Is there a general meeting again this Wednesday? And will the discussion and VOTE come up over if we can continue to give hugs, smiles, agrees, etc. during meetings?  I got the impression that issue was tabled at the last meeting meaning left for the next meeting to be resolved. I only wish that people could vote via email too since it is so hard for all of us to be at the meeting. I personally would hate to see a meeting where there is no feedback at all when a person speaks. I see how  every situation is different and when I know of someone that does not want interuption or when it doesn't seem appropriate, people are mature enough to make that decision on their own. It would seem way to strict in my opinion to make such a rule or guideline. I would also like to remind people that even the owner JOHN/OP agreed on this kind of feedback per his reply on the meeting etiquette post at the top of this message board.

So, does anyone know if this will be addressed at the meeting this Wednesday and VOTED on?  cdb

Hi cdb...

I am sorry to hear about the strict guidelines that are being implemented, particularly ones relating to showing care and compassion to another person with hugs.  I wanted to respond because there were so many people, including yourself that I enjoyed talking and laughing with in the Alanon channel.  However, needed to detach, walk away because I found that some of the old timers and moderators seemed to be controlling of the matters to the point that they discouraged individuals to share their feelings completed.  It saddens me that the very reason people are coming to these meetings are to be able to express fully their emotions and recovery process, yet have people controlling what they should or should not talk about (particularly refering to literature outside of Alanon and God)  A program that restricts someone from talking about the very thing that allows them to heal and recovery during their share COMPLETELY contradicts what the program says it is all about.  Unfortunately, I have come to realize that this represents the same type of controll and abuse that comes from our abusive relationships, in feeling as if we need to watch what we say or walk on eggshells, as not to upset others.  It is ridiculous because if we really were in recovery and loved people for who they are, none of what another person said in regard to what helps them in their recovery would be taken personal towards another person. 

I could go an and on with this subject, but believe I have openly expressed myself... I miss the chats with some of you, but REFUSE to live a life continuing the same pattern of abuse in people dictating what I can and cannot talk about to bring myself through recovery.  I might as well, continue to live with an A or be in another unhealthy relationship-- BECAUSE it is STILL about the same thing, CONTROL!!! 

Take Care cdb and for those of you who can relate and who've shared laughs and fun while I was there with my openness as well.  If anyone ever wants to keep in touch, feel free to contact me via Yahoo Messenger at sandy_d0307. 

My prayers are with all who do not put God FIRST in their life, as without Him it doesn't matter how many friends or people are in your life... After all, it is Him that brings all those people to us. 

Hello Sanddie,

Thanks for sharing and being so honest. I took a break myself. I have health problems and it is difficult for me to get to f2f meetings. For this reason, MIP is something that is valuable to me. I did find that expressing my concerns to the owner/John/OP was very helpful. His address (email and home) is at the main page and you may have to resend your email since he is a very busy person and gets so many emails each day. I can not imagine how hard it is trying to work and earn a living plus volunteering your own computer and personal time to make a chatroom run like her does. I do have a very good friend that started a fibromyalgia chatroom and it takes a HUGE chunk of her time and finances to do so. I think anyone who has had problems here should bring it to his attention. He has several different rooms to run and is probably not aware of many things that keep going on, good or bad. I am sure he does not have time to read all the message boards either.

I hope you do at least continue to post and reply. I find that when we post, we are accountable for what we say. It is way too easy to type things in chat and never be accountable for them. your friend, cdb :)

Hi,

I don't know anything about voting.  Here's my opinoin to satisfy both.  When someone raises their hand to speak (!) they could type (!-FB), meaning no feedback during their share.  Others could choose (!+FB) meaning they like feedback during their share.  Personally I think I like it, it's how I know people are listening.  Otherwise if they was no feedback, I feel I'm just writing on my cpu, alone.   

DeAnna,

I personally think that is a great idea! I however, have a conflict with the meeting time.  And many who will be at the meeting do not read this message board. cdb

DeAnna,

The business meetings are the first Wednesday of the month,,,not sure of the time. Sort of like 6pm central time. Your input would be very much appreciated by me. cdb :) I believe the business meeting is listed on the scripts during the meetings,,,but could be wrong. your friend, cdb

Hi All,, I'm David grateful member of Al-Anon

Just want to say a couple of things.  First the program of alanon has guidelines.  These guidelines were put in place for good reasons.  We, those of us who are chairing meetings, etc.  did not make up these guidelines.  We do not try to follow them as a way to "control" anyone.  We are trying to work the program of Al-Anon, the way we understand it.  One of the issues some have seemed to be concerned about is the introduction of outside non alanon approved literature during meetings....well.....that is what the program of Al-Anon recommends...and is what every operator or meeting chairperson has "extremely gently" tried to follow.  I have seen extremely "personal attacks" on the chairperson for trying to point this out by folks in the meeting who will spew something at the chairperson and then "run" out of the room.  

These guidelines are there for a reason, to make this program work for everyone!

The chatroom is open 24/7.  Thats 168 hours a week.  For 21 of those hours (2 meetings a day)  certain guidelines apply as to what literature can be discussed.  The other 147 hours of the week during open chat...outside literature can be discussed! 

The other thing I want to discuss is this: We are not governed by any one person, and no one persons opinion is any more or less important that the other.  Period.  We are all special.  We are all here for the same reason.  To heal.  And I would add to that, that we are here to feel the special love generated in this program. 

I love MIP.  I love Al-Anon. I love all of you who come here in a way I have never know before I came to the program.  These questions of meeting etiquette are certainly open for debate and I applaud anyone who expresses their opinion on whether or not we should give "cyber hugs" during a person's share.  It is the GROUP that can best decide how we want to run our online meetings, in my opinion.  And I for one do not have a problem with the outcome of any vote on the subject which ever way it comes out.  I willingly abide by any group decision on that. 

But, I certainly would have a problem with this Group trying to change the program of Al-Anon as it has been passed down to us.  This program may not be for everyone....though I certainly don't think that anyone who is actually working the program will fail to experience such growth and love as they have never known before.

I am writing this out of concern.  Concern that we all need to be able to get past the perception of personalities and focus on the principles that can let the peace, love and understanding of THE PROGRAM grow in us one day at a time.

"Al-Anon in not allied with any sect, denomination, political entity, organization or institution; does NOT engage in ANY controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any cause".

This program is for not just for me, and it is not just for you.  This program is for All of Us.  No matter what we believe or dont believe in.  And thats why it works for so many, and not just a few.  Don't let someone else's personal bias against something about you (such as being an Atheist, Catholic, Republican, Democrat,,,etc. etc.) prevent you from being able to help them.  Don't let YOUR personal bias prevent you from being helped by someone else.  This is a program of miracles.  Each and every one of us is a special miracle of life.  Each of us has much to offer.  Each of us has much to learn.

I love you all in a Very Special Way. 

Yours in Recovery,

David

Hi david,

Before I respond on your post, I'd like to make it clear that what I am about to say is NOTHING personal towards you, nor has it ever been personal towards anyone.....   You wrote:

"Don't let someone else's personal bias against something about you (such as being an Atheist, Catholic, Republican, Democrat,,,etc. etc.) prevent you from being able to help them.  Don't let YOUR personal bias prevent you from being helped by someone else.  This is a program of miracles.  Each and every one of us is a special miracle of life.  Each of us has much to offer.  Each of us has much to learn."

That being the case, then I would expect that when someone is sharing what is helping them in their recovery, whether it be Alanon literature, Codependency literature, Religious beliefs or ANY self-help resource that is available, then we are required to listen to them fully.  I do not agree with people being told that they cannot make reference to a source that has helped them get where they are today and that is why I chose to walk away from Alanon online. 

My recovery has been dependent on ALL resources, not just Alanon and because of how some people have chosen to express themselves openly about how they do not want to be compared to other organizations or other literature or religious beliefs is outright selfish.  If we are accepting of ALL people, then why so much animosity or defensiveness towards other programs, groups, or beliefs.  I don't get it! 

I will ask once again..... What is Alanon all about?  Isn't it supposed to be BOTTOM LINE, respecting EVERYONE and what they have to share-- there should be NO competition going on between Alanon and other groups-- it is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous and halts the progression of individuals by silencing them because of what Alanon says a person can or cannot talk about.....  If that isn't control, then please tell me what is? 

You go onto say that each of us has much to offer--- that also being the case, then why is it we don't listen to what has helped others recover beyond the scope of Alanon.  Is that statement written with conditions?  Each of us has much to offer as long as we keep it according to Alanon literature ONLY?  Makes absolutely no sense to me that if we are in a program that is supposed to help others that we discourage whatever it is that a person may NEED to talk about for their recovery.  It's not just the Alanon way.....  just as it is not just the other organization or peoples beliefs way-- so why not just let people be free to talk as they need to talk?

Wow! I wasn't expecting all this from my one question above. It is great though that we can express our opinions here. But, does anyone have an answer to my original question? lol   cdb :)

haha cdb-- I think HUGS are VERY IMPORTANT!  :)))  Just as I think allowing people to express themselves as they need to express themselves is very important, granted that it is not interrupting the share of another individual.  That would include interjecting that they cannot talk about other literature in the middle of their share.  Think about it...  if you were pouring your heart out to people with all you believed helps you through your most difficult painful times and someone interjects SORRY, YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT HERE--- what would that do to you?  The same thing it does to someone in an abusive relationship-- makes them feel that they cannot express how they feel and address their need to do so.... 

I will no longer post on this subject because I am not here to continue in a debate.  I am like everyone else here in recovery and am fortunate though to have had many years into it.  However, when I think back to my beginning days when I was so afraid to talk about anything, had I came into a room with people telling me I couldn't talk about things during my initial stages of recovery, it would have broke me down further having people set conditions on what I could or could not do.... particularly, because that is typical of what happens in abusive relationships.   We are taught NOT to express what we believe for ourselves and I guess this entire subject strikes a nerve in me because ultimately that is EXACTLY what people have done as well-- told people that they cannot express what they need to express to address their needs. 

Sanndie,

I totally agree with you on that one! your friend, cdb :)

Hi Sandee!  Good to hear your thoughts!

What I am trying to say is...if during a meeting i share that i learned something great out of the bible that has helped me ..and someone listening is an atheist....that person might discount anything i have to say because they are biased against me because i read the bible ....if i can pass that same idea along in the context of alanon literature..and its there somewhere...they may be more willing to listen to something that i have to share..and it might be able to help them...

thanks for being here!

David

David:

I completely understand what you are saying BECAUSE I have been in recovery for so many years and yes people do tend to resist what they are not comfortable with....  However, people may resist the fact that there are more people in the meeting than they are used to-- does that mean we do not let them into the meeting, either online or f2f? 

I am speaking for people who are in deep need of expressing their pain, particularly the ones in the intial stages of still trying to figure out so much emotion inside of them.  They should be able to speak on ANYTHING it is that they need to speak on to allow in their healing process.  Think about it-- Are these people who are in their early stages of recovery REALLY thinking about anything other than their own emotions and thoughts that are sooooooo jumbled.  You just cannot put a condition on what a person should or should not say because ultimately recovery comes in having been allowed to address all of their emotions and thoughts without being told that they cannot do so in such a way that is not allowed by Alanon. 

Yes, once a greater understanding of recovery develops then choices need to be made as not to affect others... However, our shares are not supposed to be about affecting others, but rather learning that we can completely trust ourselves and the people listening to us to accept us no matter what we share in all confidentiality.   Reflection back on where we came from during our initial stages of recovery should allow us to respect these individuals to share completely without interruption.    The sole intent of the share for the individual is NOT about how it affects other individuals, as it is about how it aids in the recovery of the person offering their share-- it's about THEM and their time to share what is critical to them to share for healing of themselves.  

It is sooooo critical to let someone talk about ANYTHING during a share and respect that without interrupting AT ALL for their own recovery.  That's the ONLY point I'm trying to stress.  Abuse is very serious in our world and so much of it comes in the form of mental, emotional and verbal.. the drinking is just the tangible form of it, but it's the person behind it that contributes to all of this abuse.  If we cannot talk to people openly and completely during our share when we ulimately come to these meetings just for that then who can we talk too?  Not everyone has support outside of these meetings and this is a lifeline for many individuals.   

Sanddie, let me share a few quotes from Paths to Recovery, that express far better than I can the point I am trying to make.

Tradition One: "Our common welfare should come first; personal progress to the greatest number depends on unity."

"Sharing our common experiences and the Al-Anon solutions at meetings is what makes a meeting alive and unified in purpose"

"Sometimes, however, members consciously or unconsciously disregard the Traditions.  In such instances each of us has a responsibility to remind them of the Traditions in a caring, loving way.  When making a suggestion, it helps if we remember that guidelines are for group harmony.  Our traditions are suggestions that we adhere to voluntarily, using the best understanding we have of them at the time.  We have learned that as our recovery expands, our ability to benefit from the Traditions also expands".

"As new members, we find it far easier to talk about the alchoholics in our lives than to focus on ourselves.  Later we learn that taking excessive time dumping a great many details on the group is not beneficial to the group or for us..... A sponsor is a person with whom a member can share and discuss personal problems or questions in detail, who will willingly share their Al-Anon experience, strength and hope one-on-one".

"Sometimes desperate newcomers may need to unburden.  Allowing them some meeting time to share and making an offer of personal contact after the meeting are ways to offer loving understanding in this situation".

"A good source of unifying material is our own Conference Approved Literature (CAL)...written by Al-Anon members and has passed through a rigorous World Service Conference approval process......It is appropriate for use at all Al-Anon meetings and events.  What we read outside meetings is our own business and becomes a part of our personal experience.  In meetings we share from our personal experiences and from CAL.  With all the research, popular writing and media attention to alcholism, we in Al-Anon cannot review and discuss everything that is published.  We keep it simple when we use the literature the we know reflects our Al-Anon approach to alcoholism.  Using CAL also has the advantage of allowing us to access the experience, strength and hope of members in our large, diverse, worldwide fellowship.  Through CAL we share the suggestions we KNOW have helped us".

For my part, certainly I am not suggesting that a newcomer not be allowed to vent and express their thoughts.  And I am not sure exactly what you are saying, someone "in deep need of expressing their pain, particularly the ones in the intial stages of still trying to figure out so much emotion inside of them" would be quoting non CAL literature as a mean of expressing their pain?  I am not trying to be difficult...I just dont understand how those two things relate.   If someone just comes into a meeting for the first time...and hears members sharing ES&H thats good.  If they are in a state of high duress, as I was the first times i went to meetings, we are allowed to share our problems.  (I cried for the first month of meetings and when  I shared it wasnt about recovery it was about dumping...which is of course part of recovery afterall ).  If I am in the process of recovering and read something good in a non CAL piece of literature that's great!  Can I share it with my Al-Anon friends?  You bet.  Can I share it with the world?  You bet!  Should i share it in an Al-Anon meeting?  Tradition One says no.  Why not?  Because of Unity.  Because of a common purpose, a shared goal.  "We share the suggestions we KNOW have helped us". 

I so totally agree with you and understand what you are saying about the abuse that many of us have suffered, and that we need to talk about it.  And I believe that no where else but Al-Anon would you find more perfect people to talke about these things with.  Because they have been there too! 

Please understand, I deeply believe in the programs of AA, Al-Anon, NA, Alateen.  These programs are a gift to us all from our HP.  I know they work, I am living proof.  So are countless numbers of others.  

And, as a friend pointed out to me, you don't go to a Jewish Synagogue to learn Catholicism.

"Al-Anon spoken here!"    That helps to "Keep it Simple".  And "it works if you work it".

With Love in Recovery

David

When I attended my first ftf (face to face) meeting, on the table were little reminder signs "Al-Anon Spoken Here" that also had listed things we don't discuss in Al-Anon meetings.  The reason for this is explained in more detail in the pamphlet Al-Anon Spoken Here (P-53).  I've copied 2 questions and answers from that pamphlet below.  I would urge everyone to get and read that pamphlet.  They are free from the ftf groups, or can be ordered at www.al-anon.alateen.org  Our meeting guidelines are based on the Twelve Traditions.  Tradition Six (for one) specifically addresses the issues raised in this post.  In the Conclusion on page 10 from the above pamphlet it states, "If a group does not observe the Traditions, it risks the possibility of conflict or error, and could inadvertently deprive members of the help that so many others have found in Al-Anon......We do not get the Al-Anon program anywhere else, and when we come to our meetings, the Al-Anon program is all we expect to hear.  Ensuring that Al-Anon is Spoken Here, strengthens group harmony and helps keep our program positive, healthy, and enduring." 

Room moderators are not trying to be controlling.  They are merely trying to adhere to Al-Anon program guidelines that have been in place over 50 years and have worked well all those years.  These guidelines were put in place by Al-Anon members for Al-Anon members.  No one person can change how a group or the program works.  Group unity is the goal (see Tradition One explanation in Paths to Recovery or How Alanon Works).  Groups have autonomy to decide their format, where they meet, etc. but if they choose to disregard the Traditions then the group becomes an unhealthy one, losing the unity and sense of familiarity we find in all the groups. 

I agree there are many other resources available to us in our search for recovery.  I own several books that are not CAL (conference approved literature) that I heard mentioned in open chat here.  They are excellent books.  I have no problem discussing those and other resources in open chat.  But when it comes to meeting times, my focus is on how Al-Anon helps me.  This is an Al-Anon program.  It is not a Melody Beattie program or a Dr. Phil program or any other type program.  It is an Al-Anon program.  I come here to hear and learn from Al-Anon.  I wouldn't go to a Jewish synagogue expecting to hear and learn about Catholicism or vice versa.  In the same token, I don't come to Al-Anon meetings expecting to hear and learn about other outside resources/programs.  I come to hear Al-Anon Spoken Here.

From Al-Anon Spoken Here pamphlet (P-53)...
Page 6..."My family and I are involved in an outside recovery program.  Wouldn't the insights from this therapy be valuable to the rest of the fellowship?  According to our Traditions, Al-Anon endorses no outside enterprise and has no opinion on outside issues.  Our focus is on ourselves and the program tools.  The introduction of outside influences diverts us from our spiritual goals.  Reviewing our therapy sessions, prayer or meditation groups or discussing our religious beliefs during meetings dilutes the Al-Anon message and can deprive others of the unique help Al-Anon has to offer.  We also avoid the use of professional jargon.  Terms used in particular therapies or other programs do not belong in Al-Anon/Alateen meetings.
Page 7..."Why does Al-Anon/Alateen discourage the use of professional terminology at its meetings?  As noted in our Al-Anon/Alateen Service Manual concerning the dilution of the Al-Anon program, "Focus on the Al-Anon interpretation of our program is strengthened when we avoid using professional terms and labels since they may confuse members by implying affiliation with certain persons or specific therapies."  Our recovery depends on our concentrating on ourselves as Al-Anon/Alateen members rather than on the alcoholic."...

I finally got onto this board to actually post!  Good for me  : )

   I have been wanting to share my point of view on this subject of hugs, etc and also a bit on the subject of people talking about other programs they are involved in.  As some of you have heard me say my addict has more than one addiction, alcohol.  There is one major addiction we have been addressing for a few years now that has really turned my world upside down and I sometimes will make mention of that addiction when I introduce myself at meetings (which for me shows real growth and is important for me to let go of it in that way).  Other than just mentioning I also participate in another program I otherwise don't go into program details, at least not during meetings.  It's another thing if someone actually asks me in open chat.  I have been in Alanon for quite a while, over 10 years off and on, and know the guidelines.  Of course, the point has been brought up here quite a bit that since this is the Internet we are having meetings on, not f2f, there should be a loophole at least for the option of people accepting hugs or some recognition so the person who is sharing knows people are listening.  My thought on this topic is that it is okay, as long as it is not interrupting the persons share continuously.  It is my experience in sharing in meetings that I do not mind someone saying relate or smiley face as long as it is not continuous.  I also know that sometimes I have been sharing and someone interrupts and it can break a persons train of thought on a subject.      Dana