It is terrible to love someone incapable of loving you back. I think this is the time to detach with love. If anyway possible I would find another place to live or kindly ask her to move out and leave the kids.. It is so sad when the kids are in the middle of everything. I would also recommend counseling for the kids. I just started taking my kids and will continue. I hope things get better for you. Tammy ( just my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest )

Pardon me for being so frank, but what the hell are you doing living in the same house.... I understand that there are kids involved, but to subject yourself and children to the relationship that your wife carries on right in front of you is absolutely untolerable. You and your children deserve much better than that.... Furthermore, it is obvious that you are worried about your children and I'll share a bit of advice that after 9 years of extensive counseling (sometimes 3-4 days per week) both individual and with my children, it became clear and was even said to me by multiple people-- counselors, both professionally and school, doctors (because my daughter has a medical condition) that sometimes it is better to have ONE strong parent who can guide you to do well for yourself than it is to have two parents, in which one is so sick that it affects the family mentally, emotionally and physically. Bottom line, if the relationship you share with ANYONE interferes with your ability to have a peaceful life with God as your primary focus and separates you from building upon that relationship and strengthening it, I believe it is NOT a relationship that God intends to be forever--- God wants us to be equally yoked in order to glorify Him-- that's IT. Just think of all the energy that you are using in this relationship and if you could take all that energy and put it elsewhere the difference your life could represent for yourself or others. I learned that the hard way also-- I put all my energy into a relationship that was going no where because of my ex-husband and later ex-boyfriends alcoholism and nothing was being accomplished for myself or children-- we were stuck. In turn, I realized this and ended all these unhealthy relationships with the realization that if my children were to be OKAY, that the ONLY way that would happen is by influence of me, especially since their father is an alcoholic and abuser. Since, I pursued my college education, in which some days I feel as if I'll never get through to the end-- my graduation. But what keeps me going is the influence it shows my children in that whatever is occuring in your life, you have the ability to do what you MUST for yourself to be healthy and live a peaceful, stable life AND pursue your dreams under any circumstance. The reward of this is seeing my children differently, in that how hard they try and also make their own choices and decisions. One thing we are often taught NOT to do when we do not have confidence or self-esteen as a result often of being a child in an unhealthy relationship. Granted, my daughter, going through her teenage decisions with the unhealthy encouragement by her father is difficult and I had to let her go live with him finally. However, what I learned by this is that I can have complete peace within myself because I did ALL I can do to guide and direct them, as well as influence them to make better choices and decisions. When I took the focus completely off this "other" life I had, my life and circumstances turned around and the sky was the limit. As long as we remained focused on the person in our life who is unhealthy and continue to not make a choice that is right for us, we remain STUCK.... Really, we remain in our comfort zone because we've never experienced anything else. Good can be scary when you are not used to it-- I've been there too. It can actually be so scary that you can have a breakdown just from the good occuring-- like I said, I've been there. However, it is all a matter of reconditioning and turning around the learned behavior that was typically a result of how we grew up and then carrying it into our adult relationships--- whether business or personal. I'm happy to say I only have 7 classes left to receive my undergraduate degree in Technical Management and then will be pursuing courses in Theology and Philosophy... My son has graduated 8th grade with Presidential awards and is now a freshman in college AND, although my daughter is struggling emotionally, physically (with her medical condition) and mentally, she has a foundation of all the skills she learned during 9 years of her life (1/2 of her life so far). Those skills and awarenesses will ALWAYS be a part of her and I'm so glad I stayed with counseling for her for all of these years. Someone told me that even though it doesn't appear that my children, or her at least is not thinking clearly, what she has learned is inside her and when she is in trouble or faced with some difficult circumstances--- she will ALWAYS have that to fall back on. Nobody can take that away from her. Well, I suppose I wrote enough, but hope it offered some insight in allowing you to determine what it is that YOU need for yourself and children. Just give it to God-- He will guide you AND when He does, you will know because peace will follow. One last thing-- you've come a LONG way yourself with self-analysis. God intends a better life for you, as He has blessed you with that insight to humble yourself and admit your faults and learn from them. In turn, He wants to lead you forward now-- the decision you make should be based on where you've come from and where you know God wants you to go to lead a life that ONLY He wants for you. Don't give that up or turn back..... not many can conquer that and be where you are. Take Care.

-- Edited by sanddie at 07:21, 2005-09-21

Lou, I have a question for you: Are you convinced that you had a part in making her this way? Did your alcoholism affect the family? Of course it did. But I don't think that you should justify her behavior because of your disease. It sounds to me that she had a lot baggage when she came into this marriage. My A's ex use to beat him. Did his drinking affect the kids and her? Sure, you know that. But it didn't make her an abuser! She came into that marriage with the baggage from her own years. The fact that she use to sleep with other guys, while she was still sleeping with him and still married was her choice. That's morals, and upbringing, and values. She's still that way now that they are divorced! The same way with yours. If her behavior was a reaction to your drinking, then doesn't it follow that when you got sober, the actions would have stopped? Does that make sense? You have worked so hard on your sobriety. You're doing what you should be. (I can only hope my A will follow in your footsteps.) You deserve to be in a place that is free from all this crap she puts you through. Find a place of your own where you're children can come and be away from their mother. They deserve a safe haven too. It'll make all of you stronger in the long run. Listen to your HP. He's trying to tell you it's time to move on, and build a life for you and your children. You can do this. Look how far you have come. Live strong, Karilynn

It looks to me like you have two choices here - you can either accept that your wife has different ideas of child raising than yours, but that she is basically a loving mother, or you can decide that she is NOT a good mother, and do what is necessary to have her declared unfit so that she doesn't have access to the children. What you can't do, sorry, is make her parent the way you want her to. If you feel that the children would benefit from some therapy, then you get them into it. You don't need her permission, unless there is something built into your custody agreement that says you do. If you do have to take this back to court, no judge would ever say "No, sorry, you can't give these children some counselling", (and your wife knows it) so you're OK there. I wish I could find a delicate way to say this, because I know you are suffering, but it looks from here like YOU are the one who is putting the kids in the middle. Was your son upset last week because the boyfriend was there (watching TV with his kid, if I remember correctly) or because he knew YOU would be upset? It seems that as long as you are in the house, and your wife knows that you will be home, she will continue to let her side of the parenting agreement slide. I mean, she knows that if the place catches fire, or one of the kids is seriously hurt, you won't sit up in your room refusing to help, just because it not your night. She knows that as long as you are there, she does not really need to worry about it. You can either accept this, if you think it would be best for your kids, or, again, you can change your living arrangements. You can't change her behaviour. This whole arrangement you have is drawing out the pain of your divorce to horrible proportions, like chopping off your arm one inch a day. You guys have split, it's time to start healing, not to continue to torture one another. So much of the day to day frustration you are feeling is probably due to having everything she does in your face, there is no easy way to detach, to let her go. Your kids are constantly in the middle. For their sakes,you need to resolve this, stop worrying about who is right, and get on with your life. Your sobriety and serenity are the important things here, even more than the way the kids are dealing with things. If you are feeling serene, then you can be the good example to them, you can provide the stability they so badly need. If you are always tied up in a knot about what your wife is doing, they don't have a parent to turn to.

sanddie wrote:

---

Bottom line, if the relationship you share with ANYONE interferes with your ability to have a peaceful life with God as your primary focus and separates you from building upon that relationship and strengthening it, I believe it is NOT a relationship that God intends to be forever--- God wants us to be equally yoked in order to glorify Him-- that's IT. Just think of all the energy that you are using in this relationship and if you could take all that energy and put it elsewhere the difference your life could represent for yourself or others.

---

Wow...a lot of that hit home for me! It never ceases to amaze me what we can learn by other's experiences.

-- Edited by sg at 12:04, 2005-09-21

Thank you all for your honest feedback. I guess I have come a long way. I actually can listen to things about me that I really don't want to hear. In the past I don't think I would even bring up a topic which might force me to really look at myself honestly. I'm still not 100% comfortable with it, but I can actually listen to honest, critical feedback about myself without my defense mechanisms of denial, argument, and mimimization. I truly do want recovery and I realize that although the path there is worthwhile, it can be excruciatingly painful along the way. Especially for someone as self centered and immature as me. I'm glad I found this site to get this type honest, unbiased, feedback. Since a lot of you have been there, I know I can't bullsh*t anyone here. This is the closest thing I can think of to finding the presence of God online. I really mean that.

Thanks again

Lou

((((((((unclelou)))))) Just wanted to give ya hug :) Damn, this stuff is hard isn't it? To see it for what it really is w/o our years of denial and minimization in the way. To me it feels like sanding layers and layers of paint off of a 100 year old wall....by hand...lol Have you been to the chatroom Lou? There are meetings at 9a and 9p Eastern time, and open chat in between. Would love to see you there. Christy