Believe it or not, I have never known another alcoholic besides my husband, so have chosen you to hopefully answer a couple of questions. I read your post below about the alcoholic hating himself, being insecure and afraid, and I suppose I believe all of that is true. At the same time, my glorious A seems so self-assured, genuinely a guy who has things well under control...except when he is drinking. When he drinks, he says things that he does not or will not remember when he is sober. Such as...I am so much better than he...He wants nothing and no one...he'll just go away alone. We'd both be better off...he hates everyone from the government to the alhletics to doctors to the person on the street. During sober times, he likes people, loves me dearly, wants to be together in our well-deserved idyllic lifestyle. He still is not crazy about the politicians, but that's another story...LOL!! Still, underlying it all, I know there is a dark side lurking. Tell me Lou; which is true? The drunken rantings or the sober, loving talk? He swears that I should pay no attention to what he says when he is drunk, but by God, it hurts!! I am beginning to think that the truth comes out only when he is drunk, and that thought is killing me. H*E*L*P!!!
Best wishes to you, Diva
Jill said
Sep 25, 2005
oh I sure hope you get a good answer, because that very question eats at me. I have decayed into not even worrying about it anymore because if the truth is unleashed only with the barriers down, ugh that man is not who I want for husband! I'm going to tune in to see how this works out. Jill
ditto said
Sep 25, 2005
Hi Diva,
As it happens, my employee was asking the same question of me about a man/boy she has a crush on. He treats her like a friend the majority of the time. The other night he got drunk said something which gave her some hope of deeper hidden feelings, and then he tried to seduce her.
There is a latin phrase: in vino veritas. It means, literally, there is truth in wine and figuratively, that people are more likely to say what they really feel under the influence of alcohol because their inhibitions are lowered.
My husband, the a, will only admit to being alcoholic when he is drunk. When he is sober he tells me that I am a straight-laced prude who thinks anyone drinking a glass of eggnog once a year at Christmas is alcoholic. He further avers there is no such thing as alcoholism.
But, people who are drunk say lots of things -- many of which make no sense. I think of it as their mind mis-firing as a result of being pickled. And since they lie when they are sober, what is to prevent them from lying when they are drunk?
Actions probably speak the loudest and lie the least. And really, do we want to base our reality, perceptions and actions on the utterings of someone drunk who cannot remember his confessions during sober moments?
Anyway, although I think we are putting a lot of pressure on Uncle Lou to speak for the entire population of alcoholics, I would also be interested in reading his response.
Diva said
Sep 25, 2005
Ditto, your posts are always well-constructed, and your thoughts are always lined up like little soldiers. I enjoy reading your posts, so keep 'em coming. I know Uncle Lou is being tapped upon here, and I am looking forward to his response should he choose to make one.
Carpe Diem!!! Diva
david62 said
Sep 25, 2005
Hi Diva,
I too really love your posts as well as Ditto's. You both are always so thought provoking. Keep them coming the both of you!
I can tell you that my ex wife would also tell me the most hurtful "truths" when she was drunk. After she would sober up she would be remorseful for having said things in the manner she did when she was drunk, but would say that she only had the courage to talk about certain things when drunk.
Well, when all was said and done, after she got into recovery and decided to end our relationship, the real "truths" started to come out. She is a master manipulator and by her own admission a fabulous liar. And she lied when drunk as well, she was just more hurtful than when she was sober.
Most of her drunken "truths" were in actuality further attempts at manipulation. In the case of my A, her lies were designed to drive me away from her. I truly believe it was her attempt to cause me to end our marriage because she did not have the courage to do it herself. This lying did come to an end when she finally got into AA and began to work the program. It ultimately gave her the strenght to tell me the "real" truth. That she wanted out of our marriage. All of the other crap she would hurl at me when she was drunk was an attempt to get the desired results without the responsibility attached.
A lot of this is the "truth" as I see it of course. I remember asking myself those same questions too, where is the truth, drunk or sober? But ultimately, we have to look at the actions as Ditto states. And also, for me anyway, I have to keep the focus on myself and remember that I was dealing with the cunning disease of alcoholism. And try not to take things too personal. Detach from the disease and try to love the person.
I too hope that Lou has the opportunity to read this, and decides to answer.
God bless you all for being here.
Yours in Recovery,
David
canadianguy said
Sep 25, 2005
For what it's worth, I think they are BOTH true... both the drunken rants AND the lovey talk... Addiction does a lot of damage, emotionally and otherwise... They live life on an emotional rollercoaster, and sometimes you get one end of the spectrum, and other times you get the opposite...
Just more reminder that we truly have to take care of ourselves, get ourselves healthy, and then we can handle whatever life throws at us...
Take care
Tom
Karilynn said
Sep 25, 2005
Diva,
Here's another perspective. My A and I have really good communication. We've been friends since college (yikes, was that really 20 + years ago?).
I've always believed that when he's drunk he says certain things that I know he doesn't mean. I asked him about it one day. It came down to the fact that for a lot of his rantings it's the alcohol talking. Mainly when things are aimed at me and he's drinking things come out that are more about his mother who use to beat him, and his ex-wife who use to beat him as well. When I ask him about it the next day. He can't remember. He will often question himself as to why would he say those things to me? They have nothing to do with our relationship. I've often said even to his councelors "It's his disease talking."
I guess I've found the ability this past year to be able to separate which is which. I've been able to separate which behavior he means, and which he doesn't. It might be because both of our degrees and graduate work are in cultural anthropolgy which deals with human behavior and their patterns. Or maybe it's just luck that I can do that. [How I wish I could do that with my sister! ]
We all say things in anger and frustration. Watch out if I'm pushed too far. But the people I love know the difference between me venting and me meaning what I say. For one, if I have something to say and I'm angry, I usually do it in the calmest way possible. I'm just not one of those people who likes to raise their voice.
Not knowing your husband and you I can't give you a definitive answer. But from reading your posts (which I love dearly) my gut is saying it's probably a combination of both. The trick is learning which is which. Being able to say to myself "It's the alcohol talking" somehow takes the burden off of my shoulders of feeling bad when he vents the stuff that has nothing to do with me or us. Now that he's recovering I hope that I will never have to say that "It's the alcohol talking" again. I wish that for you too.
Live strong,
Karilynn
P.S. You weren't affected by the hurrican were you?
UncleLou said
Sep 25, 2005
WOW .. Talk about pressure. I am in no way qualified to speak for the entire population of alcoholics, sometimes my thoughts are so screwed up I don’t even feel qualified to speak for myself.
Diva, one thing I can tell you about myself, and a lot of other recovered alcoholics is; we are incapable of being honest with ourselves while still active. We are delusional. Do you know what that means? The effects of the disease are so powerful, the denial so strong, we will distort our own reality to support the rationalizations required to keep drinking. Read The Doctor’s Opinion chapter of the Big Book where it says “they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false.“ Diva, you said your husband “…seems so self-assured, genuinely a guy who has things well under control…” Of course most of us are just like that when still active. Reading more of the Big Book pg. 73 “More than most people, the alcoholic leads a double life. He is very much the actor. To the outer world he presents his stage character. This is the one he likes his fellows to see. He wants to enjoy a certain reputation, but knows in his heart he doesn’t deserve it.” I know this fit me perfectly. I wanted everyone to think I had it all together but in my heart I knew something was empty inside. I never wanted to face that emptiness and I didn’t until I started to get sober. There may be glimpses of truth coming through when his guard is down while drinking. But it’s just as likely he will say things he doesn’t mean either. Why? The self loathing is so strong, he will deny it and place blame elsewhere. While not drunk he may be appalled at what he said while drunk, but his disease will find a way to rationalize his behavior, still blaming everyone else, or blaming the fact that he was drunk while he said it. The only truth that really comes out when he is drunk is that he is an alcoholic. His thoughts and behavior while either drinking or not drinking are not sane unless he recovers.
The path to recovery through the 12 steps is all about humility. I used to think that humility meant that I had to think I was ‘less than’ everyone else. Now I just substitute the words “self honesty.” To me it is finally looking at myself honestly, not only the bad parts but the good stuff too. I’m sober 2 years working the steps and I’m still struggling with it. If I look at myself objectively or listen to friends and family, I know I have a lot to offer. I’m a kind, patient, loyal friend. I’m talented. I can build just about anything with my hands I want. I do carpentry, electrical work, plumbing. I’m an excellent cook. I had a successful engineering career taking on and successfully completing complicated projects no one else in the company could even conceive of. I have a US Patent in my name. I have artistic talent. I designed and built my own 4000 sq ft Victorian home. People tell me I still have a lot of untapped potential. Inside that exterior, there was nothing. I was a shell of a human. Once my job was gone (I lost all interest and was asked to resign) I checked myself into rehab. What did I have left? My wife said to me ‘you’re a jerk’ when she dropped me off at the rehab. When she came to see me she stiffened up when I hugged her and turned her head when I tried to kiss her. On the phone I’d say ‘I love you’ and hear silence back. I’d say it again and hear back ‘I heard you.’
OK now, lets have a look. Pain relief from alcohol gone, job of 19 years gone, rejected by wife. All the stuff I used to prop me up, gone. What’s left? Complete and utter insecurity as a human being. Looking at all the thoughts and memories of a forgotten child hood of zero self esteem, depression, unhappiness, and fear of being who I am. The resurfacing of all those feelings of inadequacy were excruciating. All the more so because of the rejection of my wife while I’m going through all this. It just reinforced everything I negative I thought about myself as a person. I’m in tears as I’m writing this, that’s how painful this whole thing was. There were so many negative childhood feelings, buried beneath layers of surface achievement and numbed by alcohol, to sort through. As the old wounds were opened for cleaning, I felt like my wife was there to poke them and pour salt in them. Her comment to me to ‘get a job or get a lawyer’ as my unemployment was running out did wonders for my recovery and my desire to be closer to her. Is that all I am to you is my ability to earn money? A year into sobriety, I went to my son's 8th grade back-to-school night. Left the school and cried on the way home from all the painful memories that came back from being that age and hating who I was. I could keep going, but I think you get the idea. This is my own experience, of course, I don’t know how my story applies to anyone you know.
I can talk to other alcoholics about this stuff and they all seem to understand. ‘Earth people’ don’t seem to get it. This has been a tough road for me these past 2 years but I hope I’m coming out of this a stronger, more compassionate person. I still have a lot of growing up to do. At least I have found some humility, something I never had before; I had a very distorted view of who I was. I really believe most active alcoholics suffer from lack of humility. That is why the 12 steps are based on honesty with ourselves, with others and with God.
Look at it this way. The disease distorts the alcoholic’s thinking to create the insane rationalizations about his drinking. My disease wants me dead, so of course I became a master manipulator. When active, just because I wasn’t drinking didn’t mean I was thinking sanely, regardless of my good intentions. If an alcoholic, drinking or not, has not attained the level of humility to see this, he cannot be honest with himself. If he cannot be honest with himself, how can he possible be honest in his interaction with others, regardless of his intentions. I don’t think there is any black or white as to when an alcoholic’s true feeling come out drunk or not. It’s all a mess in his own head until he recovers. I hope this sheds some light on some of this insanity you are all dealing with.
Lou
-- Edited by UncleLou at 14:44, 2005-09-25
Karilynn said
Sep 25, 2005
Lou,
What a brave man you are. I'm in tears just reading it.
You have no idea what a good, decent, loving man you are. May you someday know just how special you really are to us. I hear my A in your voice. I hope he realizes it too someday.
Live strong,
Karilynn
canadianguy said
Sep 25, 2005
Hey Lou - I think we, as Al-Anons, also struggle with that whole "honesty" thing as well, and you A's certainly don't have the market cornered on delusional, lol.
I don't know of anyone who says they consider themselves "dishonest", but I have learned more about myself, and more about truth and self-honesty, in the last ten years, than I could ever have imagined... I think we all are guilty at times, of dishonesty - both externally and internally.
Tom
david62 said
Sep 25, 2005
((((((((((((((UncleLou)))))))))))
Thank you so much. You are a good man my friend. I am proud of the way you are dealing with your life. God has something better in store for you my friend.
I appreciate so much hearing your point of view, and this is one reason that I attend open AA meetings and a Big Book meeting as well. It helps in understanding what we are dealing with and this helps our own recovery efforts so much.
Glad you are here with us Lou.
David
lin0606 said
Sep 25, 2005
My husband defines an alcoholic as "an egomaniac with an inferiority complex", I think that sums it up.
At AA events that I have gone to, I notice that the A's rarely talk about 'active' or 'still drinking'. The words they most often use are "the alcoholic still suffering". An active A is a person in pain - it's easy for us to forget this, when they are hurting us, but it's important not to forget.
This doesn't mean that we accept unacceptable behaviour. It means that we understand that none of it is done through malice, and very little of it is really directed at us.
Lou, I hope you understand when I say I'm glad you are suffering that pain - not because I want you to hurt (!), but because it is the only way to true healing. Only by facing the pain can we learn that we are strong enough to take it, and grow beyong it.
Diva said
Sep 26, 2005
Thank each of you for taking the time to reply. Each answer was thought provoking and interesting. And each response was truthful and to the point. I think the whole thing made for a great discussion. David, you are always so kind and flattering. I like that. And special thanks to you, Lou, for allowing yourself to be put on the spot, and handling it all so gracefully.
With much gratitude, Diva
dogscribe said
Sep 26, 2005
Thank you Diva for posing the question - because I have always wondered that too.
Thank you Uncle Lou and everyone for the responses - it has shed some light.
Jeannie said
Sep 27, 2005
UncleLou wrote:
When she came to see me she stiffened up when I hugged her and turned her head when I tried to kiss her. On the phone I’d say ‘I love you’ and hear silence back.
Your whole post was so honest and opened it brought tears to my eyes, but the part I quoted above smacked me in the face when I read it.
I am so guilty of that cruel behavior. Not because I don't love my husband, becasue I do, but because some insanity in me believes that if I hug him and tell him I love him, it is the same as saying it is okay for you to keep this up. That I am enabling him, by allowing him the best of all worlds, a loving wife and the doting parents who accomodate his drinking.
I have stepped away from him when he was ready to leave, because I did want a hug, but to allow it would be to accept an unacceptable situation. I have seen the hurt on his face and the anger, and cried after he left about it.
When he hangs up the phone and says I love you, instead of telling him I love him too, I have just said talk to you later, and hung up. Was I being bitchy or hurtful, sometimes, okay yes. But more because I don't know what to believe anymore, because I don't know where the lies stop and the truth begins, and maybe neither does he.
I'm rejecting the drinking, not him, but I guess I have not found a way to seperate the two.
Hi Diva,
As it happens, my employee was asking the same question of me about a man/boy she has a crush on. He treats her like a friend the majority of the time. The other night he got drunk said something which gave her some hope of deeper hidden feelings, and then he tried to seduce her.
There is a latin phrase: in vino veritas. It means, literally, there is truth in wine and figuratively, that people are more likely to say what they really feel under the influence of alcohol because their inhibitions are lowered.
My husband, the a, will only admit to being alcoholic when he is drunk. When he is sober he tells me that I am a straight-laced prude who thinks anyone drinking a glass of eggnog once a year at Christmas is alcoholic. He further avers there is no such thing as alcoholism.
But, people who are drunk say lots of things -- many of which make no sense. I think of it as their mind mis-firing as a result of being pickled. And since they lie when they are sober, what is to prevent them from lying when they are drunk?
Actions probably speak the loudest and lie the least. And really, do we want to base our reality, perceptions and actions on the utterings of someone drunk who cannot remember his confessions during sober moments?
Anyway, although I think we are putting a lot of pressure on Uncle Lou to speak for the entire population of alcoholics, I would also be interested in reading his response.
Hi Diva,
I too really love your posts as well as Ditto's. You both are always so thought provoking. Keep them coming the both of you!
I can tell you that my ex wife would also tell me the most hurtful "truths" when she was drunk. After she would sober up she would be remorseful for having said things in the manner she did when she was drunk, but would say that she only had the courage to talk about certain things when drunk.
Well, when all was said and done, after she got into recovery and decided to end our relationship, the real "truths" started to come out. She is a master manipulator and by her own admission a fabulous liar. And she lied when drunk as well, she was just more hurtful than when she was sober.
Most of her drunken "truths" were in actuality further attempts at manipulation. In the case of my A, her lies were designed to drive me away from her. I truly believe it was her attempt to cause me to end our marriage because she did not have the courage to do it herself. This lying did come to an end when she finally got into AA and began to work the program. It ultimately gave her the strenght to tell me the "real" truth. That she wanted out of our marriage. All of the other crap she would hurl at me when she was drunk was an attempt to get the desired results without the responsibility attached.
A lot of this is the "truth" as I see it of course. I remember asking myself those same questions too, where is the truth, drunk or sober? But ultimately, we have to look at the actions as Ditto states. And also, for me anyway, I have to keep the focus on myself and remember that I was dealing with the cunning disease of alcoholism. And try not to take things too personal. Detach from the disease and try to love the person.
I too hope that Lou has the opportunity to read this, and decides to answer.
God bless you all for being here.
Yours in Recovery,
David
For what it's worth, I think they are BOTH true... both the drunken rants AND the lovey talk... Addiction does a lot of damage, emotionally and otherwise... They live life on an emotional rollercoaster, and sometimes you get one end of the spectrum, and other times you get the opposite...
Just more reminder that we truly have to take care of ourselves, get ourselves healthy, and then we can handle whatever life throws at us...
Take care
Tom
WOW .. Talk about pressure. I am in no way qualified to speak for the entire population of alcoholics, sometimes my thoughts are so screwed up I don’t even feel qualified to speak for myself.
Diva, one thing I can tell you about myself, and a lot of other recovered alcoholics is; we are incapable of being honest with ourselves while still active. We are delusional. Do you know what that means? The effects of the disease are so powerful, the denial so strong, we will distort our own reality to support the rationalizations required to keep drinking. Read The Doctor’s Opinion chapter of the Big Book where it says “they cannot after a time differentiate the true from the false.“ Diva, you said your husband “…seems so self-assured, genuinely a guy who has things well under control…” Of course most of us are just like that when still active. Reading more of the Big Book pg. 73 “More than most people, the alcoholic leads a double life. He is very much the actor. To the outer world he presents his stage character. This is the one he likes his fellows to see. He wants to enjoy a certain reputation, but knows in his heart he doesn’t deserve it.” I know this fit me perfectly. I wanted everyone to think I had it all together but in my heart I knew something was empty inside. I never wanted to face that emptiness and I didn’t until I started to get sober. There may be glimpses of truth coming through when his guard is down while drinking. But it’s just as likely he will say things he doesn’t mean either. Why? The self loathing is so strong, he will deny it and place blame elsewhere. While not drunk he may be appalled at what he said while drunk, but his disease will find a way to rationalize his behavior, still blaming everyone else, or blaming the fact that he was drunk while he said it. The only truth that really comes out when he is drunk is that he is an alcoholic. His thoughts and behavior while either drinking or not drinking are not sane unless he recovers.
The path to recovery through the 12 steps is all about humility. I used to think that humility meant that I had to think I was ‘less than’ everyone else. Now I just substitute the words “self honesty.” To me it is finally looking at myself honestly, not only the bad parts but the good stuff too. I’m sober 2 years working the steps and I’m still struggling with it. If I look at myself objectively or listen to friends and family, I know I have a lot to offer. I’m a kind, patient, loyal friend. I’m talented. I can build just about anything with my hands I want. I do carpentry, electrical work, plumbing. I’m an excellent cook. I had a successful engineering career taking on and successfully completing complicated projects no one else in the company could even conceive of. I have a US Patent in my name. I have artistic talent. I designed and built my own 4000 sq ft Victorian home. People tell me I still have a lot of untapped potential. Inside that exterior, there was nothing. I was a shell of a human. Once my job was gone (I lost all interest and was asked to resign) I checked myself into rehab. What did I have left? My wife said to me ‘you’re a jerk’ when she dropped me off at the rehab. When she came to see me she stiffened up when I hugged her and turned her head when I tried to kiss her. On the phone I’d say ‘I love you’ and hear silence back. I’d say it again and hear back ‘I heard you.’
OK now, lets have a look. Pain relief from alcohol gone, job of 19 years gone, rejected by wife. All the stuff I used to prop me up, gone. What’s left? Complete and utter insecurity as a human being. Looking at all the thoughts and memories of a forgotten child hood of zero self esteem, depression, unhappiness, and fear of being who I am. The resurfacing of all those feelings of inadequacy were excruciating. All the more so because of the rejection of my wife while I’m going through all this. It just reinforced everything I negative I thought about myself as a person. I’m in tears as I’m writing this, that’s how painful this whole thing was. There were so many negative childhood feelings, buried beneath layers of surface achievement and numbed by alcohol, to sort through. As the old wounds were opened for cleaning, I felt like my wife was there to poke them and pour salt in them. Her comment to me to ‘get a job or get a lawyer’ as my unemployment was running out did wonders for my recovery and my desire to be closer to her. Is that all I am to you is my ability to earn money? A year into sobriety, I went to my son's 8th grade back-to-school night. Left the school and cried on the way home from all the painful memories that came back from being that age and hating who I was. I could keep going, but I think you get the idea. This is my own experience, of course, I don’t know how my story applies to anyone you know.
I can talk to other alcoholics about this stuff and they all seem to understand. ‘Earth people’ don’t seem to get it. This has been a tough road for me these past 2 years but I hope I’m coming out of this a stronger, more compassionate person. I still have a lot of growing up to do. At least I have found some humility, something I never had before; I had a very distorted view of who I was. I really believe most active alcoholics suffer from lack of humility. That is why the 12 steps are based on honesty with ourselves, with others and with God.
Look at it this way. The disease distorts the alcoholic’s thinking to create the insane rationalizations about his drinking. My disease wants me dead, so of course I became a master manipulator. When active, just because I wasn’t drinking didn’t mean I was thinking sanely, regardless of my good intentions. If an alcoholic, drinking or not, has not attained the level of humility to see this, he cannot be honest with himself. If he cannot be honest with himself, how can he possible be honest in his interaction with others, regardless of his intentions. I don’t think there is any black or white as to when an alcoholic’s true feeling come out drunk or not. It’s all a mess in his own head until he recovers. I hope this sheds some light on some of this insanity you are all dealing with.
Lou
-- Edited by UncleLou at 14:44, 2005-09-25
Hey Lou - I think we, as Al-Anons, also struggle with that whole "honesty" thing as well, and you A's certainly don't have the market cornered on delusional, lol.
I don't know of anyone who says they consider themselves "dishonest", but I have learned more about myself, and more about truth and self-honesty, in the last ten years, than I could ever have imagined... I think we all are guilty at times, of dishonesty - both externally and internally.
Tom
((((((((((((((UncleLou)))))))))))
Thank you so much. You are a good man my friend. I am proud of the way you are dealing with your life. God has something better in store for you my friend.
I appreciate so much hearing your point of view, and this is one reason that I attend open AA meetings and a Big Book meeting as well. It helps in understanding what we are dealing with and this helps our own recovery efforts so much.
Glad you are here with us Lou.
David
Thank you Diva for posing the question - because I have always wondered that too.
Thank you Uncle Lou and everyone for the responses - it has shed some light.