in many different regards. One of them is my A says I never talk to her about things. Her chief complaint at the momen is that I called her psychiatrist again. She wants to know why I do things behind her back. Honestly htere are a few reasons. It's my whole conflict avoidance thing. I know it's going to be battle, I know there is going to be all kids of BS and repursions, so why not just procrastinate her finding out as long as I can to keep as much peace as possible. Sure that sux, and that is something in my life I know I have to change. She is not the only person I behave this way with. Also, I 'feared' that if I told her these things she would counteract them. If she is drinking while on Rx medications that are dangerous, and I know she is lying to her doctors about her usage. Each time I've called the doctor thanked me and told me that I did the right thing for calling. If I told her I was going to call, she'd just call before I did and say my husband is lying, blah blah blah. I know what is the difference she does that now anyways. The other thing I'm having a problem is answering some of her questions. What does it take / How long will it take for you to give something back, to trust me, to put me back on the account, etc. I honestly don't know what it would take or how much time it would take. I have expressed that and I really don't know why it bothers me that she won't accept that answer. I know there are things that I have to change. She keeps trying to tie her drinking into me changing. I need to give an inch to giver self esteem, positive reinforcement, etc. I know that she will take a mile. I'm so tired of giving or giving in. I'm still holding firm and for me that is progress. I still feel I'm not handling this correctly at all. Maybe I just need to have patience with program. That's hard though when you haven't even gotten a sponser yet. Bob.

Bobump, I hear where you're coming from. I just want to say there is no right or wrong. For the longest time I thought there was a right or wrong way to practice this program, to do the things it's suggested we do. My sponsor tells me there or no mistakes, just opportunities to correct course, and I try to look at it that way. All I can do is the best I can see in front of me to do, no more and no less. If at some future point I can see to do different, I will, but for now what I can see to do is good enough. Getting a sponsor will really help. Keep your ears open at meetings and listen to your HP - you'll find the right person for you. My A's try to pin their feelings and actions on me all the time, and at times it's hard to separate myself from them. We all want to be loved, and it's damn hard to feel loved when someone is harping on you all the time. But love is easy and love is hard, I don't get one or the other. I get to take it all, and HP helps me see through it. You're doing great. Keep coming back. -Hope

Bob, I believe you are doing the right thing in talking to the Dr. about her meds., perhaps saving her life while she may not even think of the repercussions of mixing meds and alcohol. As for her questions. It's kind of hard to even talk about when you can regain trust, especially as you mentioned earlier, while concocting ways to get money from the kids for the alcohol. Christy

(((Bob)))

Most active A's try to tie their drinking to something we do.

My husband always says it is not all him. Then he starts ranting and raving, "Oh it's all me, you do nothing wrong, right?" He says that one problem he has with me is that I do not show him all the bills, nor did I ever let him be in charge of them. The bills come in the mail. He was usually home before me, or whoevr brought them in, put them on the desk. He was perfectly capable of walking over to the desk and opening one. He wants them on a silver platter. He really does not care about them, it is an excuse.

Then he says I never gave him enough responsibility for anything important, pertaining to the kids. I can't, how do you give an active alcoholic, responsibility for your children.

He also complained I did not let him decorate or choose color schemes around our house. This one might seem odd to many, but my husband is color blind. I'm not picking on him, he really is, and has been all of his life. One of our sons is as well.

If I took care of every one of these things, he would come up with another.

Alcoholics need to blame things or people for their drinking. Until they are truly ready to recover, they try and manipulate and barter for their sobriety. Well if I do this will you do that, etc? While they can be very selfish, they have yet to learnt o put the focus on themselves. They know what they want and take it, but they will not accept responsibility for their actions, and they need to blame or make excuses.

It might not be an accurate comparison, but I compare it to the immaturity of a childs thinking. When you ask a group of kids who did something, the answer is almost always "Not me." Otherwise they blame another, just never themselves.

My preschooler still has accidents in his pants on occasion. If I ask him if he messed in his pants, he looks at me and says no. I once said okay then who did, and he told me his brother did it.

Hang in there. The program takes time, and lots of it.

Accept that she will not accept your answers, though they are completely logical. Alcoholics do not think logicaly.

as far as trying to keep the peace, we have all done that. Our lives get so chaotic that we try and not make things worse, sometimes in doing that, we do make them much worse. Sort of like thinking, tomorrow, I'll deal with it tomorrow. Not to bad a thought actually, as maybe tomorrow you might feel stronger. We all do what we have to, inorder to survive and keep our sanity.

If you find your actions are not working positively, then it is easy enough to do something a little different the next time. Very slowly we can change and find a way of life that works, and makes us happy.

Don't get discouraged.

                                                Love Jeannie

Just thinking out loud here... I recall reading in one of our books (How Alanon Works I believe) about how we do things out of love for the A thinking we are helping, when in reality what we are doing is enabling and preventing them from hitting bottom.  A line on P.32 "We may serve as the enabler, rescuing the alcoholic from unpleasant consequences of his or her own making."  Just as we had to get "sick and tired of being sick and tired" to find Alanon and put this program to use in our life, they too need to get that "sick and tired" to want change for themself. 

"Her chief complaint at the momen is that I called her psychiatrist again. She wants to know why I do things behind her back.......If she is drinking while on Rx medications that are dangerous, and I know she is lying to her doctors about her usage."

Are you preventing consequences by those actions?  Honestly bump, I don't know how I would act in a similiar circumstance because I'm sure your main worry is an overdose with the mixture.  So if it were me, would I remain out of my husbands business (as I am taught to do) or would I interfere?  I really don't know.  I guess I would have to think long and hard about it.  If he keeps drinking, well thats a slow death but eventually yes it will end up in death.  If he drinks too much at one time or adds meds to it, that can also lead to death.  Would my interference prevent him from hitting bottom or make his bottom even lower?  Tough questions huh? 

Have you or can you talk to her about those concerns?  Just simple statements.  "I love you and I worry about your health."  Stuff like that.  My A used to rant and rave at me a lot, tell me to leave all the time.  I came to find out that his biggest fear was that I would leave him.  That he thought so little of himself, thought he wasn't "worth" staying with - so he would self-sabotage.  He'd yell at me to leave thinking that would prevent the pain of my leaving in that if I left him he could then turn his anger at that "I tried to make it work but SHE left me", ya know?  We are at a point now in our relationship where I can tease him about that, saying "I'm not going to leave, you're stuck with me.  If I left I couldn't torment you for the rest of your life."  lol  That makes him laugh and also reassures him of my love.  Before Al-Anon I could not see how really insecure he was about that. 

I try to stay out of his business.  When he brings the drinking up ("I wish I could quit" etc) I simply say well you know what you need to do/where you need to go.  (He's been in AA before.)  I have changed my own behavior so that he see's how good it is in our family when he's not drinking versus when he is drinking and I simply go take a bath or get on the computer or do something else and stay away from him.  He doesn't like being alone.  I think he is seeing how it is better, how we have fun when he isn't drinking.  Now that did require a LOT of work on my part.  I had to rid myself of anger and resentment so that I wasn't waking up mad every morning and treating him angrily when he wasn't drinking.  I also had to work on not treating him that way when he did drink.  Maintain that calm, ya know? 

Program sure is a process.  Takes a lot of time.  I've learned to say to him "you might be right, I'll work on that" when he brings things up about me.  Truth to tell, he has been right about things I need to change, although it isn't his business to be taking my inventory.  *wink*  I can now say if he goes on and on about it "you're taking my inventory" and he will stop.  Often though, it is simpler to say "you might be right" when he does mention things I need to or am working on changing.  I validate/acknowledge that yes I am not perfect and need work on me too.  I try to avoid getting into that "well you this and you that" type conversation at him.  I know he knows what he needs to do, he doesn't need me to tell him.  I sure don't like it when someone else tells me what I need to do.  Even if I know/agree, it still rubs me the wrong way, makes me feel inadequate.  I work on reminding myself, change is a slow process sometime and there isn't anyone who can hurry that up for me except myself and HP.  So I think how I feel when someone talks to me that way and I try to respond to/talk to them in a way I would want someone to talk to me.  Putting the shoe on the other foot so to speak.  I can take constructive criticism if it is said nicely. 

Do you have Dilemma of the Alcoholic Marriage?  Thats a great book for communication issues.  Boy, I hate confrontations too.  I'll hold things inside until I blow up like a volcano.  Now thats not good either.  I find if I speak up once about something in a nice way, that often that clears up the issue as opposed to keeping it in my head and stewing it over until Blam!! I'll be yelling and screaming and everyone is like wow! what is she so pissed off about?  It upsets me and them.  Thats not good.  I'm still working on this.  Guess I have to ask myself more often "How Important is It?" when I'm getting annoyed over things at home. 

Guess I've rambled enough, lol.  (I could go on and on ya know... lmao)  Easy Does It bump, progress not perfection, as long as we keep working it we'll keep learning and growing.  Take care!

Lots of good replies here - I just have some thoughts on the drinking and meds thing. If you have spoken to the psychiatrist about her drinking while on meds once, that seems to me reasonable. However, continuing to call doesn't seem to me to serve any purpose. Eventually, both the A and the doctor have to accept their own responsibility in this matter - a doctor should not be prescribing drugs that interact with alcohol to an alcoholic, and should know better than to accept the word of a alcoholic as to whether she is/is not drinking. What would happen here if you were not in the picture? There are two main parties in this issue, and neither of them is you. I know how hard it is, but as you start to stay out of things that are not your responsibility, you do start to get better. It is so hard to know what is true, when living with an active A, but if you look squarely at the situation, you can usually see what part of it belongs to you, and that you have a duty to deal with. The rest, you really can just let go of.

Wow, what a great & full post, there is so much in here - & anyone that knows me  @ all  ( and u do!) knows I take the direct approach, so here comes the dissection...  

One of them is my A says I never talk to her about things. Her chief complaint at the momen is that I called her psychiatrist again. She wants to know why I do things behind her back. Honestly htere are a few reasons. Well, it is dangerous & you love her & don't want to see her killing herself. It's my whole conflict avoidance thing. I know it's going to be battle, I know there is going to be all kids of BS and repursions, so why not just procrastinate her finding out as long as I can to keep as much peace as possible. Sure that sux, and that is something in my life I know I have to change. She is not the only person I behave this way with. I agree with you anyway...  why throw fuel on the fire when the wind will blow it over eventually anyway.  Secondly (as I went with mom to the lawyer's today, he sd, 'if all he ever does is lie to you, why does he deserve every bit of truth from you, clearly the "honesty thing" is not equitable' & I whole heartedly agree. 

Also, I 'feared' that if I told her these things she would counteract them. If she is drinking while on Rx medications that are dangerous, and I know she is lying to her doctors about her usage. Each time I've called the doctor thanked me and told me that I did the right thing for calling. If I told her I was going to call, she'd just call before I did and say my husband is lying, blah blah blah. I know what is the difference she does that now anyways. You are correct here too, if u report to the police first, if u are the one that files the papers first, u are more or less the "good guy" & the other person has to be on the defense instead of having the action, the offense power.

The other thing I'm having a problem is answering some of her questions.
What does it take / How long will it take for you to give something back, to trust me, to put me back on the account, etc. I honestly don't know what it would take or how much time it would take. Trust has to be earned, it is not some "entitlement", it is built in a relationship & when it is destroyed, sometimes it never comes back.  I was married to a bully & it sounds like she is just trying to pester, bully &/or break you down until you give in.  I have expressed that and I really don't know why it bothers me that she won't accept that answer. Possibly because she has a disease, and any other person would accept your answer & back off of you but with this disease they are compulsively trying to get what they want, they know what buttons to push that madden you & they get energy & power from you when you get angry at them...  this justifies their behaviour in their sick little minds. 

I know there are things that I have to change. She keeps trying to tie her drinking into me changing. That is manipulative B/S. I need to give an inch to giver self esteem, positive reinforcement, etc.This is also utter B/S & an excuse to take the focus off of herself & attack you & wtvr it is you are or are not doing.  She may as well say, well, you force me to drink cuz there is alocohol in the world.  My ex husband (still an active addict) would say the same thing basically -- everything was my fault & for a long time I believed it but that is insanity, we are all adults that have our own minds to make up, souls to speak to God with & heart's/consciousnesses to follow.  I know that she will take a mile.This happens when you train dogs, cats, babies, children, ppl we love in relationships, it is just natural.  I'm so tired of giving or giving in. I'm still holding firm and for me that is progress. Congradulations on setting boundaries & sticking to them.  This is why it is hard in the beginning, cuz in the past maybe u tried to make some boundaries & after "x" pestering u gave in.  The thing is the longer you hold out & then FINALLY give in, is the new limit or "game" that they will take it to that point each & every time until they realize you won't give in...  then hopefully the time will begin to shorten - eventually. It is no different with babies & traning animals.  If they find a loop hole, they will divert to it.   (Did u know a person has to hear something 7 times before they are even willing to consider that idea?  I say be repetitive.  If you get tired of talking, make some signs on paper or cardboard or wtvr - I told my mother to do that, and it has worked for her.  One says "No" another says, "I will not hear your feelings unless you write them down."

I still feel I'm not handling this correctly at all.  ((((Bob)))) I was like that yesterday, some days we just get tired of it all.  As long as you make clear boundaries & stick to them, u are doing fantastically!

Maybe I just need to have patience with program. That's hard though when you haven't even gotten a sponser yet. I am just as stubborn as the best of them - as a kid & adult, mother accuses me of wanting to reinvent the wheel (I say, "so!") yes I want to do it myself, my way.  I have nvr had a sponsor, thankfully for this board & site I can confess & work steps & get suggestions - just what a sponsor would be doing.  I do talk a lot to everyone, including my mother & these days God hears me too, maybe I'll "make" HP m sponsor.  God seems to know the most about everything anyway.  (I'm sure this comment will 'freak some ppl' out & I'm not recommending it for anyone, just giving my honest ESH as I always do.  

I have a hard time with patience period, I am still trying to find some with myself but that is getting better.  It seems like a day or two are bad & then it gets better again, the 'ole ebb & flow thing.

Besides all of this therapy & new way of acting is just that, with practise it will get easier & easier.  You do have your kids to be concerned about also, let me tell you what others told me here when I first started posting:   GIVE YOURSELF A BREAK & DON'T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF!!!

p.s.  Keep coming back, it works, the 3 C's, let go & let God, live & let live, one day at a time & one thing at a time ,easy does it, remember to breathe & give it over to HP, HALT (am I hungry, angry/anxious, lonely, tired?), FEAR (future events aren't real), but for the grace of God go I and Progress not Perfection.  whew!  

Bobump,

I just think you got the greatest suggestions above. Read and re-read them and take what you want and leave the rest. You are on the right journey. Keep reaching out and coming back and things will get better for you everyday. :) cdb

Wow... those are all really hard issues Bob, and I'm sure you've examined them in every way already.... Here's my take, from an outsider's perspective....

Calling your A's Psychiatrist, out of concern that she may be "lying about how much she is using", and it may effect her meds....  in my humble opinion, goes beyond the line of "taking care of ourselves"..... Of course, only you can draw "your line" on such stuff, but if she is not seriously at health risk (i.e. imminent life or death), what's wrong with letter HER suffer the consequences of her behaviors??  My gut reaction, to your post, is that you are continually trying to give her a "soft landing", and that is not typically what our A's really need... Unfortunately, when we are trying, perhaps out of good intentions, but trying nonetheless - to "protect our A's from themselves", we end up, in fact, enabling them, and that doesn't do anyone of us any good....

Have you ever read volume one of "Getting Them Sober", by Toby Rice Drews?  That book, was easily the biggest single "eye opener" for me, and helped me get MY recovery on track, and helped me figure out where to draw those lines or boundaries....

Take care

Tom

Wow what a list of things to ponder, and directions from which to look at things.

I appreciate all of you who posted so far (making sure I don't cut off the possibility that others would post, lol).

Thanks all !

Be glad that her psych accepted your call and your concern.  When I called my a's psych almost 2 years ago and told him that the Klonopin was affecting the a so he craved the drink even more, he gave me all the polite responses that he understood my concern and he would check into it.  Well, his idea of checking into it was to turn around and call my a and tell him every single thing I said.  So then the a turns around and attacks me for sticking my nose in.  The whack job kept him on the Klonopin for another 17 months AFTER I told him there was a problem and he only changed it then because the a finally admitted that yeah, maybe I was right and the med was setting off his binges.  I just can't comprehend why the words of the concerned sober family member were ignored and the lies of a drunken addict were taken as law.

As for the tying you to the drinking, been there, done that, still there.  My story is I'm a crappy housekeeper.  So I don't clean every day, so my house isn't spotless, the a doesn't work so if he doesn't like it, why doesn't he do something about it!  But no, he'd rather sit and stew over petty little things until they build up into a drinking binge and then everything's my fault.  I'm so glad I've learned a tiny bit of detachment, because it sure feels good now to calmly say "No, that was YOUR choice."

Good post, bump, thank you for the food for thought.

Just my two cents,

FOTB

Well I think he did blow me off the first call. I told him my concerns, he thanked me for bringing them up said that these were things that he was unaware of and needed to know. He said that he would reschedule my wife's appt sooner. Well the earlier appt never materialized and my wife told her sister that she told him she stopped drinking. So, considering there was no earlier appt for me to go that I was aware of, I called again. This time my sister in law called as well. Now with two family members calling w/ the same concerns he was more inclined I guess. Bob