant way, I immediately thought "If I leave with the kids, he will be dead - either through suicide or drinking himself to death, within a year", and stayed. Of ocurse, things did not get better, they slowly and gradually but inevitably got worse. I don't know what would have happened to the kids if I had left back then, but I do know what happened because I stayed, without any program or any way to deal with the situation sanely. Those children were damaged. This is why I say "I would not, knowing what I know now, stay in a marriage with an active A simply for the sake of the children." The children could be damaged more by growing up in an active A household than by any divorce. Each of us needs to make that choice for ourselves, though, and look at the real situation that we are in. "What are we teaching our children?" If we answer that question honestly, with the help of the tools our programs teach us, the decision becomes clear, I think.

Uncle Lou,

After being apart from my marriage of 21 years for the past three years, I can now see that it was a marriage that mainy consisted of two married people living as single.  Not to say there wasn't times that the appearance seemed as if it was a decent marriage.  And, of course, there were times that seemed as if the marriage could work as a marriage.  But ultimately, I had to realize that with there not being much communication nor trust, there never could be a marriage in a real sense.  There was alot of damage caused by the disease of alcoholism.  There was also baggage brought in from each of us being affected as children ourself.  Today I would not stay in a relationship where communication, compromise and committment didn't exist.  My children, although affected by their father's behavior, mainly of not taking an interest in their life, are relieved that we did not remain together.  There are equally happy for me today as I am in a new relationship.  I still have two of five children at home.  I didn't stay in my marriage because of the children.... I remained until his disease caused him to see other women... My mother impressed on me and my sister that the only reason she stayed in her marriage was because of us, as if it was our fault.  To me that was an excuse not a reason.

Congrats on your sobriety.  Keep working your program, it works if you work it!

 

Take Care

Cilla

I am interested in this topic so here I am again.  I love what Diamond had to share.  Like I said earlier about my own parents we (me and my siblings) wanted my parents to divorce.  It was that environment of continual emotional instability that we wanted to go away.  It wasn't as if we hated either one of them as individuals we just hated them together.   My mom was afraid of being alone with 3 children.  She once told me that she did meet with an attorney to discuss divorce.  She also spoke to her own parent about it and they reacted very negatively saying "what do you think you are going to do with 3 children and no place to go/no money/no job".  This was not exactly supportive.   My parents did they best they could with what they had.  I harbor no ill feelings toward them today.  Not even toward my dad who is still actively drinking.   EVen still I believe in my parents case,  I think it would have been better for all if she would have divorced my dad for all the reasons Diamond wrote about.  We need to be the best role models for our kids....we are the first and most prominent model we have as children. 

With my husband and I, I think I am a lucky one.  My husband is becoming accountable for his actions and I am regaining trust in him and yes, some of his ism's are still present.  Not quite so prevalent as before recovery, but I still recognize them.   We both want to make our marriage work and I think that is critical.  We love each other and we both want to be the best role model we can be for our son.  If my situation was just like my parents (years of active alc./co-dep...........I think my story would be a much different one 

This is so very personal and everyone's story has its uniqueness.  In the end you have to decide what is right for you.  God Bless....Michelle 

Lou, I can't tell you to stay or not, that is not for me to say. As a child who grew up with parents (non addicts) who weren't happy together it hurt me to see that. Divorce was not common then. Sure parents fight, I knew that. I knew my father probably had affairs. At some point I remember telling my Mom that if she thought it was best that the split, then do so. Divorce was not comon then. I grew up with my parents loving me. I was very lucky. But there was always a sadness I remember about them. It took my Mom getting sick for my father to realize that he wanted a family. By then it was too late. She passed away when I was 19. I can't help wondering if they were a little shelfish and thought of themselves, might they both have eventaully found a peace in their heart? Would Dad have passed with a little more peace, and less regret? He always said that he Mom deserved more than he gave her. He died a sad, lonely man stuck in second loveless marriage in which she stole his money because he wouldn't divorce. He use to tell me that the second marriage was the worst mistake he made. He felt like a failure in both. Children are resilient. Just because you decide to separate doesn't mean either of you can't be full time parents. From my perspective, I wish my parents had chosen to live their lives for themselves. It may have hurt my sister and I at the moment, but long term who knows? While it wasn't a home that had massive amounts of shouting, doors slamming, etc. To me it just seemed a trifle more sad than it should be. I think watching my parents be happy would have been more beneficial than remembering them as sad. Just another perspective. Live strong, Karilynn

Hi Lou,

I privately emailed you but have been following what others are responding to.  Each case is different depending on the family, and what has gone on and what is going on.  A priest once told me that in a family, the wife and husband have to be there for each other first before they can be there for the kids, or something like that.  (I can never repeat what people say correctly)  But basically, you and your wife have got married in the first place because there was something there.  Whether or not kids come into the picture in any marriage, you have to work on that marriage constantly, you have to keep the love alive, and try not to fall into a rut.  Eveyone is right to say don't stay for the kids if you don't love her or she doesn't love you, but that is where you have to start from.  You've began the soberiety, she needs to begin hers too.  If she can't acknowledge things she's has done wrong too, then she can't work on loving you again.  You two have to come first, then raise your kids together, then they will be gone someday and it will be just you two again. 

Either you both go to councelling, seperate or together or both, or you sit down several times a week to really talk about your relationship, or you will get nowhere. 

As for being in an alcoholic relationship, depending on the situation, these, I believe are basically the same rules to follow by, but only if the alcoholic/addict is really wanting to get help.  If someone is living in a hell where they don't want to get help, there may not be any point until they come to the conclusion that they need help.  I hope this make sense.

SC 

My parents divorced when I was 10.  At the time they divorced, I thought it was wrenching but probably better because they had been fighting so much.  Now I don't know.  Maintaining two households is tough financially.  My dad wasn't able to pay child support regularly.  Neither of my parents was there for my brother and I after the divorce.  Both re-married and focused on their new spouses. 

So I guess I'd say, from the perspective of time and from looking back at everything from a child's point of view: if the divorce is better for the parents and will bring them more happiness, it could be better for the children as well.  The proviso, of course, is that the children don't end up in a worse situation financially or emotionally. 

Just some things to think about.  I certainly don't have the answers.  I've made my own mistakes as an adult and my children might have a different story to tell from mine.

Hi Lou,

I've been thinking a lot about your post and all of the replies to it.

if I didn't have children, I'm not sure if I would have stuck it out in my marriage for so long.

The thing is we can't take the kids out of the picture. From the minute they come into our lives they are a big part of our marriage, and even if we choose to divorce, the children will still be a string that ties us together. We will always be their parents. There will always be events we will share. Weddings, grandchildren, the grandchildrens milestones, maybe more weddings and the list goes on. We can never if we have children cut our spouse out of our lives totally

I haven't been able to figure out why, but through everything, I still love my husband. There are days I almost hate him, days I don't like him very much and even days that I wondered what I ever saw to make me want to marry him. There are also the days that I can't imagine my life without him. My feelings change often. I guess the part that always confuses me is when people say they are no longer in love. I often think they mean that giddy feeling that comes in a new relationship. That heart skipping a beat every moment in each others company.
After  years my heart can still skip, but I am sure glad it doesn't do it all the time. I don't want to obsess and daydream about what my husband is doing all day, I have work to do and responsibilities. I admitt htere are days he walks in and I am in no mood to deal with him, but other days I can't wait to see him.

If our lives where in danger, I would leave in a minute, I would do whatever I had to to protect my children and my self. But I agree with what you said, Divorce is all to easy these days. Marriage is a commitment, a lifelong commitment. I believe in doing everything possible to honor that commitment. If all is done and the marriage can't be saved then I will know I gave it everything I could.

Only you know what is right for your family. Only you know when you have reached the point that your marriage can't be saved.

I think feelings of love and different kinds of love can come and go as the years go by. It is up to each of us to keep those feelings alive each day. What might have been burnt out can be rekindled, sometimes. If our children know that both parents love them, no matter what, then they will be ok, no matter what we parents do.

I think we all reach points where we wonder how much longer should we wait or should we continue to try. I think the answer is until we are done, and only each of us knows when that is.

                                  Love Jeannie