This is a reply to another post on this borad and I thought I'd share it with everyone because this is something I've often thought about....  After all, who are we to say what is right or wrong for another person?  Just because one hits bottom doesn't mean that it is not what God intends to happen in their life.  God allows things to happen for a purpose so what I am continuing to learn is that the ONLY person I need to work on is myself and that perhaps when conflict arises in which a person (such as an alcoholic) is not compatible with me or me him, then should we really be together after all...   Here is the post....

 

We can love and care for people, yet allow them to be who they are..   After all, isn't it quite possible that an alcoholic can meet someone important in their life that is also an alcoholic and live happily ever after.  As crazy as this may sound, I've seen it-- two people living together their entire lives drink after drink from morning til night, yet they get along and have no problems together.  Perhaps, in situations where we feel so much resistance from an alcoholic to become healthier, it has more to do with us taking ourselves out of their lives so that they can be with someone who can relate to them and vice-versa.  As difficult as it is to admit, although we feel the alcoholic has the problem, the alcoholic sees us to have a problem also--  Bottom line, if a person can relate to another person despite their character flaws then perhaps there isn't a problem at all.   I learned this the hard way and rather than continue to tell myself that his alcoholism was not right, I realized that I was not right for considering his and my relationship was one that should exist as it had been, ultimately keeping him from living the life that he chooses and creating a barrier between us.  It was time for me to move on so that he could move on....   AND the best part about it is that having recognized this I realized how much I truly, deeply love him.  Enough to let him go and discover what it is that he needs to be truly happy,.even if that means without me.  After all, he/she (the alcoholic) has their lifestyle and we have ours, isn't that true?  Perhaps, this isn't necessarily about either of us, but rather about who we are or are NOT compatible with....

Take Care!

Hi Sanddie, I don't assume to know who is right and who is wrong. That is not for me to decide. But one thing I feel fairly sure of: God doesn't "let things happen for a reason." God does not send cancer, alcoholism, incest, murder, and all manner of other terrible things. Not even for a reason. God doesn't, for a reason, "let" some of his people live in squalor while he "lets" others prosper and live in majestic surroundings. When bad things happen, we ask God to help us, but we do not hold Him accountable for those bad situations which have occurred. To do so would mean that we have a vindictive God who derives some kick out of torturing His children. Somehow I do not hear the clash of a mighty sword and God saying something like, "There! I have given you cancer...for a REASON! Now deal with it and try to guess what the reason is!" Could He keep bad things from happening? Of course. But I believe He allows us, as humans, to be. Some religions believe that the more we suffer on Earth, the higher the plane of paradise we achieve in the hereafter. Another way of explaining why unfortunate things happen. Hmmmm...could be, but I doubt it. It all makes for an interesting dissertation, and could be discussed forever. I shall not address the rest of your post. I had only one point to make. Take care, Diva

Sanddie,

Your post made me think, it is something I have been thinking a lot about.

My life centers around my children and our life as a family. My husband centers his life around his parents and considers them to be his family first and foremost.

My idea of fun is playing with the kids, going on an outing with them, watching them play a sport or be in a concert, helping them with their homework, talking to them, just being with them. For quiet I enjoy reading, gardening and taking walks on the beach or in the woods.

My husband likes going to bars, playing pool and getting drunk, for quiet he enjoys watching sitcoms with his beer close by.

When He rants about quitting he goes on about how he loves his drinking and loves his parents. He also says he loves the kids and I but it is always an afterthought, like he remembers he is supposed to.

Maybe we are not supposed to be together. Maybe I am suppsed to be with the kids and he is supposed to either wither away and die with Mommy and Daddy or find some other drunk who he can happily drink with until his liver explodes.

Right or wrong we have six children who he helped create. Right or wrong those children are being raised without the father they love. Right or wrong, he is ln the process of losing his job which helps support those children. Right or wrong his liver is beginning to fail. Right or wrong I do love him and want him to be happy, but how can that be when he is dead?

I do not believe that God is cruel enought to give someone six extrordinary children and not want them to raise them, and be with them. I know our time on this earth is short, but I do believe we all have a purpose in that time. When it is over we will have touched lives and left something behind. I cannot believe that God wants my husbands legacy to be empty beer cans.

                              Love Jeannie

You indicated in the post that "God does not send cancer, alcoholism, incest, murder, and all manner of other terrible things. Not even for a reason. God doesn't, for a reason, "let" some of his people live in squalor while he "lets" others prosper and live in majestic surroundings".  Perhaps you misunderstood my post, as I did not say that God does this, but rather that God allows things to happen for a purpose.  A purpose MUCH greater than myself or anyone would ever be capable of understanding.  A purpose that glorifies Him, as it's not about you nor me or anyone else.   God does take our circumstances and uses them in ways that only He understands to assist in developing us to be who He wants us to be....  I do have focus on eternity and that is why I can make choices when they are unhealthy as painful as they might be to choose another direction because I trust Him completely.  My life is not about the world here or earthly gains, but rather what God intends of me when my short journey to Him is complete.  This brings me internal peace and the ability to allow others to be who they are, even if the pain of having to let them be with someone else who is more accepting of their lifestyle is a consequence of that....   Ultimately, I know that the choice I make to do so when it is right will bring me peace and a closer relationship with God. 

I have learned one most important lesson from developing my relationship with God (As Alanon refers to their HP)  That the person I want to be is someone who can love ANYONE and let them go if necessary so that they can live a life that brings them peace.  If that means me accepting the reality that the person I am with might be happier living with someone else who may also have addictions, then that is what I MUST do... It's not up to me at all to say that the alcoholic is right or wrong, but it is up to me to come to terms with the fact that we are NOT compatible, move on and allow the alcoholic to move on.  After all, in most cases with an alcoholic, aren't we always made to feel as if they aren't in the relationship?  That being the case, then why not allow the alcoholic to truly live the life they wish?   Because the alcoholic says their sorry or loves us-- or  because we love them?   We all know the deception that comes along with alcoholism so why cause pain to someone who really doesn't know the concept of being sorry and just allow them to live with someone else who they wouldn't even have to apologize too...

I guess the main point I'm trying to make here is that we have NO control over the outcome of anyone's life..   Whatever anyone does to someone, it is that persons response that makes them who they are.  If we believe that we are loving our addictive partners because they NEED us to love them in order to survive, then it would seem to me that we are playing God.  There is ONLY 1 relationship that is most important and that is the relationship with God (our HP) and ANYTHING that comes between that is primarily focused on earthly gain, rather than eternity.   Of course, we can love our addictive or abusive partners, but there comes a point that EVERYONE is held accountable for their actions to God.   

Many questions I ask myself are these:

Are we loving our addictive partners hoping for anything in return, like their recovery some day?  OR are we loving our addictive partners accepting that they will ALWAYS be the way they are and that this is the permanent life we choose....   If we say we are truly loving our addictive partner just as he/she is and NEVER have a thought of what we will get from it in return, then we are truly blessed because that is how it should be, as God loves us.  However, how many of us actually do that?   Are we supposed to tolerate behaviors because these addictive people are our childrens mother/father?  Or are we supposed to teach our children that NOTHING OR NO ONE is more important than their relationship with their REAL Father...     Wouldn't anything else be a form of idolization? 

In conclusion, I'd like to close with this passage that sums everything up that I just expressed....  Only the truth is what counts, nothing else--

"I came to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to receive, and how distressed I am until it is over! Do you suppose that I came to bring peace to the world? No, not peace, but division. From now on a family of five will be divided, three against two and two against three. Fathers will be against their sons, and sons against their fathers; mothers will be against their daughters, and daughters against their mothers; mothers-in-law will be against their daughters-in-law, and daughters-in-law against their mothers-in-law."   Luke 12:49-52

 

-- Edited by sanddie at 20:09, 2005-06-23

Hi,

 I read your post and the others wasnt sure exactly what to say.But i did see this once gain as i left my a cause i loved him so much.He met someone at aa and he moved in with her and  then married her.She was also a old neighbor of years ago.

I was angry hurt and all the pain you can have even though I left him ha.They got a house built and have gone on with his life.I hear he is happy and life is ownderful fori allowed it to spend me off in hurt pain and anger so again I am letting go of him in my heart knwing he is better off without me he is happy and it cant be with me.

Does it make him right and me wrong no it is just another life affected from the disease.Thanks your post help me let go of him again. and thankful he is happy married and sober.

I believe it would be quite easy for 2 drinkers to convince themselves they are happy with their lives and themselves, but I don't believe it. 

And I don't believe hp meant for anyone to live life like this. I don't believe it for a minute.  Yes, people choose different lifestyles and we need to be tolerant and not make choices for other people. 

I don't have all that many good memories of growing up acoa.   I am still trying to unlearn unhealthy habbits and develop positive ones.    When my a husband was active,  I felt like I was living with a dead person.    A dead person who was slowly dying in front of me and our children.   Along with the neglect and verbal abuse I had to learn to detach from.

Today I am grateful for his sobriety and for our 2nd chance together.

Thank you Sanddie...I'm still digesting what you wrote, but there's a message there that seems meant just for me...accepting that I must love without the expectation that he will ever change.  That's so much what I need to do to change me.

God Bless, G

This post reminded me of something I used to try to live by but seem to have forgotten. Thanks for the reminder :) From ODAT pg 165:The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves and not to twist them to fit our own image. Otherwise we love only the reflection of ourselves we find in them. (Thomas Merton: No Man is an Island") Personally, I don't think the majority of A's are all that happy - but that's according to MY definition/standards and MY observations from MY perspective - all of which are very different from theirs. We go into these relationships two people who have things in common and are getting whatever needs met - dysfunctional or not. Seems to me that when one person gets healthy/happy and the other doesn't there is often a disconnect; a growing apart. There comes a point when one or both stop getting what they need. Like attracts like. We have less and less in common. No one is truly happy within the relationship anymore. The A eventually stops getting what they need - which may amount to nothing more than an enabler. "God's time, not mine." What struck me (right between the eyes - HARD!!! ) in this post was:AND the best part about it is that having recognized this I realized how much I truly, deeply love him. Enough to let him go and discover what it is that he needs to be truly happy,.even if that means without me. I'm having to let my A go. It's the last thing I want to do. No. That's wrong. It's not even on my list of things I want to do. Period. I don't even know that I can do it. My concern is primarily for me. I don't want to be abandoned, alone. I don't want to have to do the stupid dating thing again. I so hate that. I don't want to lose the good stuff we still have together. I don't want to have to grieve. I don't want to miss him and on and on. Me me me. He has no desire to quit drinking. He has no desire to work on the underlying issues - self esteem etc. He thinks that someday when he wakes up and magically has a decent job and house and yadda yadda he'll be happy. He thinks or hopes he can be a functional A. What choice do I have but to let him go prove the truth of untruth of that to himself? He said to me yesterday that it can't work with him staying here because I don't drink and because of that he feels guilty when he does. No matter how 'good' a program I can manage to work he's always gonna feel that way - not good enough, or less than, or whatever it is. Unhappy, unfullfilled. If he stays he gets to blame those feelings on the fact that I don't drink rather than the fact that he DOES. Yet there is this really annoying voice inside my head that says if I work the program, if I get me where I need to be, it might work for us. I might get what I want. Even if he were able to be a functional A, I won't get the companion I truly want. I'll be settling for the next best thing. He'll know that. He will never be 'good enough' even if I were content. I'm trying to convince myself to stop being so selfish and love us BOTH enough to let him go be who he is at this moment in time(however sick or not), rather than "love" him into being who I think he should be or even who he claims he wants to be. If I believed he would die if he stayed with me, I'd leave him in a heartbeat and feel good about it. I'd be saving him after all wouldn't I? AND he might actually come back to me when he got better. Me me me. It could very well be that he may die of this disease if I don't let him go and do what he feels he needs to do - which is to remove me and surround himself with people who support his disease. Right now, that's what he feels that's what will make him happy. I'm sure he WILL be happier. So what should I do? Convince him to stay in a "healthier" environment so that he's unhappy, feeling inadequate and guilty and will maybe finally be driven to quit drinking? Maybe he'll prove me wrong. Maybe he will magically become the functional A that he so very much wants to be and be happy doing it. Maybe he'll just go through life as he is now - feeling stuck, unhappy and unable to give or receive love because he hates himself. I can't ever fill that hole in him. For as long as I'm trying to do this we both suffer. I don't believe God deals out suffering etc. I think its more along the lines of a game of hide and seek. God's saying "come find me". I think he hides behind things like human desires, ego/will, and attachments - imo the causes of much of human suffering. I think we are all connected, and when one suffers, we all suffer, in some form to varying degrees. Right now, my attachments, ego and desires are standing in the way of my finding Him and true happiness - which (I believe) in the end is inside of each of us. If I hold on tightly to my A and try to get him to see the "light", even out of love/concern for his well being, I hurt me - I'm not getting what I truly want from the relationship. So long as I suffer he suffers and vice versa. Yeah, just trying to convince myself to let go here.

I guess it doesn't really matter who is right, does it. After all, we say to newcomers who are not sure if the person they love is an A - "As long as you are unhappy, there is something you can do to become happier." We are not in alanon for the sake of the A. I know that this is easier to say than to really believe, but it is true. The more we focus on ourselves in this program, and allow others to do what they feel is best for themselves, the better it works. It is entirely possible that some of us are not married to A's at all, but just to people who enjoy a drink, and for whatever reason in OUR selves, we can't handle that. All the more reason for us to need a program, I say. I find that I use the program more, these days, in dealing with my teenagers, and with the s(tuff) at work, than I do in dealing with my husband. The tools work in all life situations. I no longer micromanage my kids' lives, and I don't take their acting out personally. Instead of silently raging against stupid work colleagues (sp?), I either deal with the situation directly, or I let it go. I am a happier person, with the program, and the people around me are happier too.