Yes, I do understand your points. I would never expect anything to be tailored to all my specific needs. I also realize that I must find my own way around some of these steps that mention god. However, discussing this when you are standing in front of a room full of people you do not know is to me anxiety provoking. I have had bad experiences in my life when it was learned I was an atheist. My beliefs are not something I speak about really to anyone I don't know. If you haven't had experiences like this, count yourself lucky. For me, standing up and speaking my truth in front of a room full of strangers when it isn't a very popular stance and has the potential to make some people very angry when my truth is different from theirs feels a bit like standing in front of a firing squad.
The meeting I attended had discussed this topic before, but hadn't gone too deeply into it. When the reading at the last meeting specifically mentioned atheism (in a light that involved the narrator being better able to work the steps by stepping away from atheism), a discussion ensued about how the wording of god in the steps, etc may be keeping some people away. That's what has been happening to me. I am happy that I found a group open minded enough to even consider the possibility of looking at the wording.
-- Edited by uncreativename on Thursday 20th of July 2017 01:31:18 PM
mamalioness said
Jul 20, 2017
I used to get annoyed at all the "G-d" stuff and the Lord's prayer at meetings, WHEN I heard it..I think most of them did, and some did the Serenity prayer....Religion has no place in my life but spiritually does....I have a beloved cousin who just can't seem to "believe" or accept that I am an Agnostic about any G-d being involved in my life....the scientific and personal evidence for me is that I always had to cope ON MY OWN using what higher power was WITHIN me to give me guidance and because I was so messed up, I could not connect to my highest self, hence the screwed up and painful life......My dear cousin, when we eat, insists on prayer, the Lords prayer or another religious prayer before we eat....because it isn't harmful to me to wait a sec so she can pray, I do show respect and listen in silence, not eating, while she prays, then we both eat....I love her and respect her and its no skin off my nose if she wants to pray....as to the program steps??? steps 1,2,3 were my most difficult, particularly the 2nd and 3rd ones, but I got around it by using the program as my higher power, then I began to find me within and I could look to my "Christ within" which is my personal part of the universe that belongs to me and is WITHIN me , not outside of me and I could go from there....I get on fine with other Agnostic and Atheists my best friend here in TX is atheist and we get on fine because neither of us are religious we are spiritual and I have met MANY wonderful folks in recovery who are either questioners like me (Agnostic where I claim neither faith NOR disbelief in God-Jesus) the door is open to me...I would love to see the evidence that there is a loving, helping, involved in my life , God, but I don't see it...thats not to say that there are not positive entities in the universe, I truly believe in good energy vs bad energy and its my daily job to accentuate the positive and minimize the negative, so this is how i worked around steps 2 and 3....I DO believe i can tap into the universal positive energy.....I did come to believe that If I keep putting out good /loving energy, it will,eventually come back to me.....and the step 3?? turning my life and my will over to something outside of me???? NOT a chance....i had to "surrender" to someone elses will as a child and it damned near killed me....so the step 3 thingy, I work it by NOT trying to control the UNcontrollable....thats it....walking away or stepping back or asking someone to help me.....or just letting the energy sort itself out......step 3 , to me, is not fighting the karma but going under it, or around it, or over it, shifting my spiritual gears to find solution, but giving it NON-resistance...that is my step 3...JUST saying
Bo said
Jul 20, 2017
Here in NJ, I have heard the Lord's Prayer at some of the meetings I attend. Not a majority, but some. Perhaps 20%. I've heard the Lord's Prayer at other meetings I've attended while traveling. However, I have never heard any other religious prayer at any al-anon meeting ever. I mean no offense using the words religious prayer, because as I said, when done in an al-anon meeting, I've been told that it is not being recited as a religious prayer, but within the confines of the al-anon meeting, program, etc. To each their own.
Aline said
Jul 20, 2017
My experience: I accepted that the word "God" was used often in Alanon literature, steps etc. This is a simple fact. In time I became comfortable with the use of this word (I wasn't at first) all the while keeping in mind the mention in step 3 "god as we understood him". I have my own, rather vague and still changing, definition(s) of this word, and as step 3 shows, that is completely OK in Alanon. I rmember at first I couldn't even imagine myself working the steps, largely because of the God issue/word, so I didn't take them yet, just went to the meetings and read some literature. In time, I got over this blocking stone, this issue sort of resolved itself for me. I suggest to be gentle to yourself (something I remind myself a lot, too!). I really hope you find a way for the program to work for you, because it really is worth it!
shrnp said
Jul 20, 2017
You can always look up the history of the 12 steps. They have been around for years when hospitals were run by religious not for profit organizations. Since that time they have been adopted by many other groups.
mamalioness said
Jul 20, 2017
I found on line a great thing about 12 steps for Agnostics like me and also 12 steps for atheists.....I never could be comfortable with a male gender ANY higher power....there are 2 sexes here..so why does Creator or HP need a gender...for those of us who suffered child abuse by a male family member, the word "God" and "his will' makes me want to vomit, so I had to really "reshape" the program that would be comfortable for me.....
Enigmatic said
Jul 20, 2017
When I first arrived at AlAnon, my life was unmanageable because I was trying to change people, places and things over which I had no control, thinking it would bring me comfort and happiness. AlAnon is helping me see the need to look within myself to find and address the perceptions, feelings, and behavior that is the root cause of my discomfort.
I joined the many thousands who made the choice to try a different way, to trust in the proven wisdom of the AlAnon program and find the peace that I was unable to uncover with my own best thinking. I worked to stop trying to change other things to fit what I thought 'should' be, and became willing to try things that were at first uncomfortable, but were recommended.
AlAnon's Steps, Traditions, and Concepts are adopted from AA, thoroughly and meticulously sculpted with care and intent to allow the widest range of individuals but deliver the biggest recovery impact. These served as the guidance and foundation for the literature used in AlAnon meetings. In describing the importance of the content of this material, Paths to Recovery in AlAnon provided some helpful insight when considering Tradition Four:
"Al-Anon adapted [the Twelve Steps, Traditions, and Concepts from AA. These legacies] create our paths to recovery and provide the framework for Al-Anon worldwide. The World Service Conference has given them special status; they cannot be easily changed. A single word change in any of the three legacies would require a great deal of consideration, discussion and voting of the [WSC] and the vote of three-forths of all AlAnon groups worldwide.
Although our "unenforceable" legacies off some flexibility in interpretation, it is important to keep AlAnon's foundation firm. When members or groups take it upon themselves to deviate from these guidelines or not to use them at all, confusion follows that can affect our fellowship as a whole. When anyone, anywhere, attends an AlAnon meeting, it is important that the meeting be based on these well-established principles." Paths p. 164
AlAnon gives incredible room for personal, individual customization, inclusive of the highly religious all the way to the atheistic. Individuals from all walks of life have made AlAnon work for them when they were willing and ready to find the serenity and peace it offers.
I am grateful that I took advantage of the built-in flexibility of the program and made the personal adjustments needed to try the program. The healing, recovery, and peace of AlAnon has changed my life incredibly for the better. Like many things, however, AlAnon, and even recovery itself, is a choice. There are other options available for those who find AlAnon too restrictive.
mamalioness said
Jul 20, 2017
Hey Paul, i saw that too...that Al-Anon had room for customizing...like I could shape the first 3 steps to fit my doubting in any outside higher power, and I had REAL problems with the "surrender my life and my will over to HIS will" or words to that affect...Had the program "held me" to that and that only, I would have walked....but as you so beautifully said about customization,yea...that is what kept me in the game....I saw strict, bible reading religious folks down to Atheists and I am the "neighbor" of the atheist in that I just don't buy into anything involved in my daily life but ME and what part of the universe is within ME....I am a "show me" type person...words mean nothing..I want to see the evidence...hence my labelling myself as Agnostic, but the program was OK, in that there are secular steps for folks like me...I saw on line even, 12 steps for Agnostics and Atheists, Buddhists, even, I think...so that shows me that we all can prosper here with a little "tweaking" here adn there......step 11 is my getting quiet and getting centered with my higher self......someone on here mentioned nature and I can resonate with that.....the PROGRAM was and is still to a degree, my higher power, if I really really want to be brutally honest, I think of the program steps and slogans (tweaked) to be in a big way my higher power and it has worked.....Al-anon has changed me too...helped me be a better person...I still get the wild emotions of anger, fear, when crap storms just keep beatingme down, but I slog on with the program and I at least have a "how to handle the S*&& storms of life, 101 handbook which is the steps and slogans" nice post, Paul.....Loved reading it....
DavidG said
Jul 20, 2017
It's weird. I read page 164 too, today, and I bookmarked it. Thanks Paul...
Haven't followed this thread in detail... we all suffer; directly or indirectly from a serious life threatening illness.
It does not come, swiftly, from out of the trees, to end our pain and suffering- not usually. It is mostly slow and insidious.
So the measures we take- have to be fair, and true- at the very least the way we see things. I do believe that we have to
honour this- in ourselves, and in each one of us. A searching and fearless moral inventory- of ourselves... but given that-
I reinvented a word to express my feeling on this- levity.... When I enter the room I expect to see both laughter, and tears-
in about equal measure. What this has to do with our belief system, or otherwise, is our own business. We can share this,
as much as we like- steps 2 and three, and also 11... so long as it remains our own personal business.
What we all share together surpasses all understanding. ...
thanks for the topic, Uncre... ...
uncreativename said
Jul 21, 2017
Thanks everyone. I won't be commenting further on this thread. In fact, I do not expect to change the entire al anon organization. Al anon won't be changing. That was never my goal. As I said, I attended a meeting where it was voted to see what we could do about more inclusive language. I do want to work the steps. Hence posting here, hence trying to go to the meetings. I do not believe in the concept of god. I am not spiritual. In fact, it's taken a long time for me to feel comfortable discussing this topic with anyone at all. I don't plan on reverting back to a version of myself that couldn't discuss this aspect of my life if need be and I see a need now. I sincerely thank all who chimed in trying to help. I will continue at the meeting I'm going to and see if things keep going in a positive direction because the people there are open to accepting the things I had to say on this topic at face value. I think it would be helpful to think about some of the things that have been said here and ask yourself, "If I were looking for help in working on a problem I had and all the available material in the program had language and concepts that spoke about god not existing or spoke about needing to give up spirituality and I had to read these things out loud as fact, would I be comfortable playing along and denouncing my religion or spirituality publicly?" When thinking about it this way, maybe you can see what I've been saying. I doubt you'd be open to denouncing your faith and spitiruality for the sake of a recovery program. No matter what al anon says about religion and flexibility or taking what you want and leaving the rest in their meetings, the Lord's Prayer will never not be religious. The word god can never not be religious, as god is the very premise of all religions, god IS religion. And if the word god is open to such vast interpretation that it doesn't actually mean anything in particular, why focus so much on telling someone to accept it rather than just answering whether anyone has experience with a meeting replacing the word god with a different word when the steps are read at meetings? If it has no specific meaning, why is it so important that it stay? I hope that in the future, it can be more common for meetings to consider this angle so atheists can attend without fear. If you feel that exploring the option of inclusive language in a meeting is taking things too far or means that I somehow need to be humbled, that is very unfortunate. My decision to become an atheist is something that involved a lot of thought and consideration and was not a decision I made lightly. As some of you describe a journey to spirituality, my own journey lead me here. Both journeys are valid experiences. Everyone in need of help deserves to be included in a program that claims not to be religious. How would you feel if I implied as some of the comments here did that you had to soften up your belief in god or spirituality or even consider that there may not be a god to work the steps and if you were serious, that's what you'd do? I'm pretty sure you'd tell me that giving up your spirituality or faith was not an option. You might even just walk away. I obviously see the value in the program as I have been trying to make it work for me for 6 years now. I understand that at this time, al anon is accepted as the best help for people affected by alcoholism. It costs literally nothing to make others seeking help feel as welcomed as you are. Again, thanks to everyone who tried to help it means a lot to me. I wish you all peace and the best in your recovery.
Enigmatic said
Jul 21, 2017
AlAnon did not ask me to denounce anything at all. It did ask me to look at changing myself rather than ask, expect, wait for others to change to my liking in the belief that is what I needed before I could be happy. AlAnon suggests that my happiness and comfortability is not dependent on what is happening outside of me, it is a product of the perceptions, feelings and beliefs within.
Words are nothing more than constructs, a collection of written symbols or sounds that, on their own, have no absolute meaning in any culture. It takes mutual agreement between encoder and decoder to arrive at an agreed upon definition. The meaning of words differs across individuals, groups, cultures, among whom they often come to represent something completely different, even opposite than originally intended.
If everything is changed for me so I can avoid feeling fear, I may avoid feeling fear in a specific instance but I never learn to address the perceptions and feelings inside that are the actual cause of my fear. I was motivated by fear in my efforts to get my qualifier to change in an attempt to rid myself of fear. AlAnon suggested that I needed to make healthy changes within myself rather than try to change the things outside.
Accepting that and powerlessness over other people, places and things was the beginning of my recovery. Best wishes on your journey
2HP said
Jul 21, 2017
Our traditional closing says, "If you keep an open mind, you will find help."
I hear it meeting after meeting and year after year. and know I can take that recovery promise as far as I desire.
Al-anon lists Three Obstacles to Success and the first is discussions of religion. Should this include all belief systems, including atheism?? It slips out because we are not a perfect fellowship. we all want to be "right."
I am grateful for this thread because it helps me realize what I was like before I crawled into the rooms... the imperfections of others combined with my sensitivities would add fire to an already burning anger within me. Today when someone shares on their source of hope and light and joy... I feel sparkly, every part of me smiling. I am not the same person who crawled in. and this is nothing short of a miracle.
From wherever it comes, I do not care. I applaud the power to transform unmanageable lives into peaceful lives. I humbly open my heart to receive more.
(((hugs))) to all
Three Obstacles to Success in Al-Anon from Alcoholism, the Family Disease P-4
1. Discussions of Religion 2. Gossip 3. Dominance
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 21st of July 2017 12:34:22 PM
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of July 2017 07:55:37 AM
Yes, I do understand your points. I would never expect anything to be tailored to all my specific needs. I also realize that I must find my own way around some of these steps that mention god. However, discussing this when you are standing in front of a room full of people you do not know is to me anxiety provoking. I have had bad experiences in my life when it was learned I was an atheist. My beliefs are not something I speak about really to anyone I don't know. If you haven't had experiences like this, count yourself lucky. For me, standing up and speaking my truth in front of a room full of strangers when it isn't a very popular stance and has the potential to make some people very angry when my truth is different from theirs feels a bit like standing in front of a firing squad.
The meeting I attended had discussed this topic before, but hadn't gone too deeply into it. When the reading at the last meeting specifically mentioned atheism (in a light that involved the narrator being better able to work the steps by stepping away from atheism), a discussion ensued about how the wording of god in the steps, etc may be keeping some people away. That's what has been happening to me. I am happy that I found a group open minded enough to even consider the possibility of looking at the wording.
-- Edited by uncreativename on Thursday 20th of July 2017 01:31:18 PM
When I first arrived at AlAnon, my life was unmanageable because I was trying to change people, places and things over which I had no control, thinking it would bring me comfort and happiness. AlAnon is helping me see the need to look within myself to find and address the perceptions, feelings, and behavior that is the root cause of my discomfort.
I joined the many thousands who made the choice to try a different way, to trust in the proven wisdom of the AlAnon program and find the peace that I was unable to uncover with my own best thinking. I worked to stop trying to change other things to fit what I thought 'should' be, and became willing to try things that were at first uncomfortable, but were recommended.
AlAnon's Steps, Traditions, and Concepts are adopted from AA, thoroughly and meticulously sculpted with care and intent to allow the widest range of individuals but deliver the biggest recovery impact. These served as the guidance and foundation for the literature used in AlAnon meetings. In describing the importance of the content of this material, Paths to Recovery in AlAnon provided some helpful insight when considering Tradition Four:
"Al-Anon adapted [the Twelve Steps, Traditions, and Concepts from AA. These legacies] create our paths to recovery and provide the framework for Al-Anon worldwide. The World Service Conference has given them special status; they cannot be easily changed. A single word change in any of the three legacies would require a great deal of consideration, discussion and voting of the [WSC] and the vote of three-forths of all AlAnon groups worldwide.
Although our "unenforceable" legacies off some flexibility in interpretation, it is important to keep AlAnon's foundation firm. When members or groups take it upon themselves to deviate from these guidelines or not to use them at all, confusion follows that can affect our fellowship as a whole. When anyone, anywhere, attends an AlAnon meeting, it is important that the meeting be based on these well-established principles." Paths p. 164
AlAnon gives incredible room for personal, individual customization, inclusive of the highly religious all the way to the atheistic. Individuals from all walks of life have made AlAnon work for them when they were willing and ready to find the serenity and peace it offers.
I am grateful that I took advantage of the built-in flexibility of the program and made the personal adjustments needed to try the program. The healing, recovery, and peace of AlAnon has changed my life incredibly for the better. Like many things, however, AlAnon, and even recovery itself, is a choice. There are other options available for those who find AlAnon too restrictive.
Hey Paul, i saw that too...that Al-Anon had room for customizing...like I could shape the first 3 steps to fit my doubting in any outside higher power, and I had REAL problems with the "surrender my life and my will over to HIS will" or words to that affect...Had the program "held me" to that and that only, I would have walked....but as you so beautifully said about customization,yea...that is what kept me in the game....I saw strict, bible reading religious folks down to Atheists and I am the "neighbor" of the atheist in that I just don't buy into anything involved in my daily life but ME and what part of the universe is within ME....I am a "show me" type person...words mean nothing..I want to see the evidence...hence my labelling myself as Agnostic, but the program was OK, in that there are secular steps for folks like me...I saw on line even, 12 steps for Agnostics and Atheists, Buddhists, even, I think...so that shows me that we all can prosper here with a little "tweaking" here adn there......step 11 is my getting quiet and getting centered with my higher self......someone on here mentioned nature and I can resonate with that.....the PROGRAM was and is still to a degree, my higher power, if I really really want to be brutally honest, I think of the program steps and slogans (tweaked) to be in a big way my higher power and it has worked.....Al-anon has changed me too...helped me be a better person...I still get the wild emotions of anger, fear, when crap storms just keep beatingme down, but I slog on with the program and I at least have a "how to handle the S*&& storms of life, 101 handbook which is the steps and slogans" nice post, Paul.....Loved reading it....
It's weird. I read page 164 too, today, and I bookmarked it.
Thanks Paul...
Haven't followed this thread in detail... we all suffer; directly or indirectly from a serious life threatening illness.
It does not come, swiftly, from out of the trees, to end our pain and suffering- not usually. It is mostly slow and insidious.
So the measures we take- have to be fair, and true- at the very least the way we see things. I do believe that we have to
honour this- in ourselves, and in each one of us. A searching and fearless moral inventory- of ourselves... but given that-
I reinvented a word to express my feeling on this- levity.... When I enter the room I expect to see both laughter, and tears-
in about equal measure. What this has to do with our belief system, or otherwise, is our own business. We can share this,
as much as we like- steps 2 and three, and also 11... so long as it remains our own personal business.
What we all share together surpasses all understanding.
...
thanks for the topic, Uncre...
...
Words are nothing more than constructs, a collection of written symbols or sounds that, on their own, have no absolute meaning in any culture. It takes mutual agreement between encoder and decoder to arrive at an agreed upon definition. The meaning of words differs across individuals, groups, cultures, among whom they often come to represent something completely different, even opposite than originally intended.
If everything is changed for me so I can avoid feeling fear, I may avoid feeling fear in a specific instance but I never learn to address the perceptions and feelings inside that are the actual cause of my fear. I was motivated by fear in my efforts to get my qualifier to change in an attempt to rid myself of fear. AlAnon suggested that I needed to make healthy changes within myself rather than try to change the things outside.
Accepting that and powerlessness over other people, places and things was the beginning of my recovery. Best wishes on your journey
Our traditional closing says, "If you keep an open mind, you will find help."
I hear it meeting after meeting and year after year. and know I can take that recovery promise as far as I desire.
Al-anon lists Three Obstacles to Success and the first is discussions of religion. Should this include all belief systems, including atheism?? It slips out because we are not a perfect fellowship. we all want to be "right."
I am grateful for this thread because it helps me realize what I was like before I crawled into the rooms... the imperfections of others combined with my sensitivities would add fire to an already burning anger within me. Today when someone shares on their source of hope and light and joy... I feel sparkly, every part of me smiling. I am not the same person who crawled in. and this is nothing short of a miracle.
From wherever it comes, I do not care. I applaud the power to transform unmanageable lives into peaceful lives. I humbly open my heart to receive more.
(((hugs))) to all
Three Obstacles to Success in Al-Anon
from Alcoholism, the Family Disease P-4
1. Discussions of Religion
2. Gossip
3. Dominance
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 21st of July 2017 12:34:22 PM
-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 22nd of July 2017 07:55:37 AM