I was reading some posts and it occured to me that as much as we are able to detach when we are involved in unhealthy relationships, we also choose to deny our needs.  When we say we detach... does that solve the problem we feel inside of wanting our husband, wives, significant others to love us as we NEED to be loved in our relationship when they are alcoholics and incapable of loving us?     All this time and energy spend loving someone who truly is unresponsive to it can be given to children who are abused or suffering and REALLY want someone to love them or another human being who is dying and grateful for the love they get from others to help them through to the end.  Homeless people who have NOTHING, yet have more hearts than most A's.  

I will NEVER understand the concept of detaching---   Detach = Denial of what our feelings are and how we hurt and what it is that WE NEED.  Can anyone REALLY detach, yet come together with their A as time and the illness progresses, pushed all those feelings aside as if they don't exist and have a complete feeling of serenity and peace lying next to him/her, or while making love (having sex), whatever one chooses to call it.  Perhaps I'm being selfish, but I've worked VERY hard at it.  haha  

I believe that as long as we continue to live in an unhealthy relationship that our lives are put on hold for other possibilities that God has for us during our lifetime.   We should take our situations and consider them lessons and move on.  If we never move on....  then we never grow and well, remain in Alanon or AA the rest of our lives.  Same story, same situation, nothing changes.  Hmmm, Satans BEST defense at keeping us away from God because we are so consumed with our world that our eyes are closed to what God has to offer for us. 

We rely on support groups instead of changing our lives by making different choices and choosing healthier people in our lives.   But why do we do that?  Why do we remain STUCK in the cycle of loving people who keep us in the same frame of mind our entire live, not open to change and just adapting our lives to accommodate theirs.....

I just needed to vent that cause I'm disgusted.  I broke up with my A in January and have talked with others who have come through similar dysfunctional relationships who broke that cycle and one thing is for certain.....  I WILL do all I can to break the cycle too because I don't want to live my entire life working on detaching-- I would MUCH RATHER be loved in a healthy relationship and can work on my life receiving that love as well.

Take Care!

Thanks for the thought provoking post, sandie.  I disagree with a statement.

"We rely on support groups instead of changing our lives by making different choices and choosing healthier people in our lives. "

In my case i DID rely on support groups but at the same time I changed my life, made healthier choices and chose healthier people in my life. I dont thi k it has to be one or the other. I think it can be BOTH.  For myself i chose to STAY with my alcoholic and I made the best of it. My recovery group oferedn me support. They held me up until I could stand alone. They loved me until i was able to love myself and love others. Along the way I learned to take care of ME. I'm still with "him" and I'm not sorry i stayed. I am certain if it were not for my AlAnon meetings i would not still be married.

I do understand your thoughts on detachment. I jsut learned to not let HIS STUFF make me crazy. I learned when things were not my business..to stay out of whatever it was. I learned to not get sucked into the craziness of this disease.

Thanks for the post!

LIN

You bet we do ! I chose to stay in my marriage for many reasons most of them selfish, I lived well money was not a problem for us husband was and is a proffessional ,and I simply wasn't prepared to leave half of it behind .  I found new friends here and made alife for myself , As I  got happier my husb got sicker , somehow thats what detachment does. I learned to respect him again and suprise suprise love him again.

Al-Anon program has been a way of life for me for 20 yrs now and I wouln't trade a day of it for anything.  This program has improved every relationship I have. It has given me a God that I do understand and trust today. Thanks to this program  I am a bettter mother , daughter ,friend and wife today.  I stay to give back what I have recieved here ,they tell me its the only way i get to keep what I found.

Al-Anon is a program for living "MY" and I do plan on living along time yet and I want to get the most out of every day I have left ,this program provides me with the tools to do just that. My husb is 15 yrs sober and life has improved 300 % thats why  I do depend on my 12 step program to continue to give me alife I never dreamed possible.  Could I have a good life with out going to another meeting? probably but why would I want to deprive myself of something that gave me  way more than I came looking for ? All I wanted was for him to quit drinking The God of my understanding had way bigger plans. I hope u keep commin back you just never know .!!!!!!

Louise

sanddie wrote:

---

Why do we remain STUCK in the cycle of loving people who keep us in the same frame of mind our entire live, not open to change and just adapting our lives to accommodate theirs.....

---

As one who has chosen to stay with her alcoholic husband, I'd like to respond to your post.  It seems you are assuming that those of us who choose to stay are not learning anything.  Have I adapted my life to accomodate him? Hmmm.  I know my "frame of mind" is nothing like it was prior to Al-Anon and learning what this disease of alcoholism is all about.  I know the only change I saw in myself prior to Al-Anon was one of becoming sicker and sicker as I walked on eggshells trying to accommodate his moods, etc. 

Since coming to Al-Anon, I have learned that my life does NOT have to revolve around his moods.  I have learned about personal boundaries and respecting myself enough so that I don't just mindlessly react to what he says or does.  As I learned and applied the Al-Anon tools in my life, I began to see changes not just in myself, but within my whole family.  I have a stepdaughter who came to live with us just prior to my beginning Al-Anon.  She grew up in this insanity (both parents being alcoholic).  She had all the behaviors herself even though she doesn't drink.  As I "grew" in Al-Anon, she began to see the changes.  She began to read some of the literature.  I overheard her one day on the phone to her younger sister (who still lives with mom) using "program talk" in how to deal with living with mom.  I see her setting her own personal boundaries with how she interacts with her dad and mom.  Amazing growth.  She used to get drawn into all the drama, now she chooses to detach from the drama and focus on what can be changed.  She is now able to stand up for herself, to say "I don't need to be in the middle of this mom, I'll talk with you later" and gently hang the phone up.  This is a big change for a young woman who used to sit and listen to the spewing verbal abuse and then hang the phone up crying and distraught.  She has learned it is still possible to love her mother, to have boundaries, to walk away from what she doesn't need to be involved in, and to go on with her life.  Our children are learning this is a disease and that they don't have to allow it to infest their own life, that they have choices as to what kind of people they want to be, that they can control their own feelings and thoughts and actions. 

As for the personal side of my relationship with my husband.... I grew up in a home where we attended church 3 times a week.  I am very familiar with the passage regarding "unevenly yoked" and was always taught to look for a mate who had the same beliefs/morals/values as I do.  I married twice disregarding that.  I ended up divorced twice also.  *smile*  I met my current husband, and the one thing that really attracted me was his value system.  As the years passed, I lost sight of some things as I was sucked into this disease myself.  Then came Al-Anon.  The "veil" was slowly removed from my eyes.  What I see now is a man suffering, a man who grew up in an alcoholic home with unspeakable abuse, a man who also had two previous spouses who cheated on him, a man who never knew what unconditional love was except for the unconditional love he holds for his children.  A man who wants his life to be different, to be better.  A man who has a daily struggle against Satan's machinations.  I stand at his side in this struggle.  I encourage and support him in learning and growing, in seeing his past for what it was and in seeing what today is and what tomorrow can be.  As I do this, we have grown closer, we both are learning about love.  I'm doing things for myself and he is supporting me in that also.  We are laughing and giggling together once more.

I could have just walked away, but what would I have learned in the process?  What would he have learned?  True, in some situations it is best to leave - one can't learn anything if their physical life is threatened.  That was and is not my situation.  You know, the one thought that comes to my mind is this: Jesus did not walk away from those afflicted, to seek just the company of whole and healthy people.  He taught love by reaching out to everyone and trying to show them how life could be.  I'm not Jesus, I'm nowhere near being perfect.  I'd like to strive to follow his example though and be a loving person.  I am also reminded of the passage of 1 Corinthians 7:12-16.  *smile* 

Your friend in Recovery,

Kis

I felt the need to reply and after much reflection feel the ablility to get the words out.

I do not feel that detachment is denial. Denial is ignorign that there is a problem, detachment is doing what you need to do to not participate in the problem. My "A" went out and used last night, he did what "A"s do. I have no control over that, so I let it go. I felt at peace about my part in it.

I am forever grateful for my "A" because he is why I found alanon, but I needed it long before I met him. I would not be the same person if it wasn't for alanon, but I would still be the girl who needed alanon with or without my "A". He helped me find the help I needed. And in this I found the family I always wanted.

I have moved on, but I haven't left my "A". And I have met some wonderful people for example. My sponsor just celebrated her 20th "birthday" in alanon a few months ago. She plans on being in alanon until she can no longer attend (in many, many years). If there were not people with years  in recvoery, who would sponsor the new people? Who would be there to uphold the traditions? I for one plan on celebrating my 20th birthday in alanon, and many more after that, that is a long way away thnough because now I only have four. But my four years of experience are needed to help the new comer, and I am learning in alanon everyday. I am so glad that there is not a time limit on alanon, or AA for that matter.

I could go on and on, I really could , but I will stop now.

Much Love,

Hi Sandie,

Thanks for another thought provoking post!

All of those who have responded as well!  You are all such awesome people!!!!

I too find no way to connect the concept of detachment with being in denial, unless it is an "unenlightened" pre-alanon type of detachment, just pretending whatever is really is not.  And to me that is denial itself.  And not detachment.  Sheese, I doubt if that makes sense....he he...but it is perfectly clear over here in my head!!!!

As to relying on support groups instead of changing our lives....I can only speak for myself....my life, since I started "relying" on my support groups (MIP and two local alanon groups) is in a constant state of change and growth now.  I am one who is no longer with my A either, but not by my choice in this case.  And right now today, I can honestly say, I dont think that if I could wave my magic wand and bring my ex back home and be married to her again....well....it might be tempting sometimes....but I think I would rather break that wand over my knee.  Because with the help of this program, who put me in touch with my HP whom I call God, and with the support of the people in this wonderful God inspired program, I am no longer that person.  That codependent little yes man, who did everything in his power to make everyone but myself happy.  No thanks, I'll pass.

As to staying in al-anon now, why should I right?  My A is gone....I gotta be cured by now!  (People have actually told me that )  I was listening to a member share about thier daughter who is bipolar and other things, who has medication they are supposed to take.  When the medicine is taken, the person functions well.  Is able to hold a job, help raise children and be productive.  Yet, for some reason, this person always gets to thinking doesnt need the medicine anymore and stops taking it.  Wham, back out on the streets, jobless.

Al-anon is my medicine.  And I know it when I miss some meetings.  I start going downhill in a hurry.  But let me tell you why I think that is for me......  My HP is there with me at every one of those alanon meetings.  And I feel His presence there more than anywhere else, including the church that I attend weekly services at.  I hear Him speak to me through the people who share and in the literature I read.  You bet I want to go there!!!  I miss Him when I don't go!

And its those Demons sent by Satan that whisper in my ear daily, "Hey Dave, you don't need to keep going to church.  You dont need to make that long drive to your al-anon meetings, she's gone and your all better now, buddy!" 

I'm not buying what he's selling!!!!!  I am sooooo grateful for this program!!

And grateful to you Sandie and the rest of you wonderful people, for sharing your thoughts with us, and making me THINK. 

Love you all!

Yours in Recovery,

David

Well...... I only one thing to say--  you all are awesome.  :)   Reading your posts brought tears to my eyes, it really did because I guess I'm struggling in my life to have any sanity with people around me that are close-- particularly family though.  As you all, I've gotten my support from resources such as Alanon, Church, friends who hold much respect for me and others as well.  Much more than of my family.  I've made some tough decisions because I wanted my career, a better life for my children and learned that sometimes making those tough decisions, thinking that your children will have that better life does not happen because they choose differently. 

I'll be honest--   I am the FIRST person to want to help others, as that is why I have often considered even helping inmates in prison with spiritual counseling.  However, when it comes to my personal life having been in an abusive relationship and then with an Alcoholic after having come from so much emotional, sexual, and psychological abuse as a child, it has been draining.  I find that I need time alone to have peace-- the quiet allows me to connect with God and gain spiritual strength.  Most of you mentioned that you are able to live your lives with A's for your selves and do what it is that makes you happy.  Interestingly enough, I had tried that.. but discovered that I didn't want to make plans without my significant other.  Sure, I have friends and am often invited to do things and take the opportunity, but to live a life with someone who is unresponsive to your needs was too much for me to handle.  I give all of you so much credit for going through that-- Honestly, I couldn't do it and not certain if I'd ever have the strength to do it any longer.  I suppose that is what happens when you've lived you're entire 36 years of life with constant abuse. 

Everyone tells me how strong I am and how much I've gotten through, how far I've come, yet I continue to feel weaker each day.  I make a few steps forward and then several back.  The worst of it is that I wanted a better life for my children, I wanted to provide them with a college education and help them financially as much as I could so they didn't have to worry about the debt.  Yet, somehow-- my choice to give them a life that is stable, balanced and focused on having an education has not been successful.  It's difficult to succeed when you have to watch your children suffer...   It's difficult particularly when my success was all an effort to show my children that whatever they are faced with, they should never give up their dreams and goals for their life-- just keep going.  However, the influence I've had has failed to help my daughter and so all I can do is just sit here and watch-- too weak to fight any longer so now she is at her Dad's.  It is like allowing an addict to live in a drug house.....  

Anyway, I guess I just don't understand sometimes how you all have strength like you do.  Sure, I go to the gym, I talk to God, as He is first in my life always and has provided me with so much to be thankful for, yet my strength is diminished.  If I go out on occasion, I really have fun, but then for 2-3 days I'm wiped out with no energy, feeling exhausted, headache and just physically ill.  The only thing I can contribute that too is overall strength I cannot seem to gain.    But then again....   my life consists of work, school, doctors, and counselors-- that's it.  On occasion, talking with friends-- but I think I'm getting stir crazy or something.  I dunno.  

Well, I've written quite enough-- Thank you all for sharing.  You are amazing and I wish I had half the strength that most of you do to be able to tolerate as you all do.  I am just so tired of being strong for everyone else.  :)

(((((((((((((Sanddie))))))))))))))),

Thank you for your second post, as well as your first. You have been through alot from what I read. I think the fact that you have gone through all that and still have the hope for a better tomorrow, makes you strong in my eyes.

In your post you spoke of obligations that you have. What do you do for fun? What do you do to take care of you. Even if the only people you give to our your children, you still need to stop to refresh your cup everyonce in a while. I started going out wiht the girls once a month. May not sound like much, but i alos attend alanon meetings f2f. Maybe after a meeting we go grab a cup of coffee, or whatever. Just things that are completely for me. I always feel better after words. I felt guilty the first time, but then I saw how I really needed it. When I went out with some friends and someone said somethig really funny, and I let out a belly laugh, tears, could hardly breathe, face turning red, when i laughed like that, I thought when was the last time I laughed like that and couldn't answer, I knew I needed the time for me.

Keep coming back, remember when you feel weak, we are here for you to lean on.

Much Love,

sanddie,

I think I understand what you are saying, I feel the same way too sometimes.  I'm still angry at myself for being codependent in the first place.  And what you mean about us revolving around them, still...  but I guess it's  a "wake up call" from god to present  us w/ the opportunity to deal with our codependency issues now ~ so that we can be healthy, happy, serene & peaceful.

Surely I am sick! Why would I love someone else that is unlovable or incapable of loving & just turn it on myself & actually love myself.  Simply focusing on myself, is really a challenge for me.  It's as though, I feel guilty with the concept of putting myself first (emotionally) although, of course logically I realize, if you don't love yourself first, blah blah.

I'm hurt & mad at myself for finding this program, having it for a year (20 yrs ago) & then losing it alltogether.  Thinking I didn't need it anymore, that I got it.  Obviously, that is incorrect!  It is becoming more & more clear to me, as I struggle with putting myself first, trying to allow myself to be a little bit selfish.

There is one clear thing I have learned over the years & that is if, I don't tackle any problem head on - god sends me a new, exponentially 'greater' problem, so basically it just gets worse, until we learn from it.  Like god is desperately trying to "psychologically" bash our brains in, saying to us, "are you getting it yet?"

All I know is, alanon is about me learning not to dwell on others, to be there/here for myself.  I'll be fine, if I end up being alone for the rest of my life.  I do not want to be with another alchoholic or addict.  I do deserve real, true pure innocent love.  I deserve more & I aim to get it.  We all deserve the very best! 

This disease is so painful, robbing us of our lives.  I too, lack the basic joy for life, I am so tired.  I feel like I could just sleep for weeks.  I am emotionally exhausted. 

Hang in there baby, I'm hangin' in to.  Good days & bad days, at least the tiniest bit of hope for me, is really big progress.  In a way, I would just love not to worry, not to care about anything.  God must have something really special in store for us, for us to have to experience so much pain - it ought to be equally as divine & fantastic to counter/compl;iment  all of the horror we have had to endure.

I don't want to have to defend myself, I just want to be honest.  Well, I want to be understood, I think some do understand here, truly, it's a Blessing!