and having to do all this crap?

They're drinking is THEIR problem. Why cant THEY get help and not come back to us until THEY'RE better? why is it US having to go get help? WE're already being punished living with this crap why arent THEY doing something about it and getting help?

Barbara, to answer your question, becuz they are very ill. Their brains are soaked in alcohol or other drugs, and/or they are brain damaged. It controls them, they don't control it. That is why it takes something happening becuz of the addiction to make them so sick they never want to go there again. A person can listen and learn that smoking is wrong and know yea it is.But until it is in their heart and they truly believe it, they can't and won't quit. It takes months to change a habit. A disease is a lifetime change. It never, ever goes away. Everyone is different. But Barbara, alanon could be a course in a school and should be. I am a better person, I have grown up so much. I don't worry anymore, don't stress out horribly, learned to be very happy and satisfied living alone. Sometimes its not easy, but nothing is. I change me, when I see I clash with others I love. We can only change ourselves, and it is up to us how we are going to grow up. Keeping it simple, one step at a time, one day at a time, are all living skills. If it helps us to love our A, great. A's are human too, many times very nice people wiht a horrible disease. As we get well. we see that more and do not take their disease personal. This is lifetime process, our recovery is never over. After awhile we want to thank the A in our lives becuz their Aism brought us to this gift of miracles. I will say no other chat room or message board I have seen is so clean and real. Been here on this sight for so many years i see the weird ones disappear. The serious ones stay. I hope this helps you. What you are feeling and asking are perfectly natural, part of the process. It is amazing to me when i see everyone in different stages of recovery. I remember when I was there, and see that it was normal to go thru that, and I am so glad I did not send the A completely away becuz what came next made me see things in a truer light. These are people, if we love them, need our love. They need us to be healthy for ourselves. Hopefully it will encourage them, but it is for us not them. We need anti stressors they are vital. Go do what ya do to forget and lighten up. I love to go to Goodwill and snoop around like a treasure hunt. Or I go take a nap in the barn on nice hay and straw with my huge pig Estersue with Chief my horse standing over us, then a few cats come.....just simple silly stuff. They are sick, we cannot do anything for them directly. Sending you love, and hope,stay on your path to serenity, love,debilyn

Barbara, to answer your question, becuz they are very ill. Their brains are soaked in alcohol or other drugs, and/or they are brain damaged. It controls them, they don't control it. That is why it takes something happening becuz of the addiction to make them so sick they never want to go there again. A person can listen and learn that smoking is wrong and know yea it is.But until it is in their heart and they truly believe it, they can't and won't quit. It takes months to change a habit. A disease is a lifetime change. It never, ever goes away. Everyone is different. But Barbara, alanon could be a course in a school and should be. I am a better person, I have grown up so much. I don't worry anymore, don't stress out horribly, learned to be very happy and satisfied living alone. Sometimes its not easy, but nothing is. I change me, when I see I clash with others I love. We can only change ourselves, and it is up to us how we are going to grow up. Keeping it simple, one step at a time, one day at a time, are all living skills. If it helps us to love our A, great. A's are human too, many times very nice people wiht a horrible disease. As we get well. we see that more and do not take their disease personal. This is lifetime process, our recovery is never over. After awhile we want to thank the A in our lives becuz their Aism brought us to this gift of miracles. I will say no other chat room or message board I have seen is so clean and real. Been here on this sight for so many years i see the weird ones disappear. The serious ones stay. I hope this helps you. What you are feeling and asking are perfectly natural, part of the process. It is amazing to me when i see everyone in different stages of recovery. I remember when I was there, and see that it was normal to go thru that, and I am so glad I did not send the A completely away becuz what came next made me see things in a truer light. These are people, if we love them, need our love. They need us to be healthy for ourselves. Hopefully it will encourage them, but it is for us not them. We need anti stressors they are vital. Go do what ya do to forget and lighten up. I love to go to Goodwill and snoop around like a treasure hunt. Or I go take a nap in the barn on nice hay and straw with my huge pig Estersue with Chief my horse standing over us, then a few cats come.....just simple silly stuff. They are sick, we cannot do anything for them directly. Sending you love, and hope,stay on your path to serenity, love,debilyn

(((Barbara)))

it is natural to get angry and say this is their problem, why are we suffering.

I have said many times that I am tired of the kids and I suffering the consequenses of his drinking and his poor choices.

That's where it being a family disease comes in. It is easy to put all the blame on them. They drink, we have to do everything. They are lazy, all the weight ends up on us. It is very easy to take their inventory. The list could go on and on. The hard part is accepting that we too are sick, and taking our own inventory.

When I first came to Alanon it was for someone to help me to make my husband stop drinking. After a few meetings, I realized that they where not going to do that. I didn't like what was being said.

Hey, how come they keep refering to my problems and my issues, I'm the sober one? When I asked; Ok how do I make him stop drinking, or at least slow down? (it was a long time ago, I actually thought he could drink like anyone else.) They told me I can't. Well I didn't like that and I didn't go back for over a year. It wasn't until a situation with the kids led me to counseling that I went back. The counselor suggested it.

This time I knew they wheren't going to help me stop him from drinking, so that idea was out of my head. I listened, and learned. Okay, I wasn't sick, but how come I was doing the same things almost to the letter as these other people? How come my life was so scripted? How come a counselor and other people could tell me the outcome of things before they happened if I continued doing things the smae way? It made me sit up and start asking questions, not about him, but about me. Instead of beating my head against a wall trying to "fix" him, I started looking to "fixing" me. Well at least that didn't have me banging my head on the wall.

Don't get me wrong, life is still hard. I still have days where I cry and feel sorry for myself and feel desperate and hopeless. After all I am still married to an actively drinking alcoholic. But I have found that I can do something about the things I can change. I know that if eventually I have to end this marriage for good, I can survive, and so can my kids.

If I am doing all the work, (and I am), and I choose to stay married, I know it is me that chooses to remain married, something I do have control over.

Not to be mean or sound cliche but; "Life is not always fair." Why are we punished? Because we are allowing oursleves to be punished.

Loving an Alcoholic is hard. In my case becasue I do love him, leaving an alcoholic is even harder. I can put him out of my home, but he is still in my heart. Until I can put him out of there, and I don't think I ever can, there will be some hurt. That I ca't change. What level of hurt, and how I deal with it, I can change.

The Serenity Prayer asks God to grant us the Serenity to accept the things we cannot change, the courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference.

Alanon teaches us the difference. It also helps give us the strength to make the changes of the things we can change, namely oursleves.

I'll be honest after more than ten years, it still isn't easy. I was born into an Alcoholic family, I wasn't born rich, I wasn't born brilliant and I wasn't born with a models face or body. I can't change what I was born with, but I can learn to make what I do have work.

I still hope and pray my husband stops drinking. I still hang onto my Marriage. I can still manilulate the situation, but I then realize what I am doing. I still go off in rants and raves, and I still need to vent. I'm not perfect, I'm not totally innocent in any of this, none of us are.

We always have the option of walking away from the alcoholic; but if we do not deal with oursleves, we are almost destined to repeat the same mistakes. It has been proven that if a person divorces an alcoholic and does not work on themselves, they usually end up with another alcoholic. We are drawn to each other.

I believe in happy endings. I am such a Pollyanna that I always try to have hope. If the story is bad, we don't have the ability to change all the characters, only our own. If we do that, we can change the ending. Every life touches another.

So okay I have rambled on, to answer your question, why are we being punished, it is because we are allowing it to happen. You have the ability to put all the blame on him and stay miserable, or you can look in the mirror and say," Let me start changing me." You are important and special and have a right to be happy. Don't depend on someone else for that happiness.

                                  Love Jeannie

Barbara I have asked the same questions as you, albeit in other words...Alcoholism is a disease of the mind and body, leaving the alcoholic incapable of responding in a logical way. I am sorry that you are dealing with this day after day. You anger is a reasonable emotion, not unusual, and completely understandable. Are we at fault? No. Are we "diseased"? No. Do we suffer as much or more than the alcoholic? Yes. It's unfair Barbara, and because it is, we must make choices. Do we hang in there with the A for the duration, or do we break and run? It's an individual choice, made after long consideration, heartache, and pain. I will keep you in my prayers so that you may be able to handle this crisis in the way that is best for you. Good luck. With great caring, Diva

To a very large extent I agree with Diva.

The question has to be asked, why we are staying in this situation?  Frankly, there are very few good reasons to stay in a bad situation of any kind.  So, we have to understand what is motivating us to stay and determine if that motivation a valid reason.

As to whether or not we are equally ill:  Life bends us all in different directions.  We have to take stock of ourselves and determine our strengths and weaknesses.  We have to do what we feel is best for ourselves.  And if we need therapy to arrive at the strength to meet those challenges, that is not an admission of illness. 

 

hi barbara

i belive we too suffer from a disease

they call alcoholism the family disease for a reason..often we are children of the A too or children of disfuntional families and our brothers and sisters are A too.  therefore untill we come to a place where we see we are also sick and start to fix ourselves and the reasons we will put up with them being as you said..buttholes...and start to have boundarys and own our part in it..we put up with the bad behavior and compensate by pissing and moaning and whining and anger and frustration..we are also buttholes.  i dont know about you but my first instinct when someone is a butthole to me is to be one right back.

being nasty to people makes us feel worse about ourselves.lieing for people and covering up for them makes us liars too

i would have said in the old days..that i was honest.  i was a liar and lying to myself,as well as anyone who would lissen, and deep down in the pit of my gut i knew that. thanks to alanon i no longer live in the misery of that.  as time goes by you will have realizations you will if you get a program sponser and work the program hard come to a place where you feel good about you whether you stay with the A or go and whether he drinks or not..you CAN be happy.. i can testify to that, because i have lived it.  it takes time to heal, and while i have a long ways to go, i see the results of working my program. most days i have peace.

hopefully you will go to face to face alanon in your town and do this.. it will show you a new and better way.

it has saved my life.

take what u like and leave the rest

 

Do their actions suck? Damn straight. Does this disease suck? Same answer. Have I gotten angry? Sh** Yeah ! Sure they should get help. And it can only happen when they want it. I'm certainly not angry about having to go for help. The disease only exasberated (sp?) poor behaviors and coping skills I already had. The disease made me hit my own rock bottom. In getting help, I'll be improving MYSELF and MY life. With or without the alcoholic. Bob

this is easy for me to answer - it's 'cuz it is painful to see someone we love destroying themselves & they involve us by whining & saying they want to stop or wish they could, so our empathy goes out to them & then they begin the process of the "psychic vampirism" sucking our enrgy & love out of us.

It is painful to be helpless to help them & yet they are sucking the life force right out of you.

I had to face the painful realisations about me that was attracting or tolerating abuse behavior from alkies/addicts.

Lots of times, ppl come to the program hoping to change anoher, the realisation is that even if you change your own behavior or attitudes - it still efects a change in them.  Sometimes it not such a pleasant one.

I have heard stories of A's going to AA & asking their mates to go to al-anon...  then the A's get angry...  we learn to how to stop enabling them & this makes a lot of A's furious -- it certainly did happen in the case of my step-father.

Well, he went to a few mtgs & started spewing slogans, steps.  I had to give my mother the "ammo" to counter what he was saying, so she could learn how to defend/protect  herself against his wrath.  For example he continued to belittle/criticize her. 

I told her to tell him to take his own inventory, and so on.  It does help us to counter them when we have our own programs too.

My suggestion for no longer being in pain over your A is not to think about him,  I was told the A's never think of us & it's true, all they care about it what pretty lame lie they can make up to enable them to "get what they want at that moment, wtvr it is".  A shoulder to cry on, food, empathy, someone to yell at & put down, so they can justify themselves -- 'if she loves me & I'm so cruel  horrible, she must really deserve me/it' .

Focus on yourself, do what you like to do, think of what makes u happy - if you were as bad as I was & I couldn't even remember what made me joyful (other than the love of my animals) I began to make lists...  so when I remembered something, I wrote it down.

I can recall what brings me joy today, thank you HP.   

I was watching TV late one night and a Public Service Announcement came on for Al-Anon.  It said "You can see what their drinking is doing to them...but can you see what it is doing to YOU?" 

That is why I am here in Al-Anon.  That is why I will be a lifetime member of Al-Anon.  Yes, I came to see how I had been affected, how I had become this angry, despairing, blaming, unhappy person.  I thought if he would just stop drinking that everything would be okay.  I know better these days.  I understand now that it is NOT just the drinking, that it is the behaviors behind the drinking that are the real problem.  His behaviors and MY behaviors.  I have worked hard and am still working hard on my own behaviors.  As I change, I see small changes in him too.  There is a line in our literature which says "Changed attitudes can aid recovery."  I know these changed attitudes of mine aid me.  I also see them aiding him.  For me it is a win-win situation.  I know today that even if he does not quit drinking and the disease progresses (as it will), that if I have to one day make the choice of leaving, I will be okay.  Today with what I have learned in Al-Anon, I only see myself leaving if it is a matter of physical safety.  Today I can look at him and see someone in the grips of an illness as opposed to my old thinking of "he does it on purpose and can quit anytime".  Today I no longer "punish" myself by enabling this family disease, by throwing my hands up and playing the "victim".  I DO have choices.  I can choose to learn how to live in serenity regardless of what is going on around me.  I am grateful that I finally came to Al-Anon and learned this.  It helps me in all facets of my life. 

Keep coming back!

DITTO>>>>>>>>>>>>The question has to be asked, why we are staying in this situation?  Frankly, there are very few good reasons to stay in a bad situation of any kind.  So, we have to understand what is motivating us to stay and determine if that motivation a valid reason

 

ROSIE.......when i am doing something/  keeping something/  or remaining in negative circumstance, i ask  what is pay off??? like my   alkie,  EX.....i stayed with him out of fear of being alone......fear of not being able to take care of me  (that was a joke,  he was the one out of work all the time)........fear of failure......fear   fear   fear  of change.....fear of unknown.........i stayed out of fear,  till the pain  got WORSE than the fear,  than i cut my losses, and never looked back...........BEST choice i ever made in my B4 recovery days......now??? you couldn't pay me to marry another  A  or  NA   ...a coda/ alanon/ acoa????? sure!!! if they have been in program  like we are???? yep......but the addicts?????  NO!!!!!   done with that crap and all the pain...........just my take, please use what works, leave the rest.....rosie

I know from experience that it is hard to see the positive in all the mess we sometimes live in, but start looking at it in a different perspective....look at what you are doing for yourself.  Look what a strong person you will become.  Look at what happens when you start taking care of yourself and quit caretaking after someone else.  You will start to enjoy life in a whole new life.  We can ask why? why? why? as many times as we want, but the truth is there is a REASON for everything in our lives, we may never know the reason and asking why will only make us crazy....read lots about the disease, about co-dependency, about our own recovery.  Hang in there, read the posts often, attend f 2 f meetings, and post often, even if it's just to vent. 

Hugs Mary

 

I understand how you feel.  I have to say that, for myself, I should have started with Alateen years ago when I first felt the need to go.  I never did, and then resisted going when I had an alcoholic husband, and again when my teenage daughter said she was an alcoholic.  As you said, they had the problem, so why did I need to go?  My church teaches a lot of the same things Al-Anon does (& probably most other churches do too) -- personal responsibility, keep the focus on self, unconditional love, seek higher guidance, God's will not my will, etc. etc. -- but Al-Anon comes from a fresh direction for me.  I am finding it very helpful to look at all of my behaviors and to recognize many that are counter-productive.  The things I am learning (& sometimes re-learning) in Al-Anon don't just apply to my relationships with my alcoholic daughter.  They apply to work relationships and to my relationships with other family members and with friends and clients.  So, my daughter may or may not ever benefit from a program, but her alcoholism has forced me to change.  And that is good.