I remember when I got the call from the ex a after he was in recovery on his maneds to me .It went like this Hi this is ,,,,I am sorry for all I did have a good day.At first that made me so angry and people in the program suggested I go to a aa meeting so I went to a couple and it angered me more I heard about how dare my boss make me take a drug test and on and on.
I got in the program little longer and realize it was about him being sober and I accpeted that and went on with my life.He married the girl he cheated on he met in aa and they are in aa.She was also a friend of years back and waited for the call they would call and say sorty they hurt me and mean it.
Quess what the call will probably never come.I know aa is based on 12 steps and we are not to trash them helping getting some one sober.But their are lives and kids destrpyed and you get hey it was the disease that did it and i met someone new at aa she gets me and in aa they all clap wow you are really worknig your program.
No it is the same ole selfish behavior that comes along in it.I just needed to say this out loud.
The ex a father raped me destroyed my childhood , and fell in love with a a and he almost killed me tortured me almost burnt my house down and a drunk driver killed my sister at the age of 22 and the amends i get is sorryfor the stuff i did have a godo day and his sponosr appaulds that.
aa is about getting them sober what makes them finally accontiable for all the lives they destroyed.
i know when i have made amends it is from my heart and i change my behavoiur and really see what i did and name it ..
and i know some will say oh it is just this one guy no i have met many in aa and it seems to be the norm.justification and no really remorse..
for me my program is now i said it out loud is let it go and not expect him or her to pick up the phone and really be sorry cause they arent ha.
dori
Jill said
Jun 20, 2005
Hi Dori, it's good to see you here again. You remind me of when I used to practice how it will feel when the person who owed me an apology ... apologized to me. I waited for it. I yearned for it. When it FINALLY came it was unsatisfying. It didn't meet my criteria (sufficiently remorseful, a behavior change, etc), it was definitely too little too late. Now I see it was for him, not at all for me. I am OK with that, because now when I recognize I do something wrong or not my best behavior, I too apologize to the person but it's FOR MYSELF.
Being at the other end of the stick from someone's bad behavior isn't cancelled by an apology. I just want to get out of the dynamic. Thanks, I am glad to hear from you again. Jill
richard said
Jun 20, 2005
I did AA regularly for 11-1/2 years. Now I go infrequently. I have my bias reasons for not attending meetings. I have not had a drink in some 18 years now. I do not believe in sponsorship; I believe in meetings, I am not a proponent of this detachment thing and so on. All the unresolved feelings you have from all the abuse you received from your ex… a mere sincere apology from him will not resolve all those negative feelings. Nothing he can do will do that. Only you can work on those things; are you? However, this "…it's a selfish program…" thing, so often heard at A.A. meetins, is an amateur intellectual, emotionally ignorant person with the group consonance, wanting of appeasing the one's self guilt. You getting what 'you' consider to be a 'right' apology is you finally getting some attention from someone who mostly never gave you what you so sought after… you know… his approval. When it comes to most abusive relationships it takes two to dance you know. You were getting something out of that relationship you know… you had a perpetual fixing job that made you feel to be the ultimate mother that you were socialized to be or be nothing at all (identity). Once a person is intellectually and emotionally mature the person realizes there is nothing to be forgiven. Alcoholism which is a drug-ism is a secondary disease. The primary disease is mental, emotional, and spiritual severe illness that preempted and allowed the first use of the toxic drug alcohol or other such drug. The so called alcohol disease that so many so badly want to be a separate entity to the man or woman is not cause of anybody's meanness; it only intensifies what already existed in the primary disease. So, I think.
I am sorry about you pain; however gotten, however it exists pain sucks—great teacher—but sucks.
Oh yeah… many years ago, I asked a teacher of mine…God herself she was… "For all my life, I so absorbed with my own horrid, horrendous pain, I was always putting myself first… now A.A. idiots are telling me to put myself first…in it is a selfish program… what?" This Goddess, says, "Why do you not care about others as you care about yourself and care about yourself as you care about others?" (Please note: that I did not say "take care of"; just 'care'.)
Hugs & Luv,
-- Edited by richard at 00:04, 2005-06-21
TLC2 said
Jun 21, 2005
Wow! That hit a sore spot with me. There are some things (I think) that you just can't forgive someone for. As you said, the amends was for him so he could go through life without a guilty conscience.
My ex will never call me to make amends, maybe he can forgive himself for what he did to me, but I can't forgive him.
My brother called me while I was on vacation and told me our oldest brother was dying. I hadn't spoken to my sick brother for many years, and my younger brother thought I might want to come home and 'make amends'. I had nothing to make amends for, it wasn't me that hurt him, it was the other way around!! I didn't come home, I didn't make amends, he did die. He was a very sick (in the head) person, and even if I could have forgiven him for hurting me, I could never forgive him for all the other people he hurt!!
Wow, I've needed to get this off my chest for a long, long time!! I can't help the way I feel, and if I can never be a good person because of it, so be it!!
So, you can see I certainly relate to your feelings. Thanks for getting this off my chest. I hope you will find peace and serenity in your life now. I don't think either of us is an evil person because of the way we feel, some scars just go too deep to heal. That's my opinion anyway, take what you need and leave the rest... Love, TLC
dori said
Jun 21, 2005
Hi,
your reponse amazed me.First I was 9 years old when my dad started rapeing and I was not getting nothing out of it and at the age of 12 I took my brother and sister to child welfare and turn my parents in so my brother and sisters would have a chance.Do not ever adress a incest victim or abuse victim that they had something to do with it. How dare you.
As fas as the ex a abuse goes yes I played a part in it and you assumed I did not see that I left him when i saw it and got help .I have never got my self in another realtionship cause I know i am not heathy enough.but it not excuse abuse never.............. i will not do as you did and assume but i am very curious how you could excuse abuse.
as far as meetings and not haveing a sponsor is it cause you are so arragant that no one will tell you how to live your life or suggest on how i should say.
my post was on my saddness and expecting closure in the wrong way of him seeing his part in my pain but as i read your post and saw you are a achcholic it just made mypoint accurate.
abuse for your leanring never is acceptable!!
lildee said
Jun 21, 2005
Dearest Dori,
No amends in the world will ever smooth over all the pain and hurt that you feel in your heart.
When my hubby made his amends I too was expecting some grandiose apology for the hell that he put us through. But that was my "expectations". He feels that his amends is seen through his actions.... by staying clean & sober. So far he has stuck to his amends and has been clean & sober for almost two years.
The pain, guilt, and resentments that I carried were mine. Mine to deal with , mine to release or to hold on to , as I choose. I wasn't able to forgive and forget all at once. It took time. Little by little ODAT.
His amends were for him... for his head...to make him realize that he did wrong. Just as my amends were for me. Just saying amends is not going to cure, or fix anything. It is a process of realization and coming back into reality. Realizing that they played a part in all of this.
The journey down the road continues and actions speak volumes.
Love & God Bless
lildee
debilyn said
Jun 21, 2005
Dearest Dori, I read your response to Brown eyes and was pretty shocked.
My first thought was this lady is carrying a lot of pain and bitterness inside her.
Then I see your amends post. I am so glad you are spitting this poison OUT. It really
concerns me that you are carrying all this stuff inside.
If I felt like you, I would find a good counselor to guide me. I feel a need for love coming from you. A need of healing, letting go.
Remember we cannot control anyone else. I know you have been hurt terribly. But what I
found, after time was, I liked me too much to allow his sickness crap pull me down too.
When I felt bitter and hateful, that meant he and his disease had control of me. I learned
from alanon, that he had pulled me into his pit.
So over time I began to take care of me. Did things for me and focused on earthy things
and my kids and other loved ones. When I realized all the wonderful things in the
world were right there all along, the bitterness went away. I chose to see light not
darkness.
And now here I am in one of the hardest times in my life (cancer scare) my A, of
course is not here for me. But it opened my eyes for the last time. My husband does not
love me. It was not hard anymore to just finally let him go.
I don't feel bitter or mad or hateful. His deep pit has him so far down that I cannot
connect or relate to him anyway.
I have a happy life,I love lemonade and planting flowers. I love my wonderful adult kids and my animals.
After I got more and more well, I saw the stars again and the simplest things make me feel rich.
I am so far away from that A darkness, I never want to feel that way again.
The wounds can heal. I don't even think about the stuff he ruined, the stuff I lost.
I think about all I have and all I get to see and do.
Dori please, please let the crap go. When ya think about it, try to say STOP, and
put in I love yellow irises or whatever. Just stop it, it is making you sick.
Fill that pit with happy stuff and climb out.
I love you alanon sis, debilyn PS ignore Richard, I tend to get rubbed the wrong way by
his stuff too. But that is my problem.
I was reading his reply to you and was horrified, I did not realize it was him. Saw his name at the end and said ahhhh no wonder it is Richard!!
But I am glad he is here as I like to hear all different kinds of things.
wallsal55 said
Jun 21, 2005
I know I have to face the fact that I may never receive amends from former ex A boyfriends and even the 'type' of amends from my spouse that I want. I may never hear the words I want to hear. It takes a lot of courage for the alcoholic working his program to get that honest and face it head on.
In the mean time, if I have expectations that I WILL receive that amend, I am setting myself up for disappointment. We make ourselves miserable, too, when we believe someone 'owes' us something. I don't know, we have our right to our feelings, but we cannot let it run, ruin, contaminate the rest of our lives.
Some never do make the necessary amends, some take many years to face doing it. We still have to go on, living our lives to the best of our ability. That's just how I look at it.
dori said
Jun 21, 2005
thank you
RichardA said
Jun 21, 2005
DORI
FIRST OFF LET ME SAY-I'M NEW HERE AND I PROBABLY SHOULD NOT VOICE MY OPINION AS A NEWBIE-BUT-I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE WITH A LOT OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS
ON BEHALF OF MYSELF LET ME OFFER MY AMENDS-I AM SORRY THAT YOU AND OTHERS HAD TO SUFFER AT THE HANDS OF AN ALCOHOLIC WHEN YOU DID NOTHING TO DESERVE SUCH TREATMENT-I'M SORRY YOU LOST YOUR SISTER TO A DRUNK DRIVER-NO-ONE DESERVES THAT--EVERY 30 MINUTES SOMEONE LOSES THEIR LIFE IN AN ALCOHOL RELATED TRAFFIC INCIDENT(I DIDN'T WANT TO CALL IT ACCIDENTS)YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO BE ANGRY BUT DON'T HATE...
AA IS A SELF HELP PROGRAM FOR ALCOHOLICS SO THE MISSION IS NOT ORIENTATED TO THE RELATIONSHIP PROBLEMS-THE GOAL IS SOBRIETY FOR THE FEW THAT ACTUALLY ACHIEVE THAT GOAL--I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THE FIRST STEP IN AA SHOULD BE "PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR A**" AND THAN PROCEED WITH THE REST OF THE STEPS
ON A POSITIVE NOTE--YOU SAID YOUR "EX" THAT IS GOOD-YOU ARE NOW FREE TO GOVERN AND FORMULATE YOUR LIFE THE WAY YOU WANT IT TO GO...
AA IS FOR ALCOHOLICS AL-ANON IS FOR YOU MOST PEOPLE NEED TO SAY THINGS TO OPEN THE AIRWAY SO THEY CAN START BREATHING ON THEIR OWN...
I'VE BEEN READING THE POSTS HERE FOR ABOUT THREE WEEKS NOW AND "WOW" THERE ARE A LOT OF FOLKS OUT THERE THAT HAVE ENDURED A LOT MORE THAN I COULD EVEN FATHOM...IF NOTHING ELSE READING HAS MADE MY ISSUES SEEM QUITE TRIVIAL COMPARED TO THE HEARTACHES THAT ARE OUT THERE...
PLEASE TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND KEEP TALKING-IT WILL HELP CLEAR YOUR MIND--IT APPEARS THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF THOUGHTFUL CARING FOLKS OUT THERE THAT CAN HELP YOU FIND PEACE OF MIND
TAKE CARE
Hello gang,
I remember when I got the call from the ex a after he was in recovery on his maneds to me .It went like this Hi this is ,,,,I am sorry for all I did have a good day.At first that made me so angry and people in the program suggested I go to a aa meeting so I went to a couple and it angered me more I heard about how dare my boss make me take a drug test and on and on.
I got in the program little longer and realize it was about him being sober and I accpeted that and went on with my life.He married the girl he cheated on he met in aa and they are in aa.She was also a friend of years back and waited for the call they would call and say sorty they hurt me and mean it.
Quess what the call will probably never come.I know aa is based on 12 steps and we are not to trash them helping getting some one sober.But their are lives and kids destrpyed and you get hey it was the disease that did it and i met someone new at aa she gets me and in aa they all clap wow you are really worknig your program.
No it is the same ole selfish behavior that comes along in it.I just needed to say this out loud.
The ex a father raped me destroyed my childhood , and fell in love with a a and he almost killed me tortured me almost burnt my house down and a drunk driver killed my sister at the age of 22 and the amends i get is sorryfor the stuff i did have a godo day and his sponosr appaulds that.
aa is about getting them sober what makes them finally accontiable for all the lives they destroyed.
i know when i have made amends it is from my heart and i change my behavoiur and really see what i did and name it ..
and i know some will say oh it is just this one guy no i have met many in aa and it seems to be the norm.justification and no really remorse..
for me my program is now i said it out loud is let it go and not expect him or her to pick up the phone and really be sorry cause they arent ha.
dori
Hi Dori, it's good to see you here again. You remind me of when I used to practice how it will feel when the person who owed me an apology ... apologized to me. I waited for it. I yearned for it. When it FINALLY came it was unsatisfying. It didn't meet my criteria (sufficiently remorseful, a behavior change, etc), it was definitely too little too late. Now I see it was for him, not at all for me. I am OK with that, because now when I recognize I do something wrong or not my best behavior, I too apologize to the person but it's FOR MYSELF.
Being at the other end of the stick from someone's bad behavior isn't cancelled by an apology. I just want to get out of the dynamic. Thanks, I am glad to hear from you again. Jill
I did AA regularly for 11-1/2 years. Now I go infrequently. I have my bias reasons for not attending meetings. I have not had a drink in some 18 years now. I do not believe in sponsorship; I believe in meetings, I am not a proponent of this detachment thing and so on. All the unresolved feelings you have from all the abuse you received from your ex… a mere sincere apology from him will not resolve all those negative feelings. Nothing he can do will do that. Only you can work on those things; are you? However, this "…it's a selfish program…" thing, so often heard at A.A. meetins, is an amateur intellectual, emotionally ignorant person with the group consonance, wanting of appeasing the one's self guilt. You getting what 'you' consider to be a 'right' apology is you finally getting some attention from someone who mostly never gave you what you so sought after… you know… his approval. When it comes to most abusive relationships it takes two to dance you know. You were getting something out of that relationship you know… you had a perpetual fixing job that made you feel to be the ultimate mother that you were socialized to be or be nothing at all (identity). Once a person is intellectually and emotionally mature the person realizes there is nothing to be forgiven. Alcoholism which is a drug-ism is a secondary disease. The primary disease is mental, emotional, and spiritual severe illness that preempted and allowed the first use of the toxic drug alcohol or other such drug. The so called alcohol disease that so many so badly want to be a separate entity to the man or woman is not cause of anybody's meanness; it only intensifies what already existed in the primary disease. So, I think.
I am sorry about you pain; however gotten, however it exists pain sucks—great teacher—but sucks.
Oh yeah… many years ago, I asked a teacher of mine…God herself she was… "For all my life, I so absorbed with my own horrid, horrendous pain, I was always putting myself first… now A.A. idiots are telling me to put myself first…in it is a selfish program… what?" This Goddess, says, "Why do you not care about others as you care about yourself and care about yourself as you care about others?" (Please note: that I did not say "take care of"; just 'care'.)
Hugs & Luv,
-- Edited by richard at 00:04, 2005-06-21
Wow! That hit a sore spot with me. There are some things (I think) that you just can't forgive someone for. As you said, the amends was for him so he could go through life without a guilty conscience.
My ex will never call me to make amends, maybe he can forgive himself for what he did to me, but I can't forgive him.
My brother called me while I was on vacation and told me our oldest brother was dying. I hadn't spoken to my sick brother for many years, and my younger brother thought I might want to come home and 'make amends'. I had nothing to make amends for, it wasn't me that hurt him, it was the other way around!! I didn't come home, I didn't make amends, he did die. He was a very sick (in the head) person, and even if I could have forgiven him for hurting me, I could never forgive him for all the other people he hurt!!
Wow, I've needed to get this off my chest for a long, long time!! I can't help the way I feel, and if I can never be a good person because of it, so be it!!
So, you can see I certainly relate to your feelings. Thanks for getting this off my chest. I hope you will find peace and serenity in your life now. I don't think either of us is an evil person because of the way we feel, some scars just go too deep to heal. That's my opinion anyway, take what you need and leave the rest... Love, TLC
Hi,
your reponse amazed me.First I was 9 years old when my dad started rapeing and I was not getting nothing out of it and at the age of 12 I took my brother and sister to child welfare and turn my parents in so my brother and sisters would have a chance.Do not ever adress a incest victim or abuse victim that they had something to do with it. How dare you.
As fas as the ex a abuse goes yes I played a part in it and you assumed I did not see that I left him when i saw it and got help .I have never got my self in another realtionship cause I know i am not heathy enough.but it not excuse abuse never.............. i will not do as you did and assume but i am very curious how you could excuse abuse.
as far as meetings and not haveing a sponsor is it cause you are so arragant that no one will tell you how to live your life or suggest on how i should say.
my post was on my saddness and expecting closure in the wrong way of him seeing his part in my pain but as i read your post and saw you are a achcholic it just made mypoint accurate.
abuse for your leanring never is acceptable!!
Dearest Dori,
No amends in the world will ever smooth over all the pain and hurt that you feel in your heart.
When my hubby made his amends I too was expecting some grandiose apology for the hell that he put us through. But that was my "expectations". He feels that his amends is seen through his actions.... by staying clean & sober. So far he has stuck to his amends and has been clean & sober for almost two years.
The pain, guilt, and resentments that I carried were mine. Mine to deal with , mine to release or to hold on to , as I choose. I wasn't able to forgive and forget all at once. It took time. Little by little ODAT.
His amends were for him... for his head...to make him realize that he did wrong. Just as my amends were for me. Just saying amends is not going to cure, or fix anything. It is a process of realization and coming back into reality. Realizing that they played a part in all of this.
The journey down the road continues and actions speak volumes.
Love & God Bless
lildee
I know I have to face the fact that I may never receive amends from former ex A boyfriends and even the 'type' of amends from my spouse that I want. I may never hear the words I want to hear. It takes a lot of courage for the alcoholic working his program to get that honest and face it head on.
In the mean time, if I have expectations that I WILL receive that amend, I am setting myself up for disappointment. We make ourselves miserable, too, when we believe someone 'owes' us something. I don't know, we have our right to our feelings, but we cannot let it run, ruin, contaminate the rest of our lives.
Some never do make the necessary amends, some take many years to face doing it. We still have to go on, living our lives to the best of our ability. That's just how I look at it.
RichardA,
Thank you for your kind words it helped .dori